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One of the leading Russian servers has now added Dota 2.
We have merged the best of both worlds — DotA 2 with the official client, minimal ping on Eastern Europe servers, games for ladder points, win-loss and win rate percentage is available for public view. From now on you will be able to know the skill of opponents and most importantly — the power of your allies.
Also, top 16 players of the season will have a chance to fight for the total prize of $5000 which will be raffled off at the end of the season.
- The season started: 22:06.2013 at 00:20 MSK (GMT +4)
- Server: iCCup (key is not required)
- Gaming system: Ladder
- Prize: $ 5000
More information can be found here.
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off*
This seems pretty cool. Is it likely to get big? I'm not that familiar with iCCup.
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On June 22 2013 21:50 FreeZer wrote:
off*
This seems pretty cool. Is it likely to get big? I'm not that familiar with iCCup.
A typo which I can't fix, so if some of the mods could do it that would be cool...
Hopefully it will be  They had pretty cool BW and Dota servers
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holy shit this is fucking amazing
On June 22 2013 21:50 FreeZer wrote:
off*
This seems pretty cool. Is it likely to get big? I'm not that familiar with iCCup.
Yea iccup was HUGE in starcraft broodwar, not only did it prevent cheating but there ladder system was awesome. It ranked you and put you in different classes from D- to A+ and that rated your skill. I feel this will be big not only because is it impossible to tell what your teammates play level is, but you can never know what your real level of play is and see how you really rank among others.
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I'm not plugged into the BW community, can someone tell me if ICCUP sucks or not?
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On June 22 2013 22:30 PassiveAce wrote:
I'm not plugged into the BW community, can someone tell me if ICCUP sucks or not?
Iccup was THE place to play BW for a very long time. Dunno about now but original BW servers where empty while everyone played on Iccup.
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You can play 1vs1, 3vs3 or 5vs5. Which hero do you think is the best for 1vs1? :D
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^bane is pretty fuckin obnoxious 1v1.
especially if soulring is legal.
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Cool to see things converge before the release.
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I played SC:BW and Dota1 and both was awesome. Dota1 had 90% russians but the service provided with ladder, matchmaking, ping and ranking was far above any other service but couldnt get a grip in the western scene, because you know, 90% russians ... :D
Everyone I told about the server and dragged onto it loved it.
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On June 22 2013 22:30 PassiveAce wrote:
I'm not plugged into the BW community, can someone tell me if ICCUP sucks or not?
As stated by some people, iCCup was pretty much a place to play BW Their Dota server was also pretty big, and hopefully this one will become too. Has good ladder and anti hack systems
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On June 22 2013 22:36 Skomski wrote:
You can play 1vs1, 3vs3 or 5vs5. Which hero do you think is the best for 1vs1? :D
od/brood/bat/skywrath/bane/enchantress and probably a few more
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51449 Posts
Is there any point on playing on ICCUP if you aren't located in Eastern Europe? It seems like it is only useful to those in Russia/CIS.
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Don't think so. Playing from other region = worse ping + communication problems most likely
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On June 22 2013 22:45 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 22:36 Skomski wrote:
You can play 1vs1, 3vs3 or 5vs5. Which hero do you think is the best for 1vs1? :D od/brood/bat/skywrath/bane/enchantress and probably a few more
skywrath and quas maxing invoker ?  I'm more interested in who will dominate 3v3, prolly heroes like Slark and weaver
also while this is definitly cool, I'd rather play on the real servers
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Hopefully this will give the Russians a new home. I hear a lot of negative comments on their appearance on EU servers lately :\
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Sounds really cool but are they doing this with Valve's permission or are these "illegal" servers like they were for BW. Since this basically goes against what Valve want (public MMR etc) and they basically shut down dotabuff for implementing an open MMR system, I wonder how they will take to iccup? I take it these games don't show up on your dota profile, so I suppose what you do in custom games is none of valve concern, but it would be interesting to find out what Valve say
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On June 22 2013 23:28 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 22:45 Erasme wrote:On June 22 2013 22:36 Skomski wrote:
You can play 1vs1, 3vs3 or 5vs5. Which hero do you think is the best for 1vs1? :D od/brood/bat/skywrath/bane/enchantress and probably a few more skywrath and quas maxing invoker ? I'm more interested in who will dominate 3v3, prolly heroes like Slark and weaver also while this is definitly cool, I'd rather play on the real servers
quas invoker doesnt have any damage, you're playing a shadowfiend without razes or necromastery ;p
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On June 23 2013 00:01 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 23:28 Iplaythings wrote:On June 22 2013 22:45 Erasme wrote:On June 22 2013 22:36 Skomski wrote:
You can play 1vs1, 3vs3 or 5vs5. Which hero do you think is the best for 1vs1? :D od/brood/bat/skywrath/bane/enchantress and probably a few more skywrath and quas maxing invoker ? I'm more interested in who will dominate 3v3, prolly heroes like Slark and weaver also while this is definitly cool, I'd rather play on the real servers quas invoker doesnt have any damage, you're playing a shadowfiend without razes or necromastery ;p
cold snap -> even a low level sunstrike is annoying and dangerous as fuck though
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can we get something like this for Canada/US Please
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On June 23 2013 00:16 aintz wrote:
can we get something like this for Canada/US Please
lmfao why? What would be the point of bringing this to US/CA with valve here
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did you not read the main post? do valve servers have those features...
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On June 22 2013 23:50 emythrel wrote:
Sounds really cool but are they doing this with Valve's permission or are these "illegal" servers like they were for BW. Since this basically goes against what Valve want (public MMR etc) and they basically shut down dotabuff for implementing an open MMR system, I wonder how they will take to iccup? I take it these games don't show up on your dota profile, so I suppose what you do in custom games is none of valve concern, but it would be interesting to find out what Valve say
Is Valve going after IXDL, CDEC or other inhouses? All those use a non-valve MM and have public MMR as well.
The important part is that all those (as well as ICCup) are opt-in and not forced (which DBR was).
The only difference is that the others are using Valve's official servers while ICCup rather hosts the server on their own.
And afaik the files to host a server on your own are openly available.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
You're still using the official client and it's just a system built around it.
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On June 23 2013 00:43 aintz wrote:
did you not read the main post? do valve servers have those features...
but....no hats.. HATS man HATSSS
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Valve probably views leagues like this as free publicity and may even secretly encourage them. In a free-to-play game, anything that boosts the popularity of your game like iCCup is doing is a good thing.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
I would try but after seeing what iCCup has become recently with their .... admins I won't.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
If anything it would benefit Valve to support it and create a system where you could get key and item drops in systems like this as well. Because it only takes load off Valve's servers.
But that's not going to happen because it would be open to abuse.
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Wait... key is not required... so it doesn't go through steam? how will it be patched?
The thing I love the most is the BW ranking system ^^
EDIT: Oh, so you download the game through steam and you can play with or without steam in the client. Also no matchmaking, you create and enter the games old-school way
![[image loading]](http://static.iccup.com/upload/images/news/dota/GameStart.png)
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
I'm guessing key isn't required because they're running dedicated servers.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
I'm guessing it's full of russians. ICCup is russian friendly.
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ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) But at what cost?
Eastern Europe - tons of russians. GG >.<
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Australia7069 Posts
it's just a third party ladder where u play private lobbies for no hats and on euro servers.
lol
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If you do not speak Russian, you're gonna have a bad time.
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On June 22 2013 23:30 Taronar wrote:
Hopefully this will give the Russians a new home. I hear a lot of negative comments on their appearance on EU servers lately :\
I queue for US East-West only. Cyrillic and ellipsis' everywhere. One guess who gets rares at the end.
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It would be nice if in the future they had 'rooms' like Garena, so you could play only with people from your own country or region (that would be awesome)
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If this means I will get less russian on europe queue then I am all for it
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With Dota 2 having matchmaking I don't really see the point of this but good job I guess.
Also I tried playing DotA on iCCup a few years back and it was 100% Russian speaking players. Not really the best choice if you can't speak Russian.
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On gonna make an account in there and do some trolling
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Weren't there console commands to tell you ur MMR in steam?
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On June 23 2013 05:29 Nightsz wrote:
Weren't there console commands to tell you ur MMR in steam?
Very early in the beta, it was quickly patched out of the game.
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On June 22 2013 23:50 emythrel wrote:
Sounds really cool but are they doing this with Valve's permission or are these "illegal" servers like they were for BW. Since this basically goes against what Valve want (public MMR etc) and they basically shut down dotabuff for implementing an open MMR system, I wonder how they will take to iccup? I take it these games don't show up on your dota profile, so I suppose what you do in custom games is none of valve concern, but it would be interesting to find out what Valve say
I don't think (at least I hope) it won't be a problem. Valve is against other people assigning ratings on real (as in battle-point-earning, matchmaking-button-within-Dota) matchmaking games.
On the other hand, this is a third-party, opt-in system that would be assigning ranks based on games played only in that system. If all ICCUP is doing is managing private lobbies (like d2ware/DotaCR already do for alternate modes) and maintaining stats for those games, they shouldn't run into the kind of trouble dotabuff did (since they were instead running these stats on "real" matchmaking games).
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This is looks fun, gonna give it a try.
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On June 23 2013 01:27 739 wrote:
I would try but after seeing what iCCup has become recently with their .... admins I won't.
What kind of problem do you have?
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This is not bad at all, client is sleek, you can see your stats for specific heroes on your account page, and it has a pretty extensive match details page for every game played (Example match )
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 23 2013 19:38 Esc4toN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 01:27 739 wrote:
I would try but after seeing what iCCup has become recently with their .... admins I won't. What kind of problem do you have?
Have you not heard of the iCCup admin issues?
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On June 23 2013 19:54 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 19:38 Esc4toN wrote:On June 23 2013 01:27 739 wrote:
I would try but after seeing what iCCup has become recently with their .... admins I won't. What kind of problem do you have? Have you not heard of the iCCup admin issues?
If it is with BW, yes I did, but that has nothing to do with Dota 2
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On June 23 2013 02:53 Zeo wrote:
It would be nice if in the future they had 'rooms' like Garena, so you could play only with people from your own country or region (that would be awesome)
There is an European channel, which is atm, as expected filled with Russian (CIS) people, but in near future there might be Europe only server which wont allow Russians (CIS) speakers to be a part of it, which leads to playing some good Dota 2 while you can actually understand your teammate
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I tried to play a game but they flamed be because i don't know russian lol. Not very friendly for english speakers.
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I like this move by ICCUP very much. Their server was the pinnacle of BW laddering to say the least. I won't be joining in the fun though, because I prefer playing on Europe West or South Africa.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 23 2013 20:05 Esc4toN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 19:54 Targe wrote:On June 23 2013 19:38 Esc4toN wrote:On June 23 2013 01:27 739 wrote:
I would try but after seeing what iCCup has become recently with their .... admins I won't. What kind of problem do you have? Have you not heard of the iCCup admin issues? If it is with BW, yes I did, but that has nothing to do with Dota 2
Same people.
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On June 23 2013 23:36 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 20:05 Esc4toN wrote:On June 23 2013 19:54 Targe wrote:On June 23 2013 19:38 Esc4toN wrote:On June 23 2013 01:27 739 wrote:
I would try but after seeing what iCCup has become recently with their .... admins I won't. What kind of problem do you have? Have you not heard of the iCCup admin issues? If it is with BW, yes I did, but that has nothing to do with Dota 2 Same people.
Not really
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Northern Ireland1200 Posts
I dont see the point in this, tbh. Valve has made a much better system. Gone are hte days where you looked to find better options to play than war3 servers for dota 1. Time has moved on quite a bit. I cant see this lasting long. People need their hats.
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On June 24 2013 07:13 Chewits wrote:
I dont see the point in this, tbh. Valve has made a much better system. Gone are hte days where you looked to find better options to play than war3 servers for dota 1. Time has moved on quite a bit. I cant see this lasting long. People need their hats.
Think of it as an in-house system that offers specific services that Valve currently does not. I think this is a good thing. It helps Valve see systems at work that might work on the general client and they might possibly add something like this in the future. While a lot of people love Dota 2 hats, not everybody needs them.
This is also free publicity for Dota 2 to the Brood War and Warcraft DotA users from ICCUP.
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Dunno how Valve seems about this, and I don't think its gunna stay, specially with the launch without steam thing. I think this will be much better suited for Dedicated Servers.
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So, my experience as a non-ukr-russ speaking person from the first 5 games. The matchmaking is better than the one Valve has atm, this solely speaking for solo players due to the fact that the balance is done by points + rank and you actually see the balance being done before the game starts. The bad part is that the most of the community is either from Russia or Ukraine. I the 5 games I played, I encountered massive russians only in 1 game (which I lost ofc). The rest 4 games were far better than the high tier of Valve. I have experience in both high and very high tiers on Valve but due to being a casual player (2-3 games a day) I can't mantain the win ratio/won games(nr.) for the Valve "very high" tier. So it's a good place for solo players that don't talk much (chatwheel ftw!) that are quite casual but high skilled. So if you get matched with people from Ukraine, you'll be rather ok, but again.. someone call a ghost and bomb Russia. KTHXBYE!
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On June 24 2013 07:13 Chewits wrote:
I dont see the point in this, tbh. Valve has made a much better system. Gone are hte days where you looked to find better options to play than war3 servers for dota 1. Time has moved on quite a bit. I cant see this lasting long. People need their hats.
Because despite what a vocal minority wants people to think Ranked Matchmaking/Ladders are a huge part of competitive gaming and if the developer doesn't offer it natively someone else will build it.
Also Valve matchmaking is pretty shit.
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On June 23 2013 21:54 Aelfric wrote:
I tried to play a game but they flamed be because i don't know russian lol. Not very friendly for english speakers.
It's like opposite day.
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As I said earlier, in near future there might be Europe only server which wont allow Russians (CIS) speakers to be a part of it, which leads to playing some good Dota 2 while you can actually understand your teammate and not being flamed for not knowing Russian
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I tried it, works good. A lot of low-level players you will have to plough through to get decent rank >_<
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On June 25 2013 00:53 DrPandaPhD wrote:
I tried it, works good. A lot of low-level players you will have to plough through to get decent rank >_<
Every beginning is hard
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i played 6 games and in 4 of them someone on my team left (3 times after firstblood) but that were mostly some 1 or 2 game accounts - imo this will get better in the near future.
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On June 26 2013 02:17 viermalvier wrote:
i played 6 games and in 4 of them someone on my team left (3 times after firstblood) but that were mostly some 1 or 2 game accounts - imo this will get better in the near future.
I'm waiting to see if they add some NA servers and if they do I might actually start playing Dota again.
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hope it's better than their DotA: Allstars servers, they were terrible in too many ways -.-
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On June 26 2013 02:33 Esoterikk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 02:17 viermalvier wrote:
i played 6 games and in 4 of them someone on my team left (3 times after firstblood) but that were mostly some 1 or 2 game accounts - imo this will get better in the near future. I'm waiting to see if they add some NA servers and if they do I might actually start playing Dota again.
I think at the moment there is no plan for that But maybe in future, who knows
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On June 27 2013 22:43 Esc4toN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 02:33 Esoterikk wrote:On June 26 2013 02:17 viermalvier wrote:
i played 6 games and in 4 of them someone on my team left (3 times after firstblood) but that were mostly some 1 or 2 game accounts - imo this will get better in the near future. I'm waiting to see if they add some NA servers and if they do I might actually start playing Dota again. I think at the moment there is no plan for that But maybe in future, who knows
I've actually just started playing on the ICCup servers regardless, lag is a small price to pay for a functioning ladder.
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Have you decided on when the season ends?
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I think we need to bug iccup to make an american equivilant - at least until Valve learns how stupid their "matchmaking" system is and implements it themselves.. the game is virtually unplayable in its current state with matchmaking.
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On July 16 2013 10:09 SnowfaLL wrote:
I think we need to bug iccup to make an american equivilant - at least until Valve learns how stupid their "matchmaking" system is and implements it themselves.. the game is virtually unplayable in its current state with matchmaking.
I blame holydays personally. Childish behaviours have been rampant last two weeks. It's like it's week end every day now.
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i am us east. how is the ping there
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On July 16 2013 14:42 Leeoku wrote:
i am us east. how is the ping there
I would imagine it's similar to the ping you get to Luxembourg/Stockholm, you should try to play games hosted on the iccup EU server though, I think it's better for you than the RU one.
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Why would I grind through 100's of games with noobs when volvo mm puts me in vh bracket after like 20 games of stomping.
How is iccup system any better than mm?
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This sucks hard....Valve will stop them because they lose money.Besides that russian servers will go empty and all russians that are left will need 15minutes searchtime if most of the russians play on iccup , because of that more Russians will play on Europe Server that will make things worse...not seeing a good ending here.
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On July 16 2013 18:34 Steveling wrote:
Why would I grind through 100's of games with noobs when volvo mm puts me in vh bracket after like 20 games of stomping.
How is iccup system any better than mm?
steveling pls.
The idea here is that you need to put effort into getting into it and people who will be interested in it, will most likely also care a bit more about the quality of games.
It makes me wonder though, what would be the point of all this if it's just sort of a replacement for the regular MM. Is the quality actually better or does it swing like MM does?
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Seems pointless to NA people because we get 150+ ping on Easter Europe servers. At least this should reduce the number of Russians on NA servers though. Also if it's the same admins as the BW people, I'm not going there; since I don't want to get my city banned.
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On July 16 2013 19:09 makmeatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 18:34 Steveling wrote:
Why would I grind through 100's of games with noobs when volvo mm puts me in vh bracket after like 20 games of stomping.
How is iccup system any better than mm? steveling pls. The idea here is that you need to put effort into getting into it and people who will be interested in it, will most likely also care a bit more about the quality of games. It makes me wonder though, what would be the point of all this if it's just sort of a replacement for the regular MM. Is the quality actually better or does it swing like MM does?
It all depends on which kind of games you join, anything below C- is usually very unpredictable. However, the higher ranked games seem more serious and stable compared to MM.
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Do people know, was this made in cooperation with Valve ? I would hate to see another Dotabuff scenario..
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Russian Federation3329 Posts
On July 16 2013 13:51 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 10:09 SnowfaLL wrote:
I think we need to bug iccup to make an american equivilant - at least until Valve learns how stupid their "matchmaking" system is and implements it themselves.. the game is virtually unplayable in its current state with matchmaking. I blame holydays personally. Childish behaviours have been rampant last two weeks. It's like it's week end every day now.
Oh my gosh recently people have becoming so immature. I had a game where two people were just cursing each other out at the 1 minute mark, and I legit have no idea why. One guy (in a horrible accent) told another guy he was a stupid idiot. And the other guy just raged and then the two wouldn't stop till the 5 minute mark... I think it was an early abandon that game so I quit as soon as possible.
EDIT: I remember why they started cursing each other.... One guy from our team dc'ed and our team wanted to pause except the one guy and he just kept on calling everyone idiots... ...
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Might work but I guess iCCup's plan is to monetize it by adding pro accounts/stat buffs like they did for DotA1 a few years ago = baddies can get/maintain high ranks because they lose fewer points per loss and gain more points per win compared to regular users...
example: http://www.iccup.com/dota/gamingprofile/terranova-.html
Atleast they changed it so the stat buffs/debuffs don't have as much impact on A- and above. Was completely broken for a season or two...
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As for you folks who asked for a euw,na server, dota league is making a comeback from what I hear.
http://dota2-league.net/
This was a very established system back in the day, hope it goes well.
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where is the server located?
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On July 16 2013 18:34 Steveling wrote:
Why would I grind through 100's of games with noobs when volvo mm puts me in vh bracket after like 20 games of stomping.
How is iccup system any better than mm?
but thats not the case; my last 5 games of "very high" bracket included 3 abandons, and people who literally a moved into towers. Go read the first 30 threads on the dota dev forums; the matchmaking system is SO broken its a joke; people with 900+ games getting paired with people with 20 games.
The way MM currently works; it wants you to be 50% at every time. So what it does is if it sees someone winning a lot, it matches them with the lowest players in an effort for "High skilled players can teach newbies" - but it really ends up being one person who may be great, playing with 4 newbies vs 5 decently-solid players.. And if you play dota at all, you know your only as strong as your weakest link.
The way HoN ladder works (and im assuming LoL, since they have a very successful ladder) is it tries to balance out the team; if there are only 10 people searching and 2 are super low ranked compared to the other 8, it splits them up, rather than just putting them on the same team with the highest level player. That is the difference between a good matchmaking and whatever Valve calls this monstrosity.
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On July 16 2013 19:30 G3CKO wrote:
Seems pointless to NA people because we get 150+ ping on Easter Europe servers. At least this should reduce the number of Russians on NA servers though. Also if it's the same admins as the BW people, I'm not going there; since I don't want to get my city banned.
Dota 2 admins on iCCup are totally different from the BW ones 
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iCCup is good and all but the admins have free reign. For people that are not Russian you are not missing out the quality of games are not better or worse but 5000$ sounds good.
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Aww man mad props to iccup. Large part of my decision to league over dota lately was that league has a rank system while dota didn't. Now that'll change. BYE LEAGUE.
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Don't really see the point in iCCup moving to Dota 2 because with Valve being in charge, I'm sure they're going to keep adding all sorts of cool stuff to the game including rankings, eventually. I have faith in Valve :3
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On July 17 2013 04:09 SnowfaLL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 18:34 Steveling wrote:
Why would I grind through 100's of games with noobs when volvo mm puts me in vh bracket after like 20 games of stomping.
How is iccup system any better than mm? but thats not the case; my last 5 games of "very high" bracket included 3 abandons, and people who literally a moved into towers. Go read the first 30 threads on the dota dev forums; the matchmaking system is SO broken its a joke; people with 900+ games getting paired with people with 20 games. The way MM currently works; it wants you to be 50% at every time. So what it does is if it sees someone winning a lot, it matches them with the lowest players in an effort for "High skilled players can teach newbies" - but it really ends up being one person who may be great, playing with 4 newbies vs 5 decently-solid players.. And if you play dota at all, you know your only as strong as your weakest link. The way HoN ladder works (and im assuming LoL, since they have a very successful ladder) is it tries to balance out the team; if there are only 10 people searching and 2 are super low ranked compared to the other 8, it splits them up, rather than just putting them on the same team with the highest level player. That is the difference between a good matchmaking and whatever Valve calls this monstrosity.
That's not the case at all.
I must get like 1 bad player every 5 games or so.
It's just that people pick carries or don't support with a support or troll or grief or some other shit but very few of the players that may cause you to lose a game, for the previous reasons, don't belong to your skill bracket.
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On July 17 2013 08:10 Steveling wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:09 SnowfaLL wrote:On July 16 2013 18:34 Steveling wrote:
Why would I grind through 100's of games with noobs when volvo mm puts me in vh bracket after like 20 games of stomping.
How is iccup system any better than mm? but thats not the case; my last 5 games of "very high" bracket included 3 abandons, and people who literally a moved into towers. Go read the first 30 threads on the dota dev forums; the matchmaking system is SO broken its a joke; people with 900+ games getting paired with people with 20 games. The way MM currently works; it wants you to be 50% at every time. So what it does is if it sees someone winning a lot, it matches them with the lowest players in an effort for "High skilled players can teach newbies" - but it really ends up being one person who may be great, playing with 4 newbies vs 5 decently-solid players.. And if you play dota at all, you know your only as strong as your weakest link. The way HoN ladder works (and im assuming LoL, since they have a very successful ladder) is it tries to balance out the team; if there are only 10 people searching and 2 are super low ranked compared to the other 8, it splits them up, rather than just putting them on the same team with the highest level player. That is the difference between a good matchmaking and whatever Valve calls this monstrosity. That's not the case at all. I must get like 1 bad player every 5 games or so. It's just that people pick carries or don't support with a support or troll or grief or some other shit but very few of the players that may cause you to lose a game, for the previous reasons, don't belong to your skill bracket.
well the hundreds of threads on dota dev forumss must be wrong then?? Not to mention a MASSIVE thread (I think over 100 pages) of match ID's with super imbalanced teams of 1500 games players teamed with 30 game players.. Guess they are all making this up?
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On July 17 2013 04:09 SnowfaLL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 18:34 Steveling wrote:
Why would I grind through 100's of games with noobs when volvo mm puts me in vh bracket after like 20 games of stomping.
How is iccup system any better than mm? but thats not the case; my last 5 games of "very high" bracket included 3 abandons, and people who literally a moved into towers. Go read the first 30 threads on the dota dev forums; the matchmaking system is SO broken its a joke; people with 900+ games getting paired with people with 20 games. The way MM currently works; it wants you to be 50% at every time. So what it does is if it sees someone winning a lot, it matches them with the lowest players in an effort for "High skilled players can teach newbies" - but it really ends up being one person who may be great, playing with 4 newbies vs 5 decently-solid players.. And if you play dota at all, you know your only as strong as your weakest link. The way HoN ladder works (and im assuming LoL, since they have a very successful ladder) is it tries to balance out the team; if there are only 10 people searching and 2 are super low ranked compared to the other 8, it splits them up, rather than just putting them on the same team with the highest level player. That is the difference between a good matchmaking and whatever Valve calls this monstrosity.
None of the things you posted prove that MM is broken, it just shows that you don't understand how MM works, which is typical of people who complain about it. You mention anecdotal evidence but none of this evidence actually shows MM is broken under any scrutiny.
The way a proper MM works is: you win, you gain MMR; you don't, you lose MMR. That means that new players will always be roughly at the mean MMR level, which means that it's entirely possible that a player that has 900 games played with someone who is new, because the guy with 900 games played is about 450-450 and thus has not moved far from the starting MMR.
This means that number of games played or number of wins don't mean anything in a vacuum, despite what people like to believe. I would expect a guy who is 17-3 to have a much higher MMR than a guy who is 300-600.
The only reason he wouldn't is because the amount of MMR gained from winning outstrips what you lose by losing by a significant margin, which comes with its own problem: You don't have to be good to have high MMR, you just have to play a lot. I guarantee you that would get you far more imbalanced games than you have now.
Having near a 50% winrate is a GOOD thing for MMR, because if you are playing against people of your own skill level you should be winning about 50% of your games.
Furthermore, the idea that the matchmaking system puts 4 idiots together with you to enforce a 50% winrate is asinine. How do these idiots have around a 50% winrate if they're constantly put into unwinnable games like this? If Valve can determine who is actually good when their MMR is apparently just trying to enforce a 50% win rate, why don't they implement a better MMR? People who whine about MMR are just looking for an excuse for their losses.
The fact that you think LoL doesn't have the same stuff shows that you haven't spent an extended period of time in the community. They have their own term for what we call the trench: ELO Hell. It's where you get stuck at one area in the rankings because your teammates suck and you can't carry them. But the truth is you're just as bad as them, and good players made smurfs and/or intentionally crashed their ELO to low levels then worked their way back up to prove there's no such thing.
I don't know if HoN is any better, but I sincerely doubt it is.
PS: Appeal to popularity doesn't mean shit.
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On July 17 2013 12:41 TomatoBisque wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:09 SnowfaLL wrote:On July 16 2013 18:34 Steveling wrote:
Why would I grind through 100's of games with noobs when volvo mm puts me in vh bracket after like 20 games of stomping.
How is iccup system any better than mm? but thats not the case; my last 5 games of "very high" bracket included 3 abandons, and people who literally a moved into towers. Go read the first 30 threads on the dota dev forums; the matchmaking system is SO broken its a joke; people with 900+ games getting paired with people with 20 games. The way MM currently works; it wants you to be 50% at every time. So what it does is if it sees someone winning a lot, it matches them with the lowest players in an effort for "High skilled players can teach newbies" - but it really ends up being one person who may be great, playing with 4 newbies vs 5 decently-solid players.. And if you play dota at all, you know your only as strong as your weakest link. The way HoN ladder works (and im assuming LoL, since they have a very successful ladder) is it tries to balance out the team; if there are only 10 people searching and 2 are super low ranked compared to the other 8, it splits them up, rather than just putting them on the same team with the highest level player. That is the difference between a good matchmaking and whatever Valve calls this monstrosity. None of the things you posted prove that MM is broken, it just shows that you don't understand how MM works, which is typical of people who complain about it. You mention anecdotal evidence but none of this evidence actually shows MM is broken under any scrutiny. The way a proper MM works is: you win, you gain MMR; you don't, you lose MMR. That means that new players will always be roughly at the mean MMR level, which means that it's entirely possible that a player that has 900 games played with someone who is new, because the guy with 900 games played is about 450-450 and thus has not moved far from the starting MMR. This means that number of games played or number of wins don't mean anything in a vacuum, despite what people like to believe. I would expect a guy who is 17-3 to have a much higher MMR than a guy who is 300-600. The only reason he wouldn't is because the amount of MMR gained from winning outstrips what you lose by losing by a significant margin, which comes with its own problem: You don't have to be good to have high MMR, you just have to play a lot. I guarantee you that would get you far more imbalanced games than you have now. Having near a 50% winrate is a GOOD thing for MMR, because if you are playing against people of your own skill level you should be winning about 50% of your games. Furthermore, the idea that the matchmaking system puts 4 idiots together with you to enforce a 50% winrate is asinine. How do these idiots have around a 50% winrate if they're constantly put into unwinnable games like this? If Valve can determine who is actually good when their MMR is apparently just trying to enforce a 50% win rate, why don't they implement a better MMR? People who whine about MMR are just looking for an excuse for their losses. The fact that you think LoL doesn't have the same stuff shows that you haven't spent an extended period of time in the community. They have their own term for what we call the trench: ELO Hell. It's where you get stuck at one area in the rankings because your teammates suck and you can't carry them. But the truth is you're just as bad as them, and good players made smurfs and/or intentionally crashed their ELO to low levels then worked their way back up to prove there's no such thing. I don't know if HoN is any better, but I sincerely doubt it is. PS: Appeal to popularity doesn't mean shit.
Good post. I'd add in this:
5 guys on the other team, 4 on yours + yourself. Chances are, the other team will have more retards than yours (assuming you aren't a retard). If you really do deserve to be at a higher MMR, you will get there eventually.
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One correction is that number of wins probably is taken into account, a sort of confidence factor. This can easily be observed if you create a smurf account. Even though I've had smurfs close to the mmr of my main acc I would only play vs accounts with few games (this is noteworthy because I assume most high rated accounts have many games played).
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On July 17 2013 12:41 TomatoBisque wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 04:09 SnowfaLL wrote:On July 16 2013 18:34 Steveling wrote:
Why would I grind through 100's of games with noobs when volvo mm puts me in vh bracket after like 20 games of stomping.
How is iccup system any better than mm? but thats not the case; my last 5 games of "very high" bracket included 3 abandons, and people who literally a moved into towers. Go read the first 30 threads on the dota dev forums; the matchmaking system is SO broken its a joke; people with 900+ games getting paired with people with 20 games. The way MM currently works; it wants you to be 50% at every time. So what it does is if it sees someone winning a lot, it matches them with the lowest players in an effort for "High skilled players can teach newbies" - but it really ends up being one person who may be great, playing with 4 newbies vs 5 decently-solid players.. And if you play dota at all, you know your only as strong as your weakest link. The way HoN ladder works (and im assuming LoL, since they have a very successful ladder) is it tries to balance out the team; if there are only 10 people searching and 2 are super low ranked compared to the other 8, it splits them up, rather than just putting them on the same team with the highest level player. That is the difference between a good matchmaking and whatever Valve calls this monstrosity. None of the things you posted prove that MM is broken, it just shows that you don't understand how MM works, which is typical of people who complain about it. You mention anecdotal evidence but none of this evidence actually shows MM is broken under any scrutiny. The way a proper MM works is: you win, you gain MMR; you don't, you lose MMR. That means that new players will always be roughly at the mean MMR level, which means that it's entirely possible that a player that has 900 games played with someone who is new, because the guy with 900 games played is about 450-450 and thus has not moved far from the starting MMR. This means that number of games played or number of wins don't mean anything in a vacuum, despite what people like to believe. I would expect a guy who is 17-3 to have a much higher MMR than a guy who is 300-600. The only reason he wouldn't is because the amount of MMR gained from winning outstrips what you lose by losing by a significant margin, which comes with its own problem: You don't have to be good to have high MMR, you just have to play a lot. I guarantee you that would get you far more imbalanced games than you have now. Having near a 50% winrate is a GOOD thing for MMR, because if you are playing against people of your own skill level you should be winning about 50% of your games. Furthermore, the idea that the matchmaking system puts 4 idiots together with you to enforce a 50% winrate is asinine. How do these idiots have around a 50% winrate if they're constantly put into unwinnable games like this? If Valve can determine who is actually good when their MMR is apparently just trying to enforce a 50% win rate, why don't they implement a better MMR? People who whine about MMR are just looking for an excuse for their losses. The fact that you think LoL doesn't have the same stuff shows that you haven't spent an extended period of time in the community. They have their own term for what we call the trench: ELO Hell. It's where you get stuck at one area in the rankings because your teammates suck and you can't carry them. But the truth is you're just as bad as them, and good players made smurfs and/or intentionally crashed their ELO to low levels then worked their way back up to prove there's no such thing. I don't know if HoN is any better, but I sincerely doubt it is. PS: Appeal to popularity doesn't mean shit.
I advise you go play HoN ladder for a bit to understand why what you just posted, is the WRONG way to do a "dota-style" ladder.
Yes, you are right, thats exactly how it works. And its a terrible way for this type of game. It works for single participant games like SC2, but in games where its 5 vs 5, you need to focus on balancing the teams properly, not fixating on a 50% winrate.. So basically, due to this system, if you are at 70% winrate, the system won't match you with harder opponents, but rather give you much worse teammates to "balance it out" - ending up in a game with feeders and eventually abandoners. in Dota, a team is only as strong as its weakest link, and when you have someone feeding a hard carry all game, it doesnt matter if you are Dendi or Loda, you will lose.
HoN, instead of matching the highest player with the lowest players in the game, actually has a final process called team balancing; its shown in their public lobby even.. Once you find 10 players, it tries to properly balance out the team so that it is a fair game; it simply doesnt just put the highest and lowest MMR together. Not to mention, in HoN, the "MMR" spread is much much better; you wont get someone whos 1800 matching with someone whos 1500 (ie new account) even with 1/6th the popularity of dota. Honestly, I rather take 20 minutes to find a game (which HoN takes less than 5 still) than play with completely new players who are going to feed another person and ruin the game.
Just face facts; the dota MMR is balanced around 5 man stacks, and for solo Q it's just completely garbage.
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It's not like you know the MMR of people in Dota, so how do you know that it's not using "team balance"?
How do you know people with 1800 are matched with someone at 1500?
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This is like opposite day. I got flamed hard for speaking English instead of Russian. My brain is full of fuck.
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On July 17 2013 19:49 Zocat wrote:
It's not like you know the MMR of people in Dota, so how do you know that it's not using "team balance"?
How do you know people with 1800 are matched with someone at 1500?
Know how we know? Dota patch incoming -
- Parties are more likely to be matched against other similarly sized parties.
- When matching parties, the matchmaker now also considers the minimum experience level on both teams rather than just the average.
- Reduced the average skill variance in games where there are 10 individual players.
- Fixed a bug in the matchmaker that was causing it to insufficiently segregate players based on win count.
- Fixed a bug that would cause excessive queue times, especially for large parties or high skill players.
So.. Valve says it themselves. Can you argue how great their MMR is now if they released a huge patch trying to fix it? And im sure this isnt' the end of the changes.
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Considering the current matchmaking issues it seem appropriate to bump this thread, since iCCup is working just fine. It's a good alternative to matchmaking if you don't mind russians.
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On July 24 2013 21:27 Alur wrote:
Considering the current matchmaking issues it seem appropriate to bump this thread, since iCCup is working just fine. It's a good alternative to matchmaking if you don't mind russians.
I think that everyone that plays Dota just loves Russians
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Iccup might have been great for Brood War, but I didn't appreciate them in SC2. It seemed like they kept forcing their different maps and tournament styles down everyone's mouth in order to be relevant. Even in non-iccup related SC2 stuff, I'd see them promoting themselves shamelessly.
Nowadays I feel like these types of systems just segregate the community and isn't healthy for the game. Valve shutdown dotabuff pretty hard as soon as they made their power play. Don't see Iccup ever getting relevant.
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On July 24 2013 22:09 Esc4toN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 21:27 Alur wrote:
Considering the current matchmaking issues it seem appropriate to bump this thread, since iCCup is working just fine. It's a good alternative to matchmaking if you don't mind russians. I think that everyone that plays Dota just loves Russians
I don't have much of a problem with them.
On July 25 2013 01:26 Gentso wrote:
Iccup might have been great for Brood War, but I didn't appreciate them in SC2. It seemed like they kept forcing their different maps and tournament styles down everyone's mouth in order to be relevant. Even in non-iccup related SC2 stuff, I'd see them promoting themselves shamelessly.
Nowadays I feel like these types of systems just segregate the community and isn't healthy for the game. Valve shutdown dotabuff pretty hard as soon as they made their power play. Don't see Iccup ever getting relevant.
Dotabuff revealed valve's own matchmaking ratings, iCCup is a seperate ladder. A more accurate comparison would be IXDL or CDEC in my opinion, granted there are some key differences, like iCCup running their own servers for it, which again is similar to http://d2ware.net/.
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On July 25 2013 01:52 Alur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 22:09 Esc4toN wrote:On July 24 2013 21:27 Alur wrote:
Considering the current matchmaking issues it seem appropriate to bump this thread, since iCCup is working just fine. It's a good alternative to matchmaking if you don't mind russians. I think that everyone that plays Dota just loves Russians I don't have much of a problem with them. Neither do I, just saying Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 01:26 Gentso wrote:
Iccup might have been great for Brood War, but I didn't appreciate them in SC2. It seemed like they kept forcing their different maps and tournament styles down everyone's mouth in order to be relevant. Even in non-iccup related SC2 stuff, I'd see them promoting themselves shamelessly.
Nowadays I feel like these types of systems just segregate the community and isn't healthy for the game. Valve shutdown dotabuff pretty hard as soon as they made their power play. Don't see Iccup ever getting relevant. Dotabuff revealed valve's own matchmaking ratings, iCCup is a seperate ladder. A more accurate comparison would be IXDL or CDEC in my opinion, granted there are some key differences, like iCCup running their own servers for it, which again is similar to http://d2ware.net/.
Yap, exactly what you said
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