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Apologies if there has been a similar thread recently, but I thought it's about time to discuss this again.
I've always been a big fan of the old school gamers, including Boxer, Nada, iloveoov, Nal_ra, and Reach.
More than anything, I've always thought that Nada has been the greatest player of all time. His 3 OSLs and 3 MSLs are testimony to his greatness.
But the skill level of Starcraft has increased dramatically since Nada's dominance.
Currently we see greatness in players like Bisu and Flash.
But currently, it is Jaedong that I have to admit is the greatest of all time. Sure he "only" has 2 OSLs and 1 MSL, but his consistency and his incredible ZvZ record is just ridiculous in this day and age.
For me, it is heart breaking to see Nada playing so poorly for the last 1-2 years. But my brain is telling me that Jaedong is the greatest of all time. According to TLPD, he is approaching a 70% win-loss record with over 200 wins. That's simply ridiculous, and no one even comes close to this.
Who does everyone think is the greatest of all time? I know it's hard to compare eras, but Jaedong is just an amazing player and I don't think we'll ever see the likes of him again.
In my opinion, the following players will be most likely mentioned as being "The greatest Starcraft player of all time" when history looks back at this amazing RTS game:
In no particular order:
1. Jaedong
2. Boxer
3. Nada
4. iloveoov
5. Flash
6. Bisu
7. Savior
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i swear, this was closed for a reason. it's hard to discuss this because of the constant evolution of the game from then until now.
jaedong is good, but he wouldn't be so good without the help of the stacking muta discovery, etc, all those things. plus, maps were different. maps are geared towards macro games now. imagine back then... everyone had one base, natural was quite far away. stacking mutas with minerals.
edit: who i think is best? boxer, of course. made the game into what it is today by popularizing it.
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You cannot compare old school players with Jaedong because the comparison isn't based on the same standards.
When Jaedong started to play, the old school players had already set a standard and all he did was break them. Players like Garimto, Boxer, Nal_ra, Nada bassically invented those standards.
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Oh sorry, I didn't see that topic. I did do a search before I created the topic. Mods feel free to close.
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oov. is the best. You simply can't stop an army of 500000 tanks rolling you over...
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Flash is not the greatest player of all times even though he has potential to be
If the future of earth was decided over a game of Starcraft then Jaedong should play for earth as he is the best player ever.
Nada has been the best player through time and if the future of earth was decided in a run of 10 starcraft games over 5 years then Nada should play for earth.
A similar story is viable for Savior, iloveoov and most of all Boxer. It comes down to what you consider being the greatest accomplishment.
Myself judge success through trophy's and thus I consider Nada being the one for a while more (give Jaedong another 6 mounts)
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oov should play for Earth, than no one would be able to stop our GODLY macro from rolling them over. Oov felt so powerful when he played. Much more than NaDa did.
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Anyways everyone who's been at teamliquid for some time (practically every moderator) has been over this 10 times and these threads always suck
edit: to above poster; you completely missed my point. Everyone measures what greatness is differently and to me it's how much stuff you won (hence i think it's Nada). So knowing what I regard most important you cannot argue that iloveoov is a better choice for me because iloveoov was more powerful in his prime...
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I don't think threads like these suck.
I think it's healthy to discuss who the greatest Starcraft player ever is. Up to the year 2008, I've always maintained that Nada is the greatest. But Jaedong is just being so consistent and now approaching a ridiculous 70% win-loss ratio with well over 200 wins. His ZvZ is just unheard of. It's even more powerful than iloveoov's TvZ in his prime, which is scary. Sure, iloveoov had a 27 win streak against Zerg opponents, which will probably never be matched or surpassed, but Jaedong's ZvZ is well over 80% win-loss now with nearly 100 games played. That's unheard of in this day and age.
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Skill:
Have you ever seen a fpvod of Bisu? Yes - Then you know the answer. No - Then the answer is Bisu.
Establishment:
Who reopened peoples eyes for an entire race, creating the foundation for progaming today? Boxer ofc.
Reign:
Once upon a time when the time stood still, when there was only one player in the top, a player that was way ahead of everyone. It was the era of the Maestro of Zerg. His name is Savior.
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On June 30 2009 19:51 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:
Skill:
Have you ever seen a fpvod of Bisu? Yes - Then you know the answer. No - Then the answer is Bisu.
Establishment:
Who reopened peoples eyes for an entire race, creating the foundation for progaming today? Boxer ofc.
Reign:
Once upon a time when the time stood still, when there was only one player in the top, a player that was way ahead of everyone. It was the era of the Maestro of Zerg. His name is Savior.
Sure, Bisu is incredibly skilled for sure. But I think Jaedong edges him here. There is a reason why his ZvZ is over 80% win-loss. ZvZ is arguably a match up that involves a large element of luck (perhaps the match up that has the largest element of luck), but Jaedong proves that it is possible to be completely dominant.
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Greatest: BoxeR.
Best/Most talent for the game: Jaedong/NaDa.
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On June 30 2009 19:43 Patriot.dlk wrote:
Anyways everyone who's been at teamliquid for some time (practically every moderator) has been over this 10 times and these threads always suck
edit: to above poster; you completely missed my point. Everyone measures what greatness is differently and to me it's how much stuff you won (hence i think it's Nada). So knowing what I regard most important you cannot argue that iloveoov is a better choice for me because iloveoov was more powerful in his prime...
Again, like with anything, it's always difficult to compare eras. But if I had to pick one player to label as "the greatest ever", I'd have to pick Jaedong.
The tennis world has recently had a big discussion at who the greatest ever is (since Federer won the French Open and completed a career Grand Slam). In my opnion, if I had to pick one player, I would pick Roger Federer. I know a lot of others would pick Rod Laver, and that is also a good choice. There isn't any right or wrong. It's just an opinion. And it makes for very interesting discussion, in my opinion.
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Man people, I can't believe that you are forgetting oov so easily... don't you remember his millions of tanks rolling enemies over? When did you ever see that again? Never that's right. I have never witnessed a display of power as great as oov through watching starcraft. Not to mention that Oov always OWNED Nada. Nada was is only considered the best because he was a better than the average for a long time... and he won the most. But oov crushed the whole opposition whne he played...
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On June 30 2009 19:53 ssj114 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 19:51 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:
Skill:
Have you ever seen a fpvod of Bisu? Yes - Then you know the answer. No - Then the answer is Bisu.
Establishment:
Who reopened peoples eyes for an entire race, creating the foundation for progaming today? Boxer ofc.
Reign:
Once upon a time when the time stood still, when there was only one player in the top, a player that was way ahead of everyone. It was the era of the Maestro of Zerg. His name is Savior. Sure, Bisu is incredibly skilled for sure. But I think Jaedong edges him here. There is a reason why his ZvZ is over 80% win-loss. ZvZ is arguably a match up that involves a large element of luck (perhaps the match up that has the largest element of luck), but Jaedong proves that it is possible to be completely dominant.
Yes Jaedong is a great contestant to be in my top 3 all time but there is something missing... he is this player who is incredibly good, able to kill off anyone in a boX and is known for practising a ton and is showing great results in live games as well. So what is missing then? Well he has won a lot of tournaments, helping his very own Hwaseung OZ team in leagues as well. But yet he has not marked himself in the history of starcraft in the way Savior, Bisu and Boxer has. Savior ruled the world of progaming for a very long time. Boxer is just boxer, we all know what he has done. Bisu stopped Saviors era, rewamped the PvZ play of today and has won leagues since then - still remains one of the best players of starcraft. That is why he trumps Jaedong IMO.
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On June 30 2009 20:01 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 19:53 ssj114 wrote:On June 30 2009 19:51 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:
Skill:
Have you ever seen a fpvod of Bisu? Yes - Then you know the answer. No - Then the answer is Bisu.
Establishment:
Who reopened peoples eyes for an entire race, creating the foundation for progaming today? Boxer ofc.
Reign:
Once upon a time when the time stood still, when there was only one player in the top, a player that was way ahead of everyone. It was the era of the Maestro of Zerg. His name is Savior. Sure, Bisu is incredibly skilled for sure. But I think Jaedong edges him here. There is a reason why his ZvZ is over 80% win-loss. ZvZ is arguably a match up that involves a large element of luck (perhaps the match up that has the largest element of luck), but Jaedong proves that it is possible to be completely dominant. Yes Jaedong is a great contestant to be in my top 3 all time but there is something missing... he is this player who is incredibly good, able to kill off anyone in a boX and is known for practising a ton and is showing great results in live games as well. So what is missing then? Well he has won a lot of tournaments, helping his very own Hwaseung OZ team in leagues as well. But yet he has not marked himself in the history of starcraft in the way Savior, Bisu and Boxer has. Savior ruled the world of progaming for a very long time. Boxer is just boxer, we all know what he has done. Bisu stopped Saviors era, rewamped the PvZ play of today and has won leagues since then - still remains one of the best players of starcraft. That is why he trumps Jaedong IMO.
again you are forgetting oov...
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On June 30 2009 19:59 verzisor wrote:
Man people, I can't believe that you are forgetting oov so easily... don't you remember his millions of tanks rolling enemies over? When did you ever see that again? Never that's right. I have never witnessed a display of power as great as oov through watching starcraft. Not to mention that Oov always OWNED Nada. Nada was is only considered the best because he was a better than the average for a long time... and he won the most. But oov crushed the whole opposition whne he played...
Sure, your opinion is that iloveoov is the greatest, and you give some interesting justification.
I completely agree with you that iloveoov was just incredible in his prime. I always supported him, except when he played against Nada. It was always a little painful every time he beat Nada, but I still appreciated his greatness.
I like my statistics. Roger Federer (tennis player) has three amazing statistics, in my opinion:
1. 20 consecutive Grand Slam Semi-finals (and counting...he's one win away from a 21st) - this record will never be matched or surpassed in my opinion
2. 237 consecutive weeks as world number 1 - again, this will never be beaten
3. 5 consecutive Wimbledon titles and 5 consecutive US Open titles - again, this will never be beaten.
Jaedong's amazing statistic is his career win-loss ratio of nearly 70% (with well over 200 wins) and over 80% win-loss in ZvZ (with nearly a total of 100 games played). And it seems like he is only getting stronger and stronger. It's just amazing stuff.
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On June 30 2009 20:01 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 19:53 ssj114 wrote:On June 30 2009 19:51 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:
Skill:
Have you ever seen a fpvod of Bisu? Yes - Then you know the answer. No - Then the answer is Bisu.
Establishment:
Who reopened peoples eyes for an entire race, creating the foundation for progaming today? Boxer ofc.
Reign:
Once upon a time when the time stood still, when there was only one player in the top, a player that was way ahead of everyone. It was the era of the Maestro of Zerg. His name is Savior. Sure, Bisu is incredibly skilled for sure. But I think Jaedong edges him here. There is a reason why his ZvZ is over 80% win-loss. ZvZ is arguably a match up that involves a large element of luck (perhaps the match up that has the largest element of luck), but Jaedong proves that it is possible to be completely dominant. Yes Jaedong is a great contestant to be in my top 3 all time but there is something missing... he is this player who is incredibly good, able to kill off anyone in a boX and is known for practising a ton and is showing great results in live games as well. So what is missing then? Well he has won a lot of tournaments, helping his very own Hwaseung OZ team in leagues as well. But yet he has not marked himself in the history of starcraft in the way Savior, Bisu and Boxer has. Savior ruled the world of progaming for a very long time. Boxer is just boxer, we all know what he has done. Bisu stopped Saviors era, rewamped the PvZ play of today and has won leagues since then - still remains one of the best players of starcraft. That is why he trumps Jaedong IMO.
Very interesting post there. I have to admit you are right to an extent, and have a very valid justification for your opinion.
Bisu still has a chance to show to me that he is the greatest ever. He basically needs to step up his career win-loss ratio (it's sitting pretty at around 64%, but no where near Jaedong's) and perhaps win a couple more Star leagues. Until then, Jaedong is the greatest for me.
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On June 30 2009 19:53 ssj114 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 19:51 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:
Skill:
Have you ever seen a fpvod of Bisu? Yes - Then you know the answer. No - Then the answer is Bisu.
Establishment:
Who reopened peoples eyes for an entire race, creating the foundation for progaming today? Boxer ofc.
Reign:
Once upon a time when the time stood still, when there was only one player in the top, a player that was way ahead of everyone. It was the era of the Maestro of Zerg. His name is Savior. Sure, Bisu is incredibly skilled for sure. But I think Jaedong edges him here. There is a reason why his ZvZ is over 80% win-loss. ZvZ is arguably a match up that involves a large element of luck (perhaps the match up that has the largest element of luck), but Jaedong proves that it is possible to be completely dominant.
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On June 30 2009 20:10 fearus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 19:53 ssj114 wrote:On June 30 2009 19:51 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:
Skill:
Have you ever seen a fpvod of Bisu? Yes - Then you know the answer. No - Then the answer is Bisu.
Establishment:
Who reopened peoples eyes for an entire race, creating the foundation for progaming today? Boxer ofc.
Reign:
Once upon a time when the time stood still, when there was only one player in the top, a player that was way ahead of everyone. It was the era of the Maestro of Zerg. His name is Savior. Sure, Bisu is incredibly skilled for sure. But I think Jaedong edges him here. There is a reason why his ZvZ is over 80% win-loss. ZvZ is arguably a match up that involves a large element of luck (perhaps the match up that has the largest element of luck), but Jaedong proves that it is possible to be completely dominant.
And Bisu's mirror matchup PvP is the best in the world as well, if we are comparing mirror matchups. And PvP is not the same as ZvZ. That's also a reason why I think Bisu is a greater player.
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Boxer is, was and will always be best.
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On June 30 2009 20:14 Zoler wrote:
Boxer is, was and will always be best.
At what?
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On June 30 2009 20:13 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 20:10 fearus wrote:On June 30 2009 19:53 ssj114 wrote:On June 30 2009 19:51 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:
Skill:
Have you ever seen a fpvod of Bisu? Yes - Then you know the answer. No - Then the answer is Bisu.
Establishment:
Who reopened peoples eyes for an entire race, creating the foundation for progaming today? Boxer ofc.
Reign:
Once upon a time when the time stood still, when there was only one player in the top, a player that was way ahead of everyone. It was the era of the Maestro of Zerg. His name is Savior. Sure, Bisu is incredibly skilled for sure. But I think Jaedong edges him here. There is a reason why his ZvZ is over 80% win-loss. ZvZ is arguably a match up that involves a large element of luck (perhaps the match up that has the largest element of luck), but Jaedong proves that it is possible to be completely dominant. And Bisu's mirror matchup PvP is the best in the world as well, if we are comparing mirror matchups. And PvP is not the same as ZvZ. That's also a reason why I think Bisu is a greater player.
Especially when you consider PvP is the most skilled based MU with very little luck/chance involved.
Then you consider the other Protosses - Stork, Jangbi all have great PvP.
Where as the other zergs all have medicore ZvZ and isnt in the same league as the top tier Protosses.
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United States11390 Posts
On June 30 2009 20:17 fearus wrote:
Especially when you consider PvP is the most skilled based MU with very little luck/chance involved.
This alone is hilarious in its own right.
However, it's even funnier coming from same person who baww'd about position imba when Violet beat Bisu.
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I am sad no one else mentions oov  (
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On June 30 2009 20:17 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:At what?
At being fucking awesome
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The 'greatest' is Boxer, the most skilled .. thats up for debate
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why does no one mention mantoss?
gogogo julyzerg
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Nvm, this is too repetitive. For Atrioc:
It's not hard, each page is 40 games, so it's to half of the eighth page, hold on let me check.
This is in order by the poll options.
At 300 games:
Boxer 175-125 58.33%
Yellow 180-120 60.00%
Nada 193-107 64.33% *It should be mentioned that he had a nice streak after this.
Iloveoov 192-108 64.00%
Jaedong 206-94 68.66%
Bisu 190-110 63.33%
Flash hasn't played 300 games yet. Currently at 184-89 67.40%
July 178-122 59.33%
Savior 179-121 59.66%
Reach 159-141 53.00%
Nal_rA 179-121 59.66%
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it's hard to compare players of different eras. i think this debate would only be fair if the question was 'who was the most dominant player during their respective reigns'
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Well Man Toss wasn't good enough... my opinion.
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One day the TC of one of these threads will realize how completely pointless this topic is without defining 'greatness.' I mean seriously, how do you expect a discussion on the subject to go anywhere if you don't give it a starting point? Nada's the greatest because he's got such a long record of being good. Boxer's the greatest because he's so influential to the progaming phenomenon. Oov is the greatest because his incredible dominance. Savior is the greatest at disappointing fans in 2009 (so far ;__; ) etc. The only intelligent response to most well-thought out posts in this thread is "that's true/you've got a point" or "your justification is factually wrong." There's no actual debate or true discussion until people agree on (or the TC dictates) a common standard of greatness, so we can say "no, Nada's even more disappointing than Savior this year, so he's the greatest." Otherwise there can be about a thousand completely valid, intelligent posts, all answering the incredibly vague question of "who's the greatest?" without a shred of interactive discussion occurring.
edit: smilies screwing up my parentheses
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On June 30 2009 20:10 fearus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 19:53 ssj114 wrote:On June 30 2009 19:51 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:
Skill:
Have you ever seen a fpvod of Bisu? Yes - Then you know the answer. No - Then the answer is Bisu.
Establishment:
Who reopened peoples eyes for an entire race, creating the foundation for progaming today? Boxer ofc.
Reign:
Once upon a time when the time stood still, when there was only one player in the top, a player that was way ahead of everyone. It was the era of the Maestro of Zerg. His name is Savior. Sure, Bisu is incredibly skilled for sure. But I think Jaedong edges him here. There is a reason why his ZvZ is over 80% win-loss. ZvZ is arguably a match up that involves a large element of luck (perhaps the match up that has the largest element of luck), but Jaedong proves that it is possible to be completely dominant.
Not luck, psychology.
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United States10328 Posts
how about the guy who just won a 2 hour match after being impossibly behind?
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which of these is this thread about?
Who is the most skilled sc player?
Who is the most skilled sc player for their time?
Who is the most Influential sc player?
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On June 30 2009 21:03 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Nvm, this is too repetitive. For Atrioc:
It's not hard, each page is 40 games, so it's to half of the eighth page, hold on let me check.
This is in order by the poll options.
At 300 games:
Boxer 175-125 58.33%
Yellow 180-120 60.00%
Nada 193-107 64.33% *It should be mentioned that he had a nice streak after this.
Iloveoov 192-108 64.00%
Jaedong 206-94 68.66%
Bisu 190-110 63.33%
Flash hasn't played 300 games yet. Currently at 184-89 67.40%
July 178-122 59.33%
Savior 179-121 59.66%
Reach 159-141 53.00%
Nal_rA 179-121 59.66%
All of the older players on this list have had their slumps, which is why their percentages are lower.
Jaedong, Bisu and Flash have yet to have their slumps which is why their percentages are so high.
A graph really needs to be made for this sort of thing, kinda like an apm chart.
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I would like to see an ELO chart over time.
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On June 30 2009 23:26 stroggos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 21:03 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Nvm, this is too repetitive. For Atrioc:
It's not hard, each page is 40 games, so it's to half of the eighth page, hold on let me check.
This is in order by the poll options.
At 300 games:
Boxer 175-125 58.33%
Yellow 180-120 60.00%
Nada 193-107 64.33% *It should be mentioned that he had a nice streak after this.
Iloveoov 192-108 64.00%
Jaedong 206-94 68.66%
Bisu 190-110 63.33%
Flash hasn't played 300 games yet. Currently at 184-89 67.40%
July 178-122 59.33%
Savior 179-121 59.66%
Reach 159-141 53.00%
Nal_rA 179-121 59.66% All of the older players on this list have had their slumps, which is why their percentages are lower. Jaedong, Bisu and Flash have yet to have their slumps which is why their percentages are so high. A graph really needs to be made for this sort of thing, kinda like an apm chart.
Bisu already had a slump, a horrible one.
Bisu will never be #1 for me since he always chokes in OSLs...
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On June 30 2009 21:03 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Nvm, this is too repetitive. For Atrioc:
It's not hard, each page is 40 games, so it's to half of the eighth page, hold on let me check.
This is in order by the poll options.
At 300 games:
Boxer 175-125 58.33%
Yellow 180-120 60.00%
Nada 193-107 64.33% *It should be mentioned that he had a nice streak after this.
Iloveoov 192-108 64.00%
Jaedong 206-94 68.66%
Bisu 190-110 63.33%
Flash hasn't played 300 games yet. Currently at 184-89 67.40%
July 178-122 59.33%
Savior 179-121 59.66%
Reach 159-141 53.00%
Nal_rA 179-121 59.66%
some interesting things can be taken from this list
JD, bisu and flash have had around the same amount of games as the rest but in a much shorter time, for instance jaedong has had over 300 games in about 3 years whereas NaDa has had the same amount in over 7 years... more games are being played by the newer players in less time, and most of those games aren't against other people on the list, but against wearker opponents, whereas nada, oov and savior dominated when most of the other people on the list were still considered top players
the fact that the skill level and game knowledge has raised is irrelevant as it has raised for everyone and not just the people at the very top, so one could argue that the older players on the list had way more challenging opponents given the information in the previous paragraph, and still maintained a similar win ratio to the newer top players... in my opinion this makes them better if not far better as players, and although this doesn't speak of their current ability to be at the top, one can only assume that guys like nada, oov and savior have all pretty much burned out by now, as they have many titles under they belt and there just isn't much left to accomplish that could drive them to play 50 games a day with intense passion like JD currently does
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On July 01 2009 00:00 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 21:03 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Nvm, this is too repetitive. For Atrioc:
It's not hard, each page is 40 games, so it's to half of the eighth page, hold on let me check.
This is in order by the poll options.
At 300 games:
Boxer 175-125 58.33%
Yellow 180-120 60.00%
Nada 193-107 64.33% *It should be mentioned that he had a nice streak after this.
Iloveoov 192-108 64.00%
Jaedong 206-94 68.66%
Bisu 190-110 63.33%
Flash hasn't played 300 games yet. Currently at 184-89 67.40%
July 178-122 59.33%
Savior 179-121 59.66%
Reach 159-141 53.00%
Nal_rA 179-121 59.66% some interesting things can be taken from this list JD, bisu and flash have had around the same amount of games as the rest but in a much shorter time, for instance jaedong has had over 300 games in about 3 years whereas NaDa has had the same amount in over 7 years... more games are being played by the newer players in less time, and most of those games aren't against other people on the list, but against wearker opponents, whereas nada, oov and savior dominated when most of the other people on the list were still considered top players the fact that the skill level and game knowledge has raised is irrelevant as it has raised for everyone and not just the people at the very top, so one could argue that the older players on the list had way more challenging opponents given the information in the previous paragraph, and still maintained a similar win ratio to the newer top players... in my opinion this makes them better if not far better as players, and although this doesn't speak of their current ability to be at the top, one can only assume that guys like nada, oov and savior have all pretty much burned out by now, as they have many titles under they belt and there just isn't much left to accomplish that could drive them to play 50 games a day with intense passion like JD currently does
Sabbath you're so cute, i want you!
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EPT
