EPTOn November 23 2010 19:04 TheAntZ wrote:
Wow they are just gonna plow through everyone
Wow they are just gonna plow through everyone
It makes me giggle how ridiculously wrong I was :D
oGsTOP and oGsInCa goes to Dreamhack - Page 10
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
It makes me giggle how ridiculously wrong I was :D | ||
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SlapMySalami
United States1060 Posts
On November 28 2010 14:23 jalstar wrote: He's talking about protosses, the player in your spoiler plays terran. I didn't think + Show Spoiler + Naama | ||
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Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
Nevertheless, it's unlucky that they had to face each other. Wanted to see Inca vs others, especially. As for the DreamHack players being on the level of the best players. Well, it is very difficult to argue that without head to head competition and matches. Either top koreans have to attend, or these ones have to go and participate in GSL. My personal feeling is that, they are still fairly behind. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17170 Posts
On November 29 2010 02:29 Xxavi wrote: As for the DreamHack players being on the level of the best players. Well, it is very difficult to argue that without head to head competition and matches. Either top koreans have to attend, or these ones have to go and participate in GSL. My personal feeling is that, they are still fairly behind. Are you sure about that? I don't like SC2 and usually just watch matches out of boredom when no BW is on but let me tell you this: Grand Final of Dreamhack between Mana and Naama has topped everything I've ever seen in SC2 (and I've seen everything there was from GSL for example). Game 3 and 4 had me on my toes, heart pounding, almost crying from the sheer awesomeness pouring at me from the screen... They are not behind, just Korea is too far for most of them to go there. | ||
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nttea
Sweden4353 Posts
On November 29 2010 05:38 Manit0u wrote: Are you sure about that? I don't like SC2 and usually just watch matches out of boredom when no BW is on but let me tell you this: Grand Final of Dreamhack between Mana and Naama has topped everything I've ever seen in SC2 (and I've seen everything there was from GSL for example). Game 3 and 4 had me on my toes, heart pounding, almost crying from the sheer awesomeness pouring at me from the screen... They are not behind, just Korea is too far for most of them to go there. from an entertainment point game 3 and 4 were definitely awesome. From a skill point i've seen far far better -.- | ||
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MusiK
United States302 Posts
Now Imagine IMNesTea there. =D | ||
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Xxavi
United States1248 Posts
On November 29 2010 05:38 Manit0u wrote: Are you sure about that? I don't like SC2 and usually just watch matches out of boredom when no BW is on but let me tell you this: Grand Final of Dreamhack between Mana and Naama has topped everything I've ever seen in SC2 (and I've seen everything there was from GSL for example). Game 3 and 4 had me on my toes, heart pounding, almost crying from the sheer awesomeness pouring at me from the screen... They are not behind, just Korea is too far for most of them to go there. See, they are behind in key moments. I watched Mana's games (isn't he the one that is P?), the protoss player's game very closely. What I realized from these matches, and not only his, but also some of the other matches is that, in GSL, 9/10 times they won't let protoss live until he gets a huge army. They will be harassed so much or they will be behind Zerg macro so much that, they won't have the same scary army. In this tournament, that guy had a big army time after time. In GSL, Terrans do harass and timing pushes to stop protoss early on. Zerg expand everywhere, and then start denying protoss expansion. I didn't see that in here. I can literally count 1-2 games where I saw Genius or Tester get big army. They were rushed or cheesed or all-inn'd literally every freaking round. Or had to survive timing pushes. The only one, in fact, that I can remember Tester with a big army is a game against Nada (1st game), and that's only because Nada's timing push failed, and later, his contain failed. They know the strength of protoss. In Dreamhack, it seems players know this, but have absolutely no clue how to deal with it. As for the matches, yes, they were indeed more entertaining than some GSL matches. But that's only because players let each other play long macro games. In GSL, it's all about timing pushes, which many in these tournament cannot execute as well, I felt. Entertaining to watch, but definitely lower level, IMO. | ||
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xiaoqinjng
United States3 Posts
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Blueblister
Sweden321 Posts
There is obviously no large skill gap between top players in America, Europe and Korea. We've had quite a few torunaments pitting korea against the rest of the world. The recent ones are DreamHack and GSL, others are: Razer King of the Beta, Altitude TL Invitational, 17173 Starcraft 2 World Cup and Global Gamers SC2 Invitational Qualifiers. Although the koreans did suprisingly bad in GGI, it should be noted that lag could be a contributing factor. There is admittedly a higher density of top players in Korea compared to Europe and the US in turn. Now Korea has established team practise houses while the western countries has not, better practise conditions will of course result in better play over the long run. | ||
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Matkap
Spain627 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 28 2010 23:55 TheAntZ wrote: It makes me giggle how ridiculously wrong I was :D Yep. SUP KOREA? | ||
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
I don't think it's time to say that until foreigners go and win GSL. What's the big deal if two Korean guys didn't place top in a non-Korean tournament? And the game hasn't even been out a year. I wouldn't get excited just yet... It's not like GSL winners and SC1 legends came over here and got smashed. | ||
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xiaoqinjgg
United States3 Posts
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Fighter
Korea (South)1531 Posts
Im not by anymeans a good player or anything, but in the dreamhack finals both players were at 3K minerals lots of times, dont see happening as much in GSL Actually I think that happens more than you'd think, it's just that a lot of GSL games haven't been going into the late game, which is when you start to stockpile minerals. At DreamHack though, as people have noted, a lot more games went into the late game. For an example of a GSL game where someone stockpiled minerals, just look at July's latest games against AlivefOu. I recall at one point he had 6k. He could've used some of those to throw down extra hatches so he could stockpile larva but he didn't, and despite having such vast resources he never got upgrades, though that could be due to lack of gas, as I can't recall how much gas he had. Still, once you hit 200/200 there's not much to spend your money. | ||
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jdr_
United States78 Posts
On December 01 2010 11:44 Fighter wrote: Actually I think that happens more than you'd think, it's just that a lot of GSL games haven't been going into the late game, which is when you start to stockpile minerals. At DreamHack though, as people have noted, a lot more games went into the late game. For an example of a GSL game where someone stockpiled minerals, just look at July's latest games against AlivefOu. I recall at one point he had 6k. He could've used some of those to throw down extra hatches so he could stockpile larva but he didn't, and despite having such vast resources he never got upgrades, though that could be due to lack of gas, as I can't recall how much gas he had. Still, once you hit 200/200 there's not much to spend your money. That's a pretty unfair example because like you said, July was already maxed, but on top of that, he was maxed for a very long time without having to replenish units due to the nature of the positioning dance that was going on in the middle. Situations like that are pretty rare in SC:BW just because of the unwieldy nature of 12max ctrl groups, but in SC2 players will stalemate for prolonged periods of time, plus July spent money on everything he could've possibly needed. He made upwards of 30 spinecrawlers, had enough macrohatches for essentially infinite larva, 4 bases, and broodlord tech. There's nothing you can criticize about julys play, it was flawless. On the otherhand, I have seen macro slips from other players both in the GSL, and in european tournaments, under circumstances where the player wasn't maxed, or could have benefited from spending the money. | ||
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TeMiL
Peru545 Posts
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TheBanana
Norway2183 Posts
On November 29 2010 16:02 Xxavi wrote: See, they are behind in key moments. I watched Mana's games (isn't he the one that is P?), the protoss player's game very closely. What I realized from these matches, and not only his, but also some of the other matches is that, in GSL, 9/10 times they won't let protoss live until he gets a huge army. They will be harassed so much or they will be behind Zerg macro so much that, they won't have the same scary army. In this tournament, that guy had a big army time after time. In GSL, Terrans do harass and timing pushes to stop protoss early on. Zerg expand everywhere, and then start denying protoss expansion. I didn't see that in here. I can literally count 1-2 games where I saw Genius or Tester get big army. They were rushed or cheesed or all-inn'd literally every freaking round. Or had to survive timing pushes. The only one, in fact, that I can remember Tester with a big army is a game against Nada (1st game), and that's only because Nada's timing push failed, and later, his contain failed. They know the strength of protoss. In Dreamhack, it seems players know this, but have absolutely no clue how to deal with it. As for the matches, yes, they were indeed more entertaining than some GSL matches. But that's only because players let each other play long macro games. In GSL, it's all about timing pushes, which many in these tournament cannot execute as well, I felt. Entertaining to watch, but definitely lower level, IMO. What I realized from watching all the GSL3 matches thus far and basically all the Dreamhack-matches is that the difference is not as much level as it is a difference of styles. I see you have a prejudice that says korean > foreigner and you see things from a perspective where that already is true. But if SC is anything like you describe in your "In GSL"-parapgraph it would be just about the most one-dimensional and boring RTS in the history of the world. Thank God it's not. If GSL was indeed a global competition and all the best players in the world competed it would definately not be 59 korean vs 5 foreigners. After smoothening out the odds a bit and also not give the koreans home field advantage every time we might even see a foreigner win it. Why not? There is no way of knowing without trying. SC2 is not SC1. There is no proven difference of level in SC2. There is only speculation. oGsTop beat Polt.Prime in a tvt in GSL1, Naama and Fenix both beat oGsTop in tvt. Jinro is a foreigner so logically speaking how would it be impossible to reach for instance RO8 for a foreigner even in this GSL? GSL3? Naama himself stated in an interview @ DH he would have had no chance vs Demuslim. Also he got through the group stage with the help of a coin flip. Naama and Fenix have both proven they can beat a korean GSL-player, and they are not unique by any means, there are lots lots more players in the foreigner bag. oGsTop also beat oGsInca who has both a ro8 and ro16 under his belt in GSL, neither of these are suddenly terrible player just because of 1 loss in GSL. | ||
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