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United States7483 Posts
NPO (non-profit organisations) means that they don't aim to get rich.
They are allowed to make profits to sustain their organisation.
Incorrect. What a Non-profit organization literally means is that any and all profits (positive difference in revenue and costs) must go directly back into the organization. However, that is past the point of sustainability, as you merely must break even to sustain. Profits for an NPO go into expansion and growth.
What KeSPA said was that they run smaller for profit companies on the side to generate sufficient revenue in order to break even with regards to the NPO portion, as otherwise they would operate at a cost. This is legal in the United States and done frequently, I assume it's legal in Korea.
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dam this thing is so complicated. hopefully they can find a common ground to settle on. they should just play for it in a game of starcraft lol.
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The NFL is a non-profit entity, too. I'm pretty sure MLB is a non-profit as well. Being an NPO means nothing and it's not an excuse to dodge IP rights. I could claim that I acknowledge the IP rights of the artists whenever I download songs from MIRC, too.
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On December 04 2010 00:14 gslavik wrote:This is why video games cannot be any type of sport. Sport should only require the purchase of equipment and in case of many sports, you can improvise or do away with some equipment complete. For example, in the 1950 FIFA World Cup, India (having received their freedom from UK 2 years prior) was absent, because FIFA would not allow the Indian Soccer team to play without shoes. In some tropical countries, kids use coconuts instead of balls to play football (sorry, soccer) because they cannot afford to buy a ball. Buying a copy of SC2 cannot considered an equipment purchase (my argument here is that the computer system is the equipment). Think of any athletic sport. Is there any corporation that wants their IP acknowledged? KeSPA spent 10 years making a pie and Blizzard only now wants a piece of it. Did Blizzard do anything for eSports? On another note, have you heard of idSoftware, Valve, or Epic demand license fees from CPL/CAL? (There were many other games played in CPL/CAL) Why didn't Blizzard demand fees from MLG and WCG? Why is a corporation that sells copies of a game allowed to decide on all rules of said game thereby influencing any type of tournament play? NBA and FIBA have different rules and court specifications. Likewise for MLS, FIFA, UEFA. Tournament/League organizers should be setting game rules (like requiring a factory for research or how much damage a certain unit does or takes to build and etc), not a corporation which does not have a vested interest in the tournament/league. Blizzard, double standard much? When SC2 came out, the layman knew two things: 1. it's a sequel 2. it's a career in South Korea (told by those that play games and know) I don't think SC2 sales would have been at the same level if KeSPA had not been around for the last 10 years (by KeSPA, I mean the South Korean eSports scene). If broadcasting SC2 games is considered a derivative work, then why aren't all the streamers on TL pay Blizzard a licensing fee for transmitting their IP? Sean Plott (aka Day[9]), receives over ten thousand views for his daily show 5 days a week. Imagine if Blizzard decided to charge him 1 dollar for each viewer as a license fee. 10,000 * 5 * 52 = 2,600,000USD per year. Hint: Sean, consider charging your viewers 1USD per daily.  Why are we even talking about IP? How can you have intellectual property? If you have an idea and you let it out, it's not your own anymore, it is now in public domain. You are still the author, but you can't just come in and restrict someone from implementing it. If you draw something, you produce an artwork. Are games art? Artwork is not intellectual property. Artwork is a product, how you sell it, reproduce it, etc. is up to you. A wise man once said: Tape backups are for wimps, real men put their code on a public ftp server and let the world mirror it. Sincerely, BearJewSlava.584
can we please stop comparing everything in starcraft to normal sports? It's like comparing apples and oranges, sure they're both fruits but not everything is comparable between them.
Also as much as I enjoy the day9 dailies, $1 per show is not sustainable at all. You have people having a bitch fest regarding paying $15 for 40 hours of content for the GSL so I doubt people would pay $1 per hour for the daily. To get a idea of how ridiculous your numbers are, $2.6 million per year is 10 times the amount Blizzard wants for the broadcasting fees for BW ($88k * 3 seasons = $264k).
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thanks for the translation!
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On December 04 2010 01:54 VManOfMana wrote:
Regarding common points in this thread's comments:
1. KeSPA's stance
KeSPA's stance has not changed, nor they are softening up. It has been stated repeatedly that KeSPA has no problem regarding Blizzard's IP—it's about the licensing terms. Derivative work IP, control, and Blizzard power to audit have been in debate even before Gretech got the Starcraft IP license.
2. NaDa
Blown out of proportion. Translators in this thread already explained what happened. And really, the accusations follow no logic. Why only NaDa? Boxer, July, and several other peogamers switched before NaDa.
If you can't come out with a better answer than "because KeSPA are jerks", don't bother. If you make an accusation, back it up.
3. Profit
Already responded multiple times. Unless there is evidence KeSPA breaks te rules of non-profit organizations, the argument is moot. Non-profits also need revenue to work; and non-profits aré not exclusively dependant on grants.
4. Blizzard does has the right to get compensated for their IP. However, licensing parties should also be able to challenge terms, especially if they are anticompetitive. IP law is not black and white, all or nothing, and this is a good opportunity to interpret it so that Blizzard gets compensated while KeSPA (and whatever licensor) keep the rights of derivative works (this is a good thing). As KeSPA is the first organization that managed to make a real eSport organization, this case is what will set precedence for future rulings. So this will affect not only KeSPA, but also Gretech and whoever wants to make any professional environment in the future. In a way, Gretech wins long-term if KeSPA wins, especially if in the future they want to branch out or go independent from Blizzard.
I am not saying Blizzard should not get compensated. Ideally, I think it should be a share of the revenue proportional to the total revenue. I don't even think Gretech could pay their own license fees per tournament if they had to.
When KeSPA formed, they began to request broadcasting fees from the gaming channels to fund which was something Blizzard didn't like but they tolerated. When GOMTV wanted to start their own league and help bring in the foreign base, they went to Blizzard Entertainment directly for permission to use StarCraft in televised matches (something KeSPA did not do). Blizzard was more than willing to allow GOMTV to do that. About a season or two into these Intel Classic leagues, KeSPA began to demand payment from GOMTV for broadcasting StarCraft leagues without their permission. GOMTV refused on the grounds that they had direct permission from the manufacture of the game. As a result, KeSPA made the games not count for the 3rd season. When time for the 4th season to come, KeSPA began threatening players to terminate their licenses if they continued participating in GOM's leagues (why the 4th season never happened). This really pissed of Blizzard which is why they propose such harsh conditions for them (as they still haven't changed their view on this incident).
As for the NaDa case, what happened was KeSPA wanted to delete the records for NaDa which many netzians interpreted as doing the same as the purging of SaviOr's records (which erased all of his awards) when he was banned. Whether this was the case or not we'll never know but it sparked a huge uproar nonetheless and KeSPA restored the records with the ones that the TV stations keep and claimed it was a mistake on the server (the details are extremely sketchy on that reasoning and many don't trust KeSPA after their release of certain reasons where people know they're in the wrong one too many times). They do put pressure on the media that support KeSPA to push out articles that don't praise any of those old progamers (and in some cases view them as traitors to Brood War).
So yeah...if KeSPA is going to act like jerks then I will call them jerks. They push their players around like nobodies business which is a bit unfair to them.
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thanks for translating it
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All of that mouth flapping and not one good rebuttal to the accusation that they're using Blzzard's IP without permission. KeSpA are a bunch of lying worms.
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This doesn't look good for KeSPA... I've read their response and nothing they said was constructive. And its clearly shown they diverted some common logic in their response.
Like how paul sams said that fees can be adjusted after the entry qualification, which is not as big as 1.7billion in the bulk. So you can't just say, oh, x3, its bigger.
And who charges for 3 years at a time? Thats a long time, and quality can drastically change if not checked annually.
KeSPA also completely turned their head around for the nada-incident. They did not admit what thousands of people witness and said it didn't happen? How crazy is that?
The sum of the response is, e-sports grew for 10 years and everything should be their's. =.= and I can't believe they compared e-sports, to sports. lol I thought we were pass that already.
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"But, KeSPA and the Progame teams do not restrict the freedoms of the players themselves. Every player enters the Progame team only after plenty of negotiations with a contract that is unique to the player, and the player himself has complete freedom to choose where he wants to go. The Progame team provides the player with a moderate salary that follows from their contract and a stable environment where they can practice."
I call bullshit, "player himself has complete freedom to choose where he wants to go"
if it was only KeSPA and they had a specific/unique contract to that *one* player, then he _doesn't have a choice_ it's "don't play as a professional or play with us" (before GOMtv + SC2).
there isn't a "heres also another contract with different terms that you *can* accept"
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There was an interview with day9 a while back where he made a supposition that the requirement to pay for rights to Starcraft was all because Blizzard disagreed with KeSPA's operating principles. While this may be impossible to ever prove I have a feeling that this is part of the reason.
Also, from an interview with a Blizzard representitive http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=173542
* As for the rights of the players, we first, need the freedom. Existing players under KeSPA, due to their contract, they can't participate in other leagues. We believe that we can give the progamers the chance to freely choose. If progamers so wish, they should be allowed to participate in any other leagues. In the past, KeSPA did not give the progamers any freedom. Right now, if the progamers wish so, they can return to StarCraft 1 after playing SC 2. The progamers need to have the freedom to choose what they want to play.
We can also see what can happen when Blizzard does not participate as a partner in e-sports that makes use of Blizzard games. I've seen the match fixing scandal, and I've also seen how Lee Yun-Yeol (NaDa) had his record and his achievements completely nullified just because he chose to play a game he wanted to play. This is obviously not fair. So, that is why we are trying hard to protect our IP rights. We want to grow e-sports and progamers through right methods.
I think it's also important to point out that the people who stream themselves playing Starcraft do not earn money by doing so. It appears that Blizzard is ok with use of their IP for making youtube videos and generally any content that gives them free advertising, yet crack down hard on anyone who makes money, such as the person famously sued for making a levelling guide for WoW.
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thx milkis, as always
really really trying not to take sides heres, but im leaning toward kespa's now because it seems they were so close to finishing negociations (with the exception of the $$$ fees), then bliz just shut down and suddenly wants 100% instead of 50/50? Then a law suit? Kespa's questioning of whether they really want to see a successful end to negociations is valid IMO.
Bias aside, I wish they could just play nice
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It's quite silly to say that a contract isn't restricting the freedoms of players. They don't get to play unless they are under a contract. They can do that in the GSL.
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On December 04 2010 03:44 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +"But, KeSPA and the Progame teams do not restrict the freedoms of the players themselves. Every player enters the Progame team only after plenty of negotiations with a contract that is unique to the player, and the player himself has complete freedom to choose where he wants to go. The Progame team provides the player with a moderate salary that follows from their contract and a stable environment where they can practice." I call bullshit, "player himself has complete freedom to choose where he wants to go" if it was only KeSPA and they had a specific/unique contract to that *one* player, then he _doesn't have a choice_ it's "don't play as a professional or play with us" (before GOMtv + SC2). there isn't a "heres also another contract with different terms that you *can* accept"
Seriously in what part of the world you sign a contract and then you got to work only for that organization (Pro-team)?, around all the world people just get paid for one company and work for whatever company they want or if they will , they just can sit at home and do nothing.
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Thank you so much for the translation, Milkis. <3
I like KeSPA's calm and obliging tone in this statement.
I really hope this issue will be resolved soon!
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"developed" esports? more like profited from. i like how they put their image forward as some caring nanny that nursed professional starcraft into existence.
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On December 04 2010 03:03 Archduke wrote:
All of that mouth flapping and not one good rebuttal to the accusation that they're using Blzzard's IP without permission. KeSpA are a bunch of lying worms.
And I wonder why mods don't ban this guy for such an uneducated post in a serious thread.
I'm sure if I post "Blizzard are a bunch of lying worms" I will get permanent ban in 5 mins.
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Profits for an NPO go into expansion and growth.
In theory, in reality a lot of profits for large NPO's go into paying high salaries for CEO's etc. While most of their work force is volunteer and upaid. Red Cross is a perefect example of this where a large majority of donated money doesn't go to help anyone, it goes to pay salaries of people who never steep foot out of an office building...or to pay for commericals asking for more money.
Kespa started out largely for the players but it's well known over time kespa advocated less and less for players and more and more for kespa's control of players. A lot of kespa's constraints on players are absolutely ridiculous, the reason kespa is threatend by what blizzard is doing here is because they are about to lose control of the starcraft esport in korea to the group being put together being supported by blizzard, players, and gom.
If they want to broadcast and 'profit' from blizzards product they should pay blizzard to do it, it's no different then ABC, NBC, FOX, paying the NFL to broadcast their games to make commerical profit off them.
Crying were a NPO is a load, the top people in kespa make nice comfy salaries to just oversee starcraft and they are afraid they are going to lose their bank roll, or expose their corruption by agreeing to blizzards terms.
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If Blizzard is behind the new lame OSL group selection process then I hate them with all my heart.
If not then DON'T TOUCH MY STARCRAFT :<
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Blizzard: WE WANT INTERNET MONAY! Friend
Kespa: Were not your friend, Buddy
Blizzard: Were not your buddy, Guy
Kespa, Were not your guy, Friend.
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EPT
