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A good thing something like this gets discussed. I remember that at least in the older videos of ForceStrategy he kept saying that 2 hand weapons are better, because they have higher damage, period.
Not questioning his first thought at all.
The first thing that should strike him is, why would Blizzard implement it that way, when there's obviously no advantage to 1hand weapons?
Well and then I saw PsyStarcraft do a walkthrough and he thought the same for a moment and then was like "wait a sec...".
He then tested out the attack speed and realised it gets increased when dual wielding. <- that's how you do it ;P
It's just annoying when someone who gets multiple hundret thousand views on his video keep explaining stuff wrong :/
Either way, as simple as the concept of dual wielding appears to be, there's actually quite a lot to take into consideration to make both, single and dual wielding appealing. As noted in the patch notes, you e.g. have to consider which attribute you're going to use for spells etc.
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Yeah, Force has a few videos where he simply equips a 2nd weapon, reduces his DPS and never stops to notice. Eventually he finds 2 comparatively good weapons but I also found it pretty annoying how his preferred class being the Barbarian who can dual-wield has never caused him to look into that properly. That means you should sub to Armada Gaming for all your juicy details in the future! :>
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If your offhand does significantly less damage than your mainhand, you're going to lose dp
Be careful because that only applies when doing the same attack again and again and may not be accurate if a big part of your DPS is coming from spending resources (dual wielding will always generate more resource than 1 weapon). Or for a class like the monk you get through your combos faster by dual wielding.
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One thing that would be good to look into is how the increased resource regeneration can effect your DPS.
For example what happens if you use multishot with your mainhand attack, then grenades (runed to generate additional hatred to cover the multi-shot's hatred expenditure) with your offhand. The multishot is the primary source of DPS so if the offhand attack (the grenades) are performed with a faster attacking weapon, even if it's less dps, then your overall DPS may go up.
Another example might be combining frenzy and cleave. With the former red rune 1 hit of frenzy would give +15% attack speed & +15% damage. You could use a fast offhand to gain one frenzy stack then hit with a cleave taking advantage of the +15% damage on the cleave with the +15% faster attack speed also factoring in to give you more attacks overall. Maybe the math doesn't work out to be more DPS than cleaving twice, idk, but it could for certain values.
I think overall the system is nice. It seems like..
1h - defensive or the best for stats (shield or orb-like offhand)
dual wielding - greatest resource generation and flexibility in applying effects or procing on hit effects (like immobilize for the DH)
2h - best at maximizing the damage/resource of abilities you spend resources on like multi-shot, impale, etc. and great for big burst damage overall.
Seems like each possible weapon configuration has a compelling reason to go it that's unique from the other configurations.
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Good job, keep the videos coming.
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One of the big issues I have with the game right now comes from the Witch Doctor.
The Witch Doctor has no resource generating abilities, everything they do is mana-based and, at least in the beta, the lowest mana-cost spell can still run you OOM if you chain-cast it long enough.
At any rate, this seems to make 2H weapons significantly better specifically due to the fact that they are SLOWER, and therefore cause your damage-per-mana and damage-per-cast to be significantly higher than 1Hers.
Why would I ever use a 1Her as a Witch Doctor?
I also have a lesser problem with the Demon Hunter as 2H bows + quiver provides a ridiculous amount more stats than using 2 hand-crossbows. This is a lesser problem though as the threshold for surpassing the effectiveness by DW is nowhere near as large a gap compared to the Witch Doctor.
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Japan2800 Posts
The first two questions were answered very well. Your last question answered was horrible. "No, but usually it is" with no example of anything that is better, and only one grossly exaggerated example of it not being better.
If basic, clear, and concise are your goals for these videos then you might want to work on examples for all possibilities (better, equal, and worse).
Another thing you could think about doing is figuring out the formula (I'm sure there is one that can be found out in the beta) for dual wield weapons to be better/worse/or equal versus just using a single weapon.
I mean, my guess is people aren't going to search youtube/forums for videos explaining stuff that they can figure out in 30 seconds on their own, they are going to look on youtube/forums for formulas and meaningful numbers.
Just my two cents, other people in this thread can feel free to point it out if they feel like I'm wrong.
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Out of curiosity, how do you get identical pairs of weapons? Are you using a game editor/does the beta allow you to do stuff like that? Or are there always crappy stock items you can buy infinitely at the store?
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nice video, i really wondered how that will be thank you
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On February 22 2012 01:57 bludragen88 wrote:
Out of curiosity, how do you get identical pairs of weapons? Are you using a game editor/does the beta allow you to do stuff like that? Or are there always crappy stock items you can buy infinitely at the store?
Stock items.
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On February 21 2012 16:02 Perseverance wrote:
The first two questions were answered very well. Your last question answered was horrible. "No, but usually it is" with no example of anything that is better, and only one grossly exaggerated example of it not being better.
If basic, clear, and concise are your goals for these videos then you might want to work on examples for all possibilities (better, equal, and worse).
Another thing you could think about doing is figuring out the formula (I'm sure there is one that can be found out in the beta) for dual wield weapons to be better/worse/or equal versus just using a single weapon.
I mean, my guess is people aren't going to search youtube/forums for videos explaining stuff that they can figure out in 30 seconds on their own, they are going to look on youtube/forums for formulas and meaningful numbers.
Just my two cents, other people in this thread can feel free to point it out if they feel like I'm wrong.
Fair criticism. I guess when I decided to include this question I had one objective. To get people to check their DPS when adding a second weapon rather than assuming the second weapon would be additive.
The question of whether or not to use one or two weapons has a lot of factors to consider, many of which have been mentioned here such as resource generation being higher when you attack faster or wanting lower damage/faster attack speed to minimize wasted overkill damage. Needless to say I didn't want to get into all of that in this video as it was long enough I feel.
Anyways I appreciate the feedback Pers and everyone else
I am really happy with the response to this video and I'll try to improve the next one.
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Japan2800 Posts
On February 22 2012 07:20 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 16:02 Perseverance wrote:
The first two questions were answered very well. Your last question answered was horrible. "No, but usually it is" with no example of anything that is better, and only one grossly exaggerated example of it not being better.
If basic, clear, and concise are your goals for these videos then you might want to work on examples for all possibilities (better, equal, and worse).
Another thing you could think about doing is figuring out the formula (I'm sure there is one that can be found out in the beta) for dual wield weapons to be better/worse/or equal versus just using a single weapon.
I mean, my guess is people aren't going to search youtube/forums for videos explaining stuff that they can figure out in 30 seconds on their own, they are going to look on youtube/forums for formulas and meaningful numbers.
Just my two cents, other people in this thread can feel free to point it out if they feel like I'm wrong. Fair criticism. I guess when I decided to include this question I had one objective. To get people to check their DPS when adding a second weapon rather than assuming the second weapon would be additive. The question of whether or not to use one or two weapons has a lot of factors to consider, many of which have been mentioned here such as resource generation being higher when you attack faster or wanting lower damage/faster attack speed to minimize wasted overkill damage. Needless to say I didn't want to get into all of that in this video as it was long enough I feel. Anyways I appreciate the feedback Pers and everyone else I am really happy with the response to this video and I'll try to improve the next one.
It's all good man, I think you have started something that can become great here. All you have to remember is more information is always better.
I'm looking forward to your next video ^^
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Are you sure it's not just displayed damage that gets truncated? In-game damage could very well be un-rounded.
Check it with 2 players and make 100 1h swings and 115 dual wield swings with the same speed weapons.
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On February 20 2012 16:22 Meta wrote:
When I played through the beta on a barbarian I was thoroughly unimpressed with dual wielding. It always seemed to lower my dps compared to using a single 2handed weapon. That's probably just the items at the start of act 1 though, late game items might be really high dps 1handers compared to 2handers.
When you are dual wielding, if one weapon is at least 15% less damage than the other then your overall dps will be lower than if you used only the higher dps of the two. That is because of the 15% attack speed increase when dual wielding. Some factors to keep in mind when deciding to dual wield or use 2 handers on the classes that have skill resource generators (monk, barb, dh) is that dual wielding will cause you to generate your resource (spirit, fury, hatred) quicker since you will be attacking faster. You may ask why would anyone dual wield with these characters then? Well their resource spenders will be doing more damage with two handers (when compared to same dps output as dual wielding, ofc). So while dual wielding will assist in gaining resource faster, using a two hander will assist in spending your resource more efficiently. So it all balances out in the end right?! Not when you factor in support skills such as Breath of Heaven or War Cry. Dual wielding will benefit support skills over two handers because support skills are not based on weapon damage like the offensive spells are, therefore the faster you generate your resource, the more effective support skills are.
On February 21 2012 12:10 Jermstuddog wrote:
One of the big issues I have with the game right now comes from the Witch Doctor.
The Witch Doctor has no resource generating abilities, everything they do is mana-based and, at least in the beta, the lowest mana-cost spell can still run you OOM if you chain-cast it long enough.
At any rate, this seems to make 2H weapons significantly better specifically due to the fact that they are SLOWER, and therefore cause your damage-per-mana and damage-per-cast to be significantly higher than 1Hers.
Why would I ever use a 1Her as a Witch Doctor?
I also have a lesser problem with the Demon Hunter as 2H bows + quiver provides a ridiculous amount more stats than using 2 hand-crossbows. This is a lesser problem though as the threshold for surpassing the effectiveness by DW is nowhere near as large a gap compared to the Witch Doctor.
Well if you have a problem with the WD then you should also have a problem with the Wizard because they are in the same boat. Both of these classes do however have their own class specific off hand items that tend to focus on stats that benefit their respected class a lot (ie +damage) as well as have class specific stats (ie +mana). It is not very evident in the beta due to the underwhelming amount of content, but in the full version with the right combination of stats the WD and Wizard will most likely benefit from 1h + offhand more. You need to consider that their offhands can get +damage and +intellect which both increase damage output, therefore you can have a 1h + offhand each have 2 affixes that add damage combined with a naturally faster attack speed vs a two hander which can only have a max of 2 affixes that add damage. Looking at the end game an ideal 1h + offhand in terms of stats should beat out a two hander with ideal stats, but it will be much more arduous and expensive to aquire an ideal 1h + offhand.
I'm not sure what you are getting at with the DH, do you mean two 1 hand-crossbows, because it should come out to the same number of stats (maybe not early game but my point still stands).
But as far as the beta goes I think you are spot on 
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Ugh.
Please do actual math and calculate shit. It´s not hard and you very well do not need someone to tell you something when you can just put it on a piece of paper and have it in 10 minutes.
Dual wielding increases DPS as long as the worse weapon has around 3/4(73.91%) of the DPS of the better weapon.
1. Dual Wield increases Attack speed by 15%, that´s the factor 1.15.
2. The actual DPS is the mean of the DPS of both weapons, thats a+b divided by 2.
We want the point at which the dual wield dps equals the dps of the better(mainhand) weapon:
(Mainhand dps + Offhand dps)*1.15/2 = Mainhand dps
+ Show Spoiler [Let me calculate that for you] +Mdps *1.15/2 + Odps *1.15/2 = Mdps
Mdps + Odps = 2* Mdps/1.15
We can simplify that as 2 / 1.15 equals 1.7391304 which gives us:
Mdps + Odps = 1.739 Mdps
Odps = 1.739 Mdps -1 Mdps
Odps = 0.739 Mdps
So the threshold is both weapons in 75% of each other, not 85%
For the given example with the 23.0 DPS axe, your DPS should rise as long as your second weapon has more than roughly 17 DPS.
I don´t have a betakey, but I would appreciate if someone confirms this.
[edit]
People commented on unneeded digits in the fraction. If you want accurate results you need those, dammit.
I recalculated with the daggers going to 1,72 from 1,5 changing the DW ias to 14,6%, changing the threshold to 74,4%
This is as good as it gets with only rounded numbers.
[/edit]
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The major difference between the WD and the Wizard is that the Wizard has free spells that work as solid main attacks.
The WD only has spells that cost mana. Even Poison dart, the lowest mana cost nuke the WD has, is still a net loss. With a 1.4 speed 2h axe.
This makes attack speed still benefitial to the Wizard in some way as he can dump his mana pool faster and just proceed onto his free spells for recovery mode.
The WD does not have a recovery mode, and therefore you want your mana bar to last as long as possible. Making slower better in all situations.
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Can you please provide a text post? I prefer to read this kind of information.
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On February 22 2012 21:58 Mataza wrote:Ugh. Please do actual math and calculate shit. It´s not hard and you very well do not need someone to tell you something when you can just put it on a piece of paper and have it in 10 minutes. Dual wielding increases DPS as long as the worse weapon has around 3/4(73.91%) of the DPS of the better weapon. 1. Dual Wield increases Attack speed by 15%, that´s the factor 1.15. 2. The actual DPS is the mean of the DPS of both weapons, thats a+b divided by 2. We want the point at which the dual wield dps equals the dps of the better(mainhand) weapon: (Mainhand dps + Offhand dps)*1.15/2 = Mainhand dps + Show Spoiler [Let me calculate that for you] +Mdps *1.15/2 + Odps *1.15/2 = Mdps
Mdps + Odps = 2* Mdps/1.15
We can simplify that as 2 / 1.15 equals 1.7391304 which gives us:
Mdps + Odps = 1.739 Mdps
Odps = 1.739 Mdps -1 Mdps
Odps = 0.739 Mdps So the threshold is both weapons in 75% of each other, not 85% For the given example with the 23.0 DPS axe, your DPS should rise as long as your second weapon has more than roughly 17 DPS. I don´t have a betakey, but I would appreciate if someone confirms this. [edit] People commented on unneeded digits in the fraction. If you want accurate results you need those, dammit. I recalculated with the daggers going to 1,72 from 1,5 changing the DW ias to 14,6%, changing the threshold to 74,4% This is as good as it gets with only rounded numbers. [/edit]
Bad attitude and bad math.
You didn't account for attack speed difference between weapons.
You also didn't account for the possibility of the second weapon having a increase to attack speed that transfers over to the first weapon.+ Show Spoiler +If you're curious, attack speed increases on weapons that are given in decimal form (this is rare) DO transfer over do other weapons. This is one way you can actually substitute a lower DPS weapon but still have your DPS go up. Attack speed increases given in percentage form (common) DO NOT transfer over to other weapons. Even if that weren't the case, you are still proven wrong by the fact that you didn't account for the difference in attack speed. Consider the following
You have a 100-100Damage 1APS Axe in your right hand and a 5-5Damage 1APS(5DPS) Sword in your left hand. If you then remove the Sword for a 1-1Damage 4APS(4DPS Sword, your DPS will go up even though the left hand's DPS is 4 instead of 5 because the axe will be attacking more often.
You also didn't account for the second weapon increasing the damage of the first weapon by adding to primary attribute, critical hit chance or critical hit damage.
If you can see now how many factors that have to be accounted for to see if a weapon is good or bad before you put it on then you'll see that it's silly to bother when you can just try it on.
Which is exactly what that part of the video was trying to get people to do.
Please lose the know it all attitude if you're going to continue posting in the thead and if you do I will thank you for your contribution.
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On February 25 2012 05:17 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 21:58 Mataza wrote:Ugh. Please do actual math and calculate shit. It´s not hard and you very well do not need someone to tell you something when you can just put it on a piece of paper and have it in 10 minutes. Dual wielding increases DPS as long as the worse weapon has around 3/4(73.91%) of the DPS of the better weapon. 1. Dual Wield increases Attack speed by 15%, that´s the factor 1.15. 2. The actual DPS is the mean of the DPS of both weapons, thats a+b divided by 2. We want the point at which the dual wield dps equals the dps of the better(mainhand) weapon: (Mainhand dps + Offhand dps)*1.15/2 = Mainhand dps + Show Spoiler [Let me calculate that for you] +Mdps *1.15/2 + Odps *1.15/2 = Mdps
Mdps + Odps = 2* Mdps/1.15
We can simplify that as 2 / 1.15 equals 1.7391304 which gives us:
Mdps + Odps = 1.739 Mdps
Odps = 1.739 Mdps -1 Mdps
Odps = 0.739 Mdps So the threshold is both weapons in 75% of each other, not 85% For the given example with the 23.0 DPS axe, your DPS should rise as long as your second weapon has more than roughly 17 DPS. I don´t have a betakey, but I would appreciate if someone confirms this. [edit] People commented on unneeded digits in the fraction. If you want accurate results you need those, dammit. I recalculated with the daggers going to 1,72 from 1,5 changing the DW ias to 14,6%, changing the threshold to 74,4% This is as good as it gets with only rounded numbers. [/edit] Bad attitude and bad math. You didn't account for attack speed difference between weapons. You also didn't account for the possibility of the second weapon having a increase to attack speed that transfers over to the first weapon. + Show Spoiler +If you're curious, attack speed increases on weapons that are given in decimal form (this is rare) DO transfer over do other weapons. This is one way you can actually substitute a lower DPS weapon but still have your DPS go up. Attack speed increases given in percentage form (common) DO NOT transfer over to other weapons. Even if that weren't the case, you are still proven wrong by the fact that you didn't account for the difference in attack speed. Consider the following
You have a 100-100Damage 1APS Axe in your right hand and a 5-5Damage 1APS(5DPS) Sword in your left hand. If you then remove the Sword for a 1-1Damage 4APS(4DPS Sword, your DPS will go up even though the left hand's DPS is 4 instead of 5 because the axe will be attacking more often. You also didn't account for the second weapon increasing the damage of the first weapon by adding to primary attribute, critical hit chance or critical hit damage. If you can see now how many factors that have to be accounted for to see if a weapon is good or bad before you put it on then you'll see that it's silly to bother when you can just try it on. Which is exactly what that part of the video was trying to get people to do. Please lose the know it all attitude if you're going to continue posting in the thead and if you do I will thank you for your contribution.
Well, I have to say that this guys post (and bad math :D) got me interested in the real answer to this question, that is, how do you tell just by looking at a weapon if it is bette or worse for your DPS. Obviously, you need to calculate out all your bonuses and whatnot (and the new calculator you posted I'm sure is great for that), but you should be able to tell looking at the two fundemental properties (damage and attacks per second) and see whether that item should be in the range of worse, same, or better.
I made a little spreadsheet for myself (I'd post it once I get it finished and polished) to help visualize the refutation you gave and that I already thought was correct, that differing weapon speeds will change the way the DPS might change. Again, I haven't gotten it finished, but there are some interesting implications:
1) Mataza is correct about look for things with ~75% DPS averaging out to about the same DPS as the primary weapon, except that is ONLY the case when the weapon speeds are the same.
2) There is a curve where, given X% of the original dps, you need the weapon speed to be increased by Y% to equal the original DPS (I'm working on this).
3) The faster the offhand weapon, the closer to the original DPS plus the bonus 15% (from speed) you get, even as the offhand dps goes to zero.
4) The greater DPS weapon should always be in the main hand (barring any other special game considerations).
5) Two weapons of the same DPS, even though they have different DMG & APS, will always yield an average of the original DPS plus the 15% bonus from speed.
Anyway, I just thought I'd throw this out there -- tickled my math bone today.
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On February 25 2012 05:17 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 21:58 Mataza wrote:Ugh. Please do actual math and calculate shit. It´s not hard and you very well do not need someone to tell you something when you can just put it on a piece of paper and have it in 10 minutes. Dual wielding increases DPS as long as the worse weapon has around 3/4(73.91%) of the DPS of the better weapon. 1. Dual Wield increases Attack speed by 15%, that´s the factor 1.15. 2. The actual DPS is the mean of the DPS of both weapons, thats a+b divided by 2. We want the point at which the dual wield dps equals the dps of the better(mainhand) weapon: (Mainhand dps + Offhand dps)*1.15/2 = Mainhand dps + Show Spoiler [Let me calculate that for you] +Mdps *1.15/2 + Odps *1.15/2 = Mdps
Mdps + Odps = 2* Mdps/1.15
We can simplify that as 2 / 1.15 equals 1.7391304 which gives us:
Mdps + Odps = 1.739 Mdps
Odps = 1.739 Mdps -1 Mdps
Odps = 0.739 Mdps So the threshold is both weapons in 75% of each other, not 85% For the given example with the 23.0 DPS axe, your DPS should rise as long as your second weapon has more than roughly 17 DPS. I don´t have a betakey, but I would appreciate if someone confirms this. [edit] People commented on unneeded digits in the fraction. If you want accurate results you need those, dammit. I recalculated with the daggers going to 1,72 from 1,5 changing the DW ias to 14,6%, changing the threshold to 74,4% This is as good as it gets with only rounded numbers. [/edit] Bad attitude and bad math. You didn't account for attack speed difference between weapons. You also didn't account for the possibility of the second weapon having a increase to attack speed that transfers over to the first weapon. + Show Spoiler +If you're curious, attack speed increases on weapons that are given in decimal form (this is rare) DO transfer over do other weapons. This is one way you can actually substitute a lower DPS weapon but still have your DPS go up. Attack speed increases given in percentage form (common) DO NOT transfer over to other weapons. Even if that weren't the case, you are still proven wrong by the fact that you didn't account for the difference in attack speed. Consider the following
You have a 100-100Damage 1APS Axe in your right hand and a 5-5Damage 1APS(5DPS) Sword in your left hand. If you then remove the Sword for a 1-1Damage 4APS(4DPS Sword, your DPS will go up even though the left hand's DPS is 4 instead of 5 because the axe will be attacking more often. You also didn't account for the second weapon increasing the damage of the first weapon by adding to primary attribute, critical hit chance or critical hit damage. If you can see now how many factors that have to be accounted for to see if a weapon is good or bad before you put it on then you'll see that it's silly to bother when you can just try it on. Which is exactly what that part of the video was trying to get people to do. Please lose the know it all attitude if you're going to continue posting in the thead and if you do I will thank you for your contribution.
I´m sorry to come off as rude and that rudeness was definitely not aimed at you.
I got annoyed at other posters demanding a formula, like this one:
+ Show Spoiler +On February 21 2012 16:02 Perseverance wrote:
Another thing you could think about doing is figuring out the formula (I'm sure there is one that can be found out in the beta) for dual wield weapons to be better/worse/or equal versus just using a single weapon.
I mean, my guess is people aren't going to search youtube/forums for videos explaining stuff that they can figure out in 30 seconds on their own, they are going to look on youtube/forums for formulas and meaningful numbers.
or giving out simply bad information, like this one:
+ Show Spoiler +On February 22 2012 17:29 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 16:22 Meta wrote:
When I played through the beta on a barbarian I was thoroughly unimpressed with dual wielding. It always seemed to lower my dps compared to using a single 2handed weapon. That's probably just the items at the start of act 1 though, late game items might be really high dps 1handers compared to 2handers. When you are dual wielding, if one weapon is at least 15% less damage than the other then your overall dps will be lower than if you used only the higher dps of the two. That is because...
My math isn´t bad btw, it´s just simplified. I just had the feeling if I go into a really indepth formula with lots of variables for attacks per second etc. that some people would demand something easier to make decisions on the fly.
If one takes up an offhand weapon for the stats it provides, like ias, crit% or flat out strength/agility/vitality, then you should consider it a stat stick rather than a weapon.
Comparing a vanilla weapon with high dps to another weapon with low dps but lots of stats on it is not an easy comparison. If someone figures that out for single weapons it will be rather easy to apply to dual wielding.
The point of my bad math though was to work with the facts presented in the video.
As for differing attack speeds, yes my blunder. If one had a weapon with 0 dps but that attacks incredibly fast, like 1 hit every 0.1 seconds, that would almost be 15% ias without any drawback. I´m saying almost. Note that things like this probably won´t be in the game.
I might look further into that. What are the most extreme(slowest & fastest) attack speeds weapon have in the beta so far? 1 APS or less, 2 APS or more?
On another topic, I somehow get the feeling 2h weapons will be largely inferior again, just like in D2.
[edit]
I checked the battlenet item guide for these infos.
The weapons range from 1.2 attacks per seconds to 1.69 attacks per second(only 1 legendary).
With these in mind I got 68% if you have 1.2 on the main weapon and 1.7 on the offhand. Or if you change them around 77%
If there was a weapon with 2 attacks per second these numbers would be 65% and 80%. Nothing outrageous really.
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