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On April 09 2014 10:35 Big G wrote:Frozen Orb was doing damage 3 times (source: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9938503901 ), it could be that one of these steps got removed so that FO now works like other runes (half the damage while it passes through mobs and half when it explodes). Just a speculation (patch isn't live on EU), although it could explain the smaller numbers. I still don't know how I'm going to play, I tried some arcane build but nothing seemed on par with frozen orb.
I have to say that while I'm using an FO build right now, I really dislike D3's implementation of it. I guess they didn't want to change much from how regular arcane orb works, but I really wished they implemented D2's FO. I've been playing the shit out of the FO build for most of RoS and I still am not sure if there are any benefits to actually aiming the damn thing. In D2, there's a huge damage difference between a properly aimed FO and an improperly aimed FO.
Playing it last night, my clear time for rifts went up around 10-20%. But for the life of me, I can't figure out, in terms of damage, what they nerfed and how they nerfed it. The almost nonexistent slow is noticeable. The damage nerf is kinda noticeable as well but I can't figure out which part of the damage dealing process they nerfed.
I tried arcane torrent (cascade) and disintegrate (chaos nexus) when RoS first came out but settled on FO because it was just so much better at fast clearing. Arcane torrent is really good at killing elite packs but sucks at killing moving monsters. The annoying monsters that run away or dart in and out (scavengers, fallen, phantoms, fallen shaman, ranged goatmen, etc.) are orders of magnitude even more annoying when using arcane torrent. I finally gave up because of the inability to hit fleeing treasure goblins. Fucking awesome in groups with a pull monk, though. And on those times when black hole is up.
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So after the FOrb nerfs I would like to know what you guys think of the tradeoff between raw damage and attack speed, since you need to hit Electrocute more often to spam the FOrb. In particular I don't really know which weapon I should use. I got three different ones, ranging from massive base dmg (1506-2060 @1.2 attacks/second -> 2140 dps), one on the middleground (1404-1844 @1.38 -> 2240 dps) and one with a very high attack speed (1313-1765 @1.5 -> 2300dps). Atm I'm using the second one , but I'm not really sure which would be ideal.
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On April 09 2014 20:58 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2014 20:16 Masheyoon wrote:On April 09 2014 13:20 Dakkas wrote:On April 09 2014 11:33 Masheyoon wrote:On April 09 2014 11:11 Valiver wrote:On April 09 2014 10:59 Masheyoon wrote:
I actually decided to uninstall the game. Blizzard's poor decisions have only lead to limiting build diversity and discouraging players from investing in builds out of fear that they would be forced to backtrack said investment.
I don't mind forb being nerfed, just as I didn't mind the 1.0.8 WW barb getting nerfed, but as per usual, they nerfed the skill to the point of being tedious and frustrating and overall not optimal to use. It's not my idea of fun.
Thanks, Blizzard, but no thanks. Back before 2.0.1 every wizard was either CM/WW or archon, with almost no diversity at all besides some random sleetstorm builds and stuff like that. But now there are several common builds plus many other possibilities and they nerf one a little bit and they are "limiting build diversity"? This just isn't the case here. The problem is that they didn't nerf it by a little bit due to the reasons I mentioned in my above post. It was a significant enough nerf to render it unenjoyable. Like I said, I don't mind nerfing it down a bit, but they went overboard by nerfing its damage, seriously nerfing its AoE, reduced chill duration, and to top it all off, greatly reduced two AP generating skills that were really only useful for forb. It's just not fun anymore, and it's not fun being forced to change the way I like to play every time Blizzard releases a patch. They limited build diversity because there's no longer a reason to chose forb over arcane torrent at the moment. It's much more powerful and not as tedious. Really, the biggest issue, as I also mentioned, is that Blizzard only discourages investing time in a single build. There's also the matter that they don't release complete info on all the changes they make (Mirror Ball, for example, was nerfed but Blizzard didn't even mention it. That's unprofessional in my opinion). EDIT: Apparently this nerf was an unintentional over nerf: I did some testing with Frozen Orb compared to the other orbs on a zombie target in act 1.
The 15 yard radius that it clearly states that it should be doing is not functioning, I can use a Arcane Orb - Spark and it clearly hits for 15 yards whereas I have to shoot my Frozen orb directly on or pretty much clipping the zombie as it explodes to get the explosion part of the Move.
I agree that it was far stronger than intended but now it doesn't even feel like it is exploding in a 15 yard radius for the explosion portion of the damage, feels more like it was unintentionally over nerfed. The nerf to arcane generation was entirely warranted, no other class could fill their resource bulb as quickly as a wizard could. Your post proves that you think you're being reasonable but you're just being fickle. There are vastly more builds now than before so you are categorically and objectively wrong when you say "limited build diversity". Bringing Frozen Orb in line with nearly every other class build is fair. Maybe now you'll need to use a bit of strategy instead of mindlessly pressing your right-mouse button and killing everything on the screen. But then again, if you're uninstalling a game just because one of the simplest and most OP builds was nerfed, the community is better off without you. I explained in that very post that you quoted that I don't at all mind a FOrb nerf, but the issue was that Blizzard yet again (just as they had done with the barb) overnerfed it to the point where people had to consider rerolling their item stats and consider a different build. And the issue is that the skill was not brought in line, but actually lowered due to the fact that its now-lowered 15 yard radius doesn't even work (it's much smaller than the actual FOrb animation). Nerfing radius was definitely a good idea, sure, but not to the point where the animation itself lies to you. The chill nerf is also really big because the benefit of slowing down mobs is no longer there. You see, nerfing some of these things would be ok, but when you combine all of this with the AP regen nerf (which I will agree was needed, albeit again, 33% is a lot considering FOrb's cost), the skill was rendered frustrating. But even then, I did not in any way state that I was quitting the game because an OP skill was nerfed. I quit because of how disappointed and discouraged I was thanks to Blizzard's tendency to cause players to backtrack their investments and the fact that they 1) don't admit to nerfing and instead attempt to cover it up by calling it a "bug fix" (what was the point to the PTR again?) and 2) don't provide complete info on their nerfs (MM was nerfed but Blizzard did not mention it, among others things of the sort). That's even more hilarious you'd even bring up the Barb nerf. I'm assuming you're talking about the perma-WotB being nerfed because Barbs didn't receive any other notable nerfs. If you're disappointed by perma-WotB being nerfed simply means you're a really fickle player. I'm not even going to bother arguing with you if you can't see how broken perma-WotB is because the community is truly better off without you.
While I understand why you came to that assumption, I didn't say that. Please don't exaggerate my claims. The perma-Wotb and unlimited fury barb was the holy grail of all that it is to be unbalanced. No one in their right mind could argue that. However! There's also no denying that Blizzard overnerfed barbs, put them in a difficult spot, and made them tedious and frustrating to play due to the following (paraphrased from Big G, hope you don't mind  ):
+ Show Spoiler +Pre 2.0 there were 2 OP skills in a slew of bad skills, then OP skills were removed. The main issue is with fury generation, due to a number of reasons:
- the amount of fury gained by receiving damage is negligible (this is one of the major flaws in class design)
- primary skills suck, and suck even more with low attack speed / 2H. It was that way pre-patch, now it's worse since they nerfed fury generation AND ias on gear
- everything else either has a long cooldown (shouts, leap/charge) or it generates fury depending on the number of monsters hit. Which seems cool until you play the game (developers don't) and realize that 1.08 density is gone, so in 90% of the game you can hit one mob at a time
- Battle Rage needed a few alternatives pre-patch, exactly because it was the only decent (OP in reality) fury generator, but the problem was never addressed. Just a simple suggestion I made looong ago: make a skill/rune that fills the fury globe! That way you can circumvent some limitations (slow attack speed) while making the "+ maximum fury" affix relevant (it was relevant for HOTA builds, which are gone)
- speaking of affixes, barbarians have 2 class specific items: mighty belts can no longer roll life steal, so that's gone too. Mighty weapons can roll max fury, which as I said is useless, and life per fury spent (only legendary weapons maybe, I don't know). So that leaves us, in the best scenario, with a grand total of 1 semi-useful barbarian-specific affix. Pre-patch mighty weapons were useless because of Weapons Master, now that the passive has been nerfed they should be ok, right? Right?? Wrong! They nerfed the fury generation bonus for mighty weapons too, from 3 (which was already low by the way) to... 1. ....... nice, huh?
Honestly, I don't think players like me are the problem. I don't even think players like you are the problem. I think the problem is that Blizzard devs don't play nor do they understand how to balance their own game while making it fun.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
there are lots of barbs running around with shard of hate going past paragon 600. it's not awkward to play just need a bit of gear.
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On April 10 2014 00:20 oneofthem wrote:
there are lots of barbs running around with shard of hate going past paragon 600. it's not awkward to play just need a bit of gear.
Yeah, I've seen it. It definitely looks good (though I don't like how you're reliant on items to make a build work, since it seems to be the case with Shard of Hate).
The problem I see is this: people have mentioned that Shard of Hate with Whirlwind windshear is "far more OP than the Electrocute speed modifier with prodigy" due to WW multi proccing and speed modifier, but it has been left alone. This double standard really seems to prove Blizzard is not out to fix OPness, but is just to cave into qq.
I'll definitely com back in a year's time (after Blizzard has settled down with their nerfhammer) and hopefully try a build that won't eventually force me to backtrack.
EDIT: A bit off-topic, sorry about that.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
with gear level being so smoothed out besides some key uniques, you could transition into a fire or arcane wiz build pretty easily, certainly easier than making a new character from the start for frozen orb. but do w/e you feel like lol
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i still wonder if there are any good fire builds? meteor either has a cooldown or is way too scattered or not fire damage...
explosive blast is a melee range skill and thus dangerous and difficult to use. conflagrate with mirrorball was just stealth-nerfed. is there anything competitive for wiz that is firebased?
about arcane torrent: the skill fires 3 missiles per cast, doing 191% weapon damage each, for a total of 573. with disruption, the overall damage thus is 659%. with cascade, it depends on the exact mechanics. (which i am not sure about.)
if the 12.5% chance to spawn a new missile is applied once for a complete arcane torrent cast, then the expected value of the overall damage per cast is 573 + 0.125*582 = 645. if the 12.5% chance are applied per arcane torrent missile, its 573 + 3*0.125*582 = 791% weapon damage on average. (i doubt that...)
if the extra missile can itself trigger yet another extra missile with 12.5% chance, we would arrive at 573 + 0.125*582 + 0.125^2*582 = 655% weapon damage, although with rather unsteady damage output. (i ignored higher order powers of 0.125 since they make a difference of less than one nominal percent...)
for comparison, disintegrate with chaos nexus does 626% weapon damage against monsters that are close enough to be hit by the small extra ray. which is not that much less than AT, but with the advantage of much better aoe and instant damage compared to AT's slowly travelling missiles.
therefore, i am overall leaning more towards disintegrate than AT. i possess a kickass 10apoc legacy triumvirate though, so that i can keep up my arcane power even with disintegrate without requiring a signature spell or resource passives.
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Caldeum1977 Posts
On April 10 2014 01:23 Black Gun wrote:
i still wonder if there are any good fire builds? meteor either has a cooldown or is way too scattered or not fire damage...
explosive blast is a melee range skill and thus dangerous and difficult to use. conflagrate with mirrorball was just stealth-nerfed. is there anything competitive for wiz that is firebased?
I've just messed around slightly for a bit with fire builds but it seems like meteor is not as good as other options.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#acNjTS!ecRZ!cYYaZZ
That's the build that I ended up with, but I was still trying to decide if scorch should be wave of force - heat wave or magic weapon should be the ignite rune. I definitely took more damage as fire but things died just a little slower and I was using only +cold skill damage so with a cindercoat and magefist I can easily see fire being really good.
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nerf FO builds - blizzard killing diversity? lol.
its the exact opposite, people are now exploring other options and new builds. plus, FO builds are still viable, just not as strong.
give me a fucking break people.
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On April 09 2014 10:55 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2014 08:16 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 09 2014 08:08 oneofthem wrote:
wizards should try out other spells. frozen orb is not all that the class has to offer, far from it. people are complaining on battle.net that arcane is too strong now.... it appears only the fire builds are safe! probably because its so fucking hard to get cindercoat and magefist. Ahahaha, really? I've had like 4 Magefists drop for me since patch 2.0! Now if only I can transmute those into the new IK or Earth set...
i have gambled like 800 shards and not received a single magefist (or any legendary for that matter). i have gotten legendaries for other slots, but magefist is my white whale.
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On April 10 2014 01:52 Valiver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2014 01:23 Black Gun wrote:
i still wonder if there are any good fire builds? meteor either has a cooldown or is way too scattered or not fire damage...
explosive blast is a melee range skill and thus dangerous and difficult to use. conflagrate with mirrorball was just stealth-nerfed. is there anything competitive for wiz that is firebased? I've just messed around slightly for a bit with fire builds but it seems like meteor is not as good as other options. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#acNjTS!ecRZ!cYYaZZThat's the build that I ended up with, but I was still trying to decide if scorch should be wave of force - heat wave or magic weapon should be the ignite rune. I definitely took more damage as fire but things died just a little slower and I was using only +cold skill damage so with a cindercoat and magefist I can easily see fire being really good.
I tried scorch and never liked it. You give up direct damage in exchange for a dot. The DoT just did its damage way too slowly for my liking. When I was using Cindercoat at 60, I ended up with meteor swarm.
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On April 09 2014 14:40 Duka08 wrote:
I suppose I'll be a voice of reason and say that I think FOrb is still strong. The AoE on the bonus damage definitely feels smaller, but not too small that it ruins the build. You just need to space orbs better. The bigger hit is with AP regen, and that's going to hurt quite a few builds so that's not specifically a FOrb nerf of course.
I tried disintegrate/archon build daphreak, but didn't care for it. It feels pretty strong, even for being poorly itemized (since I was just giving it a shot and only re-rolled a few things). But my main issue is that I don't like the lack of mobility. I like the ranged playstyle and blink/wormhole for speeding up runs. Thanks for the details though! I'll keep it in mind if anything great drops that might synergize with it. I might also try messing around with it with a different rune on Archon, since I wasn't using it on cooldown usually depending on mob density and quest.
I'm really hoping to get a couple of the relevant legendaries for a fire build (especially Mirrorball!) to try that out, because it sounds very fun. For now I'll stick with FOrb, which, despite the nerf, feels like my runs are maybe 10% slower at worst. Not a huge deal, really. AP regen nerf hurts the most, but that's warranted probably.
Anyone with insight into Arcane Torrent builds? Specifically which rune(s) and what playstyle makes it best? I had some fun with it leveling, but I'm confused as to what would make it so strong for T1+
the arcane build i use doesnt play like a traditional kiting wizard build, which is a disadvantage of it. you can also try an arcane orb (arcane dmg rune) to get a playstyle more like FOrb, but i dont think it has as much aoe. i have not tried it myself because i like the passives that boost dmg/ehp when you are close and stand still.
one of the major disadvantages of the build is that on low difficulties (e.g., t1 runs), i still have FOrb wizards killing everything before i can even reach the enemies. thus, i am limited to killing elites and high hp monsters. those poor nerfed FOrb wizards. =P
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United States47024 Posts
FOrb is still probably the best Arcane Orb rune outside of specific builds that require certain ones.
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Well if you're lucky enough to find a Wand of Woh, the Fire build is pretty much done.
Any suggestions for an Arcane build?
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United States47024 Posts
Gesture of Orpheus and Slorak's Madness are the stand-out legendary weapons for Arcane builds.
Slorak's is the legendary that really makes Disintegrate so good for top-end gear, because pretty much no other build can get % skill damage on a slot that otherwise does not even roll % skill damage--much less at such a ridiculous number as 30%.
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I have extensively tested two builds (I am lucky enough to find pretty good gear for both):
- Cookie Cutter FO (before and after nerfs)
- Arcane Torrent/Archon
For Arcane Torrent and Archon, my notable stats/gear include:
900 sheet DPS / 2.5mill sheet toughness
70% + Arcane Skills Dmg
4 piece Bonus for Vyr's set (Archon gains all runes)
Aughild's pieces (15%+ dmg to elites)
15% Arcane Torrent Dmg (Triumvirate)
Build was Spectral Blades (Thrown Blade), Arcane Torrent (Cascade), Archon (All Runes), Sparkflint, Pris Armor (All Res), Force Weapon
Audacity, Glass Cannon, Unwavering Will, Unstable Anomaly
For FO build, my notable stats gear include:
1mill sheet DPS / 3.5 mill sheet toughness
55% + Cold Skills Dmg (Farmed 4 hours since patch for Frozen Blood to craft Utar's Axe and only got 1 Frozen Blood  need that +20% cold and SOJ to push for 100% +cold)
Mirrorball +2 missle
25% Arcane Orb Dmg
Build was Glacial Spike, Frozen Orb, Black Hole (Absolute Zero), Sparflint, Pris Armor, Force Weapon
Glass Cannon, Prodigy, Cold Blooded, Arcane Dynamo
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Inflex-1170/hero/41627339
Basically after the patch, I really needed to pick one as I needed to reroll for Skills Dmg type on my Visage before it got too expensive and I am an impatient person.
Arcane Build:
For high torment rift runs or T6 runs, this build/gear set definitely trumps the FO one when it comes to killing elites (provided there is a full group and someone is able to tank for you). Whenever there is an elite, just turn on Archon, turn on all runes, TP ontop of them, spam 1 and left click and just beast. And whenever archon is down, just stand barely behind the Monk's ass (within 15 yards but out of melee range) and just Arcane Torrent everything that is grouped to shreds. Arcane Wiz's really shine in cooldown based scenarios (built for Rifts, where there is an elite once every so often).
However, what I didn't find effective and a lot of times annoying is when it came to spread of mobs, goblins, or soloing or anything other than Rifts or coordinated group runs. There is zero ability kite and is suvivability is extremely low. The playstyle is very cool down dependent/glass cannon.
Cold FO Build:
In terms of killing elites, this is definitely slower than any Archon build. I would say for an elite in terms of pure DPS standpoint (someone tanking, so you don't need waste time kiting or orb-walking), it is almost easily 25% less dps (25% longer to down an elite).
However, this build beats out Arcane in every other situation, as I said. Not every elite pack or every situation, even in a full party with a monk, I am able to stand there for 5-10secs straight and just DPS. The Frozen Orb build shoudln't be called that, because what MAKES OR BREAKS a Cold Wiz is MIRRORBALL GLACIAL SPIKE. The difference between Electrocute as a primary and 3 Glacial Spikes each dealing its own damage (you can spam it so 3 hit the same target for 3x damage which is almost as high as FO, lol) + 1 sec freeze/AOE.
Now, not only is is your primary skill spam a resource generator but it is dealing as much damage as your FO + freezing everything - insane. For any FO/Cold Wiz out there, don't spend any shards on anything other than off-hands until you get a +2 magic missle Mirrorball; the upgrade is just night and day.
In the end, I chose to go back to FO/Cold as the utility, playstyle, nostalgia-factor is far suporior to the Arcane/Archon build. IMO, both are very viable as Wiz builds at end-game.
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On April 10 2014 05:02 Inflexion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I have extensively tested two builds (I am lucky enough to find pretty good gear for both): - Cookie Cutter FO (before and after nerfs) - Arcane Torrent/Archon For Arcane Torrent and Archon, my notable stats/gear include: 900 sheet DPS / 2.5mill sheet toughness 70% + Arcane Skills Dmg 4 piece Bonus for Vyr's set (Archon gains all runes) Aughild's pieces (15%+ dmg to elites) 15% Arcane Torrent Dmg (Triumvirate) Build was Spectral Blades (Thrown Blade), Arcane Torrent (Cascade), Archon (All Runes), Sparkflint, Pris Armor (All Res), Force Weapon Audacity, Glass Cannon, Unwavering Will, Unstable Anomaly For FO build, my notable stats gear include: 1mill sheet DPS / 3.5 mill sheet toughness 55% + Cold Skills Dmg (Farmed 4 hours since patch for Frozen Blood to craft Utar's Axe and only got 1 Frozen Blood need that +20% cold and SOJ to push for 100% +cold) Mirrorball +2 missle 25% Arcane Orb Dmg Build was Glacial Spike, Frozen Orb, Black Hole (Absolute Zero), Sparflint, Pris Armor, Force Weapon Glass Cannon, Prodigy, Cold Blooded, Arcane Dynamo http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Inflex-1170/hero/41627339Basically after the patch, I really needed to pick one as I needed to reroll for Skills Dmg type on my Visage before it got too expensive and I am an impatient person. Arcane Build: For high torment rift runs or T6 runs, this build/gear set definitely trumps the FO one when it comes to killing elites (provided there is a full group and someone is able to tank for you). Whenever there is an elite, just turn on Archon, turn on all runes, TP ontop of them, spam 1 and left click and just beast. And whenever archon is down, just stand barely behind the Monk's ass (within 15 yards but out of melee range) and just Arcane Torrent everything that is grouped to shreds. Arcane Wiz's really shine in cooldown based scenarios (built for Rifts, where there is an elite once every so often). However, what I didn't find effective and a lot of times annoying is when it came to spread of mobs, goblins, or soloing or anything other than Rifts or coordinated group runs. There is zero ability kite and is suvivability is extremely low. The playstyle is very cool down dependent/glass cannon. Cold FO Build: In terms of killing elites, this is definitely slower than any Archon build. I would say for an elite in terms of pure DPS standpoint (someone tanking, so you don't need waste time kiting or orb-walking), it is almost easily 25% less dps (25% longer to down an elite). However, this build beats out Arcane in every other situation, as I said. Not every elite pack or every situation, even in a full party with a monk, I am able to stand there for 5-10secs straight and just DPS. The Frozen Orb build shoudln't be called that, because what MAKES OR BREAKS a Cold Wiz is MIRRORBALL GLACIAL SPIKE. The difference between Electrocute as a primary and 3 Glacial Spikes each dealing its own damage (you can spam it so 3 hit the same target for 3x damage which is almost as high as FO, lol) + 1 sec freeze/AOE. Now, not only is is your primary skill spam a resource generator but it is dealing as much damage as your FO + freezing everything - insane. For any FO/Cold Wiz out there, don't spend any shards on anything other than off-hands until you get a +2 magic missle Mirrorball; the upgrade is just night and day. In the end, I chose to go back to FO/Cold as the utility, playstyle, nostalgia-factor is far suporior to the Arcane/Archon build. IMO, both are very viable as Wiz builds at end-game .
the big question on everyone's mind is, what color are the beams when you have all runes?!?
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Why wouldn't you reroll the LoH?
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On April 10 2014 06:06 Amui wrote:Why wouldn't you reroll the LoH?
Because I actually kinda like LOH. Maybe I'm wrong about it in ROS as to it's actual value? But thought if the 7% dmg or the 34% CHD would only be a minor DPS hit I'd rather keep the big LOH value unless it's too damaging to the weapons stats.
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EPT
