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On February 07 2011 13:07 nybbas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2011 13:01 Leviance wrote:Hmm, MichaelJLowell I think you are under the impression that going to a bar is something "special", like something that not everyone does, but in Europe (well Germany at least) you will hardly find a person who considers going to a bar/club/disco is something out of the ordinary, it is a very normal thing to do over here and really everyone in DeMuslim's age does it. It might be that it's just a little cultural difference here because you say he shouldn't put himself in a risk by doing that, but over here this goes more into the direction of "he shouldn't get in a car because he's taking the risk of having an accident", because as almost everyone is in a car regularly, almost everyone is in a bar/club/disco regularly, hence it is not considered to be something one should reconsider doing. It's part of every-day life over here. I'm just trying to understand how you think going to a bar shouldn't be allowed, maybe you just don't realize how much of an every-day activity it is over here and because of that all the European posters just don't get your point. Maybe this helps a little  The problem is, I am fairly certain in any modern day culture, going to the "bar" is an incredibly common practice. This is why I am convinced he is purely trolling, and we are just feeding it :/
Yeah, I became familiar with that when I realized most of the people who vehemently disagreed with me were European. The issue I have with the cultural argument is that I would have said the same thing if the headline something as simple as "DeMusliM breaks hand playing basketball game", unless Evil Geniuses signed off on it.
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I don't think you guys quite understand what he's saying. He's not saying going to a bar is bad. He's not saying that it's not extremely commonplace. He's saying that if it's a risky activity, as someone with a lot to lose, he shouldn't take part in it. Going to bars is extremely common in the U.S. but sometimes stupid things happen. Everyone knows that when something bad happens it often happens to the person with the most to lose, or they get blamed for it. Many professional athletes in the U.S. are contractually obligated to all sorts of restrictions during their seasons to avoid any possibility of injury or legal trouble that might hinder their ability to perform their job. Going out drinking is a recognized risk, however commonplace it may be. Also, very fun. 
Edit:
On February 07 2011 13:30 MichaelJLowell wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2011 13:07 nybbas wrote:On February 07 2011 13:01 Leviance wrote:Hmm, MichaelJLowell I think you are under the impression that going to a bar is something "special", like something that not everyone does, but in Europe (well Germany at least) you will hardly find a person who considers going to a bar/club/disco is something out of the ordinary, it is a very normal thing to do over here and really everyone in DeMuslim's age does it. It might be that it's just a little cultural difference here because you say he shouldn't put himself in a risk by doing that, but over here this goes more into the direction of "he shouldn't get in a car because he's taking the risk of having an accident", because as almost everyone is in a car regularly, almost everyone is in a bar/club/disco regularly, hence it is not considered to be something one should reconsider doing. It's part of every-day life over here. I'm just trying to understand how you think going to a bar shouldn't be allowed, maybe you just don't realize how much of an every-day activity it is over here and because of that all the European posters just don't get your point. Maybe this helps a little The problem is, I am fairly certain in any modern day culture, going to the "bar" is an incredibly common practice. This is why I am convinced he is purely trolling, and we are just feeding it :/ Yeah, I became familiar with that when I realized most of the people who vehemently disagreed with me were European. The issue I have with the cultural argument is that I would have said the same thing if the headline something as simple as "DeMusliM breaks hand playing basketball game", unless Evil Geniuses signed off on it.
Exactly.
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On February 07 2011 13:20 socommaster123 wrote:
MJL just needs to relax. Im sure Demuslim regrets his actions and really we understand your take on the situation MJL. I understand how you are one of those people that always needs the last word to feel good about him/herself, but at this point whether people agree to disagree, your posts are becoming stagnant and full of repetitive comments and opinions. If you have something new to say, say it, but we understand your position.
Posted nearly 200 replies ago:
On February 04 2011 04:13 MichaelJLowell wrote:
I've already made my side of the argument. You don't agree, whatever. I'm just going to end up repeating my arguments ad nauseum until every person on TeamLiquid has read this thread. Later.
I only felt it was necessary to continue replying to posts because 1) DeMusliM's father chimed in on what I had to say, and 2) Someone relayed a message I made on another message board ("I think TeamLiquid is going to ban me") and came to the conclusion I was deliberately trying to make a ruckus. I wasn't and I felt it was necessary to defend that I wasn't, lest I do get banned.
On February 07 2011 13:32 AmishNukes wrote:I don't think you guys quite understand what he's saying. He's not saying going to a bar is bad. He's not saying that it's not extremely commonplace. He's saying that if it's a risky activity, as someone with a lot to lose, he shouldn't take part in it. Going to bars is extremely common in the U.S. but sometimes stupid things happen. Everyone knows that when something bad happens it often happens to the person with the most to lose, or they get blamed for it. Many professional athletes in the U.S. are contractually obligated to all sorts of restrictions during their seasons to avoid any possibility of injury or legal trouble that might hinder their ability to perform their job. Going out drinking is a recognized risk, however commonplace it may be. Also, very fun.
Thank you. ^^
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On February 07 2011 13:30 MichaelJLowell wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2011 13:07 nybbas wrote:On February 07 2011 13:01 Leviance wrote:Hmm, MichaelJLowell I think you are under the impression that going to a bar is something "special", like something that not everyone does, but in Europe (well Germany at least) you will hardly find a person who considers going to a bar/club/disco is something out of the ordinary, it is a very normal thing to do over here and really everyone in DeMuslim's age does it. It might be that it's just a little cultural difference here because you say he shouldn't put himself in a risk by doing that, but over here this goes more into the direction of "he shouldn't get in a car because he's taking the risk of having an accident", because as almost everyone is in a car regularly, almost everyone is in a bar/club/disco regularly, hence it is not considered to be something one should reconsider doing. It's part of every-day life over here. I'm just trying to understand how you think going to a bar shouldn't be allowed, maybe you just don't realize how much of an every-day activity it is over here and because of that all the European posters just don't get your point. Maybe this helps a little The problem is, I am fairly certain in any modern day culture, going to the "bar" is an incredibly common practice. This is why I am convinced he is purely trolling, and we are just feeding it :/ Yeah, I became familiar with that when I realized most of the people who vehemently disagreed with me were European. The issue I have with the cultural argument is that I would have said the same thing if the headline something as simple as "DeMusliM breaks hand playing basketball game", unless Evil Geniuses signed off on it.
Yeah I understand that you never said it was a bad thing and I did before I wrote this, but even playing a basketball game is not comparable, it's not what everyone does, it approaches, but really in Germany going to bar is not like playing a basketball game because not everyone plays basketball/does sports - I'm just trying to convince you that it is even more than just "common", and the development of the thread just makes perfect sense to me taking into account that you somewhat understand but don't have any idea (how should you, you're not living over here) that going to a bar is more an activity like going to a supermarket, NOT like playing a basketball game/do other fun stuff, you know, it really comes down only to that, that it is extremely every-day life; As I stated, in my opinion it makes perfect sense(!) how a whole thread could grow into this because the measurement of the cultures is extremely off, that's why no one gets the points of the others, and you can kind of see how the American posters that disagree with you "kind of" support the idea of the "commonness" but the Europeans really take this already completely for granted that it is the most common thing to do not even understanding how you could reconsider it.
And you might laugh now, but I could very well imagine that if DeMusliM broke his arm skiing/doing other sports; you would have found more people from Europe that would have agreed with you why he takes such a risk when he needs his arms and hands for progaming than you find now, it would have been a more even pro/con ratio :D
I didn't even wanna get involved into the discussion, but these subtle cultural differences are interesting and needed to be pointed out, because often no one realizes them in an argument that has gotten out of hand. Everyone is looking through his cultural glasses to some extent.
Edit: a little more of my understanding:
All the people who agree with you in this thread that DeMu shouldn't have "taken the risk" of going into a bar would of course also agree with you if he broke his arm doing sports that doing this sport was too much of a risk.
Most of the American people who agree with the European 'disagreers' in this thread would probably also disagree with your opinion on the sports thing.
If it actually was an sports accident, you would find all the Europeans who disagreed with you in this thread split in about half, some thinking it's too much of a risk, some thinking it's bad luck but sports shouldn't be forbidden for progamers.
Hope this makes somewhat sense to you.
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Makes sense to me. The pub is a cultural separation, but the alcohol thing is really no different in the States. I'm sure "But I was drunk!" is just as common there. Just do keep in mind that as far as the "it would be an accident to get hurt playing basketball" thing, one of our baseball players (Aaron Boone) had his contract voided by the Yankees when he blew out his knee playing basketball. There's tons of precedent for American athletes getting the hammer from their clubs for off-hand recreational activities. I can't find any instance of a European star athlete having a contract voided for any of these things, so unless somebody wants to correct me on that, it probably explains a couple of things.
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Hope Demuslim has a speedy recovery.
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On February 07 2011 16:01 MichaelJLowell wrote:
Makes sense to me. The pub is a cultural separation, but the alcohol thing is really no different in the States. I'm sure "But I was drunk!" is just as common there. Just do keep in mind that as far as the "it would be an accident to get hurt playing basketball" thing, one of our baseball players (Aaron Boone) had his contract voided by the Yankees when he blew out his knee playing basketball. There's tons of precedent for American athletes getting the hammer from their clubs for off-hand recreational activities. I can't find any instance of a European star athlete having a contract voided for any of these things, so unless somebody wants to correct me on that, it probably explains a couple of things.
and some of these clauses include getting jumped at a club? Because hasn't that been pretty much the entire basis of your argument up until now?
I understand very clearly that athletes can get in trouble for injuring themselves for doing things like playing basketball etc. and I understand how that is in their contracts; however, have you really seen instances where athletes are putting their contracts at risk by going to a bar? Because you have somehow been making a leap of a connection between very risky recreational activity, and going to bars...
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
RotterdaM08 Kevin van der Kooi DeMusliM is a free man again, whee Fired from ze krankenhaus! :D
Ben's out of hospital it seems, here's to a speedy recovery ^^
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Correct :p, or atleast anytime soon, dropped him a visit before going to work but the docs said he was free to go, now he has some time to rest and before you guys know it, he's back :D
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nice to hear he is doing all right, hope he recovers fast and takes back #1. demu fighting!
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On February 04 2011 00:42 MichaelJLowell wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 00:36 meRz wrote:On February 04 2011 00:30 MichaelJLowell wrote:On February 04 2011 00:27 ranjutan wrote:On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote:
Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though. Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled. So "going out drinking and getting into fights" ( how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior? Getting into a fight can happen to anyone, I mean if you encounter a drunk moron who really wants to fight there's like very little you can do to prevent it other than getting the hell out of there asap. Don't be so judgemental, shit happends, people drink, DemusliM always acts superb and manner in front of the cameras. I don't buy "shit happens, people drink" as an excuse. Now yes, I am being judgmental. But that's because regardless of whether he instigated the situation or not and did everything he could to avoid fighting or not, he now has a broken hand to show for it. He now has to wait for the thing to heal until he can continue supporting himself. If I was one of the team managers, I'd be rightly pissed. I'm not going to go as far as to say that DeMusliM should lock himself in his room and never leave the thing again, but there's a risk associated with what he did. You can debate how much of a risk there is, but there was one.
What I do not get is why you started this argument at all. Fine, so you think people should cease doing fun activities that involve some risk when they are being paid. That`s okay, you`re entitled to your opinion. But you knew that this would spark a controversy, you said so later yourself. So why even post it? And besides that, why keep on "debating" it? You expressed your argument, and opinion, no need to reiterate it over and over and over and over.
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On February 07 2011 19:05 Grend wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 00:42 MichaelJLowell wrote:On February 04 2011 00:36 meRz wrote:On February 04 2011 00:30 MichaelJLowell wrote:On February 04 2011 00:27 ranjutan wrote:On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote:
Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though. Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled. So "going out drinking and getting into fights" ( how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior? Getting into a fight can happen to anyone, I mean if you encounter a drunk moron who really wants to fight there's like very little you can do to prevent it other than getting the hell out of there asap. Don't be so judgemental, shit happends, people drink, DemusliM always acts superb and manner in front of the cameras. I don't buy "shit happens, people drink" as an excuse. Now yes, I am being judgmental. But that's because regardless of whether he instigated the situation or not and did everything he could to avoid fighting or not, he now has a broken hand to show for it. He now has to wait for the thing to heal until he can continue supporting himself. If I was one of the team managers, I'd be rightly pissed. I'm not going to go as far as to say that DeMusliM should lock himself in his room and never leave the thing again, but there's a risk associated with what he did. You can debate how much of a risk there is, but there was one. What I do not get is why you started this argument at all. Fine, so you think people should cease doing fun activities that involve some risk when they are being paid. That`s okay, you`re entitled to your opinion. But you knew that this would spark a controversy, you said so later yourself. So why even post it? And besides that, why keep on "debating" it? You expressed your argument, and opinion, no need to reiterate it over and over and over and over.
Agree.
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On February 07 2011 18:34 nybbas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2011 16:01 MichaelJLowell wrote:
Makes sense to me. The pub is a cultural separation, but the alcohol thing is really no different in the States. I'm sure "But I was drunk!" is just as common there. Just do keep in mind that as far as the "it would be an accident to get hurt playing basketball" thing, one of our baseball players (Aaron Boone) had his contract voided by the Yankees when he blew out his knee playing basketball. There's tons of precedent for American athletes getting the hammer from their clubs for off-hand recreational activities. I can't find any instance of a European star athlete having a contract voided for any of these things, so unless somebody wants to correct me on that, it probably explains a couple of things. and some of these clauses include getting jumped at a club? Because hasn't that been pretty much the entire basis of your argument up until now? I understand very clearly that athletes can get in trouble for injuring themselves for doing things like playing basketball etc. and I understand how that is in their contracts; however, have you really seen instances where athletes are putting their contracts at risk by going to a bar? Because you have somehow been making a leap of a connection between very risky recreational activity, and going to bars...
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/2008/11/29/2008-11-29_giants_receiver_plaxico_burress_accident.html
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=100441&page=1
http://www.absolutenow.com/mugshots/charles_barkley.html
http://www.theindychannel.com/sports/15616227/detail.html
http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2010-11-12/flames-brett-sutter-arrested-after-bar-fight
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/sports/22665319/detail.html
http://www.statesman.com/sports/pro/cedric-benson-arrested-following-bar-fight-777096.html
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/10/05/braylon-edwards-faces-assault-accusation/
And that just involves professional athletes. I'm sure I could keep digging if I wanted to go with the college game. The top link involved an illegal firearm, which is another can of worms all in itself, that a lot of these players feel it's absolutely necessary to carry guns in these places whether they're allowed to have them or not.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/240427-no-lesson-learned-the-nfl-gun-culture-wont-end-with-plaxico-burress
On February 07 2011 19:05 Grend wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 00:42 MichaelJLowell wrote:On February 04 2011 00:36 meRz wrote:On February 04 2011 00:30 MichaelJLowell wrote:On February 04 2011 00:27 ranjutan wrote:On February 04 2011 00:20 Irrational_Animal wrote:
Sucks alot but headlines like this do not make him seem very professional though. Yes a true professional would never go out drinking. I mean who ever heard of a businessman going out drinking??? I am appalled. So "going out drinking and getting into fights" ( how the fight started is completely unimportant) is now professional behavior? Getting into a fight can happen to anyone, I mean if you encounter a drunk moron who really wants to fight there's like very little you can do to prevent it other than getting the hell out of there asap. Don't be so judgemental, shit happends, people drink, DemusliM always acts superb and manner in front of the cameras. I don't buy "shit happens, people drink" as an excuse. Now yes, I am being judgmental. But that's because regardless of whether he instigated the situation or not and did everything he could to avoid fighting or not, he now has a broken hand to show for it. He now has to wait for the thing to heal until he can continue supporting himself. If I was one of the team managers, I'd be rightly pissed. I'm not going to go as far as to say that DeMusliM should lock himself in his room and never leave the thing again, but there's a risk associated with what he did. You can debate how much of a risk there is, but there was one. What I do not get is why you started this argument at all. Fine, so you think people should cease doing fun activities that involve some risk when they are being paid. That`s okay, you`re entitled to your opinion. But you knew that this would spark a controversy, you said so later yourself. So why even post it? And besides that, why keep on "debating" it? You expressed your argument, and opinion, no need to reiterate it over and over and over and over.
Go read what I originally wrote, the first significant post I made in the thread, my original detailed explanation, my original declaration that I was done with the thread because people were making the same comments over and over that I had already addressed, which I then had to go back on because of how the thread transpired later. If I hadn't seen that DeMusliM's father had addressed me (which I caught on the very first page because I wanted to see if the official account had changed), I would have kept it that way.
On February 07 2011 19:05 Grend wrote:
But you knew that this would spark a controversy, you said so later yourself. So why even post it?
So you're not allowed to say typically unoffensive things on message boards if there's a chance it could offend the user base?
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Ouch sucks, one of my favo terran players :[ get well man
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Pretty sure you still can't play professional with a broken leg but I hope DeMusliM get's better soon and returns back to the scene ASAP. Take Care.
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So you're not allowed to say typically unoffensive things on message boards if there's a chance it could offend the user base?
So someone's not allowed to do a typically risk free thing in real life if there's a chance he/someone else could have their livelyhood/personal wellbeing harmed/jeapordized?
Yeah, now you really are clutching at straws.
Speedy recovery wished to the brit 'tho
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I could always tell that Rotterdam was a bad influence! 
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Cheers for the support fellows , just got out and feeling pretty alright.
Will hopefully be back up and running soon
Would love to write more, but it's a lil frustrating with just one hand!
Just thanks again,
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@ MichaelJLowell i cant believe what im reading .. are u serious?
To Ben , shit happens, hope u get well soon!
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EPT
