current pl is quite a differnt flavor of cancer than old pl / naga, and probably still feels fresh to most specs

c9 still occasionally picks naga but it rarely works out

NubbleST

United States86 Posts

April 14 2015 16:03 GMT

#26502

It's almost like variety is interesting

Plansix

United States60190 Posts

April 14 2015 16:09 GMT

#26503

On April 15 2015 01:03 NubbleST wrote:
It's almost like variety is interesting

Exactly this. There isn't anything boring about any of the heroes in Dota 2. The only thing that sucks is seeing them every game.

BluemoonSC

SoCal8933 Posts

April 14 2015 16:10 GMT

#26504

but how do you balance the entire game so that you can get a really diverse variety of heroes where everything is picked and many combinations work with the mechanics introduced and taken away from the game.

very difficult.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 14 2015 16:23 GMT

#26505

I've said this before, but that's pretty much impossible. Even if a "perfect version" existed, the desire to simplify and reduce things to something understandable would lead players to copy what the best teams are doing, creating the illusion that what they were doing is the strongest in that version, even if it actually wasn't.

The only time we have "diversity" is during the first few months of a patch where nobody actually has any idea what they're doing so everyone is just trying random shit. That invariably ends when you have a major tournament that's big enough for everyone to pull out all their secret strats so that by the end we know which one was the best.

Sn0_Man

Tebellong44238 Posts

April 14 2015 16:25 GMT

#26506

I'll say that drafting this patch is pretty diverse barring troll/sniper and of course wisp/bat issues. But pubs are actually jsut so awful troll's at like 85% winrate in my games. Earthspirit still exists, etc.

I just like constant patches, although I do understand why there are issues with that.

Plansix

United States60190 Posts

April 14 2015 16:28 GMT

#26507

As long as they keep actively patching and trying to improve the game, more heroes will be viable. This patch had a pretty good run of viable heroes until troll and jugg became super dominate. If they don't patch often, the game will get stale and people want a reason to come back to dota and keep playing it.

Also when there are a couple really dominate heroes like we have now, the drafting gets really myopic around those heroes. So some heroes might not even need buffs if Troll and jugg are reigned in.

I also think buffing items is more effective than buffing heroes, since anyone can buy any item. But that is just me.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 14 2015 16:30 GMT

#26508

On April 15 2015 01:28 Plansix wrote:
This patch had a pretty good run of viable heroes until troll and jugg became super dominate.

That's not diversity because the game promotes it--that's diversity because people don't know what the fuck they're doing so people try everything until the patch settles down.

Literally every version goes through that phase in the first 1-2 months.

Sn0_Man

Tebellong44238 Posts

April 14 2015 16:32 GMT

#26509

which is fine tbh

people having close games with new (to the meta) heroes because nobody's quite sure exactly how the hero works is better entertainment than people having close games with the same old heroes that are already well figured out.

as in, i don't see whats wrong with people almost constantly having no clue what's best.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 14 2015 16:33 GMT

#26510

IDK, I don't think patching the game at a rate where people are in a perpetual state of not knowing what they're doing just so people keep trying random shit is good either.

On April 15 2015 01:32 Sn0_Man wrote:
people having close games with new (to the meta) heroes because nobody's quite sure exactly how the hero works is better entertainment than people having close games with the same old heroes that are already well figured out.

I mean the problem is that half the time the games aren't close because one team understands the hero they picked, and the other doesn't so they either lose in the draft or lose in the first 5 minutes.

Sn0_Man

Tebellong44238 Posts

April 14 2015 16:33 GMT

#26511

alright we r having edit fights

Crusnik

United States5378 Posts

April 14 2015 16:35 GMT

#26512

Edit fights best fights

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 14 2015 16:38 GMT

#26513

The other thing is that if you patch faster than the rate at which people figure out a version, it's really easy to overbuff or overnerf things because when people don't know what's good in a new version, a lot of people will gravitate towards what was good in the previous version, so it'll give the appearance that something is still better than it actually is, or that your last round of buffs didn't accomplish anything.

Plansix

United States60190 Posts

April 14 2015 16:39 GMT

#26514

I don't think letting a game sit in a stale sat for long periods of time does it any favors either. Around this time of year everyone was pretty tired of the patch and what it had to offer. And the circle of patch life has continued to this year. I don't think the teams really do well when the drafting pool is so limited.

Edit fight: Yango, have the teams figured out this patch, in your opinion?

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 14 2015 16:41 GMT

#26515

So instead we got a patch 2-3 months before TI4, had a new "best" strategy emerge at TI4, and had spectators leave the event saltier than if the event was played on a "stale" version.

On April 15 2015 01:39 Plansix wrote:
Edit fight: Yango, have the teams figured out this patch, in your opinion?

It's hard to say. I'm not Puppey, so it's not like I can claim to have fundamental knowledge about how this version plays that teams don't have. With the way teams have drafted, it seems like some things have settled down, but at the same times, some teams still seem to be in a bit of limbo on how to evaluate the old "meta" heroes like Jugg--not everyone seems to value that hero the same.

goody153

44290 Posts

April 14 2015 16:44 GMT

#26516

best patch was that luna patch 6.81 for me.. every team seems like to have been playing different playstyle's at that time (before you know the tinker/dp/razor spam happened)

On April 15 2015 01:02 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:

Show nested quote +

current pl is quite a differnt flavor of cancer than old pl / naga, and probably still feels fresh to most specs

c9 still occasionally picks naga but it rarely works out

and secret too !

just kdding puppey doesn't like 4p1

CorsairHero

Canada9491 Posts

April 14 2015 16:50 GMT

#26517

its ok guys mek got nerfed
hopefully there wont be a repeat of ti4 finals ^^

Plansix

United States60190 Posts

April 14 2015 16:51 GMT

#26518

I think if you wait to long to patch, you run the risk of the Broodlord/infestor issue, where the community is totally sick of a style of play. And the perception that it is the best and only way to play is more important than if that is fact. It just brings the community and pro-players down.

I get the idea of not wanting an unstable mess for TI4, but not patching isn't going to prevent that. If some team figures out a way to deal with troll/jugg/stats-dota and break it out during the event, it could be just as unstable.

On April 15 2015 01:50 CorsairHero wrote:
its ok guys mek got nerfed
hopefully there wont be a repeat of ti4 finals ^^

Biggest overnerf of this patch. There are like huge team fight changing ults that cost less mana than that thing. Bums me out. I mess early mek on heroes.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 14 2015 16:54 GMT

#26519

I mean, people got the idea that "fastpush/deathball" was the only way to play 6.81 after TI4 even though that's not how everyone was playing that version up until TI4 happened.

On April 15 2015 01:51 Plansix wrote:
I get the idea of not wanting an unstable mess for TI4, but not patching isn't going to prevent that. If some team figures out a way to deal with troll/jugg/stats-dota and break it out during the event, it could be just as unstable.

That's pretty much what the story of TI2 was (Na'Vi figured out how to draft against Chinese Naga first-pick) and I'm pretty sure people thought that was better than either TI3 or TI4.