Before I start writing, I warn you that I'm biased against Terrans, I feel that SC is not perfectly balanced, even though they are balanced in general. You might know me from threads such as "T is overpowered"
We look at the concept of bunker rushing. This is done in early game TvZ and usually initiated in the timing window where Z does not have zerglings yet (because of 12 hatch)
There are two major different levels of bunker rush. The less severe level is where T uses his scouting SCV to start building a bunker, and bring in each marine. The more intense/riskier level is where his pulls at least 7+ SCV and ensure the construction of bunker is successful, while bringing in each marine. Because the riskier level of Bunker Rush is more...risky and we know what happens when it fails, I'm going to talk about the bunker rush that is done with 1 or 2 SCV.
My question and topic is: Is Bunker Rush worth it? Even if it fails? My answer is Yes. This is why T is overpowered. We look at the reasons why:
The SCV starts building a bunker (100 Minerals) The Zerg realizes this and pulls 6+ drones from his main to attack the SCV building the bunker. Normally, when T sees that many drones coming, he stops building the bunker with that scv to save that scv (bunker is not canceled yet) he holds on till his marine comes and micros it enough to take out 1~2 drones (which is very likely) The Zerg is focusing to kill that 1 marine. By the time the drones do kill that marine, you can expect the casulty of at least 1 drone (or none). But, a 2nd marine accompanied by another SCV will be coming down, the 1st SCV finished building the bunker (because the drones were distracted with marine)
So Z has to try to pick off the 2nd marine before it gets into the bunker. If it fails to, the Zerg will have a hard time taking down the bunker. Even if it is successful and the bunker is empty, the drones have lost a lot of mining time, MUCH slower lair, and Z has to use up larvaes to rebuild drones, while the T can go on about its normal build order with the loss of 1~2 SCV + 2 marines.
Taking Down the Bunker: At this point, the zerglings are being made but Z player knows that 6 zerglings + 4 drones is not enough to take down a bunker that has the repair support of 2 SCV. If 6 lings + 4 drones DO take down that bunker, you can expect heavy losses for Z. Cost of 3+ drones = 150 + mining time while bunker = 100 + 2 marines = 200 minerals. The Z usually has to wait till more lings pop out, and more larvaes used up for lings means less drone production in early game (which kills Z economy)
Canceling the Bunker:This is the biggest point of my thread The T notices that Z will overwhelm the bunker so T just decides to cancel it after his 1st marine died. At this point, Z has already produced 6+ lings. Z lost mining time for 6+ drones. T has dealt Z psychological damage. Z is surprised and caught off his usual build order timing. Z has neglected drone production for early ling production. Z's lair will be slower and has suffered economical damage. The cost of canceling a bunker is 25 minerals. 25 + 50 mineral (1 marine) = 75 minerals. The T has lost a total of 75 minerals to deal this much damage to Z's economy and timing and mentality. I think its definately worth it, is it not?
Additional Note: I am fine with the existance of bunker. I just feel like T should not be allowed to build it so early in the game however. Maybe a requirement to bunker might be construction of Factory that might make it more fair. You might say, then T cannot protect expo without bunker?! Well, T really shouldn't take FE in the 1st place without a ground army that is strong enough to ensure its protection. Just like how P never takes an expo (unless its a gamble 14 nexus) unless he has a strong enough P ground army/cannon to protect it for the time being. Just like how T can have a much inferior army early game, but be safe from attacks just because it blocked the ramp with SCVs and marines (can you say cheap?)
Damn I expected a short OP with little to no analysis on bunker rushes, instead theres a long winded one, nice. Anyway personally I think bunker rushes are just like cannon rushes and are more to fuck with your opponent then a way to win the game. Of course one could cite Boxers triple bunker rush against Yellow, legendary stuff. But overall bunker rushes arent as viable anymore, alot of the time you see Terran proxy rax instead, opting to use more scvs and a double rax to take out the opponent. This also leaves you able to mobilize your army and not depend on the bunker to win the game for you.
About moving the bunker higher up in the tech tree thats just stupid. You are way to scared of bunkers or something. Just send your second overlord to your natural and you should be able to spot it before it goes up and rines arrive. Pull 2-3 drones and go kill the SCV. Its not that hard.
every race at some level of play has a hard time against their unfavored MU; the premise of your frustration is not exlusive to TvZ...i'm pretty sure if a zerg player only practiced 4pooling and fast scouting he would win a lot of ZvT games.
the only solution to effectively counter a bunker rush is to have a well timed BO, search/scout your opponent constantly, and it may come down to drone micro or cancelling a building to counter/pursure another build order. you might also want to try playing terran before calling it overpowered.
And you're leaving out the part where Terran has to go 8 rax and 10 supply which hurts Terran a lot. If you're good with zerg drone micro, it shouldn't be a problem, Zerg micro is way too good for bunker rush to be constantly effective.
Bunker rushes can be used effectively but it does not say that Terran is over-powered. TvZ is like the hardest mu in the game, how can you say that Terran are over-powered T_T.
You wrote this super long post explaining all situations of a bunker rush when you could have just made a normal QQ post that said "I hate bunker rushes, i often die to them and since i don't know how to deal with them they should move the bunkers higher up in the tech tree to allow worse players to have a chance."
Now to add to the discussion, to stop people from doing 4/5pools lets move zerglings up the tech tree or atleast make it so that you have to have atleast 9 population before being able to make zerglings. Who's with me?
On November 15 2008 01:31 F13 wrote: At this point, Z has already produced 6+ lings. Z lost mining time for 6+ drones. T has dealt Z psychological damage. Z is surprised and caught off his usual build order timing. Z has neglected drone production for early ling production. Z's lair will be slower and has suffered economical damage. The cost of canceling a bunker is 25 minerals. 25 + 50 mineral (1 marine) = 75 minerals. The T has lost a total of 75 minerals to deal this much damage to Z's economy and timing and mentality. I think its definately worth it, is it not?
One detail you didn't take into account is that T has lost investment time on 100 minerals early on. Although starting the bunker, and then cancelling it only loses 25 minerals, it also ties down 100 minerals that until later cannot be invested in something else, ie whatever T would have built with those minerals (rax, scv's, academy, depot, ...) will come later.
Your analysis is one situation that could happen. You state it like it's the likely outcome, when it's not. Often if Zerg defeats a Bunker rush cleanly, the win, just as Terran wins if they execute the rush clearly.
On November 15 2008 01:31 F13 wrote: The Zerg realizes this and pulls 6+ drones from his main to attack the SCV building the bunker.
It's not necessary to pull 6 drones off of mining to kill 1 scv. I find that 2 drones work just fine. If I get paranoid when an scv enters my natural and lingers there, I don't even wait for the bunker to start building. I immediately send 2 drones down there. This is especially important on maps where your main is a considerable distance away from your nat...the drones need to be able to arrive before the bunker can finish building. By sending 2 drones immediately, you stand a good chance of having your drones arrive just as he starts constructing the bunker, and that could be enough to dissuade him from bunker rushing.
On November 15 2008 01:42 SpiralArchitect wrote: About moving the bunker higher up in the tech tree thats just stupid. You are way to scared of bunkers or something. Just send your second overlord to your natural and you should be able to spot it before it goes up and rines arrive. Pull 2-3 drones and go kill the SCV. Its not that hard.
Great feedback. The only problem for this is that sometimes its not possible to scout the bunker construction till its almost done or done. I often find myself using the 2nd overlord to scout the opposite section of the map if my 1st ovie did not scout a Terran base near my base.
On November 15 2008 01:59 koreasilver wrote: If you pull SIX drones, there is no chance in hell that single rines will be able to even kill one drone if they did the "less severe" rush.
Well, if T can micro the SCV with the marine, there is a possibility that drone gets picked off. Maybe you just have superior micro than me but this is how I see it
On November 15 2008 02:13 Senx wrote: You wrote this super long post explaining all situations of a bunker rush when you could have just made a normal QQ post that said "I hate bunker rushes, i often die to them and since i don't know how to deal with them they should move the bunkers higher up in the tech tree to allow worse players to have a chance."
Now to add to the discussion, to stop people from doing 4/5pools lets move zerglings up the tech tree or atleast make it so that you have to have atleast 9 population before being able to make zerglings. Who's with me?
If I didn't know how to deal with them, how would I have known to pull out drones to pick off scv/ marine? Please not post crap like this and at least try to be insightful rather than sounding mocking if you want other people to take your post seriously. And to prove a point, I can assure you that ZvT is my best matchup while ZvP being my worst.
Too bad 4/5 pool will fail miserably if it is scouted 5 seconds before lings arrive to base. T just has to block ramp with scvs and wait for the 1st marine. And if Z scouts Bunker rush 5 seconds too late? Well thats too bad, Z will get punished severely for it. See my point? T always goes unpunished for something they should be punished for (Ex. T Overexpanding - > Z attacks T expansion - > T lifts CC and sends SCV to main, main entrance blocked, T saves expansion vs. Z overexpanding -> T attacks Z expansion -> Z cannot lift hatchery -> drones die much faster and easier than SCVs die because marine is ranged and fastest DPS -> Z loses expansion)
On November 15 2008 02:39 F13 wrote: Well, if T can micro the SCV with the marine, there is a possibility that drone gets picked off. Maybe you just have superior micro than me but this is how I see it
Doesn't this imply that this applies only to low-level play, since at pro-level, the drone micro will easily be good enough to take care of this?
On November 15 2008 01:31 F13 wrote: The Zerg realizes this and pulls 6+ drones from his main to attack the SCV building the bunker.
It's not necessary to pull 6 drones off of mining to kill 1 scv. I find that 2 drones work just fine. If I get paranoid when an scv enters my natural and lingers there, I don't even wait for the bunker to start building. I immediately send 2 drones down there. This is especially important on maps where your main is a considerable distance away from your nat...the drones need to be able to arrive before the bunker can finish building. By sending 2 drones immediately, you stand a good chance of having your drones arrive just as he starts constructing the bunker, and that could be enough to dissuade him from bunker rushing.
Good point but this really depends on how soon you realize it. Bringing only 2 drones when bunker is 95% done with marine coming soon is not going to help. I can understand being paranoid when SCV enters natural and lingers there but most of the time, they might be somewhere else, and even if they are lingering there, they might do that just to make you pull out drones to check for bunker rush even if there is none (to make you lose mining time)
On November 15 2008 02:39 F13 wrote: Well, if T can micro the SCV with the marine, there is a possibility that drone gets picked off. Maybe you just have superior micro than me but this is how I see it
Doesn't this imply that this applies only to low-level play, since at pro-level, the drone micro will easily be good enough to take care of this?
Yes and No. Micro is always two-sided. Just because someone micros his vulture to kill zerglings does not mean the Z player is not trying to micro Lings to kill that vulture. Even at Pro level, if T combines 1 marine with SCV, he can micro enough to take out a drone. I can see the 6 drones at the micro advantage, but always remember micro works both ways
On November 15 2008 02:13 Senx wrote: You wrote this super long post explaining all situations of a bunker rush when you could have just made a normal QQ post that said "I hate bunker rushes, i often die to them and since i don't know how to deal with them they should move the bunkers higher up in the tech tree to allow worse players to have a chance."
Now to add to the discussion, to stop people from doing 4/5pools lets move zerglings up the tech tree or atleast make it so that you have to have atleast 9 population before being able to make zerglings. Who's with me?
What are you talking about? Moving stuff up the tech tree? There is a reason 15min no rush became standard a long time ago. Damn noobs...
On November 15 2008 02:49 F13 wrote: Yes and No. Micro is always two-sided. Just because someone micros his vulture to kill zerglings does not mean the Z player is not trying to micro Lings to kill that vulture. Even at Pro level, if T combines 1 marine with SCV, he can micro enough to take out a drone. I can see the 6 drones at the micro advantage, but always remember micro works both ways
Not quite. There's a theoretical scenario that micro always approaches. Even if both players have near-perfect micro, things will still approach that scenario. In this case, that scenario is the drones passing the SCV, and stomping on the marine. In practice, the SCV can stop up the drones, but with good micro, it won't happen cuz you're trying to stop 6 drones with 1 SCV, ffs.
My analysis of the situation is that bunker rushes are non-risky way to put pressure on the zerg. You're right, they don't really cost all that much and they can be deadly. However, I think you're over evaluating the damage that they do because of how you deal with it.
You don't need to pull six drones to deal with a bunker rush. I normally take a couple and move them to my nat to attack the SCV. If he cancels then I just move the drones to the minerals because my hatchery just finished. If it gets finished then you pull 3-4 drones to deal with it Jaedong vs Flash style (I think it was them) and move them out to kill reinforcing marines. You let the bunker hit your hatchery with one rine inside of it until you have some zerglings. If more marines get inside you keep building up some zerglings, kill reinforcing units, and then take out the bunker. Alternatively, you can build a sunken out of it's range.
Bunker rushes are great to use on iccup because they're well worth the money in most low level games (D- to C probably). It really just depends on how well the zerg deals with it. Most of the time you end up shooting yourself in the foot by how you defend. It's pretty much the same thing with most types of cheese that aren't all in (I'd even throw 2 gate in here even though it isn't cheese).
On November 15 2008 01:42 SpiralArchitect wrote: About moving the bunker higher up in the tech tree thats just stupid. You are way to scared of bunkers or something. Just send your second overlord to your natural and you should be able to spot it before it goes up and rines arrive. Pull 2-3 drones and go kill the SCV. Its not that hard.
Great feedback. The only problem for this is that sometimes its not possible to scout the bunker construction till its almost done or done. I often find myself using the 2nd overlord to scout the opposite section of the map if my 1st ovie did not scout a Terran base near my base.
Ok to be blunt here, dont scout with your second ovie. Your going to lose it and your first overlord is already out there scouting, you want that ovie at your base (in ZvT). Even if you like to send taht second ovie to scout his base or something just send a drone out there to check it out, I always use at least one drone for scouting anyway, unless I find his base with ovie. Bunker rushes are really outdated honestly, the counter is rather simple and easy to use. Scout. Thats all you have to do because most of the time you can get a nine pool down or even a 12 pool before his bunker is building. You gotta play a mind game here and anticipate his moves. If his scv comes in and checks out your 12 hatch then disappears, your screwed. So keep an eye out for his scout and use that second ovie to scout your natural. Its more important to keep your 12 hatch then find his base at that point in time.
It honestly doesn't sound like you've played more than 5 games as Terran in your life. It's easy to watch Terran and see it as being strong, but the sheer amount of things you have to do mechanically makes it insanely hard to play.
First of all, you are completely wrong when you say Terran receives little to no build order damage. In order to bunker rush, you have to go 8 rax. If you don't, then the zerg gets lings out around the same time you get 1 rine. When you open 8 rax you have to choose later on between an expo and a second rax. The problem I always had with the failed fake bunk is that if I got the expo, I wouldn't be able to afford a second rax until like 8 minutes into the game. If I got the second rax, I would probably never be able to afford an expo due to constant scv and 2x rine pump from 1 base. Not only this but the bunker itself holds up 100 minerals the entire time you are doing this, meaning you probably won't be able to afford neither an extra rax nor an expo until it gets cancelled.
Plus, did you see that video posted? You say you have trouble saving your base with 6 drones pulled off. In the vid 6 drones not only stopped the bunker but they chased down and killed like 8 marines and went all the way to T's base and proceeded to win. I have played many games where I get a bunker set up completely uncontested with 3 rines inside and 3-4 scv's repairing, and still I am destroyed in record time by the zerg's first six lings with their first six drones.
It's harder to stop a bunker rush than it is to do one. In that respect SC is imbalanced.
But in SC it's all over the place. And in the case of T you basically need D+ skills to beat D players. And C- skills to beat D+ players. So in ZvT I don't see what's there to complain.
On November 15 2008 03:10 NatsuTerran wrote: In the vid 6 drones not only stopped the bunker but they chased down and killed like 8 marines and went all the way to T's base and proceeded to win.
Actually, it was 7 drones, but yeah. Kwanro is a badass. Although am I the only one that agrees with the OP when he says that bunkers should be factory-level tech? Seriously, that would be awesome. Terran FE would be ruined, terran defense against lurkers would be ruined, and of course so would bunker rush, and that's just against zerg. Terran would also no longer be able to deal with early game goons, would have a hard time dealing with zealot harass, and couldn't really FE in any of their matchups. We should petition Blizzard to do just that.
On November 15 2008 03:13 BlackStar wrote: It's harder to stop a bunker rush than it is to do one. In that respect SC is imbalanced.
But in SC it's all over the place. And in the case of T you basically need D+ skills to beat D players. And C- skills to beat D+ players. So in ZvT I don't see what's there to complain.
Its also much harder to defend a six pool than it is to A move your lings to a unsuspecting base. That is the risk and reward part of cheese, if you succeed you have won the game with minimal effort, if you fail you will certainly lose the game to a good opponent. Therefore the game is actually balanced since each race has a comparable strategy which is equally hard to deal with for each race.
you are not considering the game beyond just the rush. if a zerg successfully defends, the terran will have a much later expansion and play more passively, usually without a scouting scv left alive. his lack of scouting and your six lings can force him to delay moving out his expo cc or a bunker. it's not uncommon to have even your leftover lings from the bunker rush chase down straggling marines and kill a few scvs in his main. remember, he's on 1rax and nonspeedlings are dangerous at this point.
as for faking a bunker rush, there's really not much a zerg can do about it. again, the lings you make in response can be used to kill the scout faster and pressure him. i think it's even, and if terran is ahead it's marginal. come midgame and lategame, zerg has similar tactics like the threat of stop lurkers, fake muta or lurker tech, and backstabs that delay and force the terran to play more conservatively with extra bunkers/turrets/delayed expoes/etc.
a finished bunker with only a marine or two in it is not any real threat as long as you can cut off reinforcements. you may also be engaging the bunker too early - delay until your hatch is in the yellow or red so you can get as many lings as possible before attacking all at once. sunkens outrange bunkers too, if you think it's necessary. here are the two biggest tips for how to prevent bunker rushes in the first place: 1. always place your second overlord at your natural and 2. scout on 12 or even 9 if you are paranoid. terrans generally scout earlier on ladders too, so it's not terrible economically. having an extra mining drone is not worth the risk of getting caught off guard.
Additional Note: I am fine with the existance of bunker. I just feel like T should not be allowed to build it so early in the game however. Maybe a requirement to bunker might be construction of Factory that might make it more fair. You might say, then T cannot protect expo without bunker?! Well, T really shouldn't take FE in the 1st place without a ground army that is strong enough to ensure its protection. Just like how P never takes an expo (unless its a gamble 14 nexus) unless he has a strong enough P ground army/cannon to protect it for the time being. Just like how T can have a much inferior army early game, but be safe from attacks just because it blocked the ramp with SCVs and marines (can you say cheap?)
Sir, you are a troll or the biggest idiot the world has ever seen.
You say P never takes expo unless they have cannons? And T never takes expo unless they have bunkers? Hello?
And T can have an inferior army? What about P is forced to either block ramp with zealots AND probes (like marines AND scvs) if they dont expand with fast cannons like terran with fast bunker.
On November 15 2008 03:13 BlackStar wrote: It's harder to stop a bunker rush than it is to do one. In that respect SC is imbalanced.
But in SC it's all over the place. And in the case of T you basically need D+ skills to beat D players. And C- skills to beat D+ players. So in ZvT I don't see what's there to complain.
Its also much harder to defend a six pool than it is to A move your lings to a unsuspecting base. That is the risk and reward part of cheese, if you succeed you have won the game with minimal effort, if you fail you will certainly lose the game to a good opponent. Therefore the game is actually balanced since each race has a comparable strategy which is equally hard to deal with for each race.
I don't think six pooling is the same thing though. A six pool is basically an all in while a terran can do a bunker rush while only delaying themselves a bit. It's because zerg has to trade off drones to build zerglings while terran can keep pumping scvs. If you look at the kwanro game linked a few posts up you can see how many scvs Really had. Protoss has 2 gate which is the same sort of deal. Zerg can't do cheese and come back from it like the other races, it's almost always an all-in.
I play zerg so I may be a bit biased .
Edit: Terrans might feel similarly about muta harass now that I'm trying to empathize. It's sort of similar in that you need to build defense/waste resources to protect yourself from something you can't stop from coming. Except it's a lot worse for zerg because it's at the start of the game and you don't have as many options. Terran could sunken break before mutas or whatever.
On November 15 2008 01:31 F13 wrote: ....................... So Z has to try to pick off the 2nd marine before it gets into the bunker. If it fails to, the Zerg will have a hard time taking down the bunker. Even if it is successful and the bunker is empty, the drones have lost a lot of mining time, MUCH slower lair, and Z has to use up larvaes to rebuild drones, while the T can go on about its normal build order with the loss of 1~2 SCV + 2 marines.
....................... +100 bunker + cost of double harrasment (2 scv has to travel too) ....................... T cant go on his "normal" BO used 100 to bunker, lost first 2 marines
Canceling the Bunker:This is the biggest point of my thread The T notices that Z will overwhelm the bunker so T just decides to cancel it after his 1st marine died. At this point, Z has already produced 6+ lings. Z lost mining time for 6+ drones. T has dealt Z psychological damage. Z is surprised and caught off his usual build order timing. Z has neglected drone production for early ling production. Z's lair will be slower and has suffered economical damage. The cost of canceling a bunker is 25 minerals. 25 + 50 mineral (1 marine) = 75 minerals. The T has lost a total of 75 minerals to deal this much damage to Z's economy and timing and mentality. I think its definately worth it, is it not?
lol at psychological damage T fucked up his BO T lost time and worker too Z is surprised? Z 5 pools next game.
You're a misguided soul. A lower level zerg player hating on Terran. You should be hating on the real evil race. It's the one that's not been named yet in this post.
I recommend you to play some games with Terran and bunlerrush every single game. You will see what annoys you most and simply have to do it when you play Z again. Seeing things from "the other side" can help you alot!
Lol I forgot to even reply to OP's suggestion about factory-level bunkers. Bunkers would be like a once every 50 game occurence if that were implemented. I mean, you have TANKS at that point...cmon. Also, I'd love to see a Terran try to play TvP on Longinus without bunkers. LMFAO. I bet you anything if this actually happened every pro Terran would drop off the circuit as long as flat maps like longinus are involved. Either 2 gate proxy or hard goons would make it auto gg.
On November 15 2008 01:44 Scorch wrote: If even a failed bunker rush was an advantage, Terrans would do it every game.
They do 4 out of 5 games to me, be it fake or not. I cant just let if go up, always have to pull 5-6 drones or those extra 2-3 drones to stop bunker been completed (if he goes natural suddenly but usually extra SCV comes and tries to hide it, so overlord needs to be there to spot it). Its nowdays standard.
On November 15 2008 01:44 Scorch wrote: If even a failed bunker rush was an advantage, Terrans would do it every game.
Yes, Boxer said that bunker rush is always a win-win situation for T and that was what all the Terran players were doing 3-4 years ago in TvZ until Z players master their drone micro and muta micro. Bunker rush is not auto advatange anymore.
y'all are saying that T is stronger....... I disagree. As far as rushing, sure, they're pretty good but not overpowering. Plus, T has basically no ground defence for bases xept bunkers and bunkers are still ineffective compared to walling, and THAT only works well for early game and slows the min income.
OP I think you are only taking 1 zerg build into example and trying to state that a bunker rush makes terran imbalanced because it fairs well against a 12hatch. What your failing to realize is that every race has counter builds, and depending on your opening, your opponent could do a build directly catored to it. For example, you can relate a bunker rush countering a 12hatch like how 9pool speed lings can counter 1rax expo. You can either break their ramp, or mass em up and storm his expansion before he has firebats.
One thing I read that you posted was this paragraph:
"Too bad 4/5 pool will fail miserably if it is scouted 5 seconds before lings arrive to base. T just has to block ramp with scvs and wait for the 1st marine. And if Z scouts Bunker rush 5 seconds too late? Well thats too bad, Z will get punished severely for it. See my point? T always goes unpunished for something they should be punished for (Ex. T Overexpanding - > Z attacks T expansion - > T lifts CC and sends SCV to main, main entrance blocked, T saves expansion vs. Z overexpanding -> T attacks Z expansion -> Z cannot lift hatchery -> drones die much faster and easier than SCVs die because marine is ranged and fastest DPS -> Z loses expansion) "
First off, if a zerg 5 - 6 - 7 pools or w/e, you will need a fair amount of scvs on your ramp to stop him from getting in. The chances of scouting it usually are 1 in 3 as most maps are 4 players. So it's rather easy to mis-scout the 5-6-7 pool, and not have the adequate amount of workers on your ramp to delay it. Second, if you pull 6-7 scvs from mining to defend a 5-6-7 pool, you are obviously going to be just as far behind economically as he will be. It's not like you can magically put 2 or 3 scvs on the ramp, and his 6 lings will fail. If you do not seriously move 6-7 of them, odds are he is gonna rape them all to shit. Combine that with rally point zerglings, and you can easily lose the game. If you do manage to get 1 marine out, you still need 5-6 scvs on your ramp to stop him from coming up. So again, your economy is really poor during that time. Typically you are running off of 1 barracks, and because your scvs are on your ramp, your command center is going to be greatly delayed, (if your expanding) or your 2nd rax / acad will be much later.
Now, the 2nd part of that statement was that terran can easily lift off his command center, and go unpunished if zerg breaks his natural. Personally, unless you caught him while his units were somewhere else, breaking his natural is not him going unpunished. If you beat his army, and force him to lift his natural CC, then he is being punished...heavily. It's a macro war, and if you killed whatever army he had at his natural, and forced him to lift his command center, then you are winning the macro war. The minute you kill his army, and he lifts, the game is shifted into your control. You still have an army, he has to rebuild. You can safely take another gas main, because you have map control. You can basically abuse his small army, and macro hard. So quite frankly, I don't even understand where you thought up that idea, because it's wrong.
In conclusion, I do find bunker rushing to be effective, but with todays level of play, it's almost game deciding if you fail and fall behind in macro / build timing etc. I can bunker rush, and depending on how easily he defended it, my whole build is now delayed, while his is less effected (usually 3 hatch muta which is gas based anyway). So someone with really great muta micro will hit my main before im ready to handle it properly. (possibly range upgrade is not finished, or turrets are late etc.)
Ok to those of you who actually replied with detail, I'm actually going to spend my time and reply back because you weren't like idiots who accused me of "playing Terran less than 5 times"
First of all, I understand that Zerg also is capable of cheesing. For example, 4/5 pool. However, let me remind you that 4/5 pool is an all-in strategy. Even if it is scouted late, it only takes a few seconds to block ramp with SCVs. On the other hand, Bunker rush is NOT an all-in strategy (1~2 scvs) If it is scouted late, basically you need a lot of zerglings to take down a repairing bunker. Also, you will have a lot of losses in early game. I understand that going 8 rax is not beneficial for T econ as well. However, you should understand that 8 rax does not hurt your econ as much as 9 pool does because of this rush.
That brings me to a point. You guys said there was a counter to Bunker rush and that is 9pool. Well, believe me or not, Zerg is a macro race. If you go 9 pool and T or P plays it safe, it is very hard for Zerg can compete in terms of economy in mid/late game. Most T or P players tend to FE nowadays and 9 pool can be blocked easily by T if he knows what he is doing. Because the Zerg's only unit production building is Hatchery, its optimal to try to increase your production building early game so you can make drones earlier for better economy. Furthermore, Zerg economy works MUCH different than T or P's. Terran or Protoss each have a separate building for solely for worker production. Z has to split larvaes for both drones and fighting units. This is why 12 hatch is incredibly needed in the advanced level of expanding in SC nowadays because superior micro today can block early rushes easier than long ago.
You see? Zerg goes 9 pool and T goes 8 rax. Who is at more econ disadvantage? Zerg. Zerg fails 5 pool and T fails bunker rush. Who is at more econ disadvantage? Zerg. I'm not talking about winning or losing games with bunker rush. I'm talking about the amount of presssure and advantage that you get from doing it.
For more support on my point, look at the Zerg champion Jaedong's recent ZvT verses Frozean upmagic, and go.go. These medicore Terrans all chose to Bunker rush Jaedong. If you watch all those games, you can see the econ advantage they received from bunker rushing. (JD had to cancel 12 hatch in 1 game) I think 1 or 2 games, the Terran player lost anyway even with advantage because JD is overwhelmingly good but he couldn't win them all because some of those T players were decent enough to utilize on bunker rush's econ advantage. (JD vs Frozean)
Furthermore, people should stop blaming the maps for Z losses in TvZ. Its just that T has much more advantage than Zerg in TvZ (For ex. 1 dropship has the potential to totally rape 1 Zerg expo, 1 Overlord with zerg units cannot rape 1 Terran expo. Terran can lift CC and save it from destruction, while Z cannot save Hatchery by simply lifting it off. You place a few marines and medic behind the mineral line and they become untouchable with micro. To defend a T natural mid game, you need 2 bunkers, few tanks, and turrets. The cost of defending Z natural? couple of lurkers, 3~4 sunks (525~700 minerals), lings.
On November 15 2008 06:59 F13 wrote: Ok to those of you who actually replied with detail, I'm actually going to spend my time and reply back because you weren't like idiots who accused me of "playing Terran less than 5 times"
First of all, I understand that Zerg also is capable of cheesing. For example, 4/5 pool. However, let me remind you that 4/5 pool is an all-in strategy. Even if it is scouted late, it only takes a few seconds to block ramp with SCVs. On the other hand, Bunker rush is NOT an all-in strategy (1~2 scvs) If it is scouted late, basically you need a lot of zerglings to take down a repairing bunker. Also, you will have a lot of losses in early game. I understand that going 8 rax is not beneficial for T econ as well. However, you should understand that 8 rax does not hurt your econ as much as 9 pool does because of this rush.
That brings me to a point. You guys said there was a counter to Bunker rush and that is 9pool. Well, believe me or not, Zerg is a macro race. If you go 9 pool and T or P plays it safe, it is very hard for Zerg can compete in terms of economy in mid/late game. Most T or P players tend to FE nowadays and 9 pool can be blocked easily by T if he knows what he is doing. Because the Zerg's only unit production building is Hatchery, its optimal to try to increase your production building early game so you can make drones earlier for better economy. Furthermore, Zerg economy works MUCH different than T or P's. Terran or Protoss each have a separate building for solely for worker production. Z has to split larvaes for both drones and fighting units. This is why 12 hatch is incredibly needed in the advanced level of expanding in SC nowadays because superior micro today can block early rushes easier than long ago.
You see? Zerg goes 9 pool and T goes 8 rax. Who is at more econ disadvantage? Zerg. Zerg fails 5 pool and T fails bunker rush. Who is at more econ disadvantage? Zerg. I'm not talking about winning or losing games with bunker rush. I'm talking about the amount of presssure and advantage that you get from doing it.
For more support on my point, look at the Zerg champion Jaedong's recent ZvT verses Frozean upmagic, and go.go. These medicore Terrans all chose to Bunker rush Jaedong. If you watch all those games, you can see the econ advantage they received from bunker rushing. (JD had to cancel 12 hatch in 1 game) I think 1 or 2 games, the Terran player lost anyway even with advantage because JD is overwhelmingly good but he couldn't win them all because some of those T players were decent enough to utilize on bunker rush's econ advantage. (JD vs Frozean)
Furthermore, people should stop blaming the maps for Z losses in TvZ. Its just that T has much more advantage than Zerg in TvZ (For ex. 1 dropship has the potential to totally rape 1 Zerg expo, 1 Overlord with zerg units cannot rape 1 Terran expo. Terran can lift CC and save it from destruction, while Z cannot save Hatchery by simply lifting it off. You place a few marines and medic behind the mineral line and they become untouchable with micro. To defend a T natural mid game, you need 2 bunkers, few tanks, and turrets. The cost of defending Z natural? couple of lurkers, 3~4 sunks (525~700 minerals), lings.
In all honosty, I just don't think you know what 9pool is even capable of. Its not a disadvantage build. You are seriously comparing 8rax all-in with a doomed economy, to a standard 9pool opening? You 9pool, make 6 lings and expand as you rally them to his choke. Your expo is hardly delayed, and you have 6 lings. If he is Going FE, and builds it at his natural, he is gonna have to bunker up ASAP, or risk cancelling it. 9Pool is no way a disadvantagous build.
second, you compare 1 dropship to 1 overlord, which is just wrong. Why would you compare 2 different units that require 2 different techs? Overlords are double as supply, so naturally you have alot of them. Terran dropship is a tech choice, usually made AFTER vessels. Furthermore, 2 lurkers in an overlord dropped behind a mineral line can be just as dangerous as 7marines and 1 medic or w/e. Also, 90% of zergs that know how to play will have dropship defence at their natural and usually at their expos as well. You cannot drop 7marines 1 medic and expect to beat 2 lurkers and a sunken.
Personally, I find that you are using your own lower level play as the standard to base balance. Just because a terran is capable of doing all of this to you, and you cannot see the equality, doesn't mean its not there. You are basing balance off of your own results, which are of course flawed.
Also 1 more thing that I just have to mention. You just keep saying that zerg will lose alot of units trying to stop a bunker rush, and yet you have not once said to build a sunken colony. Sunkens OUTRANGE bunkers. Why would you seriously throw 6 drones and 6 lings at a bunker being repaired, when you can make a sunken just out of shooting range, target the scv, then kill the bunker without losing all of your drones. It just seems like you think the only way to stop his bunkering is to throw all your units at it blindly. Also, if he bunkers you, whats wrong with going 2 hatch muta? since he is obviously a bit behind because he is focusing on killing your natural. 2 hatch muta comes very early, and what are the odds that he has turrets up and marine range? There are many ways to take advantage of the situation. Throwing all your shit at him blindly, is not 1 of them
On November 15 2008 06:59 F13 wrote: Ok to those of you who actually replied with detail, I'm actually going to spend my time and reply back because you weren't like idiots who accused me of "playing Terran less than 5 times"
First of all, I understand that Zerg also is capable of cheesing. For example, 4/5 pool. However, let me remind you that 4/5 pool is an all-in strategy. Even if it is scouted late, it only takes a few seconds to block ramp with SCVs. On the other hand, Bunker rush is NOT an all-in strategy (1~2 scvs) If it is scouted late, basically you need a lot of zerglings to take down a repairing bunker. Also, you will have a lot of losses in early game. I understand that going 8 rax is not beneficial for T econ as well. However, you should understand that 8 rax does not hurt your econ as much as 9 pool does because of this rush.
That brings me to a point. You guys said there was a counter to Bunker rush and that is 9pool. Well, believe me or not, Zerg is a macro race. If you go 9 pool and T or P plays it safe, it is very hard for Zerg can compete in terms of economy in mid/late game. Most T or P players tend to FE nowadays and 9 pool can be blocked easily by T if he knows what he is doing. Because the Zerg's only unit production building is Hatchery, its optimal to try to increase your production building early game so you can make drones earlier for better economy. Furthermore, Zerg economy works MUCH different than T or P's. Terran or Protoss each have a separate building for solely for worker production. Z has to split larvaes for both drones and fighting units. This is why 12 hatch is incredibly needed in the advanced level of expanding in SC nowadays because superior micro today can block early rushes easier than long ago.
You see? Zerg goes 9 pool and T goes 8 rax. Who is at more econ disadvantage? Zerg. Zerg fails 5 pool and T fails bunker rush. Who is at more econ disadvantage? Zerg. I'm not talking about winning or losing games with bunker rush. I'm talking about the amount of presssure and advantage that you get from doing it.
For more support on my point, look at the Zerg champion Jaedong's recent ZvT verses Frozean upmagic, and go.go. These medicore Terrans all chose to Bunker rush Jaedong. If you watch all those games, you can see the econ advantage they received from bunker rushing. (JD had to cancel 12 hatch in 1 game) I think 1 or 2 games, the Terran player lost anyway even with advantage because JD is overwhelmingly good but he couldn't win them all because some of those T players were decent enough to utilize on bunker rush's econ advantage. (JD vs Frozean)
Furthermore, people should stop blaming the maps for Z losses in TvZ. Its just that T has much more advantage than Zerg in TvZ (For ex. 1 dropship has the potential to totally rape 1 Zerg expo, 1 Overlord with zerg units cannot rape 1 Terran expo. Terran can lift CC and save it from destruction, while Z cannot save Hatchery by simply lifting it off. You place a few marines and medic behind the mineral line and they become untouchable with micro. To defend a T natural mid game, you need 2 bunkers, few tanks, and turrets. The cost of defending Z natural? couple of lurkers, 3~4 sunks (525~700 minerals), lings.
In all honosty, I just don't think you know what 9pool is even capable of. Its not a disadvantage build. You are seriously comparing 8rax all-in with a doomed economy, to a standard 9pool opening? You 9pool, make 6 lings and expand as you rally them to his choke. Your expo is hardly delayed, and you have 6 lings. If he is Going FE, and builds it at his natural, he is gonna have to bunker up ASAP, or risk cancelling it. 9Pool is no way a disadvantagous build.
second, you compare 1 dropship to 1 overlord, which is just wrong. Why would you compare 2 different units that require 2 different techs? Overlords are double as supply, so naturally you have alot of them. Terran dropship is a tech choice, usually made AFTER vessels. Furthermore, 2 lurkers in an overlord dropped behind a mineral line can be just as dangerous as 7marines and 1 medic or w/e. Also, 90% of zergs that know how to play will have dropship defence at their natural and usually at their expos as well. You cannot drop 7marines 1 medic and expect to beat 2 lurkers and a sunken.
Personally, I find that you are using your own lower level play as the standard to base balance. Just because a terran is capable of doing all of this to you, and you cannot see the equality, doesn't mean its not there. You are basing balance off of your own results, which are of course flawed.
Also 1 more thing that I just have to mention. You just keep saying that zerg will lose alot of units trying to stop a bunker rush, and yet you have not once said to build a sunken colony. Sunkens OUTRANGE bunkers. Why would you seriously throw 6 drones and 6 lings at a bunker being repaired, when you can make a sunken just out of shooting range, target the scv, then kill the bunker without losing all of your drones. It just seems like you think the only way to stop his bunkering is to throw all your units at it blindly. Also, if he bunkers you, whats wrong with going 2 hatch muta? since he is obviously a bit behind because he is focusing on killing your natural. 2 hatch muta comes very early, and what are the odds that he has turrets up and marine range? There are many ways to take advantage of the situation. Throwing all your shit at him blindly, is not 1 of them
The reason why i made fun of your post is beacuse you've yet again proven you don't actually know wtf you are talking about. Just read exigens post and you'll see why.
defending against bunker rush is easy as long as you pull enough drones fast enough before he completes the bunker or kill the rines and block them from getting in the bunker
On November 15 2008 06:59 F13 wrote: That brings me to a point. You guys said there was a counter to Bunker rush and that is 9pool. Well, believe me or not, Zerg is a macro race. If you go 9 pool and T or P plays it safe, it is very hard for Zerg can compete in terms of economy in mid/late game. Most T or P players tend to FE nowadays and 9 pool can be blocked easily by T if he knows what he is doing. Because the Zerg's only unit production building is Hatchery, its optimal to try to increase your production building early game so you can make drones earlier for better economy. Furthermore, Zerg economy works MUCH different than T or P's. Terran or Protoss each have a separate building for solely for worker production. Z has to split larvaes for both drones and fighting units. This is why 12 hatch is incredibly needed in the advanced level of expanding in SC nowadays because superior micro today can block early rushes easier than long ago.
Uh, what?
If that's the case, why is 9pool speed used so commonly at pro-level (e.g. 9pool speed into 4hatch hydra) against Protoss? Denying scout + early map control more than overcomes the short-term macro disadvantage, especially because you can quickly grab two expos off the control.
As in aside, can someone tell me how viable 12-pool is in ZvT? Someone told me that it was the safe, newbie opening that can resist bunker rushes, but doesn't sacrifice as much econ as 9-pool.
When z 9pools, terran usually has 1 or 2 marines made by the time the lings get there. If he's getting an earlier rax he may have more, but if he made the earlier rax he'll probably be sending those marines to zerg, in which case zerg can kill the marines and terran has to use pure scv and maybe 1 marine depending on a bunch of things. Basically though, no matter what, terran has to pull atleast 3 scvs to be completely safe, and possibly can lose scvs and marines at the same time, on top of losing scouting. If he was planning on doing an all-in bunk rush, he probably loses the game out-right, and can be in a disadvantage state if he was bunk rushing too, and even if he wasn't bunk rushing and perfectly blocks your lings, he's losing scvs and timing. One micro mistake on his part could get lings in his main which just give terran a horrible headache and can end the game.
Bunk rushing is basically has a high probability of giving terran an advantage is zerg 12hatches, but then 12hatch itself is basically a macro-cheese. Bunk rush alone doesn't even really counter this, unless terran brings 6+ scvs, and even then zerg can come out alive with 2bases, map control, and good-enough mining. Terran can constantly produce scvs sure, but zerg's drones will be mining at 100% efficiency with his drones until he gets over 16 (depending on the map), whereas the advantage of each additional scv for terran lessens significantly as every new scv is made. Bunk rushing can reduce drone count, but zerg can likely still come out fairly economically strong since he has 2bases. 7 drones total is enough to fully support constant production of lings/drones/ovys for 2hatcheries, and zerg probably has more drones than that after a bunk rush. The presence of additional zerg military units is not inherently an advantage for terran anyway. Zerg has so many options after the bunk rush that the advantages terran seemingly get from bunk rushing a 12hatch are not as clear-cut out as you say. I'm not talking about if terran does really serious damage to zerg, that's an odd case since most zergs can prevent bunk rushes from ending the game or disabling them entirely.
On November 15 2008 03:13 BlackStar wrote: It's harder to stop a bunker rush than it is to do one. In that respect SC is imbalanced.
But in SC it's all over the place. And in the case of T you basically need D+ skills to beat D players. And C- skills to beat D+ players. So in ZvT I don't see what's there to complain.
Its also much harder to defend a six pool than it is to A move your lings to a unsuspecting base. That is the risk and reward part of cheese, if you succeed you have won the game with minimal effort, if you fail you will certainly lose the game to a good opponent. Therefore the game is actually balanced since each race has a comparable strategy which is equally hard to deal with for each race.
I don't think six pooling is the same thing though. A six pool is basically an all in while a terran can do a bunker rush while only delaying themselves a bit. It's because zerg has to trade off drones to build zerglings while terran can keep pumping scvs. If you look at the kwanro game linked a few posts up you can see how many scvs Really had. Protoss has 2 gate which is the same sort of deal. Zerg can't do cheese and come back from it like the other races, it's almost always an all-in.
I play zerg so I may be a bit biased .
Edit: Terrans might feel similarly about muta harass now that I'm trying to empathize. It's sort of similar in that you need to build defense/waste resources to protect yourself from something you can't stop from coming. Except it's a lot worse for zerg because it's at the start of the game and you don't have as many options. Terran could sunken break before mutas or whatever.
Well each race feels a economic hit in order to cheese. A cannon rush can be preceded by cutting probes as your forge arrives, not to mention 1 pylon and 1 cannon is 250 minerals, plus the missed mining time of the probe and your attention. If he nine pools and you fail the cannon rush then you are certainly dead, hell just cancel his natural and run past your cannons or simply kill them with lings.
Proxy gates too leave your open to economic disasters. I am always inclined to cut probes to make 3 on my first pylon and the second pylon comes up in time for the fourth to begin. Its always a gamble with any kind of all in build. When Zerg goes six pool the objective is purely do to enough damage to your opponent to set him more behind than you are. Look at July vs Best, five pool game but he comes out of it with a decent economy, a hatchery at his nat and a good amount of lings. Because Best was so far behind him after the initial rush that theres was nothing he could do.
How would you play bloodbath if you couldn't make a bunker until factory. Wtf?
PS- I dont 12 hatch FE as much anymore for 2 reasons, 1. Most terrans do 1/2 Rax FE and 2. some will try and bunker rush. overpool handles these situations well.
An unsuccesful bunkerrush into CC has severe problems dealing with 2 hatch muta. T shouldn't have range, stim, turrets and enough marines to deal with good muta micro if T fails to kill enough drones with the rush and follows it up with an expo.
You must remember that because muta-micro has improved so much lately, T really can't afford to skimp on marines. 8 Rax into bunkerrush into expansion will leave the T with low marine numbers. Z should take advantage of that.
Okay there has already been quite a few alternatives and ways to handle a bunker rush, mainly: a) micro your drones well b) use a different BO c) scout it properly d) pull more drones e) make a sunken I just want to elaborate a little more on e). What I have noticed,(as a terran player when i try a bunk rush) some players will instantly pull a drone and bring it to their nat when they first see an SCV. (as in not like when the bunker is already halfway done, bring your 2nd ovie outside your nat to scout this SCV like spiral said). Start chasing the SCV with it, if it starts to make a bunker use that drone what was chasing it to start a creep colony right away(and sunken as soon as it finishes), you might have to wait a few seconds if the hatch hasn't finished building for its creep though. start maynarding drones to your expo like you would usually do and because the sunken outranges the bunker it should take care of it. If he is a little more risky and brings more scvs for an allin then use the drones you sent to your nat to mine to protect your sunk further. if he hasn't backed down yet make a few lings when your pool finishes. Seriously though, 1 sunk only costs 175$ in total and this way you will bearly lose any mining time unless he does an allin bunker rush. but even if he did it doesn't matter if u are a little behind because when if it fails then u have probably won. so lets say he just does a regular bunker rush, you lose 175$, he loses 100 for bunker, 50 for scv, and any extra money he might have spent on an early 2nd rax. you are usually down at most 25$ and you have secured your FE, his expo is going to be a good minute late or so, so you are therefore ahead. 25$ lost is better than delayed terran FE.
EDIT: And happy birthday Chill, same day as me in Canada too o_O. coincidence i guess.
There is no way a Terran can pick off drones with single rines with one scv. Drones are faster than rines, and so it is rather easy to surround single rines with 4 drones and kill them quickly. I always 12 hatch in ZvT, and I always produce at least four lings after my pool is done, so at least the way I play, producing the initial lings doesn't effect my build at all. Assuming I was keeping an eye at the scouting scv and saw the bunker while it was building, I only really end with a short mining time loss for 4-5 drones.
a bunker rush off of a 10rax or 11rax that fails to do significant damage is WAY HUGE BAD for terran.
zergs response is 2 hat -> gas - > lair then speedlings, 8 or so speed lings into 2 hat muta/ling into 3rd gas 3 hat muta/ling/lurker into 5 hat hive.
In terms of base security the terran is normally pretty safe after an eco friendly bunker rush but the timming for his builds will be off and mutalisks will be powerfull longer while zerg can macro longer.
I use luxurys overpool -> 3 hat lair every game zvt because its the 89 rax or 10/10 rax that can ruin your day t.t
If you float your first ovie out and send your scout at 12, you've already got a 2/3 chance of finding him. You don't have to bring drones at all unless you actually see the marines/SCVs coming (check for a rax in his main; if it's there, sit outside and wait). (if you're cross positions... bad luck? You can just scout at 9 or something though >_> )
On November 15 2008 06:59 F13 wrote: Ok to those of you who actually replied with detail, I'm actually going to spend my time and reply back because you weren't like idiots who accused me of "playing Terran less than 5 times"
First of all, I understand that Zerg also is capable of cheesing. For example, 4/5 pool. However, let me remind you that 4/5 pool is an all-in strategy. Even if it is scouted late, it only takes a few seconds to block ramp with SCVs. On the other hand, Bunker rush is NOT an all-in strategy (1~2 scvs) If it is scouted late, basically you need a lot of zerglings to take down a repairing bunker. Also, you will have a lot of losses in early game. I understand that going 8 rax is not beneficial for T econ as well. However, you should understand that 8 rax does not hurt your econ as much as 9 pool does because of this rush.
That brings me to a point. You guys said there was a counter to Bunker rush and that is 9pool. Well, believe me or not, Zerg is a macro race. If you go 9 pool and T or P plays it safe, it is very hard for Zerg can compete in terms of economy in mid/late game. Most T or P players tend to FE nowadays and 9 pool can be blocked easily by T if he knows what he is doing. Because the Zerg's only unit production building is Hatchery, its optimal to try to increase your production building early game so you can make drones earlier for better economy. Furthermore, Zerg economy works MUCH different than T or P's. Terran or Protoss each have a separate building for solely for worker production. Z has to split larvaes for both drones and fighting units. This is why 12 hatch is incredibly needed in the advanced level of expanding in SC nowadays because superior micro today can block early rushes easier than long ago.
You see? Zerg goes 9 pool and T goes 8 rax. Who is at more econ disadvantage? Zerg. Zerg fails 5 pool and T fails bunker rush. Who is at more econ disadvantage? Zerg. I'm not talking about winning or losing games with bunker rush. I'm talking about the amount of presssure and advantage that you get from doing it.
For more support on my point, look at the Zerg champion Jaedong's recent ZvT verses Frozean upmagic, and go.go. These medicore Terrans all chose to Bunker rush Jaedong. If you watch all those games, you can see the econ advantage they received from bunker rushing. (JD had to cancel 12 hatch in 1 game) I think 1 or 2 games, the Terran player lost anyway even with advantage because JD is overwhelmingly good but he couldn't win them all because some of those T players were decent enough to utilize on bunker rush's econ advantage. (JD vs Frozean)
Furthermore, people should stop blaming the maps for Z losses in TvZ. Its just that T has much more advantage than Zerg in TvZ (For ex. 1 dropship has the potential to totally rape 1 Zerg expo, 1 Overlord with zerg units cannot rape 1 Terran expo. Terran can lift CC and save it from destruction, while Z cannot save Hatchery by simply lifting it off. You place a few marines and medic behind the mineral line and they become untouchable with micro. To defend a T natural mid game, you need 2 bunkers, few tanks, and turrets. The cost of defending Z natural? couple of lurkers, 3~4 sunks (525~700 minerals), lings.
This is ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with stating a wrong opinion, but doing so with this kind of arrogance while showing an alarming lack of knowledge isn't an attractive combination.
Your argument is almost word for word the one used 4 years ago after the Ever OSL semis by people who believed Boxer had just 'made TvZ imbalanced'. It was a reasonable line of thinking back then right after the shock of the 3-0, but fortunately we know a lot more about bunker rushes and how to defend against them now. You sound like Hong Jin Ho whining about how 'it's very hard for Zerg to win against Terran if they pool first'.
Not scouting a bunker rush is dreadful play.
All your descriptions of how bunker rush usually plays out are horribly off. You don't take 6+ drones to chase off the scv building the bunker then lose drones to one marine.
Terran's loss when his bunker rush fails isn't in the amount of minerals lost (as you seem to think), but in the delaying of his expansion. Expanding anyway is now a risky move for him as his tech will be delayed and his marine count lowered and he has no scouting SCV left. 2 hatch muta suddenly becomes a much bigger threat.
Your last paragraph there's the most ludicrous attempt to prove imbalance I've ever seen, just random (not to mention wrong) facts thrown together. There are good points to argue that ZvT is hard, the most important of which is probably that one mistake is usually enough to lose you the game, but the balance of this matchup is a complex issue that shouldn't be reduced to things like bunker rushes.
F13, the way you describe the game is incredibly shortsighted and shallow, it's just painfully obvious just from your opening post to the hilarious comparison of dropships and overlords. it seems that there is simply no way to convince you that you have no idea what you are talking about when you 1. have no idea what you are talking about 2. ignore the points of people much better than you 2. are most likely a troll (smurf account of a recently temp-banned user)
in case you are actually serious: do you think everyone here is narrow-minded and just stupid? you are not discovering some fundamental truth in broodwar that has eluded thousands of players for years. yes, there is a build lottery involved in this game, yes zvt can be incredibly frustrating, but suck it up and learn how to respond to these things instead of justifying your losses with this crap.
EPT
What about P is forced to either block ramp with zealots AND probes (like marines AND scvs) if they dont expand with fast cannons like terran with fast bunker.
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