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So I've been playing a good bit of Diablo 3 with some friends and everyone seems to be asking the question about what their stats should be like. I have a DemonHunter friend with 100k damage and 500k toughness farming Expert. A Wizard friend with 90k damage and 300k toughness farming Torment 2. Who's right?
Well, let's start the discussion here. As OP, I put together what I know and update as we get more info together. My experience is SoftCore, so my goal is to reduce the amount of dying, not necessarily eliminate it 100%. For Hardcore, you are obviously going to need higher levels of toughness and gear in general to farm the same tiers consistently.
For reference, I mostly play a whirlwind barb:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/JermStudDog-1851/hero/9328365
General Rules
The things I use to gauge if I should be running a torment tier or if it is too hard.
Toughness/Health:
Any class should be able to run through a few poison pools, get out of a frozen area without dying, and take a melee hit or two from most elites of the current tier. If any of these things are able to one-shot you, get more health and toughness. Overall, lean heavier toward armor/all resists than health as it also increases the effectiveness of your healing.
Healing:
You usually have to play for a few minutes to see if you are healing enough to farm a torment tier, 2-4 elite packs will tell me if I've got enough as a whirlwind barb. The difference between healing and toughness is that after your HP gets low, it will become nearly impossible to regenerate back to full without waiting around for potion cooldowns.
Damage:
My rule of thumb is: "can I kill a goblin in solo mode?" If not, why are you here?
Torment I
Having run at least 3 different characters and classes through Torment 1 now, I am pretty confident in saying that any character with 60k health, 500k toughness and a bit of healing should be able to run Torment 1 with ease. The lowest damage I have had on any of these characters is 40k, but even that works just fine.
Your goal throughout your torment 1 farming career should be to upgrade your damage without sacrificing your health and toughness in general. Anything below 40k health risks being 1-shot by random damage and anything below 500k toughness seems to erratic to consistently stay alive.
Torment II
Toughness:
This is where melee and ranged classes really start to differ. As ranged, once you have a solid amount of damage (100k), you can get away with toughness numbers as low as 400k and be fine throughout torment 2. As melee, you are going to want to be looking at 600-700k in Torment II.
Health:
For health, the same 60k rule seems to be safe and enough to keep you from ever dying.
Healing:
Healing still shouldn't be much of an issue as long as you have plenty of armor and resist all, so 500 LoH would be a safe minimum here.
Damage:
For damage, a minimum of 80k should be enough to farm quickly and efficiently in T2. Anything lower than that really struggles to kill elites in a meaningful time frame.
Torment III
My current tier of farming.
Toughness:
I started T3 at around 800k toughness and things were fine. I am currently up to about 1.1 mil and things are better. Damage taken is very smooth and I never die without being an idiot. As ranged, you should be able to get away with 500-600k
Health:
60k was still working for a minimum amount of health. As I have farmed through T3, my health has gone up to 100k though. Not that I am trying to go up, just that things have a lot of vitality now.
Healing:
T3 is where I first started to struggle with healing. I have put aside Life Steal in favor of the new items, and things just put out too much consistent damage to get by with the 500 LoH I was running with through T1 and 2. Luckily, I picked up a few nice legos and am currently sitting around 1300 LoH. I would call 1k LoH a solid minimum to get started on this tier as melee. If you are ranged, you can probably get away with 500 LoH or some solid regen.
Damage:
As the torment levels go higher, I started noticing the difference between trash and elites more and more. In order to kill elites in a timely manner, I consider 100k to be the minimum here.
Torment IV
Toughness:
Currently sitting around 1.1mil, and my toughness feels fine. The big difference between T3 and T4 for me is that healing is hard to come by. Set minimum toughness at 1mil for melee, 700k for ranged.
Health:
60k simply doesn't cut it anymore. 80k should be workable, I was at about 100 by the time I started.
Healing:
With 1300 LoH, I still don't feel consistent enough to farm T4 with ease. I'm sure that would be enough for ranged classes, but as a melee fighter, you need high LoH. Health globe bonuses and regen can actually make life a lot easier so don't completely ignore them. I would say 1k for ranged and 1.5k LoH for melee.
Damage:
I currently have 135k damage and it is enough to kill elite packs, but not quite enough to kill goblins by myself. I would think 140k should be a good amount, but I will leave the specific details to someone who farms T4 more consistently than me.
Most people who are farming T4 are doing so with 200k+ damage, so that might be a better breakpoint as elite packs have a considerable amount of health and damage. The faster they die, the better.
Torment V & VI
I currently don't have gear good enough to try either of these tiers with any sort of consistency. Anyone else who has been working on these feel free to comment and I will update with your numbers.
This is where Damage really needs to shine above toughness and as you have more damage, you can usually get away with less toughness.
Those who have responded with farming in the T5 mostly seem to be in the 250k+ range.
For T6, it seems like 350-400k is needed to farm it comfortably.
Happy Hunting!
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China6329 Posts
My DH is 220k/700k and she runs Torment IV well, Wizard 270k/700k buffed and is on Torment IV as well.
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My god you have a crap-load of damage.
Are you using lifesteal or not? And if no, what is your LoH like?
edit: OP updated with your input btw 
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Some legendary procs combined with the right +Damage modifiers like +%Physical, +%Elemental can turn low paperdoll DPS into very high DPS.
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I agree, but that makes it hard to set a baseline.
I, for instance, have a Thunderfury and the proc on that thing is responsible for at least 20-30% of my DPS.
Paperdoll vs real DPS is something that each player will have to be responsible for considering themselves, there is no easy way to compare two different characters if considering the possibility that 50+% of their damage is coming from bonus skill damage and procs.
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stat sheet DPS never was a reliable measurement of kill speed (differences between classes, SoJ, IAS vs Crit, etc.) and with patch 2.0.1 got almost irrelevant.
like RCMDVA said there are so many affixes that won't be reflected in your paper DPS (and he even forgot area damage), and especially +% damage to elemental skills is a huge modifier. some legendaries totally change the game, for example kridershot (dh bow) changes elemental arrow into a hatred generator. in my case i lost almost a third (90k) of my stat dps equiping it over my legacy manticore, but my kill speed has gotten way faster. my generator now deals 300% AOE weapon damage instead of ~150% single target and my spender deals 540% instead of 300%.
that said i am sitting at 220k paper dps right now, and torment 1 is the highest difficulty i find bearable. different people want different things from the game. some want to farm the most XP (any torment level), some want a challenge (highest torment level). others want to find as many legendaries as possible (normal, or the highest difficulty where you one-shot things).
personally, i want to fly (145% movespeed) from elite to elite and nuke each in a matter of 2–5 seconds. that's the most fun for me. i encourage everyone to simply try out the difficulties and find what's fun and comfortable for you. there are no penalties attached (as long as you play softcore). you can't get behind in any economy anymore, and you will be rewarded with upgrades regardless of difficulty.
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China6329 Posts
On March 11 2014 23:14 Jermstuddog wrote:My god you have a crap-load of damage. Are you using lifesteal or not? And if no, what is your LoH like? edit: OP updated with your input btw
I only have like one piece of LoH gear with Paragon points at defensive put into LoH, plus the last 10% Life Steal that still works, so with my over 2.5 million Cluster Arrow/Meteor crits I can still heal quite a lot, plus most elites die in like 30 seconds so as long as I don't get cornered it really doesn't matter that much.
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100k dps for t3 seems a bit low, although it depends on builds, playstyle, farming routes, solo/party play etc. I started being confident in t3 at ~300k sheet dps (wizard), before that I couldn't kill elites fast enough to be safe... some combinations of monster type and affixes are just super dangerous.
Right now I'm farming t4 solo with 437k dps and 1mil toughness, but still, my survivability depends more on elites' types and affixes than on my gear. Like, Weeping Hollow is much safer than KD2 in act III.
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My wizard is at 360-420k dps depending on gear/skillset. Toughness also varies between 600k and 1.1m. I do cath 4 with ease on T6, and cota as well. I generally skip elites on T6 because they aren't worth it(not that I can't kill them, it just takes a couple minutes of kiting and with certain affixes it's too difficult).
Monk was at 220k dps, but has since gone down because he needs so much to survive on anything much past T2. Nowhere close to as tanky as I'd like him to be.
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So how is your experience in HC?
I've got a wizard with 130k dps selfbuffed and roundabout a million toughness and T1 seems too easy while never close to threatening, T2 is about the same, though certain packs and bosses take a while.
I attribute this mainly to my specc though (electricute/familiar/paralysis + frozenorb with timebubble seems broken at times).
Ive also got a monk thats just recently hit 60, sitting around 1,6m toughness and 65k dmg and Torment 1 is very doable without ever coming close to being risky.
But as is the nature of HC, im a little scared to try out the higher torments before having geared up a bit more.
Im really interested in other people farming Torment on HC.
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I´m running both my monk with 190k dps, 700k ehp and 7800 healing and my wiz with 300k dps, 500k ehp and ~800 healing on T3 atm and it feels at least pretty efficient. I rarely die and don´t take more than around 30sec for elite.
On T4 it already started to get more difficult to kill them fast enough to not die to the barrage of ground effects and on some nasty affixes i died a couple of times so i would say that was not efficient.
Edit: Monk has 60k life, wiz 50k btw
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my SB/bears wd has 238k dps and 850k ehp and can comfortably farm t5 act1 and t4 in all other acts. t5 is certainly possible in acts 2 and 3 though...
for cota farming and stuff like that, t6 is also quite easily possible.
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On March 12 2014 01:56 zuqbu wrote:
personally, i want to fly (145% movespeed) from elite to elite and nuke each in a matter of 2–5 seconds. that's the most fun for me. i encourage everyone to simply try out the difficulties and find what's fun and comfortable for you. there are no penalties attached (as long as you play softcore). you can't get behind in any economy anymore, and you will be rewarded with upgrades regardless of difficulty.
This is true. I found a bunch of +fire skills and a cindercoat on my wizard so I'm using a meteor shower build. With around 130k dps and 600k toughness, I'm playing torment 3. The skill just lends itself to half-kiting/half-tanking mobs while waiting for the meteors to land.
On my DH, I have slightly higher paper sheet dps and toughness than the wizard but I'm only playing torment 1. I'm using multishot as my hatred spender. If I choose to give cluster arrow a whirl, I might bump it to torment 2-3.
Some skills just lend themselves into mowing down large groups of enemies fast. Some skills have higher sustained damage. Adjust your torment difficulty based on what you feel like playing.
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true that. in the long run, the only tradeoff to make is between lower difficulties that yield more drops per hour but less exp, or higher difficulties which are vice versa.
so if your goal is exp -> farm the highest torment you can.
if your goal is loot -> farm T1
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On March 12 2014 17:34 Mattes wrote:
So how is your experience in HC?
I've got a wizard with 130k dps selfbuffed and roundabout a million toughness and T1 seems too easy while never close to threatening, T2 is about the same, though certain packs and bosses take a while.
I attribute this mainly to my specc though (electricute/familiar/paralysis + frozenorb with timebubble seems broken at times).
Ive also got a monk thats just recently hit 60, sitting around 1,6m toughness and 65k dmg and Torment 1 is very doable without ever coming close to being risky.
But as is the nature of HC, im a little scared to try out the higher torments before having geared up a bit more.
Im really interested in other people farming Torment on HC.
farming t2 now with 82k dps and 1.4 mil toughness on a DH
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maybe im too paranoid... i haven't really tried to go beyond t1 on my 150k/1.3m buffed wiz. do you guys think blur is an absolute necessity for HC or can i get away with just teleport/unstable anomaly? i think doing area runs are pretty boring without nephalem valor so i've just been doing full clear, but i'm too lazy to change the difficulty and i think different parts of the acts can jump in difficulty so i don't really want to leave it on t2 or higher
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One question I'm wondering is for people who can do T6 comfortably on melee WITHOUT lifesteal, what kind of stats are you running.
My monk is running ~220k sheet dps(no buffs because monk), 1.3m toughness(900AR, 5k armor) and 12k healing(130 LPSS, 2k LoH/LPS, 5kLoK) and I still can't keep up with the damage on T6 without resorting to a shield.
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You are setting the baseline too high imo
I have a barb that's 155k dps 380k toughness and only 36k hp that have no issue playing up to T3. It's the old school rend build.
There's also major difference between classes, for example a wizard with 100k dps 500k toughness will have no issue playing on T3 onwards, yet the same numbers on a barb is just incomparable. The damage output on the wizard is way higher than the barb which makes life easier on the wiz.
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On March 12 2014 17:34 Mattes wrote:
So how is your experience in HC?
I've got a wizard with 130k dps selfbuffed and roundabout a million toughness and T1 seems too easy while never close to threatening, T2 is about the same, though certain packs and bosses take a while.
I attribute this mainly to my specc though (electricute/familiar/paralysis + frozenorb with timebubble seems broken at times).
Ive also got a monk thats just recently hit 60, sitting around 1,6m toughness and 65k dmg and Torment 1 is very doable without ever coming close to being risky.
But as is the nature of HC, im a little scared to try out the higher torments before having geared up a bit more.
Im really interested in other people farming Torment on HC.
I only play Hardcore, but I am a very casual player and sometimes I go a few months without playing at all.
I am currently on Torment I, with about 120K life, 1200K toughness, and 85K DPS buffed on paper. Soloing is too slow and I run Master if I'm on my own, but with other people Torment I is very comfortable. I am very survival oriented.
I run with blizzard + disintegrate because I have a bunch of items with +damage on those skills, but I'm curious about your build?
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Do any of you guys got any updates after RoS? :D Im currently playing my Crusader HC and im tempted to try out torment but im affraid to die. How much Toughness/DPS do you guys get through with? This is my character: Armory
The build im using right now is just for fast farming on lower difficulties. I got plans on trying this build later today: Divine Warrior Build
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EPT
