EPTOffline vs Online: An Analysis of the LAN Advantage - Page 3
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Yoshi-
Germany10227 Posts
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On October 12 2013 00:36 Nevuk wrote: I think a better thing to do would have been to examine Puck, a hero who has been openly stated by some pro players to be picked more during LAN because the faerie dragon is so reliant on reaction time. Is his win% significantly higher on LAN, pick %, phase shift dodge %(though I don't know how you would measure this), average deaths notably lower, etc.? Watching the 1v1 tournament where Iceiceice and Mushi were on Puck mirrors makes it pretty clear than some of that stuff is basically impossible at anything besides extremely low pings (specifically iceiceice actually dodging orb a few times with level 1 phase shift's .25 second invulnerability, and even then it was something that was remarked upon as being extremely impressive). It's 0.75, not 0.25s. Just pointing that out :p | ||
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
could someone please explain me the gif? i never played shadow fiend - was that his regular ulti? (it looks like he vanishes and then comes back and takes a swipe) (im not familiar with the animation is all - i just figured out what is actually happening in the gif) if landing a skill in LAN is 1% more accurate than online, then landing all 4 skills might come to about 4% , and performing other actions like movement, csing, blinking, mekking might all add up to another 6%.... ....we could say that LAN games are roughly 10% more skilled from a spectators point of view  | ||
TheEmulator
28094 Posts
On October 12 2013 01:31 FFGenerations wrote: looking at puck is a cool idea could someone please explain me the gif? i never played shadow fiend - was that his regular ulti? (it looks like he vanishes and then comes back and takes a swipe) if landing a skill in LAN is 1% more accurate than online, then landing all 4 skills might come to about 4% , and performing other actions like movement, csing, blinking, mekking might all add up to another 6%.... ....we could say that LAN games are roughly 10% more skilled from a spectators point of view When sf dies he casts his ult, but only half of the souls. What happened in the gif is that Nyx was porting away with carapace on, and sf snuck up on him with Shadow Blade then he auto attacked nyx doing a massive crit on him with daedulus, but since carapace was up he essentially crit himself and died. Also a random magnus skewers in after but that isn't relevant to the gif, lol. | ||
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Bogeyman
Sweden307 Posts
There may be some relevancy, but I fail to see it explained in the article. If you bother responding TheEmulator, please be specific. | ||
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TheEmulator
28094 Posts
On October 12 2013 01:47 Bogeyman wrote: I don't see any relevancy in comparing human reaction times with the ping. No matter which is higher than the other, the time it takes for something to be able to be percieved to the moment when an action has been taken and been communicated to the game is a combination of the two, not one minus the other. There may be some relevancy, but I fail to see it explained in the article. If you bother responding TheEmulator, please be specific. I didn't write the article. So I won't bother responding, lol  If K-poptosis reads this he might respond. | ||
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Bogeyman
Sweden307 Posts
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zzdd
United States484 Posts
What should have been analyzed was the ability to disjoint targeted spells. This relies heavily on reaction more than prediction. Let's pretend LAN means no delay. If a storm hammer is coming my way and I want to blink to dodge it, I would first react to it, blink, and in a LAN situation I would immediately blink. However in the same situation with 100+ ping my blink is delay by that much more. It would make me more likely to be hit and it would be entirely out of my control. This is the reason why LAN is better. Anything you do is based on your own reaction more than any effect of latency. | ||
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
I think the most hilarious thing is the way Nyx is very obviously just chillin', and even looks to his left as mag comes in. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
I've had the misfortune of living in an area with sub-par ping times... between 200ms and 500ms are the norm until just this last year. And going from even 200ms to 20 ms is such a huge leap in accuracy and reaction time it is unbelievable. You may argue that equal lag is equal footing, but that discounts factors such as lag spikes and packet loss. And ultimately, the sport is a display of skill, skill that is clearly lacking in a high ping environment. I would always choose the lower ping game to watch, and play, and consider a LAN the only level playing field. No matter what some companies may wish you to believe... | ||
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Efane
Russian Federation49 Posts
On October 12 2013 00:27 TheEmulator wrote: You already edited this into your other post asking for a fix, just be patient. You know people sleep and stuff so things can't always be fixed asap. Also, chill it's just a simple typo no need to go ssj over it. Thanks for spotting it though, but just ask nicely for a fix next time we don't mind. sowwy (>*_*<) its just really getting on my nerves since i see it every time i scroll down >< im new to posting, dun ban me, be gracious lol | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34498 Posts
On October 12 2013 23:51 Efane wrote: sowwy (>*_*<) its just really getting on my nerves since i see it every time i scroll down >< im new to posting, dun ban me, be gracious lol Saying things like 'please don't warn/ban me' results in automatic moderation on TL. You should edit that out. | ||
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HolyExlxF
United States256 Posts
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Yoshi~
New Zealand35 Posts
* Blinking away from Smoke gank * Stealing Ravage as Rubick while the spikes are travelling towards you * Pressing Phase Shift/BKB after NA backstab before the Impale lands * Hexing Storm Spirit after he flies onto you before he gets Vortex off There was one sick play (I think it was in TI3) where S4 Phase Shifted NA's Impale after Backstab and absolutely wrecked shit in that fight. You can say it's situational and whatnot all you like, but the fact is some heroes can only be pushed to their absolute limits with low ping. | ||
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teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
Because I'd hazard to guess the average level of team on Lan is significantly higher than it is online. Or is this looking at stats from a specific team or subset of teams? I'd be more interested to see the differences in statistics from specific teams. Because even if it might average out the same, there could be teams with drastically different stats online and offline. Even the more basic stats like team-fight participation. I could imagine a team might work differently when sitting next to eachother, and that's more interesting than landing a skill shot or not. ~ As for the stats on human reaction times I'm going to have to not really believe that it's relevant. For one having a high ping usually means you also have an unstable ping. And for another reaction times and delayed reactions would seem to me to be quite different thing to handle as a human being. And the issue with people playing with high ping has more to do with being accustomed to lower ping. This is something that no test will simulate. For example if you play counter-strike for the first time with 20 ms or 120 ms you might not be able to notice the difference and it won't affect your performance. If you play for 10 years, you can't compare the actions you are making to a test made about reaction times from people who are performing an action which they are untrained in. Of course there is a human limitation in how fast we can realistically react. But one must believe that you can't compare whatever test you perform on millions of people to the actions of someone who does it 8 hours a day for a decade. Because in the case of counter-strike it isn't all about 'when you see and when you react', you see, you make the action to move your mouse, and then you click. A flick-shot. And where you click in the flick shot trajectory is a difference between hitting a head and a wall, and if you're playing at a ping you are not accustomed to, you will miss that shot. People can bring up general studies all they want, but I guarantee that if you take a CS pro and let them play for an hour with 0 ping and for an hour with 100 ping. And you don't tell them which one is which, they will be able to identify it. The reaction time tests are bullshit, I've done them several times and you spend 30 minutes more with them and you'd get a higher score. | ||
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TomatoBisque
United States6290 Posts
On October 12 2013 01:38 TheEmulator wrote: When sf dies he casts his ult, but only half of the souls. What happened in the gif is that Nyx was porting away with carapace on, and sf snuck up on him with Shadow Blade then he auto attacked nyx doing a massive crit on him with daedulus, but since carapace was up he essentially crit himself and died. Also a random magnus skewers in after but that isn't relevant to the gif, lol. The Magnus's name is town portal expert, 100% relevant Also I would guess that the study saying only 0.1% of testers have reaction tests that low is a bit misleading, because progamers probably aren't a random sample due to the nature of the job. I would guess that a lot more than 0.1% of pros have reaction times faster than that. It's like saying "Only 0.1% of people can maintain this speed over a long period of time" as proof of a marathon runner's abilities. That number doesn't mean anything because the nature of the activity means that they're probably in that 0.1% | ||
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meniscus-
Thailand26 Posts
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Bogeyman
Sweden307 Posts
On October 13 2013 07:21 Yoshi~ wrote: You don't take into account reaction times, which are pretty important and game impacting too. There's some things that are impossible without LAN ping: * Blinking away from Smoke gank * Stealing Ravage as Rubick while the spikes are travelling towards you * Pressing Phase Shift/BKB after NA backstab before the Impale lands * Hexing Storm Spirit after he flies onto you before he gets Vortex off There was one sick play (I think it was in TI3) where S4 Phase Shifted NA's Impale after Backstab and absolutely wrecked shit in that fight. You can say it's situational and whatnot all you like, but the fact is some heroes can only be pushed to their absolute limits with low ping. The one I remember is when S4 Phase Shifted Unstable Concoction, which was cast from a pretty close range. It's kind of funny, as this time in Starladder XBOCT went up point blank and cast it so S4 wouldn't do that again. edit: these were, of course, cast by a shadow bladed Alchemist | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On October 13 2013 22:46 meniscus- wrote: With real LAN functionality, we might see a difference. Dota 2 LANs were just everyone connecting to Dota 2 servers anyway. No it's not. All you need to do is auth with steam, it's completely local otherwise | ||
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