EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 858
| Forum Index > Dota 2 General |
IRC chatter should remain in IRC - http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=tl.dota2 Posts that relate to topics with their own thread, such as in News, Tournaments or Strategy should go in those threads. | ||
|
NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
| ||
|
SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On August 19 2012 09:26 NB wrote: so does fucking american football... and baseball... and cricket.... yeahhhhhhhh............. Sorry, but no, that's the probally the biggest issue with ESPORTS vs regular sports. It's pretty easy to understand that in football you simply have to kick the ball into the goal, or the basic rules in tennis, volleyball, whathever. I've never played american football in my life, or anything similar to it, and it was still fairly easy to understand the basics. Of course you won't be able to undertand tactics on more advanced stuff, but you don't really need to. And that's probally one of the most complicated sports out there. Just look at the Olympics, how many people watch sports they never played or never even heard off, but undertand them just fine. Show SC2 to someone that doesn't undertand what an RTS is and they won't have a clue on what's going on. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
not the case with Dota, LoL or BW/SC2. Counterstrike and Quake are a tad easier to jump into but are also quite complicated. | ||
|
SilverStar
Sweden18511 Posts
On August 19 2012 08:11 GumBa wrote: So I am downloading Dota right now and I quite enjoyed the original is Dota 2 as good? And how is the pro scene is it good e.g. lots of tournaments stable scene e.t.c ? Very active scene. If you want to get into watching good games check: http://gosugamers.net/dota2/gosubet I can recommend watching WhA (a german team) play vs Wolves tomorrow around 13:15 CEST. Should be good. For a bigger picture: http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Tournaments | ||
|
Nilrem
United States3684 Posts
With games like baseball, football (cricket is different though), you do not need to know about it for it to be exciting. Well, you do not need to know anything beyond that of, points are good, less points is bad... The intimate knowledge of the types of plays, the players, etc. is not needed. But E-sports, there is the tendency of needing to know what X and Y does, otherwise it comes off as a convoluted mess. Like, in Sc2 you have a large array of units to even understand. Than, for Dota 2, you need to be able to discern to some degree what abilities are what so you can understand X happened by Y person during the fight. I remember watching dota for the first time and thinking how chaotic it really was. It never seemed fun and felt like a waste of time. But than I started playing dota a lot and once you have an idea of what goes on, it is far more entertaining. *Should point out I use E-sport vaguely, and the view probably and most liekly does not encompass every single E-sport game. | ||
|
PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On August 19 2012 09:36 Kipsate wrote: I understood every sport at the Olympics , Judo was the only one I didn't understand fully(due to the point system), but I saw 2 guys(or girls) duking it out and with some commentary I was fine not the case with Dota, LoL or BW/SC2. Counterstrike and Quake are a tad easier to jump into but are also quite complicated. actually on a rudimentary level with the team flag system implemented in dota 2 it's pretty easy to see whats going on when the observer uses the camera well. tobi's action commentary is good, but his camera work is pretty poor if he has a camera guy doing stuff for him he'd be a lot better. ummm pretty much it's easy to see one team killing another as good for the killing team it's easy to see victories in team fights, it's easy to see that losing base = bad. the more complicated things are fixed a bit by raw numbers being shown. like last hits, ect ect. one thing i'd love to be added into dota casts would be some stats. like "fear has been averaging X last hits since beginning EG's bootcamp this summer, compared to his Y before" that kind of stuff is awesome to me. | ||
|
NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
On August 19 2012 09:34 SKC wrote: Sorry, but no, that's the probally the biggest issue with ESPORTS vs regular sports. It's pretty easy to understand that in football you simply have to kick the ball into the goal, or the basic rules in tennis, volleyball, whathever. I've never played american football in my life, or anything similar to it, and it was still fairly easy to understand the basics. Of course you won't be able to undertand tactics on more advanced stuff, but you don't really need to. And that's probally one of the most complicated sports out there. Just look at the Olympics, how many people watch sports they never played or never even heard off, but undertand them just fine. Show SC2 to someone that doesn't undertand what an RTS is and they won't have a clue on what's going on. i dont think we are talking about the same football.... The fact that the dominating audience of real sport is getting old and out dated as the new generation growing up under the influential of computing and internet would make something like computer games much more acceptable. Think about it this way: 100 years ago if you ask people if they ever dream of landing on the moon, you must be a lunatic while now, traveling to space is commercially available. As the society growing throw time, a lot of revolution will change the way we look at "modern" culture and right now is the period of computing technology over taking traditional physical activities. Have you ever wonder why your parents or your grand parents want you to do sports? In my case its simply bc my dad fought in a war and the process of him growing up as a person is full with the definition of "dominant physically = dominant in society". Things have changed for the past 50 years or even just for the past decade. Instead of physical health, the needs for mental health is now raised as almost equal since the war period is now over. In a society, you are now more likely to be judged by your "intelligent" proven through out your education more than your physical well-being. Suddenly, real sports is no longer a dominant way to prove that you are 'alpha as fuck' inside a circle of people but money is a bigger variable. If you looks through most of the modern survey, women's criteria for their other half is more likely to be how success he is but how healthy and buff he look. ALL OF THESE ARE CHANGING which will ultimately change what we are looking at the current ways to compete irl. People are now want a tool so that they could show how good they are at 'thinking' rather than 'working out' and video games just happen to fit into the right slot. Fuck i spent too much time on this shit... most of these are what i told the guy who is doing his psychology graduate essay that i knew last year. | ||
|
Nilrem
United States3684 Posts
On August 19 2012 10:06 PrinceXizor wrote: actually on a rudimentary level with the team flag system implemented in dota 2 it's pretty easy to see whats going on when the observer uses the camera well. tobi's action commentary is good, but his camera work is pretty poor if he has a camera guy doing stuff for him he'd be a lot better. ummm pretty much it's easy to see one team killing another as good for the killing team it's easy to see victories in team fights, it's easy to see that losing base = bad. the more complicated things are fixed a bit by raw numbers being shown. like last hits, ect ect. one thing i'd love to be added into dota casts would be some stats. like "fear has been averaging X last hits since beginning EG's bootcamp this summer, compared to his Y before" that kind of stuff is awesome to me. I think stats would be nice, but it is difficult to use properly. Last hits would not be useful for stats because of how situational they are. It is far too situational for it to be looked to as a useful stat to be referenced. I think perhaps hero specific stats would be nice, team stats, even hero/side would be interesting (like enchantress dire versus radiant). They are not needed but would be something to add. I love watching tobi though. He is the type that DotA 2 needs because he has a strong personality and very entertaining. Probably what I could see being of most help is having more commentators like Day[9] that have a strong personality while having incredible analystical abilities that can explain X without it being dull. Finally, as the team wights being easy to see. This is a bit mroe iffy. It is easy to see who is winning at the end of the fight, but if you do not have the basic grasp of the skills, you are not able to understand what is going on. for examplw, Sk's ult going off, or a bkb. When you have some 68 skills going off at once, without the ability to discern what they do or who they are from, it wont be easy. Alas, I would agree that seeing one side losing towers or rax is easiest to understand as being bad. | ||
|
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On August 19 2012 10:20 NB wrote: i dont think we are talking about the same football.... The fact that the dominating audience of real sport is getting old and out dated as the new generation growing up under the influential of computing and internet would make something like computer games much more acceptable. Think about it this way: 100 years ago if you ask people if they ever dream of landing on the moon, you must be a lunatic while now, traveling to space is commercially available. As the society growing throw time, a lot of revolution will change the way we look at "modern" culture and right now is the period of computing technology over taking traditional physical activities. Have you ever wonder why your parents or your grand parents want you to do sports? In my case its simply bc my dad fought in a war and the process of him growing up as a person is full with the definition of "dominant physically = dominant in society". Things have changed for the past 50 years or even just for the past decade. Instead of physical health, the needs for mental health is now raised as almost equal since the war period is now over. In a society, you are now more likely to be judged by your "intelligent" proven through out your education more than your physical well-being. Suddenly, real sports is no longer a dominant way to prove that you are 'alpha as fuck' inside a circle of people but money is a bigger variable. If you looks through most of the modern survey, women's criteria for their other half is more likely to be how success he is but how healthy and buff he look. ALL OF THESE ARE CHANGING which will ultimately change what we are looking at the current ways to compete irl. People are now want a tool so that they could show how good they are at 'thinking' rather than 'working out' and video games just happen to fit into the right slot. Fuck i spent too much time on this shit... most of these are what i told the guy who is doing his psychology graduate essay that i knew last year. How is all that relevant to what he said about ease of understanding Olympics compared to Dota for the average person, just because ESPORTS might become a little more accepted doesn't mean the average person will understand what the fuck is going on in Dota compared to any sport in the Olympics. | ||
|
PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
can anyone here not involved in Googling answers or greco roman wrestling tell me why the match stops after time and one player gets on all fours, and why if it goes to time a specific color takes a point? can anyone not involved in googling answers or diving explain the exact scores that certain divers or gymnasts get? no. you can't. you can tell slipping and falling = bad, and impressive looking things = good, but beyond that you have to be watching or involved with the sport for some time. | ||
|
Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
| ||
|
FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
| ||
|
Hnnngg
United States1101 Posts
| ||
|
Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
| ||
|
shostakovich
Brazil1429 Posts
On August 19 2012 09:34 SKC wrote: Sorry, but no, that's the probally the biggest issue with ESPORTS vs regular sports. It's pretty easy to understand that in football you simply have to kick the ball into the goal, or the basic rules in tennis, volleyball, whathever. I've never played american football in my life, or anything similar to it, and it was still fairly easy to understand the basics. Of course you won't be able to undertand tactics on more advanced stuff, but you don't really need to. And that's probally one of the most complicated sports out there. Just look at the Olympics, how many people watch sports they never played or never even heard off, but undertand them just fine. Show SC2 to someone that doesn't undertand what an RTS is and they won't have a clue on what's going on. It's not about being easy or hard to understand. For example, chess is quite hard to master and they have a lot of money going on and tons of coverage. It's unfair to compare traditional sports with esports because of tradition. There's years and years of tradition behind traditional sports. They're massified, everyone has access to it. No one owns soccer (FIFA might think that owns it, but they don't). If you want to play it, you just need something that looks like a ball, it doesn't even need to be a ball. eSports isn't massified, and it is usually slave to a company. Look at Brood War, for example. It had a big tradition, long years of development, and suddenly Blizzard abandons it and change everything, taking a huge shit on everything that was done before. Just imagine what would happen if suddenly someone changes all the soccer or football rules. We're lucky that Dota 2 is almost Dota 1, just imagine the chaos if Dota 2 became something like SC2. For eSports to have a minimal chance to become olympics-big, first of all people need to respect the years of tradition and let it develop naturally (instead of suddenly changing everything like Blizzard did, even though SC2 is a good game too). You don't get anywhere if your sport is tied to a company. So this way you can have some chance to massify it. It's all about numbers and demand. Once the game is huge and there's huge demand to make it accessible (and people see that answering the demand is profitable), it'll happen, just like it happened with other sports. | ||
|
shostakovich
Brazil1429 Posts
On August 19 2012 10:36 Itsmedudeman wrote: Why are we talking about the olympics again? Some of those sports are harder to make a living off of than dota and the only reason people care is because it's the olympics. I agree. And honestly, fuck the olympic comitee. They're corrupted to the soul. | ||
|
Nilrem
United States3684 Posts
| ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34510 Posts
I generally like EB -> manta -> skadi as my item progression. | ||
|
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
on morph it works as a dps item as well because you can just morph all the str to agi and hit things really fast plus it stacks with lifesteal which is pretty nice | ||
|
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
its really slot efficient but not that much cost efficient. | ||
| ||
