|
So I am in act 1 inferno and started farming Halls of Agony, Warden and Butcher. Everywhere I read that one needs MF gear to do that effectively. Supposedly you have a much higher chance on getting rare (yellow) or legendary item drops when switching to it before the kill. I got some cheap MF gear (+147 %) to try it out.
For 4 runs (complete quest 9) I wrote down the number of yellows I got for each boss or elite kill while wearing or not wearing MF gear.
This is the average number of yellows I got per kill (in brackets number of kills):
Butcher with MF: 2.5 (2)
Butcher without MF: 3 (2)
Warden with MF: 2 (2)
Warden without MF: 2.5 (2)
Elite pack with MF: 0.875 (16, 10 of those with 5 stacks Neph valor)
Elite pack without MF: 0.65 (17, 7 of those with 5 stacks Neph valor)
Of course the number of kills here is way too small to say anything conclusive. But this is at least highly suspicious to me. I would have expected to get at least twice the number of yellows with +147% MF on gear. Yet I could not observe any real difference. The small difference with the elite packs can be easily explained with the on average higher stack of Nephalem valor during the kills with MF gear.
Does anyone have bigger data for this? Has anyone ever made an extensive statistical analysis about the effects of MF gear on item drops in D3? Because all I could find was a lot of hearsay about how it "should" work.
If switching to MF gear does indeed not work, I REALLY would like to know that. Because as a barb it is a real hassle to switch without dying, and good MF gear is quite expensive.
|
On May 30 2012 22:07 Redox wrote:
But this is at least highly suspicious to me. I would have expected to get at least twice the number of yellows with +147% MF on gear. Yet I could not observe any real difference.
MF affects the probability of finding blue or above items. You should be summing blues and above for this kind of analysis. The way it affects yellows/set/legendaries are a bit more complicated to calculate than simply multiplying the numbers together.
Also like you said, your sample size is too small. I say do 30 runs at least to see if there is any difference.
|
I think your sample size is way too small to be significant. Even with tons of magic find in D2 you could do dozens of runs without getting a good drop from a boss. I don't know for sure how D3 magic find works, but D2 magic find worked like this:
If a mob had a base 1% chance to drop a magic item with no magic find and you had 100% magic find, now the mob had a 2% chance to drop a magic item. If you had 20% magic find it would be 1.2% chance to drop a magic item. I don't know for sure if the same formula was used in D3, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. Here is the D2 magic find info: classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/magic/magicfind.shtml
|
5 stack valor guarantees 2 yellow drops from bosses, aka warden and butcher (not Izual for some reason). Don't count that in. Testing with NV complicates things so much, you either take samples with only 5 stack NV or no NV at all.
And bigger sample size. I can take a sample size of 1 where a white trash mob drops a legendary item, but an elite doesn't, then QQ to the Blizz forums.
|
On May 30 2012 22:26 karazax wrote:I think your sample size is way too small to be significant. Even with tons of magic find in D2 you could do dozens of runs without getting a good drop from a boss. I don't know for sure how D3 magic find works, but D2 magic find worked like this: If a mob had a base 1% chance to drop a magic item with no magic find and you had 100% magic find, now the mob had a 2% chance to drop a magic item. If you had 20% magic find it would be 1.2% chance to drop a magic item. I don't know for sure if the same formula was used in D3, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. Here is the D2 magic find info: classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/magic/magicfind.shtml
Can anyone confirm that the MF diminishing return formula on rare/set/uniques are still in place for D3?
|
On May 30 2012 22:20 Glacierz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 22:07 Redox wrote:
But this is at least highly suspicious to me. I would have expected to get at least twice the number of yellows with +147% MF on gear. Yet I could not observe any real difference.
MF affects the probability of finding blue or above items. You should be summing blues and above for this kind of analysis. The way it affects yellows/set/legendaries are a bit more complicated to calculate than simply multiplying the numbers together. Also like you said, your sample size is too small. I say do 30 runs at least to see if there is any difference.
Number of blues:
Elite packs with MF: 1.29 (17 kills)
Elite packs without MF: 2.06 (16 kills).
So the overall number of dropped items was even much higher when NOT wearing MF gear.
But you are right about the sample size. I was just hoping someone had something better. I just cant believe that noone has ever recorded his drops in D3 and examined this question.
Well or if noone has any real data, maybe you can share your experiences? I mean every farmer must have done kills with and without wearing his MF gear.
|
On May 30 2012 22:29 Heh_ wrote:
5 stack valor guarantees 2 yellow drops from bosses, aka warden and butcher (not Izual for some reason). Don't count that in. Testing with NV complicates things so much, you either take samples with only 5 stack NV or no NV at all.
So if 5 stacks of valor give 2 guaranteed drops, would 75% of MF from gear give the same? Or is there a diffrence between MF % from valor buff and from gear? Because this does just sound like it.
|
On May 30 2012 22:43 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 22:29 Heh_ wrote:
5 stack valor guarantees 2 yellow drops from bosses, aka warden and butcher (not Izual for some reason). Don't count that in. Testing with NV complicates things so much, you either take samples with only 5 stack NV or no NV at all.
So if 5 stacks of valor give 2 guaranteed drops, would 75% of MF from gear give the same? Or is there a diffrence between MF % from valor buff and from gear? Because this does just sound like it.
No, valor gives 2 rares by default, 75% MF does not guarantee anything, only guarantee bigger chance.
|
On May 30 2012 22:44 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 22:43 Redox wrote:On May 30 2012 22:29 Heh_ wrote:
5 stack valor guarantees 2 yellow drops from bosses, aka warden and butcher (not Izual for some reason). Don't count that in. Testing with NV complicates things so much, you either take samples with only 5 stack NV or no NV at all.
So if 5 stacks of valor give 2 guaranteed drops, would 75% of MF from gear give the same? Or is there a diffrence between MF % from valor buff and from gear? Because this does just sound like it. No, valor gives 2 rares by default, 75% MF does not guarantee anything, only guarantee bigger chance.
Source?
|
On May 30 2012 22:47 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 22:44 bgx wrote:On May 30 2012 22:43 Redox wrote:On May 30 2012 22:29 Heh_ wrote:
5 stack valor guarantees 2 yellow drops from bosses, aka warden and butcher (not Izual for some reason). Don't count that in. Testing with NV complicates things so much, you either take samples with only 5 stack NV or no NV at all.
So if 5 stacks of valor give 2 guaranteed drops, would 75% of MF from gear give the same? Or is there a diffrence between MF % from valor buff and from gear? Because this does just sound like it. No, valor gives 2 rares by default, 75% MF does not guarantee anything, only guarantee bigger chance. Source?
Well, don't know if it counts, but I've beaten Kulle in Act 2 several times with more than 80% MF (no stacks) and I've never gotten a yellow from him.
|
On May 30 2012 22:49 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 22:47 Redox wrote:On May 30 2012 22:44 bgx wrote:On May 30 2012 22:43 Redox wrote:On May 30 2012 22:29 Heh_ wrote:
5 stack valor guarantees 2 yellow drops from bosses, aka warden and butcher (not Izual for some reason). Don't count that in. Testing with NV complicates things so much, you either take samples with only 5 stack NV or no NV at all.
So if 5 stacks of valor give 2 guaranteed drops, would 75% of MF from gear give the same? Or is there a diffrence between MF % from valor buff and from gear? Because this does just sound like it. No, valor gives 2 rares by default, 75% MF does not guarantee anything, only guarantee bigger chance. Source? Well, don't know if it counts, but I've beaten Kulle in Act 2 several times with more than 80% MF (no stacks) and I've never gotten a yellow from him.
That would kinda reinforce my suspicion that the MF from items does not work. 
That is indeed the kind of info I was looking for.
|
On May 30 2012 22:51 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 22:49 Tobberoth wrote:On May 30 2012 22:47 Redox wrote:On May 30 2012 22:44 bgx wrote:On May 30 2012 22:43 Redox wrote:On May 30 2012 22:29 Heh_ wrote:
5 stack valor guarantees 2 yellow drops from bosses, aka warden and butcher (not Izual for some reason). Don't count that in. Testing with NV complicates things so much, you either take samples with only 5 stack NV or no NV at all.
So if 5 stacks of valor give 2 guaranteed drops, would 75% of MF from gear give the same? Or is there a diffrence between MF % from valor buff and from gear? Because this does just sound like it. No, valor gives 2 rares by default, 75% MF does not guarantee anything, only guarantee bigger chance. Source? Well, don't know if it counts, but I've beaten Kulle in Act 2 several times with more than 80% MF (no stacks) and I've never gotten a yellow from him. That would kinda reinforce my suspicion that the MF from items does not work. That is indeed the kind of info I was looking for.
Honestly, that's not the kind of information you should be looking for. You should be looking for something like "I did 50 butcher runs with 5 stacks of NV and got X blues, Y yellows and Z legendaries, then did 50 butcher runs with +150% MF and 5 stacks of NV and got X blues, Y yellows and Z legendaries". Something like "I did that boss a few time with MF and got nothing" doesn't actually mean that much.
|
One stack of valor guarantees one extra magical item, and 4 stacks gives one guaranteed rare, 5 stacks two guaranteed rares. Tome of Secret count as a magical item. With 5 stacks you should get five extra drops from "boss monsters" like Warden or The Butcher.
Magic Find increases your chance of finding a magical item, I don't think it increases your chances of finding an item, only that the white items you find have a higher chance of being blue, or better.
|
Also if you look at the link I posted for Diablo 2 magic find, Blizzard considered 400% average, and 600% plus was good. Even with 600 then you were only boosting a mob with a 1% chance of having a magical item drop to having a 6% chance, not guaranteeing 6x as many magic items from a boss.
|
Against bosses with 5 stack of valor, you will notice that the bonus magical items seemingly appear out of nowhere, at the very end of the item drop spam. If you don't believe us, then go test it out yourself. Or do you want us to link a scientific paper in a peer-reviewed journal as proof?
|
Elite pack with MF: 0.875 (16, 10 of those with 5 stacks Neph valor)
Elite pack without MF: 0.65 (17, 7 of those with 5 stacks Neph valor)
Can you provide the items dropped per run in an excel format:
Run (no mf) - Loots
1 - 3
2 - 0
3 - 3
etc.
With that data, we can run a normality test and bootstrap / t-test the data and determine whether or not it's statistically significant.
|
On May 30 2012 22:51 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 22:49 Tobberoth wrote:On May 30 2012 22:47 Redox wrote:On May 30 2012 22:44 bgx wrote:On May 30 2012 22:43 Redox wrote:On May 30 2012 22:29 Heh_ wrote:
5 stack valor guarantees 2 yellow drops from bosses, aka warden and butcher (not Izual for some reason). Don't count that in. Testing with NV complicates things so much, you either take samples with only 5 stack NV or no NV at all.
So if 5 stacks of valor give 2 guaranteed drops, would 75% of MF from gear give the same? Or is there a diffrence between MF % from valor buff and from gear? Because this does just sound like it. No, valor gives 2 rares by default, 75% MF does not guarantee anything, only guarantee bigger chance. Source? Well, don't know if it counts, but I've beaten Kulle in Act 2 several times with more than 80% MF (no stacks) and I've never gotten a yellow from him. That would kinda reinforce my suspicion that the MF from items does not work. That is indeed the kind of info I was looking for.
it's not that simple, i remember for example that i heard in a developers talk about a year ago they dont want people to switch gear like in d2. it could be that they calculate it based of the items you wear when you entered the fight.
i watched kungens stream when they where doing goblin runs and they did it mainly with MF gear but also sometimes without and then there was a big difference in drops.
|
MF from Valor and MF from gears are difference at least in my experience. When I first started Butcher Inferno, with no NV stack I switch to 100+ MF at the end but the boss only drop blue.
Once I was able to farm him with 5 stacks of NV, 2 yellows are guaranteed, you get 3 yellows many times and sometime(very rare) a fourth yellow appear.
NV Magic Find>>> Item magic find, at least on boss fight.
|
On May 30 2012 23:19 Caphe wrote:
MF from Valor and MF from gears are difference at least in my experience. When I first started Butcher Inferno, with no NV stack I switch to 100+ MF at the end but the boss only drop blue.
Once I was able to farm him with 5 stacks of NV, 2 yellows are guaranteed, you get 3 yellows many times and sometime(very rare) a fourth yellow appear.
NV Magic Find>>> Item magic find, at least on boss fight.
yes, NV is way way better than an equivalent MF.
I saw it explained this way, both increase the chance of magic items dropping but NV ups the minimum amount that can drop as well, so you are guaranteed better loot.
EDIT: Looking at your example again, it looks like you only used NV when farming elites, in which case it should be the exact same as +magic find so it may not have mattered.
|
On May 30 2012 23:05 karazax wrote:
Also if you look at the link I posted for Diablo 2 magic find, Blizzard considered 400% average, and 600% plus was good. Even with 600 then you were only boosting a mob with a 1% chance of having a magical item drop to having a 6% chance, not guaranteeing 6x as many magic items from a boss.
We are not talking about mobs with 1 % drop chance here though.
If bosses (or elites) have a 1% chance of dropping additional loot and with 100 % MF I increase it to 2% chance, then switching to MF becomes totally pointless and I would stop doing it.
On May 30 2012 23:13 RAGEMOAR The Pope wrote:
Can you provide the items dropped per run in an excel format:
Run (no mf) - Loots
1 - 3
2 - 0
3 - 3
etc.
With that data, we can run a normality test and bootstrap / t-test the data and determine whether or not it's statistically significant.
Too lazy. Tbh I was more hoping someone else had such data or a link to it.
But I can tell you right away that my data would fail a t-test. 
On May 30 2012 23:24 rastaban wrote:
EDIT: Looking at your example again, it looks like you only used NV when farming elites, in which case it should be the exact same as +magic find so it may not have mattered.
I always had 5 stacks NV when doing the bosses, I only did complete runs.
|
On May 30 2012 23:26 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 23:05 karazax wrote:
Also if you look at the link I posted for Diablo 2 magic find, Blizzard considered 400% average, and 600% plus was good. Even with 600 then you were only boosting a mob with a 1% chance of having a magical item drop to having a 6% chance, not guaranteeing 6x as many magic items from a boss. We are not talking about mobs with 1 % drop chance here though. If bosses (or elites) have a 1% chance of dropping additional loot and with 100 % MF I increae it to 2% chance, then switching to MF becomes totally pointless and I would stop doing it.
Because twice the chances of rares/legendaries dropping (assuming it works exactly as in the example) isn't worth a few seconds to switch some gear around. To each his own I guess... I'll keep switching when the content is easy enough for me to do so.
|
On May 30 2012 23:19 Caphe wrote:
MF from Valor and MF from gears are difference at least in my experience. When I first started Butcher Inferno, with no NV stack I switch to 100+ MF at the end but the boss only drop blue.
Once I was able to farm him with 5 stacks of NV, 2 yellows are guaranteed, you get 3 yellows many times and sometime(very rare) a fourth yellow appear.
NV Magic Find>>> Item magic find, at least on boss fight.
Perhaps that is potential evidence that the magic find gear has to be on for the whole fight for it to work.
|
On May 30 2012 23:32 karazax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 23:19 Caphe wrote:
MF from Valor and MF from gears are difference at least in my experience. When I first started Butcher Inferno, with no NV stack I switch to 100+ MF at the end but the boss only drop blue.
Once I was able to farm him with 5 stacks of NV, 2 yellows are guaranteed, you get 3 yellows many times and sometime(very rare) a fourth yellow appear.
NV Magic Find>>> Item magic find, at least on boss fight. Perhaps that is potential evidence that the magic find gear has to be on for the whole fight for it to work.
No, that's evidence that NV stacks guaratee extra loot from bosses, not dependant of MF. They said so the first time they announced it.
|
On May 30 2012 23:26 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 23:05 karazax wrote:
Also if you look at the link I posted for Diablo 2 magic find, Blizzard considered 400% average, and 600% plus was good. Even with 600 then you were only boosting a mob with a 1% chance of having a magical item drop to having a 6% chance, not guaranteeing 6x as many magic items from a boss. We are not talking about mobs with 1 % drop chance here though. If bosses (or elites) have a 1% chance of dropping additional loot and with 100 % MF I increase it to 2% chance, then switching to MF becomes totally pointless and I would stop doing it. Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 23:13 RAGEMOAR The Pope wrote:
Can you provide the items dropped per run in an excel format:
Run (no mf) - Loots
1 - 3
2 - 0
3 - 3
etc.
With that data, we can run a normality test and bootstrap / t-test the data and determine whether or not it's statistically significant. Too lazy. Tbh I was more hoping someone else had such data or a link to it. But I can tell you right away that my data would fail a t-test. Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 23:24 rastaban wrote:
EDIT: Looking at your example again, it looks like you only used NV when farming elites, in which case it should be the exact same as +magic find so it may not have mattered. I always had 5 stacks NV when doing the bosses, I only did complete runs.
Even if it does fail a t-test, it still can have statistically meaningful info. Stop being lazy and help everyone else out.
|
On May 30 2012 23:30 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 23:26 Redox wrote:On May 30 2012 23:05 karazax wrote:
Also if you look at the link I posted for Diablo 2 magic find, Blizzard considered 400% average, and 600% plus was good. Even with 600 then you were only boosting a mob with a 1% chance of having a magical item drop to having a 6% chance, not guaranteeing 6x as many magic items from a boss. We are not talking about mobs with 1 % drop chance here though. If bosses (or elites) have a 1% chance of dropping additional loot and with 100 % MF I increae it to 2% chance, then switching to MF becomes totally pointless and I would stop doing it. Because twice the chances of rares/legendaries dropping (assuming it works exactly as in the example) isn't worth a few seconds to switch some gear around. To each his own I guess... I'll keep switching when the content is easy enough for me to do so.
I have seen so many people die occasionally when switching their gear. If this happens only 1 in 20 times you switch, it is clearly not worth it if you increase the drop chance from 1 to 2 % on a boss.
Add to that the insane prices people pay on the AH just to get an item with 1% more MF, wich would equate to 0,01 % more drop chance in that example.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
increased mf seems to help way more than "1% to 2%" on a boss. im doing ghom and siegebreaker (when i have manageable lag anyway) and anecdotal evidence from say 10 total runs says that 50% mf vs 200% mf is at least 2 yellows per kill.
of course mf helps way more on regular elite mobs
|
best thing about switching to MF gear is that when you die using MF gear, then your obligated to keep trying to switch to the MF gear because to show the mob who's boss
|
A lot of your assumptions are just plain wrong. The increased MF pays off in the long run after hundreds, even thousands, of runs. When people switch to MF gear, they're increasing their total increased MF from 0% to 100-200%. That's a ton more items that will be dropped.
If you don't believe that MF works, then don't do it. Leave the MF runs to people who believe that it does.
|
On May 30 2012 23:44 Heh_ wrote:
A lot of your assumptions are just plain wrong. The increased MF pays off in the long run after hundreds, even thousands, of runs. When people switch to MF gear, they're increasing their total increased MF from 0% to 100-200%. That's a ton more items that will be dropped.
If you don't believe that MF works, then don't do it. Leave the MF runs to people who believe that it does.
How are his assumptions any different from YOUR assumption that it does pay off.
Realistically, no one actually knows wether or not it does make a difference, and by how much. hence the point of this thread.
|
On May 30 2012 23:41 oneofthem wrote:
increased mf seems to help way more than "1% to 2%" on a boss. im doing ghom and siegebreaker (when i have manageable lag anyway) and anecdotal evidence from say 10 total runs says that 50% mf vs 200% mf is at least 2 yellows per kill.
of course mf helps way more on regular elite mobs
The 1% to 2% was just an example Blizzard provided most likely referring to normal mobs in D2. I suspect that bosses have a guaranteed chance of dropping x amount of magic items, and your magic find increases your chances of getting more than that, or of the blues being yellow or legendary. But of course this is all speculation on my part based on how it worked in D2.
|
I was actually also going to post about this. I have been doing Butcher runs all yesterday with no MF, and got 2 rares, sometimes a 3rd. So far today, I have been running Butcher with 200% mf from the start. Both of these kills using 5 stacks of NV. Today so far, I haven't seen a 3rd rare drop.
From what I can surmise, is that mf will greatly increase your blues and rares from normal and elite packs, but on bosses, you might as well just get the NV and go through with 0 mf, as the time difference can be used to start another run.
|
On May 30 2012 23:47 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 23:44 Heh_ wrote:
A lot of your assumptions are just plain wrong. The increased MF pays off in the long run after hundreds, even thousands, of runs. When people switch to MF gear, they're increasing their total increased MF from 0% to 100-200%. That's a ton more items that will be dropped.
If you don't believe that MF works, then don't do it. Leave the MF runs to people who believe that it does. How are his assumptions any different from YOUR assumption that it does pay off. Realistically, no one actually knows wether or not it does make a difference, and by how much. hence the point of this thread.
Because we're arguing about an imaginary number (1%) that Blizzard came up with to simplify explanations. Let's ignore all drop percentages, and talk about total drop numbers. If you found 1000 items with 0% MF gear, it could have been 2000 items with 100% MF gear. Sounds like a good deal to me.
The NV buff complicates things. AFAIK, it gives 15% increased MF per stack against non-bosses (elites included). It gives additional drops (3 magic, 2 rares for a 5-stack) against bosses.
|
On May 30 2012 23:55 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 23:47 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 30 2012 23:44 Heh_ wrote:
A lot of your assumptions are just plain wrong. The increased MF pays off in the long run after hundreds, even thousands, of runs. When people switch to MF gear, they're increasing their total increased MF from 0% to 100-200%. That's a ton more items that will be dropped.
If you don't believe that MF works, then don't do it. Leave the MF runs to people who believe that it does. How are his assumptions any different from YOUR assumption that it does pay off. Realistically, no one actually knows wether or not it does make a difference, and by how much. hence the point of this thread. Because we're arguing about an imaginary number (1%) that Blizzard came up with to simplify explanations. Let's ignore all drop percentages, and talk about total drop numbers. If you found 1000 items with 0% MF gear, it could have been 2000 items with 100% MF gear. Sounds like a good deal to me. The NV buff complicates things. AFAIK, it gives 15% increased MF per stack against non-bosses (elites included). It gives additional drops (3 magic, 2 rares for a 5-stack) against bosses.
Sure, but that assumes that switching gear before the kill does actually, ya know, work. Which we dont know.
|
On May 30 2012 23:44 Heh_ wrote:
A lot of your assumptions are just plain wrong. The increased MF pays off in the long run after hundreds, even thousands, of runs. When people switch to MF gear, they're increasing their total increased MF from 0% to 100-200%. That's a ton more items that will be dropped.
If you don't believe that MF works, then don't do it. Leave the MF runs to people who believe that it does.
I dont believe that MF does not work, I just dont know. And if it works I dont know how exactly, which is something I am not alone with apparently.
Also, often knowledge is better than belief.
I just assumed there would be more hard data on this, because normally you can find anything on the internet.
Guess I will just continue to try out and write down my drops.
|
On May 31 2012 00:00 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 23:44 Heh_ wrote:
A lot of your assumptions are just plain wrong. The increased MF pays off in the long run after hundreds, even thousands, of runs. When people switch to MF gear, they're increasing their total increased MF from 0% to 100-200%. That's a ton more items that will be dropped.
If you don't believe that MF works, then don't do it. Leave the MF runs to people who believe that it does. I dont believe that MF does not work, I just dont know. And if it works I dont know how exactly, which is something I am not alone with apparently. Also, often knowledge is better than belief. I just assumed there would be more hard data on this, because normally you can find anything on the internet. Guess I will just continue to try out and write down my drops.
There is almost no data about anything People discovered 30% dmg reduction on melee class from loading screen lol. Well some were in Brady Games guide, but only owners of it had knowledge of it.
MF was documented in D2 and maybe when dataminers will finally start to work on D3 we will get concrete lists of how stat X affect X etc.
about 60% of game mechanics are completely unknown, and no one is really eager to speak of.
|
From 50 Whimsyshire Inferno elite packs with 299% MF (swapped right before killing), I got rares from 38 of them.
With 75% MF from another 50 packs, I got rares from 13 of them.
I'm going to keep swapping in MF gear.
|
On May 31 2012 00:00 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 23:55 Heh_ wrote:On May 30 2012 23:47 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 30 2012 23:44 Heh_ wrote:
A lot of your assumptions are just plain wrong. The increased MF pays off in the long run after hundreds, even thousands, of runs. When people switch to MF gear, they're increasing their total increased MF from 0% to 100-200%. That's a ton more items that will be dropped.
If you don't believe that MF works, then don't do it. Leave the MF runs to people who believe that it does. How are his assumptions any different from YOUR assumption that it does pay off. Realistically, no one actually knows wether or not it does make a difference, and by how much. hence the point of this thread. Because we're arguing about an imaginary number (1%) that Blizzard came up with to simplify explanations. Let's ignore all drop percentages, and talk about total drop numbers. If you found 1000 items with 0% MF gear, it could have been 2000 items with 100% MF gear. Sounds like a good deal to me. The NV buff complicates things. AFAIK, it gives 15% increased MF per stack against non-bosses (elites included). It gives additional drops (3 magic, 2 rares for a 5-stack) against bosses. Sure, but that assumes that switching gear before the kill does actually, ya know, work. Which we dont know.
You can do MF runs wearing the gear itself, without switching. Sure it will result in a slower killing rate, but the total increased MF far outweighs it.
On May 31 2012 00:00 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 23:44 Heh_ wrote:
A lot of your assumptions are just plain wrong. The increased MF pays off in the long run after hundreds, even thousands, of runs. When people switch to MF gear, they're increasing their total increased MF from 0% to 100-200%. That's a ton more items that will be dropped.
If you don't believe that MF works, then don't do it. Leave the MF runs to people who believe that it does. I dont believe that MF does not work, I just dont know. And if it works I dont know how exactly, which is something I am not alone with apparently. Also, often knowledge is better than belief. I just assumed there would be more hard data on this, because normally you can find anything on the internet. Guess I will just continue to try out and write down my drops.
Blizzard does not release the data about the drop rates of white mobs, elites and bosses, and how MF and NV alters them (more total items or switching whites for blues/yellows?). You could brute force test this out, but it'll take tens of thousands of kills, something which most people are too damn lazy to do.
|
Isnt the whole pointing of stacking MF to find items with better stats instead of finding more items?
-edit: i rather get 1 item with perfect stats then 10 items with crappy stats.
my 2 cents
|
United States1967 Posts
So I have pretty good MF gear, 205% base before NV, and I have to say that in the long run, not having MF and making sure you have 5 NV stack on for example butcher runs and focusing instead on dps/improving run time might be better. Of course ideally you'd want to have both MF and be able to do runs super fast, but that kind of gear is really expensive/hard to find.
|
Lol of course switching gear works... cant source but chests and drops are generated on kill/opening not on spawn.
|
United States1967 Posts
On May 31 2012 00:08 DMTsyncope wrote:
Isnt the whole pointing of stacking MF to find items with better stats instead of finding more items?
No, MF does not affect item quality, only chance to drop a magic item.
|
On May 31 2012 00:08 DMTsyncope wrote:
Isnt the whole pointing of stacking MF to find items with better stats instead of finding more items?
-edit: i rather get 1 item with perfect stats then 10 items with crappy stats.
my 2 cents
In D2 every magic item could be yellow/unique so when you get more magic items you get more chance for yellow/unique AFAIR at least. There were instances were white items almost stopped dropping if you gone +400 mf .
Im not sure how it works in D3. There is possibility it works on "item quality" and "item quantity" both.
|
On May 31 2012 00:09 TheMango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 00:08 DMTsyncope wrote:
Isnt the whole pointing of stacking MF to find items with better stats instead of finding more items? No, MF does not affect item quality, only chance to drop a magic item.
Are you sure? I found this on the diablo 3 wiki:
Magic Find in Diablo III
Magic Find increases the odds for found items (from monsters or objects) to be "higher quality". Higher quality items are more likely to be magical, rare, set, or legendary, with different odds for each type of item depending on the Monster Level dropping the item and the player's Magic Find percentage. Magic Find doesn't make items with higher item level to drop since monsters have a set of items they're capable of dropping (eg. the highest tier of items will only drop from monsters with Monster Level 63) nor does it increase the quantity of items dropped.
Source
|
United States1967 Posts
I think the 'higher quality' just means a higher tier, ie magic/rare instead of normal. I don't think it affects item stat rolls. I'm pretty sure on this, then again I don't have a blizzard source or anything to back me up :p
|
@DMT
Well it really depends you how word it, magic item (blue) is upgraded white/gray (non-magic) item. So it replaces white item with a magic item (upgrades them).
well anyway im probably wrong im off not my area of expertise
|
On May 31 2012 00:12 DMTsyncope wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 00:09 TheMango wrote:On May 31 2012 00:08 DMTsyncope wrote:
Isnt the whole pointing of stacking MF to find items with better stats instead of finding more items? No, MF does not affect item quality, only chance to drop a magic item. Are you sure? I found this on the diablo 3 wiki: Show nested quote +Magic Find in Diablo III
Magic Find increases the odds for found items (from monsters or objects) to be "higher quality". Higher quality items are more likely to be magical, rare, set, or legendary, with different odds for each type of item depending on the Monster Level dropping the item and the player's Magic Find percentage. Magic Find doesn't make items with higher item level to drop since monsters have a set of items they're capable of dropping (eg. the highest tier of items will only drop from monsters with Monster Level 63) nor does it increase the quantity of items dropped. Source
I was going to say the same thing but I believe he is referring to the stats themselves. While better MF might make that blue a yellow it wont mean that the 2 hander you find has 1000 instead of 900 dmg.
Ninja'd
|
In any case, on topic, if blizz really wants us to swap gear right before a boss kill, then they might aswell just calculate the mf from all items in your inventory. otherwise we need a new skillset called: Item Swapping During Fights... which would be lame imo.
|
On May 30 2012 23:55 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 23:47 Two_DoWn wrote:On May 30 2012 23:44 Heh_ wrote:
A lot of your assumptions are just plain wrong. The increased MF pays off in the long run after hundreds, even thousands, of runs. When people switch to MF gear, they're increasing their total increased MF from 0% to 100-200%. That's a ton more items that will be dropped.
If you don't believe that MF works, then don't do it. Leave the MF runs to people who believe that it does. How are his assumptions any different from YOUR assumption that it does pay off. Realistically, no one actually knows wether or not it does make a difference, and by how much. hence the point of this thread. Because we're arguing about an imaginary number (1%) that Blizzard came up with to simplify explanations. Let's ignore all drop percentages, and talk about total drop numbers. If you found 1000 items with 0% MF gear, it could have been 2000 items with 100% MF gear. Sounds like a good deal to me. The NV buff complicates things. AFAIK, it gives 15% increased MF per stack against non-bosses (elites included). It gives additional drops (3 magic, 2 rares for a 5-stack) against bosses.
I'm pretty sure having 100% magic find does not double the amount of magic items you find, the difference is far smaller than that.
|
Wait a second forgot about 1 thing, but if we recall that champion packs always drop 1-2 default magic items than MF works like that:
Champion drops 1 magic item and 3 white item.
Your MF rolls on magic item to potentially change it into rare+ and it rolls on white items to potentially change it into magic+ (but much lower chance to rare+ because its wider gap of quality).
??
|
That is how I suspect it works if they are still following D2 mechanics.
|
United States47024 Posts
On May 31 2012 00:26 bgx wrote:
Wait a second forgot about 1 thing, but if we recall that champion packs always drop 1-2 default magic items than MF works like that:
Champion drops 1 magic item and 3 white item.
Your MF rolls on magic item to potentially change it into rare+ and it rolls on white items to potentially change it into magic+ (but much lower chance to rare+ because its wider gap of quality).
??
This is my understanding as well. Similarly, NV causes bosses to drop 2 rares. You can't count those items toward your calculation of your % chance of finding magic items because those are fixed.
When you're calculating the # of magic drops from champion packs and estimating your % chance of getting a magic item, you have to subtract that 1 magic item from each champion pack that's getting auto-converted from a white. Magic find won't increase that number, which is why 100% magic find doesn't mean you double the number of magic items you get. If you're guaranteed to see 1 magic item on every champion pack, and then 1% of the time you see a second magic item, 100% magic find means that you're guaranteed to see 1 magic item, and then 2% of the time you'll see a second magic item.
|
Does anyone else hate the idea that you can swap in gear right before a killing blow? I think it is a dumb, unintended mechanic that I hope gets fixed somehow.
|
C'mon. All that starcraft APM needs to go somewhere!
(I used to do this to swap up to 200% MF before bosses and chests but then I stopped doing it to maximize the speed of my farming runs and also maintain sanity.)
|
Think I'l just sell my MF set now, only spent like 100k on it but after reading this thread it doesn't seem worth the hassle especially after dying once to 2k hp Skeleton King with my random stats MF set on...
|
Googled it, first suggestion.... :
http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Nephalem_Valor
TL;DR : Nephalem Valor guarantees that you will drop extra reward when killing bosses, on top of the extra MF it already gives.
You will find on reddit the exact numbers, I don't remember them.
I also read somewhere (but didn't see any proof so far) that the MF is checked upon seeing the mob/boss/elite, and not actually killing it, in order to prevent the "I switch gears at the last moment after having the mob down do 5 % of health in order to get the MF bonus".
Edit : Found the relevant thread on reddit : http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/u6e2p/nephalem_valor_some_data_on_boss_drop_rates/
|
Vatican City State334 Posts
I would expect not to see a decent change until something like 500% magic find, I'm presuming that's about 0.5% chance to get a better quality item. That's how I would program it anyway.
|
Who are the bosses in this game? I thought it was only 3 (SK, Spider, Butcher) in Act 1.
|
Given the design choices that Blizz has made in D3, it would not suprise me at all if the MF check was when you spot the mob.
|
On May 31 2012 02:11 andrewlt wrote:
Who are the bosses in this game? I thought it was only 3 (SK, Spider, Butcher) in Act 1.
The Warden is somehow considered a boss, although he doesn't have his personal dungeon. The easiest way to know if a certain enemy is a boss is using a new character. On the very first kill, bosses will drop 2-3 rare items along with a ton of other loot, but don't drop this much loot for subsequent kills unless you have the NV buff.
Or you could check achievements.
|
Been farming siegebreaker for quite a while, probably 20-30 times. Haven't recorded anything but switched always to MF gear just before killing. 287 mf with NV. Averaging somewhere between 3 and 4 rares. Never gotten 5, 2 very rarely about 10/60/30 between 2/3/4 rares, average would be something like 3.2 or something. Now I don't have any sort of control group in this but I'd bet all bosses have similar chance to drop rares, only the quality differs. If people are reporting something between 2-3 on average w/o mf, i'd say it makes a difference.
Also, with mf chances i'm getting rare out of elites in a3 is easily above 50%.
Now, if you'd want to compare drop rates, you should do it with 0 stacks. Much easier to see the difference when base is something like 0.5 rares/kill and MF affecting it all instead of having the 2 quaranteed rares screwing up the results.
|
On May 31 2012 01:38 Psyqo wrote:
Does anyone else hate the idea that you can swap in gear right before a killing blow? I think it is a dumb, unintended mechanic that I hope gets fixed somehow.
Why is it stupid? And why for any reason would you be against this? You must be against the concept of auction house too.
|
On May 31 2012 02:58 matiK23 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 01:38 Psyqo wrote:
Does anyone else hate the idea that you can swap in gear right before a killing blow? I think it is a dumb, unintended mechanic that I hope gets fixed somehow. Why is it stupid? And why for any reason would you be against this? You must be against the concept of auction house too.
because it makes lv60 mf gear worthless when u can just use shitty blues. they should remove it.
|
I think its part of skill to be able to switch MF gear with clutch timing. I first saw Trump do this and I was like "wtf this is awesome, I don't need to sacrifice stats for MF"
|
On May 31 2012 03:00 Nizaris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 02:58 matiK23 wrote:On May 31 2012 01:38 Psyqo wrote:
Does anyone else hate the idea that you can swap in gear right before a killing blow? I think it is a dumb, unintended mechanic that I hope gets fixed somehow. Why is it stupid? And why for any reason would you be against this? You must be against the concept of auction house too. because it makes lv60 mf gear worthless when u can just use shitty blues. they should remove it.
oh my dear you want powerful gears+mf?? Not everyone can afford that kind of luck you know.
|
On May 31 2012 03:11 Rowa wrote:
I think its part of skill to be able to switch MF gear with clutch timing. I first saw Trump do this and I was like "wtf this is awesome, I don't need to sacrifice stats for MF"
During the time you swap the gear the rare 1-shots you though, I don't see how it's even possible
|
On May 31 2012 03:35 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 03:00 Nizaris wrote:On May 31 2012 02:58 matiK23 wrote:On May 31 2012 01:38 Psyqo wrote:
Does anyone else hate the idea that you can swap in gear right before a killing blow? I think it is a dumb, unintended mechanic that I hope gets fixed somehow. Why is it stupid? And why for any reason would you be against this? You must be against the concept of auction house too. because it makes lv60 mf gear worthless when u can just use shitty blues. they should remove it. oh my dear you want powerful gears+mf?? Not everyone can afford that kind of luck you know.
If everyone can afford something then where is the excitement...
|
MF DOES NOT WORK AGAINST PURPLES/ BOSSES
they nerfed this because people were farming aspect of terror, a purple diablo mini boss in act 4 inferno. getting crazy gear because they would wear 180+ mf.
|
Is this confirmed? I dont see a reason to nerf MF on bosses, if only purples were the problem...
|
My question is, what do you do with MF on bosses when 5 stack nephalem makes them drop like 3 rares and 10 blues anyway?
|
On May 31 2012 03:11 Rowa wrote:
I think its part of skill to be able to switch MF gear with clutch timing. I first saw Trump do this and I was like "wtf this is awesome, I don't need to sacrifice stats for MF"
It is mainly part of the class you play. With a melee it is often impossible. With a wizard it is no big deal most of the time. You just kite like you kited before. It is just another point that makes farming for melees more difficult than for ranged.
I think it would be cool if you had to trade stats for mf. It would be an additional gear choice you have to make. And it might make farming content you already outgeared exciting again, because you would have to trade as much stats as possible for mf while barely being able to defeat the encounter.
|
On May 31 2012 03:45 Entertaining wrote:
MF DOES NOT WORK AGAINST PURPLES/ BOSSES
they nerfed this because people were farming aspect of terror, a purple diablo mini boss in act 4 inferno. getting crazy gear because they would wear 180+ mf.
source? this would be stooopid³ if mf plain doesnt work on on the biggest droppers.
|
A couple of points for your experiment:
MF calculates blue and above for drops, so calculate blue + yellows for your data.
You need a much better sample size.
Goodluck =]
|
What do you say about starting to record this? Just one simple rule, just calculate the amount of blue, rare and legendary drops from champions/bosses WHEN having 5 stacks of NV (Easier than 0 stacks) and change to MF gear at the end of a fight. If we would get a couple of thousand kills it would be relevant data.
|
In d2, 300% mf simply meant about 2%-3% better chance at having something good drop.
That means if it normally took you 100 runs to get something you isn't vendor, you now had 2-3 things you wouldnt vendor.
Of course, by not vendor I mean it was good enough for at least one of the builds amongst the 7 classes available.
And realistically you were killing Pindle which meant you had even less of a chance than that.
And you hadn't really stacked MF until you reached 400%-500%
And even then, even with a bot to do the runs a thousand times a day for a few years--you still couldn't get most items to drop in D3 (hence why people duped and hacked the game and hence why everything is now server based instead of singleplayer)
In other words--MF helps--but only of you dedicate not jst gear--but time as well.
|
I have 120 Act 4 purple/boss runs of data recorded at 0 stacks:
60 @ 15MF (4 gems, 24 white, 127 magic, 12 tomes, 0 rares)
30 @ 66MF (5 gems, 13 white, 61 magic, 5 tomes, 1 rare)
30 @ 103MF (3 gems, 8 white, 60 magic, 8 tomes, 1 rare)
Not sure what the takeaway is yet. Probably still low sample size?
I will continue to record data as I farm when my friends aren't on. If someone more statistically minded than me wants to look over the actual data, let me know how I can get it to you.. (Google doc that I can cut/paste into or something?)
|
On May 31 2012 05:40 Hold-Lurker wrote:
I have 120 Act 4 purple/boss runs of data recorded at 0 stacks:
60 @ 15MF (4 gems, 24 white, 127 magic, 12 tomes, 0 rares)
30 @ 66MF (5 gems, 13 white, 61 magic, 5 tomes, 1 rare)
30 @ 103MF (3 gems, 8 white, 60 magic, 8 tomes, 1 rare)
Not sure what the takeaway is yet. Probably still low sample size?
I will continue to record data as I farm when my friends aren't on. If someone more statistically minded than me wants to look over the actual data, let me know how I can get it to you.. (Google doc that I can cut/paste into or something?)
It seems like it's not doing much...
But then again, these are Lottery stats, you need a massive sample to really test it out.
|
Oh let me clarify, nephelum buff works against bosses/purples though. just not mf gear.
|
On May 31 2012 05:40 Hold-Lurker wrote:
I have 120 Act 4 purple/boss runs of data recorded at 0 stacks:
60 @ 15MF (4 gems, 24 white, 127 magic, 12 tomes, 0 rares)
30 @ 66MF (5 gems, 13 white, 61 magic, 5 tomes, 1 rare)
30 @ 103MF (3 gems, 8 white, 60 magic, 8 tomes, 1 rare)
Not sure what the takeaway is yet. Probably still low sample size?
I will continue to record data as I farm when my friends aren't on. If someone more statistically minded than me wants to look over the actual data, let me know how I can get it to you.. (Google doc that I can cut/paste into or something?)
Are the numbers averages?
|
Maybe someone should also start testing "while in MF gear from beginning to finish"?
|
I'm pretty sure D3 uses the same system as D2, items are generated when the monster is killed, so, switching gears works.
|
On May 31 2012 03:00 Nizaris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 02:58 matiK23 wrote:On May 31 2012 01:38 Psyqo wrote:
Does anyone else hate the idea that you can swap in gear right before a killing blow? I think it is a dumb, unintended mechanic that I hope gets fixed somehow. Why is it stupid? And why for any reason would you be against this? You must be against the concept of auction house too. because it makes lv60 mf gear worthless when u can just use shitty blues. they should remove it.
Lmfao wut. You're using your lvl 60 gear for the majority of the time to get 5 NV stacks vs minions with rage inducing affixes. Then you use it to kill the boss to get him to the point where you can switch to your MF gear for 3 seconds and you think it's worthless and blues have more power. Wow. Bad troll is bad.
|
I don't know how it works for diablo 3, but for diablo 2 the MF considred was only the one that you had when you kill the boss (and the MF of you mercenary would add with yours if he killed him).
The % of dropping item wasn't linear in function of you MF, but more like log.
Here is a post on a french forum explaining how it worked in diablo 2 (he looked to assembly code for that  ), you can find the informations about MF in D2 in it (if you don't speak frech I think google translate may do a decent job).
|
Catyoul
France2377 Posts
On May 31 2012 03:11 Rowa wrote:
I think its part of skill to be able to switch MF gear with clutch timing. I first saw Trump do this and I was like "wtf this is awesome, I don't need to sacrifice stats for MF"
At least for ranged classes it doesn't take any skill. Just remembering to switch at the end, open inventory, right click, right click, right click, right click, right click, right click, right click, right click,... It takes me less than a second to go from one gear to the other.
On May 31 2012 05:51 Entertaining wrote:
Oh let me clarify, nephelum buff works against bosses/purples though. just not mf gear.
That claim is going to need some serious source or proof.
Also, as kubiks reminded just above, magic find was NOT linear in d2. There is no particular reason they would have kept the same formula for d3 though. As there is no reason to believe it is linear either.
|
I tried switching to MF on kill/chest open for a while but it became tedious, so I just keep the MF on all the time amd switch it out only when I'm facing something I can't kill with it.
At least that way, even if MF is calculated on sight of the mob rather than on kill I'd still get it. :-P
|
Nephalem Valor and Magic Find are two separate things. NV adds loot to bosses. On top of aiding MF.
|
On May 31 2012 06:18 DDie wrote:
I'm pretty sure D3 uses the same system as D2, items are generated when the monster is killed, so, switching gears works.
Wouldn't that mean
-Random # generator for equipment/gold/potions/etc...
-MF(Random # generator) for each equipment piece
-Random # generator for stats on the piece
Example:
-Random # generator decides to give you a lvl 44 executioners axe, some potion, some gold, and a quiver
-MF(random # generator) tries to figure out if your lvl 44 axe is a grey, white, blue, yellow, green, brown/gold
-Random # generator tries to figure out the random attributes
And if I recall correctly, if there is no unique lvl 44 executioners axe, it doesn't simply make it a unique lvl 44 axe of a different kind but actually rerolls again until it doesn't roll a unique.
|
On May 31 2012 07:55 Fugue wrote:
I tried switching to MF on kill/chest open for a while but it became tedious, so I just keep the MF on all the time amd switch it out only when I'm facing something I can't kill with it.
At least that way, even if MF is calculated on sight of the mob rather than on kill I'd still get it. :-P
You also have to remember that farming a boss in D2 was very different than it is in D3
It would take you less than a 3 minutes to kill Mephisto with a sorceress due to teleport (assuming you memorized all permutations of the dungeon)
Which meant that you're expected to have killed Mephisto 15+ times in an hour (you lose time sorting, selling, repairing, etc...)
This was in hell mode. You can't do that here in D3 on Inferno. Just try "running past" a jailer/waller/mortar/etc... pack while trying not to get hit by the white mobs that are spawning on top of you/shotting from range/run faster than you
Instead the act bosses and the rare packs are simply cleared instead of being "farmed" in the way that Mephisto or Pindleskin was farmed. It's more similar to the (end of D2 practice) Baal runs and the Chaos Santuary runs where the goal was maximum number of item drops instead of highest lvl item drops. Clearing Baal and and the Chaos Sanctuary dropped a LOT of loot and gave tonnes of experience. It didn't have as a high a *possible* chance of items dropping (until you killed Baal/Diablo) because none of the mobs you killed were as high a lvl as pindle or mephisto. But since you killed more of them you got more drops in total.
|
Seems like it works for me. No empirical evidence, but in probably 20-25 siegebreaker runs I can say I've noticed a significant drop off the times I failed to get my MF gear on in time when finishing a champ. With MF gear on most mobs drop 1 or 2 rares, with no MF gear on I usually get all blues.
Like I said, I haven't been trying to compile stats, so I don't have factual numbers, but it's been consistent enough that I've noticed a trend.
|
On May 31 2012 10:05 Leyra wrote:
Seems like it works for me. No empirical evidence, but in probably 20-25 siegebreaker runs I can say I've noticed a significant drop off the times I failed to get my MF gear on in time when finishing a champ. With MF gear on most mobs drop 1 or 2 rares, with no MF gear on I usually get all blues.
Like I said, I haven't been trying to compile stats, so I don't have factual numbers, but it's been consistent enough that I've noticed a trend.
It's clearly worked on champion packs and resplendent chests, but I am still unsure about on boss/purple mobs such as Siegebreaker and Act 4 ghosts. The result seems distorted because of the Neph buff and it feels like we need a lot more meaningful numbers recorded to see if MF gear will increase drop rate from (as an example) 2.4 rares to 3.4 rares on average.
Also, I don't really understand the question directed toward my results from before - the data is in aggregate, not averaged (e.g., over 60 runs on a particular boss w/ 15MF and 0 Neph stacks, I got 127 magic drops from the boss)
|
On May 31 2012 10:41 Hold-Lurker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 10:05 Leyra wrote:
Seems like it works for me. No empirical evidence, but in probably 20-25 siegebreaker runs I can say I've noticed a significant drop off the times I failed to get my MF gear on in time when finishing a champ. With MF gear on most mobs drop 1 or 2 rares, with no MF gear on I usually get all blues.
Like I said, I haven't been trying to compile stats, so I don't have factual numbers, but it's been consistent enough that I've noticed a trend. It's clearly worked on champion packs and resplendent chests, but I am still unsure about on boss/purple mobs such as Siegebreaker and Act 4 ghosts. The result seems distorted because of the Neph buff and it feels like we need a lot more meaningful numbers recorded to see if MF gear will increase drop rate from (as an example) 2.4 rares to 3.4 rares on average. Also, I don't really understand the question directed toward my results from before - the data is in aggregate, not averaged (e.g., over 60 runs on a particular boss w/ 15MF and 0 Neph stacks, I got 127 magic drops from the boss)
Hmm yeah, I could buy into that idea, without NV my boss drops with MF don't seem as impressive, I'd love to see some big samples.
|
On May 31 2012 07:56 Medrea wrote:
Nephalem Valor and Magic Find are two separate things. NV adds loot to bosses. On top of aiding MF.
Yep, that seems to be it.
Gathered some more data, this is what I have so far:
+ Show Spoiler +
Number of yellow and blue drops I had on champion packs in halls of agony / cursed hold as well as warden and butcher. Kills without mf equip, or with switching to +147% mf before kill. In brackets average number of drops per single kill.
champion packs total
no mf equip
number: 36
blue: 75 (2.08)
yellow: 15 (0.42)
with mf equip
number: 34
blue: 41 (1.21)
yellow: 31 (0.91)
champion packs with 5 stacks NV
no mf equip
number: 10
blue: 19 (1.9)
yellow: 7 (0.7)
with mf equip
number: 16
blue: 20 (1.25)
yellow: 17 (1.06)
warden with 5 stacks NV no mf equip
number: 4
blue: 20 (5)
yellow: 10 (2.5)
warden with 5 stacks NV with mf equip
number: 4
blue: 18 (4.5)
yellow: 10 (2.5)
warden no stacks NV no mf equip
number: 1
blue: 2
yellow: 0
butcher with 5 stacks NV no mf equip
number: 4
blue: 22 (5.5)
yellow: 11 (2.75)
butcher with 5 stacks NV with mf equip
number: 4
blue: 25 (6.25)
yellow: 10 (2.5)
butcher no stacks NV no mf equip
number: 1
blue: 2
yellow: 1
So it seems like mf does not increase the overall number of blue and yellow drops on champion packs. But it increases the ratio of yellow to blue, you get more yellows in the end (roughly twice as much yellow with 150% mf).
NV seems to be counted towards normal mf on champion packs (lack of data here though). In any case it does not increase the number of guaranteed drops from champion packs. These always remain at 2.
Btw Tome of Secrets does not count as a normal blue drop.
However, I could not observe any increase in yellow or blue drops on bosses with mf. Maybe this is really disabled atm as someone wrote in this thread. But the sample size is somewhat to small here.
As others have said before NV stakcs increase number of guaranteed drops on bosses immensely.
So in short: mf works on champions (not more drops but higher quality), NV stacks work on bosses (more drops).
edit: Hold-Lurker already posted some better data on bosses:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 31 2012 05:40 Hold-Lurker wrote:
I have 120 Act 4 purple/boss runs of data recorded at 0 stacks:
60 @ 15MF (4 gems, 24 white, 127 magic, 12 tomes, 0 rares)
30 @ 66MF (5 gems, 13 white, 61 magic, 5 tomes, 1 rare)
30 @ 103MF (3 gems, 8 white, 60 magic, 8 tomes, 1 rare)
Not sure what the takeaway is yet. Probably still low sample size?
I will continue to record data as I farm when my friends aren't on. If someone more statistically minded than me wants to look over the actual data, let me know how I can get it to you.. (Google doc that I can cut/paste into or something?)
This strongly reinforces my opinon that mf does NOT work on bosses.
|
On May 30 2012 22:58 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 22:51 Redox wrote:On May 30 2012 22:49 Tobberoth wrote:On May 30 2012 22:47 Redox wrote:On May 30 2012 22:44 bgx wrote:On May 30 2012 22:43 Redox wrote:On May 30 2012 22:29 Heh_ wrote:
5 stack valor guarantees 2 yellow drops from bosses, aka warden and butcher (not Izual for some reason). Don't count that in. Testing with NV complicates things so much, you either take samples with only 5 stack NV or no NV at all.
So if 5 stacks of valor give 2 guaranteed drops, would 75% of MF from gear give the same? Or is there a diffrence between MF % from valor buff and from gear? Because this does just sound like it. No, valor gives 2 rares by default, 75% MF does not guarantee anything, only guarantee bigger chance. Source? Well, don't know if it counts, but I've beaten Kulle in Act 2 several times with more than 80% MF (no stacks) and I've never gotten a yellow from him. That would kinda reinforce my suspicion that the MF from items does not work. That is indeed the kind of info I was looking for. Honestly, that's not the kind of information you should be looking for. You should be looking for something like "I did 50 butcher runs with 5 stacks of NV and got X blues, Y yellows and Z legendaries, then did 50 butcher runs with +150% MF and 5 stacks of NV and got X blues, Y yellows and Z legendaries". Something like "I did that boss a few time with MF and got nothing" doesn't actually mean that much.
This. It's simply shocking the amount of conclusions you're yielding with the awful quality of statistics you've been taking so far.
You should really put what type of creature you killed, where (at least the Act/Mission) and if you want more distinct data showing the affects of MF, don't pick up the Valor buff when you're not wearing MF and get 5 stacks with MF gear. And if you're worried about the affect of gear run three different scenarios.
Normal gear, no valor.
Normal gear, with valor.
MF gear, with valor.
And not a few times, like 50 each (which could be argued that is still too few).
On May 31 2012 05:40 Hold-Lurker wrote:
I have 120 Act 4 purple/boss runs of data recorded at 0 stacks:
60 @ 15MF (4 gems, 24 white, 127 magic, 12 tomes, 0 rares)
30 @ 66MF (5 gems, 13 white, 61 magic, 5 tomes, 1 rare)
30 @ 103MF (3 gems, 8 white, 60 magic, 8 tomes, 1 rare)
Not sure what the takeaway is yet. Probably still low sample size?
I will continue to record data as I farm when my friends aren't on. If someone more statistically minded than me wants to look over the actual data, let me know how I can get it to you.. (Google doc that I can cut/paste into or something?)
This strongly reinforces my opinon that mf does NOT work on bosses.[/QUOTE]
Act 4 purple/boss runs is extremely vague especially considering how easily specific you could be. Were you farming the ghosts? Were you farming Diablo's herald? Were you farming Diablo? And honestly going from 15 MF to 103 MF isn't exactly the best way to find results. Run with 0 MF and then 250 MF and if the results are similar after 50 of each, then yes I think it would be a fair statement that MF doesn't effect bosses.
Also are you going start to finish with MF gear on, or merely switching when you're about to kill it? It would not shock me if Blizzard did not allow people to switch at the last second and have it affect the loot.
|
Very interesting data Sprungjeezy!
|
Short answer: of course it works lol. And you can use MF items on ur followers to get more MF too btw.
|
On May 31 2012 06:27 matiK23 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 03:00 Nizaris wrote:On May 31 2012 02:58 matiK23 wrote:On May 31 2012 01:38 Psyqo wrote:
Does anyone else hate the idea that you can swap in gear right before a killing blow? I think it is a dumb, unintended mechanic that I hope gets fixed somehow. Why is it stupid? And why for any reason would you be against this? You must be against the concept of auction house too. because it makes lv60 mf gear worthless when u can just use shitty blues. they should remove it. Lmfao wut. You're using your lvl 60 gear for the majority of the time to get 5 NV stacks vs minions with rage inducing affixes. Then you use it to kill the boss to get him to the point where you can switch to your MF gear for 3 seconds and you think it's worthless and blues have more power. Wow. Bad troll is bad.
i wasn't trolling maybe you should try actually understanding what i said.
|
Yet another retarded exploit blizzard failed to adress. Go blizzard
|
On June 01 2012 19:18 Kickboxer wrote:Yet another retarded exploit blizzard failed to adress. Go blizzard
Are you refering to swapping your gear to MF gear right before a kill or something else?
If gear swap then lol, its hardlyt an exploit....
|
On May 31 2012 06:27 matiK23 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 03:00 Nizaris wrote:On May 31 2012 02:58 matiK23 wrote:On May 31 2012 01:38 Psyqo wrote:
Does anyone else hate the idea that you can swap in gear right before a killing blow? I think it is a dumb, unintended mechanic that I hope gets fixed somehow. Why is it stupid? And why for any reason would you be against this? You must be against the concept of auction house too. because it makes lv60 mf gear worthless when u can just use shitty blues. they should remove it. Lmfao wut. You're using your lvl 60 gear for the majority of the time to get 5 NV stacks vs minions with rage inducing affixes. Then you use it to kill the boss to get him to the point where you can switch to your MF gear for 3 seconds and you think it's worthless and blues have more power. Wow. Bad troll is bad.
I think he means, what's the point of having lvl 60 gears with mf when you can switch to shitty blues ? I also think it's more rewarding for us to sacrifice our dps and hp pool in order to get better %mf from start to finish.
Right now, it's kind of counter intuitive to have to switch before every kill in order to have the best chances of dropping items.
|
So, is it still working? Im switching to 180 mf (w/o valor) before killing butcher, and i didn't notice any increase in blues and rares. Did like 4 or so runs
|
On June 08 2012 15:24 backstabber wrote:
So, is it still working? Im switching to 180 mf (w/o valor) before killing butcher, and i didn't notice any increase in blues and rares. Did like 4 or so runs
you're supposed to do boss runs with 5 stack valor
you're guaranteed 2 rares when 5 stacked
|
On June 08 2012 15:30 udgnim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 15:24 backstabber wrote:
So, is it still working? Im switching to 180 mf (w/o valor) before killing butcher, and i didn't notice any increase in blues and rares. Did like 4 or so runs you're supposed to do boss runs with 5 stack valor you're guaranteed 2 rares when 5 stacked
180 without valor. ofc im doing butcher with 5 stacks + 180 mf gear before death
|
I have 411 MF, AMA!!! (only missing amulet with 40%, 38% on it now + better gear for templar)
Well, don't ask, but from my experience MF helps some. You gotta invest your money into something, why not mf?
Today I'm starting to count how often champs/rares have certain affixes like 'plagued' cause yesterday it was like 90% which is so fucking annoying for WD.
I might as well count the blue/yellow drops.
|
On June 08 2012 16:55 DrGreen wrote:
I have 411 MF, AMA!!! (only missing amulet with 40%, 38% on it now + better gear for templar)
Well, don't ask, but from my experience MF helps some. You gotta invest your money into something, why not mf?
Today I'm starting to count how often champs/rares have certain affixes like 'plagued' cause yesterday it was like 90% which is so fucking annoying for WD.
I might as well count the blue/yellow drops.
Is that with or without nephalem valor?
|
In a bluepost regarding patch 1.0.3 there was a quesion about magic find, and according to the bluepost magic find works exactly the same in D3 as it did in D2, which means that swapping before the kill shot would actually work, right?
|
On June 08 2012 17:00 rems wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 16:55 DrGreen wrote:
I have 411 MF, AMA!!! (only missing amulet with 40%, 38% on it now + better gear for templar)
Well, don't ask, but from my experience MF helps some. You gotta invest your money into something, why not mf?
Today I'm starting to count how often champs/rares have certain affixes like 'plagued' cause yesterday it was like 90% which is so fucking annoying for WD.
I might as well count the blue/yellow drops. Is that with or without nephalem valor?
with valor, 335% without so 410, not 411, my bad.
|
Well unfortunately it does work, the whole idea of Magic Find on items is in contrast of fun game design. And it's especially in contrast to "make the fun gameplay the efficient gameplay". Because even though there's obviously nothing fun about switching out your gear shortly before killing a champion/elite/boss/goblin or opening a resplendent chest, I too do it. I have no choice really, it's just that much more effective.
It's not only that it's already the base idea of Magic Find on items. That attribute isn't fun or cool like damage, attackspeed, liferegen and similar modifiers are. It doesn't make combat easier for you / changes combat at all, it just has an effect on item drops, which I'd like to be completely independent from such attributes (NV stacks are a cool implementation though, but they're item independent of course!).
I don't want to sacrifice a cool item in my set for some boring MF item, but at the moment I have to in order to play efficient.
|
has anyone done bosses like siegebreaker w/o stacks with just raw MF? does it work? I've done like 10 runs and haven't gotten a single rare. I'm wondering if raw MF simply don't work on bosses?
|
On June 10 2012 07:21 Hydrolisko wrote:
has anyone done bosses like siegebreaker w/o stacks with just raw MF? does it work? I've done like 10 runs and haven't gotten a single rare. I'm wondering if raw MF simply don't work on bosses?
bosses like siegebreaker/aspects/iskatu/etc have a constant drop of 2 blues + very rarely you will get a yellow or 3rd blue item (even with 320+ mf)
|
I had 5 rares drop from siegebreaker once with x5 nephalem and about 150 mf. Usually it's 3 rares, sometimes less.
|
On June 10 2012 10:47 Microchaton wrote:
I had 5 rares drop from siegebreaker once with x5 nephalem and about 150 mf. Usually it's 3 rares, sometimes less.
I'm pretty sure according to Blizzard's post on 1.03 it's impossible to get fewer than 2 rares from a boss with 5 NV stacks. I've never gotten fewer after killing like 50 bosses with 5 stacks.
|
On June 10 2012 07:21 Hydrolisko wrote:
has anyone done bosses like siegebreaker w/o stacks with just raw MF? does it work? I've done like 10 runs and haven't gotten a single rare. I'm wondering if raw MF simply don't work on bosses?
You get 2-3 blues usually without NV buff. MF doesnt increase loot count, but NV does it as an extra reward. As why blizzard hasnt included that in NV buff tooltip i dont know.
By killing a Rare or Champion pack, not only do you get their loot, but you’ll also receive a buff granting you increased magic find and gold find. However, if you change a skill, skill rune, passive, or leave the game, the buff disappears. As an extra reward, if you kill a boss while this buff is active, you’ll receive extra loot drops from that boss.
source: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4241234476
|
This is my experience from ~20 inf siegebreaker runs:
My MF gear is ~230% before NV stacks. I have noticed so far that I get one rare drop 90% of the time when killing a rare pack if I swap to MF before the kill.
Without MF I may only get it 50% of the time. Sometime none at all in all 5 packs.
Killing siege breaker in MF gear (>300% with 5 stacks), I notice that whites rarely drop. Usually I get 3 rares and a ton of blues with MF.
Unfortunately as a barbarian killing rares in MF is no longer "viable" due to the tyrael nerf. I used to take the rares down to 10%, swap to MF (and that usually result in my death) and let Tyrael finish the job.
|
With 5 stacks NV and and additional 100MF from gear My last 10 Inf Butcher runs have netted 2 rares x1, 4 rares x1, 3 rares x8.
I only started switching to MF gear last 2 days and was surprised that I only got 2 rares once with such little MF gear when without any I was rarely getting 3.
Died twice switching my gear >.< Im surprised gear switching like this carried over from D2, its very clunky. Off the top of my head thou I can't think of an alternative other than removing the stat from gear completely. I would have thought those wizards at blizzard would jump at the chance to come up with some form of new magic find mechanic.
|
Died twice switching my gear >.< Im surprised gear switching like this carried over from D2, its very clunky. Off the top of my head thou I can't think of an alternative other than removing the stat from gear completely. .
It's actually pretty easy... And there's sevral ways to do it, altough easiest would be to add a (hidden?) timer where you switch gear and gold / magic find would from newely equipped parts would not count for X seconds...
OR... (slightly harder to code), Just make the gear equipped that was equipped while doing the majority of damage... (so say you do 90% of the damage in non-mf gear, that's the gear that would count towards the drop).
And well there's loads of other ways to do it, just a stupid mechanic that shouldent be in the game imo... just my 2 cents..
|
On June 10 2012 17:21 vol_ wrote:
With 5 stacks NV and and additional 100MF from gear My last 10 Inf Butcher runs have netted 2 rares x1, 4 rares x1, 3 rares x8.
I only started switching to MF gear last 2 days and was surprised that I only got 2 rares once with such little MF gear when without any I was rarely getting 3.
Died twice switching my gear >.< Im surprised gear switching like this carried over from D2, its very clunky. Off the top of my head thou I can't think of an alternative other than removing the stat from gear completely. I would have thought those wizards at blizzard would jump at the chance to come up with some form of new magic find mechanic.
Blizzard said they didnt want people to be doing this. Guess what, they didn't change MF switching. Why? Because they want a wall to prevent people from getting more items and therefore get more gear. In other words, people have to use the AH instead of farming their own item, so Blizzard wins. Its obvious they have talent and the capacity to think about these things. Its also obvious that they want our money now beyond the 60 bucks for the game.
On the topic of MF gear switching, it does affect both boss drops and elite packs. Bosses however are affected by NV with a secret formula that guarentees rares. This is being change in 1.0.3 where only 1 rare is being guaranteed, with your MF++ making up to get that 2nd or third rare. Also, NV will guarantee 1 rare drop at least on a champion/elite pack.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
