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goody153
44020 Posts
On August 21 2018 13:41 DucK- wrote: Can only blame the group stage chokes... Went from almost obliterating liquid and PPD even saying he got worried at start as they looked the team that would win TI Into whatever mess they were at the end. Welp it's kinda there was never a doubt in my mind when it came what they would end up in TI I'll still follow EEs team tho | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
First few minutes of that time were blown because PLD died when dewarding and after that Abed got caught being way too forward next to Serenity's ancients despite him just seeing multiple Serenity players killing PLD close to him (and got reapered for extra respawn time) and DJ died trying to save him. After that Fnatic tried to force a fight next to Serenity's T1 which they took really badly, got no spells off properly and got wiped. I think at that time they easily could have won the fight if they just had taken it better. Then they would have got 2 free towers, Ursa would have soon had his BKB, etc. Not to mention that Gyro only got his BKB and Necro got his Lotus Orb around that time because of those 3 kills Fnatic gave away earlier. Had Fnatic not given those up, they would have been able to take a fight with aegis without Serenity having those items. Instead Serenity got pretty far ahead and the game got really hard to play for Fnatic. Well it'll be interesting to see what happens with the players. You never really know with players that switch regions whether they want to do it longer term or no. I like PLD but not sure if him and EE on the same team is for the best anymore. If EE is going to stay as captain I'd probably prefer him to move to 5 and for them to recruit a carry. From the perspective of Fnatic they probably want to keep Abed and DJ around considering they've been a SEA team for a long time and those 2 are some of the best in the region. I assume they will also consider their options and whether they can recruit some other captain for example, but that's always easier said than done. Universe probably would prefer to play in NA but it's unclear whether there will be any good openings for him | ||
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Sapaio
Denmark2037 Posts
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InFiNitY[pG]
Germany3467 Posts
On August 21 2018 19:19 Sapaio wrote: I was shocked when they interviewed the coach (aui) before the match and he said they drafted the strongest team in the meta(in Fnatics view after scrims before TI), and when asked about Serenity's draft he couldn't remember it, because only his teams draft did. With that kind of attitude and approach to Dota you deserve to loss, there isn't one strongest team in Dota as it depends on what you face up against. There is a reason there are over 100 heroes. I agree. It was shocking to me that their approach to a bo1 was: let's get the heroes that we used in scrims. I unterstand that picking comfort heroes is nice, but to completely neglect the meta or your opponent 's draft is borderline suicidal to me. Aui couldn't even recall Serenity's draft at all. | ||
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plasmidghost
Belgium16168 Posts
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SeethingErmine
United States25 Posts
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spudde123
4814 Posts
Phoenix and Mirana specifically are meta heroes that Fnatic wasn't picking in the start of the event, so to say they are ignoring the meta is also a bit of a stretch. In general I think people downplay the draft too much as if it was unplayable. Fnatic could easily have won that game imo despite the early game going worse than probably expected with Fnatic gifting their courier. They just didn't manage to use their aegis timing at all, and instead it went badly enough that Serenity got way ahead. And it wasn't because their Phoenix was countered or whatever, they just got caught badly out of position first and the first 2-3 minutes of the aegis went away. Then they tried to force a fight and took it really badly. Ursa's initiation didn't go according to plan, Bane, Mirana and Visage didn't get any disables off and instead clumped up to the calldown and Tiny combo. Like if you watch the fight, it ends up being a complete disaster but if for example PLD had walked a few steps to the left instead of up he could have just disabled the Lina who killed the egg alone, and it could have been almost a wipe in Fnatic's favor. And of course there's many other things they could have done better so not trying to point a finger at him but it's just an example of how they could have easily taken a significant advantage with even slightly better execution. There are certain moments in the game when you are strong and you have to be able to capitalize if you want to win, and they just screwed it up. The draft then ends up looking far worse because Fnatic missed their strong point completely. Even Phoenix looks very different as a hero if instead of getting caught out Fnatic stays composed, takes a proper fight with the aegis, gets a few towers, etc. At that point Ursa and Visage are getting items and the Phoenix can serve as a backline sustain hero to them instead of having to fly in and try an optimistic ult because of them being behind. | ||
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SeethingErmine
United States25 Posts
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goody153
44020 Posts
On August 21 2018 19:19 Sapaio wrote: I was shocked when they interviewed the coach (aui) before the match and he said they drafted the strongest team in the meta(in Fnatics view after scrims before TI), and when asked about Serenity's draft he couldn't remember it, because only his teams draft did. With that kind of attitude and approach to Dota you deserve to loss, there isn't one strongest team in Dota as it depends on what you face up against. There is a reason there are over 100 heroes. Yeah this kinda urked me as well. I do not think they had this mentality before that match as their drafts in the group stages especially the earlier ones looked like they picked natural counters to the enemy draft. And they even had some drafts that were literally meant to dismantle the enemy draft. And they did that against serenity like they already lost hope before the match. They just picked heroes they're confident with like some ranked match. On August 22 2018 11:07 SeethingErmine wrote: Necro was something the analysts mentioned, everyone was first phase banning it against them or first picking it themselves if not banned. Optic banned it first each game in their LB match, for example. Sure Fnatic still could have won with the draft, but they gave Serenity every chance to play their best, needlessly. They felt like they're playing to lose tbh. Bah incredibly disappointing. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On August 22 2018 11:07 SeethingErmine wrote: Necro was something the analysts mentioned, everyone was first phase banning it against them or first picking it themselves if not banned. Optic banned it first each game in their LB match, for example. Sure Fnatic still could have won with the draft, but they gave Serenity every chance to play their best, needlessly. Necro has been picked or banned in every single one of Optic's games at TI and I wouldn't say they are known for it either. Seems to me that it's just a hero that pretty much all teams prioritize relatively highly, and Optic themselves often don't want to play against it and have 1st banned it many times. Fnatic on the other hand haven't been 1st banning Necro that much and the two times they played against early Necro picks in the groups they won pretty easily. They don't seem as scared of the hero as some other teams are. Of course one can argue that Fnatic should have picked different things. But it's hard to know from the outside how they feel about things because we don't know how much they've won or lost with certain things in scrims for example. I just disagree with the narrative some people are pulling from Aui's interview that Fnatic was ignoring their opponent when clearly their bans were directly targeted to Serenity. And also I disagree with really blaming the draft when they had the tools to win and they screwed up so many things in the actual game. Play wise I think it was one of their worst games of the tournament. | ||
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nuketurnal2
62 Posts
On August 22 2018 02:23 spudde123 wrote: Not sure where this "Serenity is known for Necro" comes from given that they played Necro 1 time in groups. Most teams in the tournament have been picking Necro so it's not like it's a surprise to see it picked. Also I think people interpret the Aui interview a bit wrongly. Fnatic can make reasonable predictions about what Serenity might go for in the first phase and their plan is likely built based on that. It seems fine to me to scrim some of those heroes you might pick the day before. You can see this preparation for example in the PL 1st ban. Serenity showed in groups 4 times that they aren't afraid of 1st phasing that hero, and if Fnatic wants to open with Mirana+Bane (and is even considering Phoenix to give good teamfight) it seems like a fine approach. Fnatic also 1st banned Nyx, which is something Serenity has liked to play. Phoenix and Mirana specifically are meta heroes that Fnatic wasn't picking in the start of the event, so to say they are ignoring the meta is also a bit of a stretch. In general I think people downplay the draft too much as if it was unplayable. Fnatic could easily have won that game imo despite the early game going worse than probably expected with Fnatic gifting their courier. They just didn't manage to use their aegis timing at all, and instead it went badly enough that Serenity got way ahead. And it wasn't because their Phoenix was countered or whatever, they just got caught badly out of position first and the first 2-3 minutes of the aegis went away. Then they tried to force a fight and took it really badly. Ursa's initiation didn't go according to plan, Bane, Mirana and Visage didn't get any disables off and instead clumped up to the calldown and Tiny combo. Like if you watch the fight, it ends up being a complete disaster but if for example PLD had walked a few steps to the left instead of up he could have just disabled the Lina who killed the egg alone, and it could have been almost a wipe in Fnatic's favor. And of course there's many other things they could have done better so not trying to point a finger at him but it's just an example of how they could have easily taken a significant advantage with even slightly better execution. There are certain moments in the game when you are strong and you have to be able to capitalize if you want to win, and they just screwed it up. The draft then ends up looking far worse because Fnatic missed their strong point completely. Even Phoenix looks very different as a hero if instead of getting caught out Fnatic stays composed, takes a proper fight with the aegis, gets a few towers, etc. At that point Ursa and Visage are getting items and the Phoenix can serve as a backline sustain hero to them instead of having to fly in and try an optimistic ult because of them being behind. i second this | ||
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uthgard
2098 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
ie. no halberd usage from phoenix on that major fight @mid, or abed not blocking the max-fiery soul lina pumping at the egg by using familiars. it just goes to show how chaotic that game was and how it did not work in their favour. often you see difficult execution in high pressure games, presumably because that's what they feel it will take to win. this loss was on each one of them individually and that is what skill is all about: managing ingame expectations and then capitalizing on mistakes to the maximum. i feel they drafted knowing their opponents were full of holes. in that game, so were they. DJ did not egg on his phoenix expecting to die and having completed his job in doing so. that much is obvious. he used his ultimate thinking it was good when it was not. he wasn't given a large margin of error, it was a quite small one in order for things to work out as the game progressed. if you were to give both sides the chance to play that game again, quite certain fnatic wins 9/10 times with tighter play than they showed that day, i think DJ, EE, and PLD are the most disappointed in their play, in that order. | ||
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nuketurnal2
62 Posts
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korendir
Singapore259 Posts
On October 01 2018 21:36 nuketurnal2 wrote: no Fnatic in ESL Hamburg qualifier? they might possibly be only targeting DPC tournaments? Not sure though | ||
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nuketurnal2
62 Posts
On October 04 2018 00:11 korendir wrote: they might possibly be only targeting DPC tournaments? Not sure though hmmm they are joining a non DPC tournament later though - PVP Championships | ||
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Julmust
Sweden4867 Posts
+ Moon, 23savage - Abed, DuBu Super excited to see what 23savage can do but not sure if the Moon pickup is an upgrade or not. | ||
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DropBear
Australia4291 Posts
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Sapaio
Denmark2037 Posts
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Archeon
3251 Posts
Moon should help stabilizing them a bit, which can only be a good thing for them. The team is stacked with playmakers anyways. | ||
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