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On March 01 2011 08:25 NicolBolas wrote:
And all this is happening outside of Korea, where eSports barely existed a year ago. More of it might be happening inside of SK if KeSPA had just negotiated in good faith with Blizzard and come to a reasonable licensing agreement. But no; they couldn't do that.
If you look at it the other way, the KeSPA members might have already been sponsoring SC2 if Blizzard didn't get in their way. You may not realize this but the KeSPA members are the biggest and most consistent sponsors of e-sports in the world. Blizzard are the ones dictating the terms of the licensing agreements so if the onus of being reasonable falls on anyone, it is them.
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Ugh, I used to like Samsung. >
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serves Blizzard right for being a bully.
ActiBlizz wanted to make SCII a sport much like BW, but at the same time thinking they can privatize their games and tournaments, down to even how we play (no lan). ActiBlizz thinks Kespa should be paying Blizz for organizing tournaments, when infact it's Blizzard who should be paying kespa for all the publicity and large community they generated, just like how most top game companies pay WCG to put their games on the list. If it hadn't been for Kespa, BW would have been nothing more than a fad that died 6 or 7 years ago, regardless of how good the game was.
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On March 01 2011 10:20 Rashid wrote:
serves Blizzard right for being a bully.
ActiBlizz wanted to make SCII a sport much like BW, but at the same time thinking they can privatize their games and tournaments, down to even how we play (no lan). ActiBlizz thinks Kespa should be paying Blizz for organizing tournaments, when infact it's Blizzard who should be paying kespa for all the publicity and large community they generated, just like how most top game companies pay WCG to put their games on the list. If it hadn't been for Kespa, BW would have been nothing more than a fad that died 6 or 7 years ago, regardless of how good the game was.
lol you should read more carefully. WCG pay fees to the games that they choose for the tournament.
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I strongly nominate HoN as an official WCG game.
No bias.
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On March 01 2011 10:56 lazyfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 10:20 Rashid wrote:
serves Blizzard right for being a bully.
ActiBlizz wanted to make SCII a sport much like BW, but at the same time thinking they can privatize their games and tournaments, down to even how we play (no lan). ActiBlizz thinks Kespa should be paying Blizz for organizing tournaments, when infact it's Blizzard who should be paying kespa for all the publicity and large community they generated, just like how most top game companies pay WCG to put their games on the list. If it hadn't been for Kespa, BW would have been nothing more than a fad that died 6 or 7 years ago, regardless of how good the game was.
lol you should read more carefully. WCG pay fees to the games that they choose for the tournament.
Where did you get that from? most tournaments get paid by game companies to have them in the tournament. Riot gaming is a prefect example of that.
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On March 01 2011 11:30 MaYuu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 10:56 lazyfeet wrote:On March 01 2011 10:20 Rashid wrote:
serves Blizzard right for being a bully.
ActiBlizz wanted to make SCII a sport much like BW, but at the same time thinking they can privatize their games and tournaments, down to even how we play (no lan). ActiBlizz thinks Kespa should be paying Blizz for organizing tournaments, when infact it's Blizzard who should be paying kespa for all the publicity and large community they generated, just like how most top game companies pay WCG to put their games on the list. If it hadn't been for Kespa, BW would have been nothing more than a fad that died 6 or 7 years ago, regardless of how good the game was.
lol you should read more carefully. WCG pay fees to the games that they choose for the tournament. Where did you get that from? most tournaments get paid by game companies to have them in the tournament. Riot gaming is a prefect example of that.
from OP
But WCG disagreed, claiming that it will have trouble promoting the event and getting other partners if Blizzard games are excluded. To this, Samsung Electronics responded by saying "Go and get money from Blizzard, and all other game companies, the fees needed to run the events and fees for choosing their game [T/N: or "fees associated with choosing their game"].
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On March 01 2011 10:20 Rashid wrote:
serves Blizzard right for being a bully.
ActiBlizz wanted to make SCII a sport much like BW, but at the same time thinking they can privatize their games and tournaments, down to even how we play (no lan). ActiBlizz thinks Kespa should be paying Blizz for organizing tournaments, when infact it's Blizzard who should be paying kespa for all the publicity and large community they generated, just like how most top game companies pay WCG to put their games on the list. If it hadn't been for Kespa, BW would have been nothing more than a fad that died 6 or 7 years ago, regardless of how good the game was.
you make a lot of good points; blizzard basically made ZERO compromises with their sc2 plan -- they want to make esports a viable thing/sport, but at the same time they want 100% of all the rights of every tourney using their game, no lan, etc.
reminds me of Nintendo with Friend Codes except Nintendo never intended on being big on multi...
however, from what i hear, kespa sucked dick for players. bw players lived like shit (admittedly by choice) and sc2 houses/lifestyle seem to be a huge step up.
that said, samsung is one of those corps that rules the world (they do everything from construction to electronics), so this is sad.
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On March 01 2011 08:25 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +What Blizzard needs to do to make this a good e-sports game is to put in LAN feature and let the community do it's magic. The way they are clawing on to it right now will get it no where. Except that it is getting somewhere. SC2 is huge as an e-sport. There are tournaments hourly. People can make a living playing in SC2 tournaments if they're good enough. And all this is happening outside of Korea, where eSports barely existed a year ago. More of it might be happening inside of SK if KeSPA had just negotiated in good faith with Blizzard and come to a reasonable licensing agreement. But no; they couldn't do that. So I don't see how LAN would change anything about SC2's viability as an eSport. It's more likely that you just want LAN play, not that it's actually important. Show nested quote +On topic : SC2 should not be allowed as a WCG official game because it requires an internet connection : that s against the spirit of getting together to share an offline moment That's ridiculous. There's nothing in WCG that requires that games not involve internet connections.
I'm pretty sure SC2 would have gone the way it has been due to the fact that people jump on Blizzard games (look at Cataclysm) and tha KeSPA showed that with the right structure, Starcraft as an eSport can be viable. Don't think SC2 would have sold that much based on the original Brood War popularity and advertising alone.
Edit: To the above post, zero compromises? You mean the late addition of chat channels, the poor map pool, and the lack of LAN? How about the current plans to remove losses? I don't get how people can load up SC2, look at the BNet interface and think "esports game". I mean it's a good RTS, but...
Alternatively, think of what could have happened if KeSPA had picked up SC2. Possibilties are endless: SC2 on two TV stations from the get-go, working of new maps early, maybe the possible transition of the entire BW scene to SC2. Those reasons would have compelled the rest of the world to do the same as well. It's doubtful that KeSPA wouldn't try and do an English cast at Blizzard's behest. And wouldn't charge for it the way GOM initially wanted to.
Of course, it's a bit of a speculation, but history shows that that KeSPA takes Starcraft very seriously.
On a side note, maybe Stork can participate in those cell phone games, he loves them so much, surely that Protoss APM can carry him to victory.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 01 2011 14:04 IntoTheEmo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 08:25 NicolBolas wrote:What Blizzard needs to do to make this a good e-sports game is to put in LAN feature and let the community do it's magic. The way they are clawing on to it right now will get it no where. Except that it is getting somewhere. SC2 is huge as an e-sport. There are tournaments hourly. People can make a living playing in SC2 tournaments if they're good enough. And all this is happening outside of Korea, where eSports barely existed a year ago. More of it might be happening inside of SK if KeSPA had just negotiated in good faith with Blizzard and come to a reasonable licensing agreement. But no; they couldn't do that. So I don't see how LAN would change anything about SC2's viability as an eSport. It's more likely that you just want LAN play, not that it's actually important. On topic : SC2 should not be allowed as a WCG official game because it requires an internet connection : that s against the spirit of getting together to share an offline moment That's ridiculous. There's nothing in WCG that requires that games not involve internet connections. I'm pretty sure SC2 would have gone the way it has been due to the fact that people jump on Blizzard games (look at Cataclysm) and tha KeSPA showed that with the right structure, Starcraft as an eSport can be viable. Don't think SC2 would have sold that much based on the original Brood War popularity and advertising alone. Edit: To the above post, zero compromises? You mean the late addition of chat channels, the poor map pool, and the lack of LAN? How about the current plans to remove losses? I don't get how people can load up SC2, look at the BNet interface and think "esports game". I mean it's a good RTS, but... Alternatively, think of what could have happened if KeSPA had picked up SC2. Possibilties are endless: SC2 on two TV stations from the get-go, working of new maps early, maybe the possible transition of the entire BW scene to SC2. Those reasons would have compelled the rest of the world to do the same as well. It's doubtful that KeSPA wouldn't try and do an English cast at Blizzard's behest. And wouldn't charge for it the way GOM initially wanted to. Of course, it's a bit of a speculation, but history shows that that KeSPA takes Starcraft very seriously. On a side note, maybe Stork can participate in those cell phone games, he loves them so much, surely that Protoss APM can carry him to victory.
I think its good that KeSPA didnt maintain their stranglehold over the game (because they were so dominant over the SC market in Korea, it would be very difficult for any newcomers in SK to do anything SC2 related unless it was through KeSPA, I think resetting the playing field is healthy here, but not shutting MBC and OGN out completely...), but the problem is Blizzard is trying to 1up them in terms of being terrible...
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 01 2011 01:33 HeIios wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 00:00 maybenexttime wrote:On February 28 2011 19:24 HeIios wrote:
I'm sure blizzard is very concerned about recieving the money from the drop of ESPORTS in the ocean that is Blizzard/Activision ... Most of you demonize either Kespa or Blizzard, but in reality Blizzard only really wanted their own label on their own product, and Kespa wanted nothing to do with Blizzard. Now the fans are suffering and I think it's easy to see who is to blame. What a load of bullshit. Blizzard only wanted their own label on their own product? What? Did you read the list of their ridiculous demands? No sane person would agree to that bullshit. Blizzard did that knowing KeSPA won't accept such terms, and if they do, they're basically handing over the whole industry to blizzard. I was looking at the entirety of the feud between Blizzard and Kespa, not just selectively at the most recent events. The "ridiculous demands" as you call them only came in much later, to combat the complete and utter denial of Kespa to negotiate with Blizzard when televized BW just started off. So Kespa acted like a big entitled baby and now the gig is up and they are wailing and screaming and fighting with Blizzard in the sandbox. But Kespa is to blame, regardless if we believe that they are entitled or not.
Ok, so its basically a "I didnt start, it HE DID" situation...?
I think its pretty damn likely the reason KeSPA didnt want to negotiate with Blizz is because they had those retarded demands in there from the get go.
Note: I dont like KeSPA, I just dont like the way Blizzard is behaving either.
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On March 01 2011 11:51 lazyfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 11:30 MaYuu wrote:On March 01 2011 10:56 lazyfeet wrote:On March 01 2011 10:20 Rashid wrote:
serves Blizzard right for being a bully.
ActiBlizz wanted to make SCII a sport much like BW, but at the same time thinking they can privatize their games and tournaments, down to even how we play (no lan). ActiBlizz thinks Kespa should be paying Blizz for organizing tournaments, when infact it's Blizzard who should be paying kespa for all the publicity and large community they generated, just like how most top game companies pay WCG to put their games on the list. If it hadn't been for Kespa, BW would have been nothing more than a fad that died 6 or 7 years ago, regardless of how good the game was.
lol you should read more carefully. WCG pay fees to the games that they choose for the tournament. Where did you get that from? most tournaments get paid by game companies to have them in the tournament. Riot gaming is a prefect example of that. from OP But WCG disagreed, claiming that it will have trouble promoting the event and getting other partners if Blizzard games are excluded. To this, Samsung Electronics responded by saying "Go and get money from Blizzard, and all other game companies, the fees needed to run the events and fees for choosing their game [T/N: or "fees associated with choosing their game"].
Yeah, The fee they will have to pay if they run Blizzard game since Blizzard will charge you if you host a tournament on their game. As far as I know, they are the only ones that does that.
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Honestly I can't understand how you guys support Blizzard. Just because KeSPA sucks doesn't mean Blizzard have ANY reason to behave like they are doing.
Honestly, no sc2 at the WCG ?
that will be the first nail in the coffin for SC2 in South america (where I live and where i'm interested in making the e-sport grow) and for sure will spread to other places.
SC2 Should be a sport and not a product.
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On March 01 2011 18:15 Drakan wrote:
Honestly I can't understand how you guys support Blizzard. Just because KeSPA sucks doesn't mean Blizzard have ANY reason to behave like they are doing.
Honestly, no sc2 at the WCG ?
that will be the first nail in the coffin for SC2 in South america (where I live and where i'm interested in making the e-sport grow) and for sure will spread to other places.
SC2 Should be a sport and not a product.
We'd all like it to be this way, but because of the history of how BW literally exploded in terms of eSports, everyone's trying to do the same with SC2, especially since blizzard now knows the potential for it.
kespa like any other company wants to just make money, and secure their place in making said money (who wouldn't?) , blizzard's stooping to their level now, and is very capable to do so since they've solidified their grasp on the product. Shit's gonna get real soon and I hope WCG HAS blizz games.
*edit* Hi Jinro. Go Go Go!
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On March 01 2011 17:41 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 14:04 IntoTheEmo wrote:On March 01 2011 08:25 NicolBolas wrote:What Blizzard needs to do to make this a good e-sports game is to put in LAN feature and let the community do it's magic. The way they are clawing on to it right now will get it no where. Except that it is getting somewhere. SC2 is huge as an e-sport. There are tournaments hourly. People can make a living playing in SC2 tournaments if they're good enough. And all this is happening outside of Korea, where eSports barely existed a year ago. More of it might be happening inside of SK if KeSPA had just negotiated in good faith with Blizzard and come to a reasonable licensing agreement. But no; they couldn't do that. So I don't see how LAN would change anything about SC2's viability as an eSport. It's more likely that you just want LAN play, not that it's actually important. On topic : SC2 should not be allowed as a WCG official game because it requires an internet connection : that s against the spirit of getting together to share an offline moment That's ridiculous. There's nothing in WCG that requires that games not involve internet connections. I'm pretty sure SC2 would have gone the way it has been due to the fact that people jump on Blizzard games (look at Cataclysm) and tha KeSPA showed that with the right structure, Starcraft as an eSport can be viable. Don't think SC2 would have sold that much based on the original Brood War popularity and advertising alone. Edit: To the above post, zero compromises? You mean the late addition of chat channels, the poor map pool, and the lack of LAN? How about the current plans to remove losses? I don't get how people can load up SC2, look at the BNet interface and think "esports game". I mean it's a good RTS, but... Alternatively, think of what could have happened if KeSPA had picked up SC2. Possibilties are endless: SC2 on two TV stations from the get-go, working of new maps early, maybe the possible transition of the entire BW scene to SC2. Those reasons would have compelled the rest of the world to do the same as well. It's doubtful that KeSPA wouldn't try and do an English cast at Blizzard's behest. And wouldn't charge for it the way GOM initially wanted to. Of course, it's a bit of a speculation, but history shows that that KeSPA takes Starcraft very seriously. On a side note, maybe Stork can participate in those cell phone games, he loves them so much, surely that Protoss APM can carry him to victory. I think its good that KeSPA didnt maintain their stranglehold over the game (because they were so dominant over the SC market in Korea, it would be very difficult for any newcomers in SK to do anything SC2 related unless it was through KeSPA, I think resetting the playing field is healthy here, but not shutting MBC and OGN out completely...), but the problem is Blizzard is trying to 1up them in terms of being terrible...
That's a fair call too, GOM did also give foreigners a better chance to participate which might not have happened if KeSPA was in charge. But I can't help feel that with an SC structure already in place, things like SC2 being broadcast on TV and map designing would have been implemented early and smoothly. And the controversy with the Boxer-favored brackets, map drawing, and even the caster selection would not have happened.
I respect your coming out to voice your opinion on the issue as a progamer, especially since your career does depend on SC2. People need to realize what evil Blizzard is doing right now. Coupled with their recent actions both legally and in their game changes (not regarding balance), I cannot see how this is a step towards the growth of eSports, but rather the game company monopolizing and controlling the entire scene.
Samsung is not to blame here, they don't have much of a choice considering the circumstances.
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On March 01 2011 21:43 IntoTheEmo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 17:41 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 01 2011 14:04 IntoTheEmo wrote:On March 01 2011 08:25 NicolBolas wrote:What Blizzard needs to do to make this a good e-sports game is to put in LAN feature and let the community do it's magic. The way they are clawing on to it right now will get it no where. Except that it is getting somewhere. SC2 is huge as an e-sport. There are tournaments hourly. People can make a living playing in SC2 tournaments if they're good enough. And all this is happening outside of Korea, where eSports barely existed a year ago. More of it might be happening inside of SK if KeSPA had just negotiated in good faith with Blizzard and come to a reasonable licensing agreement. But no; they couldn't do that. So I don't see how LAN would change anything about SC2's viability as an eSport. It's more likely that you just want LAN play, not that it's actually important. On topic : SC2 should not be allowed as a WCG official game because it requires an internet connection : that s against the spirit of getting together to share an offline moment That's ridiculous. There's nothing in WCG that requires that games not involve internet connections. I'm pretty sure SC2 would have gone the way it has been due to the fact that people jump on Blizzard games (look at Cataclysm) and tha KeSPA showed that with the right structure, Starcraft as an eSport can be viable. Don't think SC2 would have sold that much based on the original Brood War popularity and advertising alone. Edit: To the above post, zero compromises? You mean the late addition of chat channels, the poor map pool, and the lack of LAN? How about the current plans to remove losses? I don't get how people can load up SC2, look at the BNet interface and think "esports game". I mean it's a good RTS, but... Alternatively, think of what could have happened if KeSPA had picked up SC2. Possibilties are endless: SC2 on two TV stations from the get-go, working of new maps early, maybe the possible transition of the entire BW scene to SC2. Those reasons would have compelled the rest of the world to do the same as well. It's doubtful that KeSPA wouldn't try and do an English cast at Blizzard's behest. And wouldn't charge for it the way GOM initially wanted to. Of course, it's a bit of a speculation, but history shows that that KeSPA takes Starcraft very seriously. On a side note, maybe Stork can participate in those cell phone games, he loves them so much, surely that Protoss APM can carry him to victory. I think its good that KeSPA didnt maintain their stranglehold over the game (because they were so dominant over the SC market in Korea, it would be very difficult for any newcomers in SK to do anything SC2 related unless it was through KeSPA, I think resetting the playing field is healthy here, but not shutting MBC and OGN out completely...), but the problem is Blizzard is trying to 1up them in terms of being terrible... That's a fair call too, GOM did also give foreigners a better chance to participate which might not have happened if KeSPA was in charge. But I can't help feel that with an SC structure already in place, things like SC2 being broadcast on TV and map designing would have been implemented early and smoothly. And the controversy with the Boxer-favored brackets, map drawing, and even the caster selection would not have happened. I respect your coming out to voice your opinion on the issue as a progamer, especially since your career does depend on SC2. People need to realize what evil Blizzard is doing right now. Coupled with their recent actions both legally and in their game changes (not regarding balance), I cannot see how this is a step towards the growth of eSports, but rather the game company monopolizing and controlling the entire scene. Samsung is not to blame here, they don't have much of a choice considering the circumstances.
This is the problem with so much opinion being thrown about on the internet. Most of the people who side with blizzard regarding this matter haven't seen the greatness of BW and they couldn't see the potential if KeSPA would have handled the SC2 scene or if you don't like KeSPA, what if OGN/MBC broadcasted SC2 on national TV? Just like what they did on SC:BW years ago, before the time of KeSPA.
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*snip* ....and even the caster selection would not have happened.
You have to remember that Tasteless started being the only english caster for Starcraft (in the Korean scene) for the GOM Starleague, and that KeSPA bullied it into being shut down.
If KeSPA ruled, we probably wouldn't have ANY english casting at all.
This is off the top of my head, others can feel free to correct me.
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Seriously, we dont need this drama right now. I just wanna focus on the games.
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On March 01 2011 22:33 iko wrote:You have to remember that Tasteless started being the only english caster for Starcraft (in the Korean scene) for the GOM Starleague, and that KeSPA bullied it into being shut down. If KeSPA ruled, we probably wouldn't have ANY english casting at all. This is off the top of my head, others can feel free to correct me.
As stated many times before, the players themselves had legitimate reason to pull out of the GOM Classic to prioritize the PL/MSL/OSL.
I started out SC watching Tasteless on GOM, if KeSPA worked with Blizzard for SC2, I'm pretty sure Blizzard would have pushed for an English cast, especially after the overwhelming initial response to the game, and the fact that they want worldwide exposure.
I really don't see why KeSPA can't do the things that GOM has done, surely with Blizzard's support they'd be able to pull an English cast together and stream it. Not to mention they make badass intros.
But yeah getting a little offtopic, many signs point to Blizzard being the main cause of this, not Samsung.
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On March 01 2011 21:43 IntoTheEmo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 17:41 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 01 2011 14:04 IntoTheEmo wrote:On March 01 2011 08:25 NicolBolas wrote:What Blizzard needs to do to make this a good e-sports game is to put in LAN feature and let the community do it's magic. The way they are clawing on to it right now will get it no where. Except that it is getting somewhere. SC2 is huge as an e-sport. There are tournaments hourly. People can make a living playing in SC2 tournaments if they're good enough. And all this is happening outside of Korea, where eSports barely existed a year ago. More of it might be happening inside of SK if KeSPA had just negotiated in good faith with Blizzard and come to a reasonable licensing agreement. But no; they couldn't do that. So I don't see how LAN would change anything about SC2's viability as an eSport. It's more likely that you just want LAN play, not that it's actually important. On topic : SC2 should not be allowed as a WCG official game because it requires an internet connection : that s against the spirit of getting together to share an offline moment That's ridiculous. There's nothing in WCG that requires that games not involve internet connections. I'm pretty sure SC2 would have gone the way it has been due to the fact that people jump on Blizzard games (look at Cataclysm) and tha KeSPA showed that with the right structure, Starcraft as an eSport can be viable. Don't think SC2 would have sold that much based on the original Brood War popularity and advertising alone. Edit: To the above post, zero compromises? You mean the late addition of chat channels, the poor map pool, and the lack of LAN? How about the current plans to remove losses? I don't get how people can load up SC2, look at the BNet interface and think "esports game". I mean it's a good RTS, but... Alternatively, think of what could have happened if KeSPA had picked up SC2. Possibilties are endless: SC2 on two TV stations from the get-go, working of new maps early, maybe the possible transition of the entire BW scene to SC2. Those reasons would have compelled the rest of the world to do the same as well. It's doubtful that KeSPA wouldn't try and do an English cast at Blizzard's behest. And wouldn't charge for it the way GOM initially wanted to. Of course, it's a bit of a speculation, but history shows that that KeSPA takes Starcraft very seriously. On a side note, maybe Stork can participate in those cell phone games, he loves them so much, surely that Protoss APM can carry him to victory. I think its good that KeSPA didnt maintain their stranglehold over the game (because they were so dominant over the SC market in Korea, it would be very difficult for any newcomers in SK to do anything SC2 related unless it was through KeSPA, I think resetting the playing field is healthy here, but not shutting MBC and OGN out completely...), but the problem is Blizzard is trying to 1up them in terms of being terrible... That's a fair call too, GOM did also give foreigners a better chance to participate which might not have happened if KeSPA was in charge. But I can't help feel that with an SC structure already in place, things like SC2 being broadcast on TV and map designing would have been implemented early and smoothly. And the controversy with the Boxer-favored brackets, map drawing, and even the caster selection would not have happened. I respect your coming out to voice your opinion on the issue as a progamer, especially since your career does depend on SC2. People need to realize what evil Blizzard is doing right now. Coupled with their recent actions both legally and in their game changes (not regarding balance), I cannot see how this is a step towards the growth of eSports, but rather the game company monopolizing and controlling the entire scene. Samsung is not to blame here, they don't have much of a choice considering the circumstances.
KeSPA didn't bother with foreigners in BW to the degree gretech does with sc2 because there simply are/were not enough good foreign players. Just look up Hexatron and foreign BW progamers.
Look at KeSPA/OGN/MBC leagues for WC3. Those were rather friendly towards non-Koreans. 4K and SK (I think?) moved to Korea for a while.
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EPT
