On April 20 2012 21:48 konadora wrote: i'm not saying they're not capable, but it is a fact that it's harder to micro 3 heroes than 1 and a half
On April 20 2012 21:58 NB wrote: again, the eastern scene dota2 is really small and we are not discussing about them. They have a completely different meta game with the thumb down of invoker and the raise of ES brood bat and panda. Also dont forget panda is a melee hero and on a team there is only maximum 2 slots for melee(laning purpose).
What im currently seeing right now is with the appearance of panda, tide/ES/SK will be smthing that teams should look into more carefully unlike the current meta where they are really close to top tier support.
Its also an issue of practice, you're not going to be able to instantly stick fire on a support + stun him + cyclone the carry + dispel something without at least being familiar with the hero. As far as the metas being different, yes they're different, but they're rapidly converging as we only have CK and I guess TC in terms of top heroes not in DotA2, and it'd be extremely surprising if something godtier in the Chinese meta (remember that lycan wasn't in the NA/EU meta either) to not be high pick/banned in a large portion of games would be pretty shocking.
As for meta differences, a lot of it has to do with perception and engine of DotA 1/2, for example, Invoker is a lot stronger now because a smoother engine and key assignment just makes using him significantly easier and more efficient (still very difficult obviously) and I feel like Bat's only so low because of the extremely poor reception it got from people who've only tried the DotA2 variant during the bugged phase. There are certainly stylistic differences, but OP is OP.
On April 20 2012 22:54 cilinder007 wrote: I guess if you dont use stun, tornado and windwalk aghs is a bit of a waste, but you still do a lot of dmg just from rightclicks and at low mmr that should be enough to destroy a lot of teamfights :D
It's worth it just for the duration boost, the cooldown reduction, and the substantial attack damage boost on every panda, obviously as with anything being proficient with the abilities is going to add a lot to it. Obviously ags is not to be prioritized before dagger, but its definitely the most important item on him.
On April 20 2012 22:54 cilinder007 wrote: I guess if you dont use stun, tornado and windwalk aghs is a bit of a waste, but you still do a lot of dmg just from rightclicks and at low mmr that should be enough to destroy a lot of teamfights :D
go watch those 'high mmr' live games and see some failed pandas. alot failed pandas.
personally i prefer dagger+massive dps items, melee carry is melee carry!!!
panda isnt a hero to used in pub. as well as several heroes such as krobe/sylla/pugna/leshrac... it requires a certain element of team oriented play such as 5 men pushing or forcing teamfight. If the game is played in match making, expect riki BH god-tier ezpz
On April 20 2012 21:58 NB wrote: again, the eastern scene dota2 is really small and we are not discussing about them. They have a completely different meta game with the thumb down of invoker and the raise of ES brood bat and panda. Also dont forget panda is a melee hero and on a team there is only maximum 2 slots for melee(laning purpose).
What im currently seeing right now is with the appearance of panda, tide/ES/SK will be smthing that teams should look into more carefully unlike the current meta where they are really close to top tier support.
How are you thinking when you say 2 melee? I can easily think of lineups with 3 melee. 1 mid, then one on each dual lane or roaming sven/ES with a solo melee such as brood.
For a complete lineup:
BM mid. BM solo side lane. ES on a tri with mirana and CM.
On April 20 2012 21:12 Kupon3ss wrote: panda is actually seens as scarier than LD and Furion in China atm, its basically top ban tier along with the likes of Lycan and bat. His ability to create chaos and disrupt formation in a teamfight is unmatched and is a very strong pushing/ganking core that matures quite quickly.
Scary stuff when ult is microed correctly since you essentially take a hero out of the fight with cyclone and start destorying their back row supports very quickly, did I mention that a full hp panda with blink appears after ult finishes?
LD just plain isn't scary in the hands of anyone who isn't Burning, Zhou, or Sylar IMO.
Not worth a ban unless against their respective teams.
On April 20 2012 22:54 cilinder007 wrote: I guess if you dont use stun, tornado and windwalk aghs is a bit of a waste, but you still do a lot of dmg just from rightclicks and at low mmr that should be enough to destroy a lot of teamfights :D
It's worth it just for the duration boost, the cooldown reduction, and the substantial attack damage boost on every panda, obviously as with anything being proficient with the abilities is going to add a lot to it. Obviously ags is not to be prioritized before dagger, but its definitely the most important item on him.
Bear in mind that while this is true in pubs, aura items will often take priority over Agh's because of how they affect your team's overall fighting strength, and rather than just your own (undoubtedly Agh's is the best way to boost Panda's *individual* fighting strength). In competitive games you'll often see Janggo+Vlad's before Aghanim's.
Remember, Panda retains auras even during his ultimate, meaning that aura items benefit your ult pandas.
On April 20 2012 21:58 NB wrote: again, the eastern scene dota2 is really small and we are not discussing about them. They have a completely different meta game with the thumb down of invoker and the raise of ES brood bat and panda. Also dont forget panda is a melee hero and on a team there is only maximum 2 slots for melee(laning purpose).
What im currently seeing right now is with the appearance of panda, tide/ES/SK will be smthing that teams should look into more carefully unlike the current meta where they are really close to top tier support.
How are you thinking when you say 2 melee? I can easily think of lineups with 3 melee. 1 mid, then one on each dual lane or roaming sven/ES with a solo melee such as brood.
For a complete lineup:
BM mid. BM solo side lane. ES on a tri with mirana and CM.
brood doesnt count as melee bc she is a special case and she is top ban anyway. The option is really limited and easily countered not even counting that you will have a really hard time in team fight since half of your team will have to dive in enemy attack range. You could go look up any VODs of games that run more than 2 melee with NS Tide SK etc any will see what i mean. also with your proposed line up, where are you intending to fit panda in there? solo mid?
On April 20 2012 21:58 NB wrote: again, the eastern scene dota2 is really small and we are not discussing about them. They have a completely different meta game with the thumb down of invoker and the raise of ES brood bat and panda. Also dont forget panda is a melee hero and on a team there is only maximum 2 slots for melee(laning purpose).
What im currently seeing right now is with the appearance of panda, tide/ES/SK will be smthing that teams should look into more carefully unlike the current meta where they are really close to top tier support.
How are you thinking when you say 2 melee? I can easily think of lineups with 3 melee. 1 mid, then one on each dual lane or roaming sven/ES with a solo melee such as brood.
For a complete lineup:
BM mid. BM solo side lane. ES on a tri with mirana and CM.
brood doesnt count as melee bc she is a special case and she is top ban anyway. The option is really limited and easily countered not even counting that you will have a really hard time in team fight since half of your team will have to dive in enemy attack range. You could go look up any VODs of games that run more than 2 melee with NS Tide SK etc any will see what i mean. also with your proposed line up, where are you intending to fit panda in there? solo mid?
Dragon Knight can solo mid Dark Seer is a melee hero Panda can solo mid Tiny can Solo mid
There are compositions with 3 melee heroes, it just happens to depend on the situation really.
There is no strict rule of having only 2 melee, there are compositions which have 3 melee.Dark Seer solo side, Tidehunter mid, they are all possibilities.
Also Earthshaker, while being melee, can also be run within the 3 melee composition due to his skillset(or actually, fissure)
On April 21 2012 00:19 cilinder007 wrote: Panda can solo mid
Panda is often run as solo mid, quite similar to the way DK works actually, bottle courier and stomp the lane, constant pressure while remaining essentially ungankable with ult 3 melee lineups are actually quite common at the moment, especially with "special cases" like brood and DS (obviously if you don't count them as melee heroes T_T). The nice thing about the evolution of DotA/DotA2 is that we've finally gotten to a point where almost any lane setup and team composition, be it 4-1 with hard trilane to quad core 1-1-2 with jungler or anything in between is viable if correctly set up and executed. You're really limiting yourself if you believe that you can't have melee lanes
It's not just the "special cases" that involve a 3rd melee laner in the long lane. Given how often 2-1-2 or 2-2-1 are played in Chinese play, long lane duos with melee laners are quite common. A lot of the popular laners are strong enough that even in a long lane duo, they have perfectly acceptable control of the lane. Chaos Knight, Panda, Bounty Hunter, and Clock are examples of melee laners that can be seen as part of a long lane duo.
panda is ultimate team fighter, his ult is insanity.
played a game last night I randomed AM (LOLOL) and my friend picked panda. We played against a heavy push lineup so I had to skip bfury first and actually vlads up into quick manta to be worth a shit. He basically single handedly defended our mid lane t3/rax to buy me enough time to get my manta up with his ult. After that defense the game was downhill for dire, finished the rest of my items and they couldn't stop us.
<3 panda. to be fair my friend played a lot of panda in dota1 so knew what he was doing, I haven't seen these 'bad' pandas people speak of. His ult isn't even hard to use imo.
On April 21 2012 01:58 crms wrote: panda is ultimate team fighter, his ult is insanity.
played a game last night I randomed AM (LOLOL) and my friend picked panda. We played against a heavy push lineup so I had to skip bfury first and actually vlads up into quick manta to be worth a shit. He basically single handedly defended our mid lane t3/rax to buy me enough time to get my manta up with his ult. After that defense the game was downhill for dire, finished the rest of my items and they couldn't stop us.
<3 panda. to be fair my friend played a lot of panda in dota1 so knew what he was doing, I haven't seen these 'bad' pandas people speak of. His ult isn't even hard to use imo.
There is a difference between using something and using it well. Against a heavy push team a single panda isnt going to do shit other than stomp. You can bait the ult and then just come back 20 seconds later.
On April 21 2012 02:37 Spicy_Curry wrote: There is a difference between using something and using it well. Against a heavy push team a single panda isnt going to do shit other than stomp. You can bait the ult and then just come back 20 seconds later.
"bait" the ult?
If Panda ults, and you choose not to to fight it and just run (and his team is there to follow up), you're guaranteed to lose at least 2 people. One person he immediately stuns, and a second that he Cyclones to finish off after they're done killing the first person. And that's assuming that people he Thunder Clapped didn't get caught as well while they were slowed.
On April 21 2012 02:37 Spicy_Curry wrote: There is a difference between using something and using it well. Against a heavy push team a single panda isnt going to do shit other than stomp. You can bait the ult and then just come back 20 seconds later.
"bait" the ult?
If Panda ults, and you choose to to fight it and just run (and his team is there to follow up), you're guaranteed to lose at least 2 people. One person he immediately stuns, and a second that he Cyclones to finish off after they're done killing the first person. And that's assuming that people he Thunder Clapped didn't get caught as well while they were slowed.
yeah my thoughts as well. if you go in hard enough to make him ult, you better be prepared to lose at least 2 heroes in the ensuing retreat/team fight.
EPT
