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United States47024 Posts
On June 26 2012 01:00 SKC wrote:
The logic of supports getting the kill being actually better is flawed though. It doesn't matter if the carry get's a lot of money anyway, if supports taking gold away from the carry was superior in any way it would be no diferent when talking about creep kills. Suports getting 200 gold from a hero instead of a carry is exactly the same as supports getting 200 gold instead of a carry on creep kills, but you hardly ever see them taking any farm just because a few creep kills won't matter, he will get most of them anyway.
But yes, the whole "stealing kills from a carry" is annoying, you do what it takes to kill. If the AM got all 6 kills in the beginning of the game, great. If not, it isn't such a big deal. The money is never wasted.
That's exactly the case though. Maybe not early game when the carry is building his basic farming items like RoH, but most certainly midgame you will see teams allocate some farm time to supports building their key items. A fed carry can't win the game by himself if the rest of his team is totally starved.
Particularly with Chinese teams, you can often see that the GPM gap between supports and carries isn't as wide as many people like to think it should be. They like to let their supports get to 5-6 items. They may be cheap items, but they do definitely finish important items, rather than being completely poor.
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I think the kill distinction should really only be applied for laning items or farming items that a carry needs. I think letting your carries last hit heroes really only affects someone rushing midas, battlefury, or radiance if they already have lane items.
Like if im dk and I already have treads helm or treads drum I'd rather let the supports farm a fast mek so we can push hard instead of getting one more item. Even before then id like them to have arcanes over getting a soul ring just for myself if it is possible (sometimes too risky).
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
On June 26 2012 03:23 scorch- wrote:
Early mek > *
I see your early mek and I raise you early dagon ~
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On June 26 2012 03:54 Firebolt145 wrote:I see your early mek and I raise you early dagon ~
I raise you all with early rapier
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On June 26 2012 03:58 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:54 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 26 2012 03:23 scorch- wrote:
Early mek > * I see your early mek and I raise you early dagon ~ I raise you all with early rapier
Naked rapier not good enough, needs more MoM.
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On June 26 2012 03:58 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:54 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 26 2012 03:23 scorch- wrote:
Early mek > * I see your early mek and I raise you early dagon ~ I raise you all with early rapier
But if you buy a Dagon early, you get a free Necronomicon.
Ok. A question for you all. I notice that in tournament games that teams often get ground down from splitpush by slippery heros such as Tinker/Prophet/Weaver/Broodmother, etc. The other team is often just floundering around in their base while the splitpush teams keeps disengaging a lot and not fighting. The pressure they place means that by the time a team can force a teamfight, they often aren't in a position to convert and push back out. What is the correct response to something like this? It seems like an incredibly powerful strategy if the splitpush team correctly co-ordinates.
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On June 26 2012 03:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 01:00 SKC wrote:
The logic of supports getting the kill being actually better is flawed though. It doesn't matter if the carry get's a lot of money anyway, if supports taking gold away from the carry was superior in any way it would be no diferent when talking about creep kills. Suports getting 200 gold from a hero instead of a carry is exactly the same as supports getting 200 gold instead of a carry on creep kills, but you hardly ever see them taking any farm just because a few creep kills won't matter, he will get most of them anyway.
But yes, the whole "stealing kills from a carry" is annoying, you do what it takes to kill. If the AM got all 6 kills in the beginning of the game, great. If not, it isn't such a big deal. The money is never wasted. That's exactly the case though. Maybe not early game when the carry is building his basic farming items like RoH, but most certainly midgame you will see teams allocate some farm time to supports building their key items. A fed carry can't win the game by himself if the rest of his team is totally starved. Particularly with Chinese teams, you can often see that the GPM gap between supports and carries isn't as wide as many people like to think it should be. They like to let their supports get to 5-6 items. They may be cheap items, but they do definitely finish important items, rather than being completely poor.
Well, yes, but are they farming alongside the main carry in diferent lanes/jungle or taking away farm from the carry for themselfs? From what I see carries are ussually farming the whole time, except when they are able to join ganks that won't harm their build up or when they are really needed for defense. If the carry has basically a full build things obviously change as well. The discussion seemed to be mainly about early game, as people were talking about getting early mana boots/wards/meks, etc and when teamfights start the whole bitching about stealing kills from the carry seem much more rare, so that comment was really about a common lane with a carry and a support and the support takes a few creeps here and there. With a choice between giving 200-300 free gold to your carry or 200-300 free gold to your support, specially early game would you really say it's common to choose the support over the carry? Getting that battlefury/radiance/eblade/whatever your core is a minute earlier seems more beneficial to me. I've seen people give kills to carries quite often even in pro games, when it's 100% sure it can't go wrong, I don't really remember the carry giving up and intentionally giving supports kills.
This isn't about "stealing kills is wrong", I just couldn't see how the gold would be better in a support than a carry, specially in that context.
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On June 26 2012 04:03 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:58 Qbek wrote:On June 26 2012 03:54 Firebolt145 wrote:On June 26 2012 03:23 scorch- wrote:
Early mek > * I see your early mek and I raise you early dagon ~ I raise you all with early rapier But if you buy a Dagon early, you get a free Necronomicon. Ok. A question for you all. I notice that in tournament games that teams often get ground down from splitpush by slippery heros such as Tinker/Prophet/Weaver/Broodmother, etc. The other team is often just floundering around in their base while the splitpush teams keeps disengaging a lot and not fighting. The pressure they place means that by the time a team can force a teamfight, they often aren't in a position to convert and push back out. What is the correct response to something like this? It seems like an incredibly powerful strategy if the splitpush team correctly co-ordinates.
Catch them off position. Kill them for being divided with numbers and reaction advantage..
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On June 26 2012 04:04 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:23 TheYango wrote:On June 26 2012 01:00 SKC wrote:
The logic of supports getting the kill being actually better is flawed though. It doesn't matter if the carry get's a lot of money anyway, if supports taking gold away from the carry was superior in any way it would be no diferent when talking about creep kills. Suports getting 200 gold from a hero instead of a carry is exactly the same as supports getting 200 gold instead of a carry on creep kills, but you hardly ever see them taking any farm just because a few creep kills won't matter, he will get most of them anyway.
But yes, the whole "stealing kills from a carry" is annoying, you do what it takes to kill. If the AM got all 6 kills in the beginning of the game, great. If not, it isn't such a big deal. The money is never wasted. That's exactly the case though. Maybe not early game when the carry is building his basic farming items like RoH, but most certainly midgame you will see teams allocate some farm time to supports building their key items. A fed carry can't win the game by himself if the rest of his team is totally starved. Particularly with Chinese teams, you can often see that the GPM gap between supports and carries isn't as wide as many people like to think it should be. They like to let their supports get to 5-6 items. They may be cheap items, but they do definitely finish important items, rather than being completely poor. Well, yes, but are they farming alongside the main carry in diferent lanes/jungle or taking away farm from the carry for themselfs? From what I see carries are ussually farming the whole time, except when they are able to join ganks that won't harm their build up or when they are really needed for defense. If the carry has basically a full build things obviously change as well. The discussion seemed to be mainly about early game, as people were talking about getting early mana boots/wards/meks, etc and when teamfights start the whole bitching about stealing kills from the carry seem much more rare. With a choice between giving 200-300 free gold to your carry or 200-300 free gold to your support, specially early game would you really say it's common to choose the support over the carry? Getting that battlefury/radiance/eblade/whatever your core is a minute earlier seems more beneficial to me. This isn't about "stealing kills is wrong", I just couldn't see how the gold would be better in a support than a carry, specially in that context.
200 gold on a support can be often translated into - 400 gold for the enemy carry, which is often much more beneficial than a 1 min earlier carry item
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On June 26 2012 04:09 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 04:04 SKC wrote:On June 26 2012 03:23 TheYango wrote:On June 26 2012 01:00 SKC wrote:
The logic of supports getting the kill being actually better is flawed though. It doesn't matter if the carry get's a lot of money anyway, if supports taking gold away from the carry was superior in any way it would be no diferent when talking about creep kills. Suports getting 200 gold from a hero instead of a carry is exactly the same as supports getting 200 gold instead of a carry on creep kills, but you hardly ever see them taking any farm just because a few creep kills won't matter, he will get most of them anyway.
But yes, the whole "stealing kills from a carry" is annoying, you do what it takes to kill. If the AM got all 6 kills in the beginning of the game, great. If not, it isn't such a big deal. The money is never wasted. That's exactly the case though. Maybe not early game when the carry is building his basic farming items like RoH, but most certainly midgame you will see teams allocate some farm time to supports building their key items. A fed carry can't win the game by himself if the rest of his team is totally starved. Particularly with Chinese teams, you can often see that the GPM gap between supports and carries isn't as wide as many people like to think it should be. They like to let their supports get to 5-6 items. They may be cheap items, but they do definitely finish important items, rather than being completely poor. Well, yes, but are they farming alongside the main carry in diferent lanes/jungle or taking away farm from the carry for themselfs? From what I see carries are ussually farming the whole time, except when they are able to join ganks that won't harm their build up or when they are really needed for defense. If the carry has basically a full build things obviously change as well. The discussion seemed to be mainly about early game, as people were talking about getting early mana boots/wards/meks, etc and when teamfights start the whole bitching about stealing kills from the carry seem much more rare. With a choice between giving 200-300 free gold to your carry or 200-300 free gold to your support, specially early game would you really say it's common to choose the support over the carry? Getting that battlefury/radiance/eblade/whatever your core is a minute earlier seems more beneficial to me. This isn't about "stealing kills is wrong", I just couldn't see how the gold would be better in a support than a carry, specially in that context. 200 gold on a support can be often translated into - 400 gold for the enemy carry, which is often much more beneficial than a 1 min earlier carry item
The enemy hero dies either way, if that's what you mean. It's not about not guarateeing a kill. It's about the comment that "in fact it's often times better for the support to get the last hit since they aren't farming anyway." I don't get that. They are not farming for a reason, it doesn't mean gold from kills suddenly gets better for them. Gold priority on your team isn't inverted when talking about creeps or heroes, it should be a general gold priority. I think you should hope the carry get's the kill, not the support, not that you should risk it so he gets the last hit.
I guess you mean in another gank, but then how is that diferent from giving them gold from creeps inlane? It's still minus gold for your carry and plus gold for the support, it should help his ganks later, but it's never done. Seems to me that gold to the carry is safer than hoping you can get a kill that you wouldn't without that gold.
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On June 26 2012 04:12 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 04:09 Qbek wrote:On June 26 2012 04:04 SKC wrote:On June 26 2012 03:23 TheYango wrote:On June 26 2012 01:00 SKC wrote:
The logic of supports getting the kill being actually better is flawed though. It doesn't matter if the carry get's a lot of money anyway, if supports taking gold away from the carry was superior in any way it would be no diferent when talking about creep kills. Suports getting 200 gold from a hero instead of a carry is exactly the same as supports getting 200 gold instead of a carry on creep kills, but you hardly ever see them taking any farm just because a few creep kills won't matter, he will get most of them anyway.
But yes, the whole "stealing kills from a carry" is annoying, you do what it takes to kill. If the AM got all 6 kills in the beginning of the game, great. If not, it isn't such a big deal. The money is never wasted. That's exactly the case though. Maybe not early game when the carry is building his basic farming items like RoH, but most certainly midgame you will see teams allocate some farm time to supports building their key items. A fed carry can't win the game by himself if the rest of his team is totally starved. Particularly with Chinese teams, you can often see that the GPM gap between supports and carries isn't as wide as many people like to think it should be. They like to let their supports get to 5-6 items. They may be cheap items, but they do definitely finish important items, rather than being completely poor. Well, yes, but are they farming alongside the main carry in diferent lanes/jungle or taking away farm from the carry for themselfs? From what I see carries are ussually farming the whole time, except when they are able to join ganks that won't harm their build up or when they are really needed for defense. If the carry has basically a full build things obviously change as well. The discussion seemed to be mainly about early game, as people were talking about getting early mana boots/wards/meks, etc and when teamfights start the whole bitching about stealing kills from the carry seem much more rare. With a choice between giving 200-300 free gold to your carry or 200-300 free gold to your support, specially early game would you really say it's common to choose the support over the carry? Getting that battlefury/radiance/eblade/whatever your core is a minute earlier seems more beneficial to me. This isn't about "stealing kills is wrong", I just couldn't see how the gold would be better in a support than a carry, specially in that context. 200 gold on a support can be often translated into - 400 gold for the enemy carry, which is often much more beneficial than a 1 min earlier carry item The enemy hero dies either way, if that's what you mean. It's not about not guarateeing a kill. It's about the comment that "in fact it's often times better for the support to get the last hit since they aren't farming anyway." I don't get that. They are not farming for a reason, it doesn't mean gold from kills suddenly gets better for them. I think you should hope the carry get's the kill, not the support, not that you should risk it so he gets the last hit. I guess you mean in another gank, but then how is that diferent from giving them gold from creeps inlane? It's still minus gold for your carry and plus gold for the support, it should help his ganks later, but it's never done. Seems to me that gold to the carry is safer than hoping you can get a kill that you wouldn't without that gold.
The support spend a lot of time not in the lane, how should they farm creeps? Support focus on ganking and pressuring so the carry can farm creeps. If in the process a kill happens it is often better to allocate the gold in the support so that he can perform his role more effectively without having to farm creeps. That's it, carries farm creeps because supports are busy doing something else to allow them to do it, it's logical they are rewarded with the kills if that is possible.
But in general both are good, it's just that people who intentionally steal a kill, often times wasting resources, that would happen anyway is what's really bad
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United States47024 Posts
On June 26 2012 04:04 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:23 TheYango wrote:On June 26 2012 01:00 SKC wrote:
The logic of supports getting the kill being actually better is flawed though. It doesn't matter if the carry get's a lot of money anyway, if supports taking gold away from the carry was superior in any way it would be no diferent when talking about creep kills. Suports getting 200 gold from a hero instead of a carry is exactly the same as supports getting 200 gold instead of a carry on creep kills, but you hardly ever see them taking any farm just because a few creep kills won't matter, he will get most of them anyway.
But yes, the whole "stealing kills from a carry" is annoying, you do what it takes to kill. If the AM got all 6 kills in the beginning of the game, great. If not, it isn't such a big deal. The money is never wasted. That's exactly the case though. Maybe not early game when the carry is building his basic farming items like RoH, but most certainly midgame you will see teams allocate some farm time to supports building their key items. A fed carry can't win the game by himself if the rest of his team is totally starved. Particularly with Chinese teams, you can often see that the GPM gap between supports and carries isn't as wide as many people like to think it should be. They like to let their supports get to 5-6 items. They may be cheap items, but they do definitely finish important items, rather than being completely poor. Well, yes, but are they farming alongside the main carry in diferent lanes/jungle or taking away farm from the carry for themselfs? From what I see carries are ussually farming the whole time, except when they are able to join ganks that won't harm their build up or when they are really needed for defense. If the carry has basically a full build things obviously change as well. The discussion seemed to be mainly about early game, as people were talking about getting early mana boots/wards/meks, etc and when teamfights start the whole bitching about stealing kills from the carry seem much more rare, so that comment was really about a common lane with a carry and a support and the support takes a few creeps here and there. With a choice between giving 200-300 free gold to your carry or 200-300 free gold to your support, specially early game would you really say it's common to choose the support over the carry? Getting that battlefury/radiance/eblade/whatever your core is a minute earlier seems more beneficial to me. I've seen people give kills to carries quite often even in pro games, when it's 100% sure it can't go wrong, I don't really remember the carry giving up and intentionally giving supports kills. This isn't about "stealing kills is wrong", I just couldn't see how the gold would be better in a support than a carry, specially in that context.
Why would the support take CS from the carry when he can walk half a screen back and just pull the pullable camp?
In hard lane duos, you definitely do see the support taking some of the CS from the lane for wards/boots/etc.
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Why dont people get BKB on DK. I just watched AUI2k throw that shit away against CLG. Atleast get a hood. Makes me upset 
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On June 26 2012 06:01 Spicy_Curry wrote:Why dont people get BKB on DK. I just watched AUI2k throw that shit away against CLG. Atleast get a hood. Makes me upset
Yeah, some people just seem to not think at all. You have massive armor and decent disable, all you need is some damage, some raw HP and a way to survive mass nukage. BKB helps with all of that
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On June 26 2012 03:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 01:00 SKC wrote:
The logic of supports getting the kill being actually better is flawed though. It doesn't matter if the carry get's a lot of money anyway, if supports taking gold away from the carry was superior in any way it would be no diferent when talking about creep kills. Suports getting 200 gold from a hero instead of a carry is exactly the same as supports getting 200 gold instead of a carry on creep kills, but you hardly ever see them taking any farm just because a few creep kills won't matter, he will get most of them anyway.
But yes, the whole "stealing kills from a carry" is annoying, you do what it takes to kill. If the AM got all 6 kills in the beginning of the game, great. If not, it isn't such a big deal. The money is never wasted. That's exactly the case though. Maybe not early game when the carry is building his basic farming items like RoH, but most certainly midgame you will see teams allocate some farm time to supports building their key items. A fed carry can't win the game by himself if the rest of his team is totally starved. Particularly with Chinese teams, you can often see that the GPM gap between supports and carries isn't as wide as many people like to think it should be. They like to let their supports get to 5-6 items. They may be cheap items, but they do definitely finish important items, rather than being completely poor.
It does differ from team to team though, some teams run completely raw supports while others do what you're describing.
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On June 26 2012 06:12 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 03:23 TheYango wrote:On June 26 2012 01:00 SKC wrote:
The logic of supports getting the kill being actually better is flawed though. It doesn't matter if the carry get's a lot of money anyway, if supports taking gold away from the carry was superior in any way it would be no diferent when talking about creep kills. Suports getting 200 gold from a hero instead of a carry is exactly the same as supports getting 200 gold instead of a carry on creep kills, but you hardly ever see them taking any farm just because a few creep kills won't matter, he will get most of them anyway.
But yes, the whole "stealing kills from a carry" is annoying, you do what it takes to kill. If the AM got all 6 kills in the beginning of the game, great. If not, it isn't such a big deal. The money is never wasted. That's exactly the case though. Maybe not early game when the carry is building his basic farming items like RoH, but most certainly midgame you will see teams allocate some farm time to supports building their key items. A fed carry can't win the game by himself if the rest of his team is totally starved. Particularly with Chinese teams, you can often see that the GPM gap between supports and carries isn't as wide as many people like to think it should be. They like to let their supports get to 5-6 items. They may be cheap items, but they do definitely finish important items, rather than being completely poor. It does differ from team to team though, some teams run completely raw supports while others do what you're describing.
This whole debate is really interesting to me. Honestly, I love playing support roles almost as much as I enjoy carrying hard. When I'm playing a support hero, it always amazes me how much rage you receive for grabbing a creep kill or snagging a kill. A starved support hero becomes a big liability, especially in games where a Morphling/Spectre/PA/Lina/etc. is present that reach out and kill you at any point without a moment's notice. Even letting your support farm a pair of bracers, boots, and a wand/bottle can be enough to last the rest of the game. But a naked support at the end of a laning phase? That usually turns out to be a bad thing imho.
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^thats exactly the hard part of playing a support. you need to have very very good resource management. I almost always try to let my carry get all the exp early on the lane (i keep stacking and pulling) and go aggressive at the right timing. Sometimes if i need like 200-300 gold to arcane i just call for a few creep kill, usually they dont mind.
Is it just me that lately the players in both team are getting really good in skill and manner wise?? Everyone seems to know what to do and there is almost no flame/trashtalk going lol
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On June 26 2012 08:32 BurningSera wrote:
^thats exactly the hard part of playing a support. you need to have very very good resource management. I almost always try to let my carry get all the exp early on the lane (i keep stacking and pulling) and go aggressive at the right timing. Sometimes if i need like 200-300 gold to arcane i just call for a few creep kill, usually they dont mind.
Is it just me that lately the players in both team are getting really good in skill and manner wise?? Everyone seems to know what to do and there is almost no flame/trashtalk going lol
It sounds like you're moving up the MMR points; that's what I find happens when I have played a few games. Just last night I played a 5v4 and the team with 4 people almost won it; everyone was like "good fight" "ggwp" etc at the end.
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On June 26 2012 08:32 BurningSera wrote:
^thats exactly the hard part of playing a support. you need to have very very good resource management. I almost always try to let my carry get all the exp early on the lane (i keep stacking and pulling) and go aggressive at the right timing. Sometimes if i need like 200-300 gold to arcane i just call for a few creep kill, usually they dont mind.
Is it just me that lately the players in both team are getting really good in skill and manner wise?? Everyone seems to know what to do and there is almost no flame/trashtalk going lol
Might be the skill level of those you play against has risen. So, maybe you are playing with better people that know what to do. Either that, or the mix of more people playing for longer, and pro-scene becoming more popular (for people to learn), influences how people play.
I do the same when I play support, except in cases like Furion. When I play on my smurf account, I go for more of a carry build unless we getting beaten on, than sheepstick and such. I absolutely love playing him and Shadow Shaman.
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EPT
