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On April 28 2012 10:10 Belial- wrote:
Another way to say this is that the attacks per second that is displayed isn't a true representation of how many attacks per second that weapon makes while dual-wielding, but is instead a representation of the delay between when your offhand finishes attacking and your mainhand begins attacking. Basically blizzard chose to represent it in a counterintuitive way when considering how dual-wielding in general works.
This is basically what I'm getting at, except that the attacks per second displayed isn't really indicative of anything at all. When I see attack speed of 1.38 attacks per second, I assume that weapon will attack 1.38 times per second. Period. The end. Full stop. If I see the other weapon has an attack speed of 1.72 attacks per second, I assume the same thing for that. That weapon will attack 1.72 times a second.
What you're saying is that it just isn't true. I don't see how it represents a delay in anyway, and if it represents a delay, how is that delay represented mathematically? Are you saying the true attack speed of your character is really an average of the 2 (i.e. (1.38 +1.72)/2)?
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On April 28 2012 10:30 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 10:10 Belial- wrote:
Another way to say this is that the attacks per second that is displayed isn't a true representation of how many attacks per second that weapon makes while dual-wielding, but is instead a representation of the delay between when your offhand finishes attacking and your mainhand begins attacking. Basically blizzard chose to represent it in a counterintuitive way when considering how dual-wielding in general works. This is basically what I'm getting at, except that the attacks per second displayed isn't really indicative of anything at all. When I see attack speed of 1.38 attacks per second, I assume that weapon will attack 1.38 times per second. Period. The end. Full stop. If I see the other weapon has an attack speed of 1.72 attacks per second, I assume the same thing for that. That weapon will attack 1.72 times a second. What you're saying is that it just isn't true. I don't see how it represents a delay in anyway, and if it represents a delay, how is that delay represented mathematically? Are you saying the true attack speed of your character is really an average of the 2 (i.e. (1.38 +1.72)/2)?
Essentially yes, your attack speed ends up being an average of the dual-wield modified attack speeds of both of your weapons. The reason I say it is representative of the delay between attacks is because you can calculate the delay between attacks by looking at that number. Why blizzard decided not to just display the time between attacks as opposed to attacks per second is beyond me, it would really clear this all up.
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On April 28 2012 10:38 Belial- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 10:30 HardlyNever wrote:On April 28 2012 10:10 Belial- wrote:
Another way to say this is that the attacks per second that is displayed isn't a true representation of how many attacks per second that weapon makes while dual-wielding, but is instead a representation of the delay between when your offhand finishes attacking and your mainhand begins attacking. Basically blizzard chose to represent it in a counterintuitive way when considering how dual-wielding in general works. This is basically what I'm getting at, except that the attacks per second displayed isn't really indicative of anything at all. When I see attack speed of 1.38 attacks per second, I assume that weapon will attack 1.38 times per second. Period. The end. Full stop. If I see the other weapon has an attack speed of 1.72 attacks per second, I assume the same thing for that. That weapon will attack 1.72 times a second. What you're saying is that it just isn't true. I don't see how it represents a delay in anyway, and if it represents a delay, how is that delay represented mathematically? Are you saying the true attack speed of your character is really an average of the 2 (i.e. (1.38 +1.72)/2)? Essentially yes, your attack speed ends up being an average of the dual-wield modified attack speeds of both of your weapons. The reason I say it is representative of the delay between attacks is because you can calculate the delay between attacks by looking at that number. Why blizzard decided not to just display the time between attacks as opposed to attacks per second is beyond me, it would really clear this all up.
Ok, I think we are on the same page. He might want to update the video, because the 2nd question (to my mind) asks if the character's attack speed is the average of the two weapon's attack speed (I know it is modified attack speed), and his answer seems to refute that, and says they don't affect each other at all (while technically true, because one weapon doesn't affect the speed of the other, it is misleading because your character's true attack speed is the average of the two modified speeds).
Edit: As for why they chose this way, I believe WoW displayed weapon speed as time between attacks, and people felt it was counter-intuitive that higher "attack speed" weapons actually swung slower than lower "attack speed" weapons. Both systems have their drawbacks.
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On April 28 2012 10:45 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 10:38 Belial- wrote:On April 28 2012 10:30 HardlyNever wrote:On April 28 2012 10:10 Belial- wrote:
Another way to say this is that the attacks per second that is displayed isn't a true representation of how many attacks per second that weapon makes while dual-wielding, but is instead a representation of the delay between when your offhand finishes attacking and your mainhand begins attacking. Basically blizzard chose to represent it in a counterintuitive way when considering how dual-wielding in general works. This is basically what I'm getting at, except that the attacks per second displayed isn't really indicative of anything at all. When I see attack speed of 1.38 attacks per second, I assume that weapon will attack 1.38 times per second. Period. The end. Full stop. If I see the other weapon has an attack speed of 1.72 attacks per second, I assume the same thing for that. That weapon will attack 1.72 times a second. What you're saying is that it just isn't true. I don't see how it represents a delay in anyway, and if it represents a delay, how is that delay represented mathematically? Are you saying the true attack speed of your character is really an average of the 2 (i.e. (1.38 +1.72)/2)? Essentially yes, your attack speed ends up being an average of the dual-wield modified attack speeds of both of your weapons. The reason I say it is representative of the delay between attacks is because you can calculate the delay between attacks by looking at that number. Why blizzard decided not to just display the time between attacks as opposed to attacks per second is beyond me, it would really clear this all up. Ok, I think we are on the same page. He might want to update the video, because the 2nd question (to my mind) asks if the character's attack speed is the average of the two weapon's attack speed (I know it is modified attack speed), and his answer seems to refute that, and says they don't affect each other at all (while technically true, because one weapon doesn't affect the speed of the other, it is misleading because your character's true attack speed is the average of the two modified speeds). Edit: As for why they chose this way, I believe WoW displayed weapon speed as time between attacks, and people felt it was counter-intuitive that higher "attack speed" weapons actually swung slower than lower "attack speed" weapons. Both systems have their drawbacks.
Your true attack speed is the sum of the reciprocal of each individual weapon's attacks per second, multiplied by the 15% bonus. It's not the average.
I actually just made a post about this on the b.net forums, though it deals with dual wielding dps, it's essentially the same thing:
dual wield dps = ([dmg1 + dmg2] / [ 1/aps1 + 1/aps2 ] ) x 1.15
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On April 28 2012 10:30 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 10:10 Belial- wrote:
Another way to say this is that the attacks per second that is displayed isn't a true representation of how many attacks per second that weapon makes while dual-wielding, but is instead a representation of the delay between when your offhand finishes attacking and your mainhand begins attacking. Basically blizzard chose to represent it in a counterintuitive way when considering how dual-wielding in general works. This is basically what I'm getting at, except that the attacks per second displayed isn't really indicative of anything at all. When I see attack speed of 1.38 attacks per second, I assume that weapon will attack 1.38 times per second. Period. The end. Full stop. If I see the other weapon has an attack speed of 1.72 attacks per second, I assume the same thing for that. That weapon will attack 1.72 times a second. What you're saying is that it just isn't true. I don't see how it represents a delay in anyway, and if it represents a delay, how is that delay represented mathematically? Are you saying the true attack speed of your character is really an average of the 2 (i.e. (1.38 +1.72)/2)?
Look, 1.38 attacks per second is a measurement and a representation, and looking st single wielding, it works, but for dual wielding, it can be counterintuitive. If you invert the value (I think that's the expression, I mean 1/x in any case) you get the duration of a swing, which seems to be what you're after. That is basically what the dual wield bonus does, reduces the swing time. And saying a 1.38 aps weapon always attacks 1.38 times a second is like saying a car doing 30 MPH always drives for an hour and always travels 30 miles.
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On April 28 2012 11:23 m00nchile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 10:30 HardlyNever wrote:On April 28 2012 10:10 Belial- wrote:
Another way to say this is that the attacks per second that is displayed isn't a true representation of how many attacks per second that weapon makes while dual-wielding, but is instead a representation of the delay between when your offhand finishes attacking and your mainhand begins attacking. Basically blizzard chose to represent it in a counterintuitive way when considering how dual-wielding in general works. This is basically what I'm getting at, except that the attacks per second displayed isn't really indicative of anything at all. When I see attack speed of 1.38 attacks per second, I assume that weapon will attack 1.38 times per second. Period. The end. Full stop. If I see the other weapon has an attack speed of 1.72 attacks per second, I assume the same thing for that. That weapon will attack 1.72 times a second. What you're saying is that it just isn't true. I don't see how it represents a delay in anyway, and if it represents a delay, how is that delay represented mathematically? Are you saying the true attack speed of your character is really an average of the 2 (i.e. (1.38 +1.72)/2)? Look, 1.38 attacks per second is a measurement and a representation, and looking st single wielding, it works, but for dual wielding, it can be counterintuitive. If you invert the value (I think that's the expression, I mean 1/x in any case) you get the duration of a swing, which seems to be what you're after. That is basically what the dual wield bonus does, reduces the swing time. And saying a 1.38 aps weapon always attacks 1.38 times a second is like saying a car doing 30 MPH always drives for an hour and always travels 30 miles.
Umm... not really.
I get having the weapon speed for all weapons in your inventory and in shops not be adjusted for gear, dual wielding etc., but when a character sheet has "attack speed" that is adjusted to reflect my gear and stuff, I would expect it to show my actual attack speed.
It is a closed game world, it can display whatever it wants, and better, what it is really needs to tell the players (i.e. it isn't affected by numerous outside factors like a car would be). I would expect this to change within a few months after release.
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On April 28 2012 12:09 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 11:23 m00nchile wrote:On April 28 2012 10:30 HardlyNever wrote:On April 28 2012 10:10 Belial- wrote:
Another way to say this is that the attacks per second that is displayed isn't a true representation of how many attacks per second that weapon makes while dual-wielding, but is instead a representation of the delay between when your offhand finishes attacking and your mainhand begins attacking. Basically blizzard chose to represent it in a counterintuitive way when considering how dual-wielding in general works. This is basically what I'm getting at, except that the attacks per second displayed isn't really indicative of anything at all. When I see attack speed of 1.38 attacks per second, I assume that weapon will attack 1.38 times per second. Period. The end. Full stop. If I see the other weapon has an attack speed of 1.72 attacks per second, I assume the same thing for that. That weapon will attack 1.72 times a second. What you're saying is that it just isn't true. I don't see how it represents a delay in anyway, and if it represents a delay, how is that delay represented mathematically? Are you saying the true attack speed of your character is really an average of the 2 (i.e. (1.38 +1.72)/2)? Look, 1.38 attacks per second is a measurement and a representation, and looking st single wielding, it works, but for dual wielding, it can be counterintuitive. If you invert the value (I think that's the expression, I mean 1/x in any case) you get the duration of a swing, which seems to be what you're after. That is basically what the dual wield bonus does, reduces the swing time. And saying a 1.38 aps weapon always attacks 1.38 times a second is like saying a car doing 30 MPH always drives for an hour and always travels 30 miles. Umm... not really. I get having the weapon speed for all weapons in your inventory and in shops not be adjusted for gear, dual wielding etc., but when a character sheet has "attack speed" that is adjusted to reflect my gear and stuff, I would expect it to show my actual attack speed. It is a closed game world, it can display whatever it wants, and better, what it is really needs to tell the players (i.e. it isn't affected by numerous outside factors like a car would be). I would expect this to change within a few months after release.
Ok, this is the last time I reply to you, as I feel I'm banging my head against a wall. 1.38 attacks per second is the exact same thing as saying 725ms per weapon swing. What you're saying is I drove 15 miles in half an hour, therefore I didn't average 30 MPH but 15 MP1/2H. Again, the representation Blizzard chose for weapon speed can be counterintuitive, but it's still valid. The old example, a 1.2 speed weapon goes to 1.38 when dual wielded. You just went from a 833ms swing to a 725ms swing. The weapon swings faster. If you equipped a pos in the offhand, that weapon attacks with lousy damage when it could have been the high damage weapon swinging. Less damage per time = less DPS.
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On April 28 2012 12:27 m00nchile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 12:09 HardlyNever wrote:On April 28 2012 11:23 m00nchile wrote:On April 28 2012 10:30 HardlyNever wrote:On April 28 2012 10:10 Belial- wrote:
Another way to say this is that the attacks per second that is displayed isn't a true representation of how many attacks per second that weapon makes while dual-wielding, but is instead a representation of the delay between when your offhand finishes attacking and your mainhand begins attacking. Basically blizzard chose to represent it in a counterintuitive way when considering how dual-wielding in general works. This is basically what I'm getting at, except that the attacks per second displayed isn't really indicative of anything at all. When I see attack speed of 1.38 attacks per second, I assume that weapon will attack 1.38 times per second. Period. The end. Full stop. If I see the other weapon has an attack speed of 1.72 attacks per second, I assume the same thing for that. That weapon will attack 1.72 times a second. What you're saying is that it just isn't true. I don't see how it represents a delay in anyway, and if it represents a delay, how is that delay represented mathematically? Are you saying the true attack speed of your character is really an average of the 2 (i.e. (1.38 +1.72)/2)? Look, 1.38 attacks per second is a measurement and a representation, and looking st single wielding, it works, but for dual wielding, it can be counterintuitive. If you invert the value (I think that's the expression, I mean 1/x in any case) you get the duration of a swing, which seems to be what you're after. That is basically what the dual wield bonus does, reduces the swing time. And saying a 1.38 aps weapon always attacks 1.38 times a second is like saying a car doing 30 MPH always drives for an hour and always travels 30 miles. Umm... not really. I get having the weapon speed for all weapons in your inventory and in shops not be adjusted for gear, dual wielding etc., but when a character sheet has "attack speed" that is adjusted to reflect my gear and stuff, I would expect it to show my actual attack speed. It is a closed game world, it can display whatever it wants, and better, what it is really needs to tell the players (i.e. it isn't affected by numerous outside factors like a car would be). I would expect this to change within a few months after release. Ok, this is the last time I reply to you, as I feel I'm banging my head against a wall. 1.38 attacks per second is the exact same thing as saying 725ms per weapon swing. What you're saying is I drove 15 miles in half an hour, therefore I didn't average 30 MPH but 15 MP1/2H. Again, the representation Blizzard chose for weapon speed can be counterintuitive, but it's still valid. The old example, a 1.2 speed weapon goes to 1.38 when dual wielded. You just went from a 833ms swing to a 725ms swing. The weapon swings faster. If you equipped a pos in the offhand, that weapon attacks with lousy damage when it could have been the high damage weapon swinging. Less damage per time = less DPS.
We're way passed that point... I was just saying your car analogy sucked lol.
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On April 28 2012 10:52 caradoc wrote:Your true attack speed is the sum of the reciprocal of each individual weapon's attacks per second, multiplied by the 15% bonus. It's not the average. I actually just made a post about this on the b.net forums, though it deals with dual wielding dps, it's essentially the same thing: dual wield dps = ([dmg1 + dmg2] / [ 1/aps1 + 1/aps2 ] ) x 1.15
Alright, I guess I didn't think it through completely, but wouldn't your attack speed total end up at the average of the two speeds anyway?
First hand attacks at 2 attacks per second, the other at 1 per second, for simplicity's sake let's say those are the speeds post modifier. Weapon 1 attacks after .5 seconds, then weapon two attacks 1 second later which ends that attack cycle in 1.5 seconds which is also the average of 2 and 1.
Or maybe I'm simplifying it too far...
Edit: Yeah, turns out I'm an idiot. After thinking about it I realized that that equates to 1.33 attacks per second >.>
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Assuming all things being equal (in terms of dps/speed) on weapons. What is the real gain of duel wielding over using a two hander, or even a one hander and a shield/offhand? My main's a DH, just started Act 3 on Nightmare (the story drove me away from the game once I beat it but I found a friend to play with) and I use a 2h crossbow and quiver. Assuming I found "like" dps/speed hand crossbows, would my net gain in "damage" just be that my attacks would be slightly faster?
Ignoring "those items aren't in the game!" outrage, going to use this as an example:
2 handed crossbow, 100dps (1.3aps), quiver with 10% attack speed.
vs.
Two one handed crossbows, 100dps (1.3aps).
If I'm reading everything right, I'd attack a teeny tiny bit faster while wielding two than when I'm not?
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EPT
