EPT[Q] Is Bunker Rush worth it? - Page 2
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gm.tOSS
Germany898 Posts
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Durak
Canada3684 Posts
You don't need to pull six drones to deal with a bunker rush. I normally take a couple and move them to my nat to attack the SCV. If he cancels then I just move the drones to the minerals because my hatchery just finished. If it gets finished then you pull 3-4 drones to deal with it Jaedong vs Flash style (I think it was them) and move them out to kill reinforcing marines. You let the bunker hit your hatchery with one rine inside of it until you have some zerglings. If more marines get inside you keep building up some zerglings, kill reinforcing units, and then take out the bunker. Alternatively, you can build a sunken out of it's range. Bunker rushes are great to use on iccup because they're well worth the money in most low level games (D- to C probably). It really just depends on how well the zerg deals with it. Most of the time you end up shooting yourself in the foot by how you defend. It's pretty much the same thing with most types of cheese that aren't all in (I'd even throw 2 gate in here even though it isn't cheese). | ||
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SpiralArchitect
United States2116 Posts
On November 15 2008 02:39 F13 wrote: Great feedback. The only problem for this is that sometimes its not possible to scout the bunker construction till its almost done or done. I often find myself using the 2nd overlord to scout the opposite section of the map if my 1st ovie did not scout a Terran base near my base. Ok to be blunt here, dont scout with your second ovie. Your going to lose it and your first overlord is already out there scouting, you want that ovie at your base (in ZvT). Even if you like to send taht second ovie to scout his base or something just send a drone out there to check it out, I always use at least one drone for scouting anyway, unless I find his base with ovie. Bunker rushes are really outdated honestly, the counter is rather simple and easy to use. Scout. Thats all you have to do because most of the time you can get a nine pool down or even a 12 pool before his bunker is building. You gotta play a mind game here and anticipate his moves. If his scv comes in and checks out your 12 hatch then disappears, your screwed. So keep an eye out for his scout and use that second ovie to scout your natural. Its more important to keep your 12 hatch then find his base at that point in time. | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On November 15 2008 02:07 IntoTheWow wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9388_Kwanro_vs_Sea.Really/vod I've seen this. Kwanro is a god. Range+Speed upgraded drones?!?! | ||
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NatsuTerran
United States364 Posts
First of all, you are completely wrong when you say Terran receives little to no build order damage. In order to bunker rush, you have to go 8 rax. If you don't, then the zerg gets lings out around the same time you get 1 rine. When you open 8 rax you have to choose later on between an expo and a second rax. The problem I always had with the failed fake bunk is that if I got the expo, I wouldn't be able to afford a second rax until like 8 minutes into the game. If I got the second rax, I would probably never be able to afford an expo due to constant scv and 2x rine pump from 1 base. Not only this but the bunker itself holds up 100 minerals the entire time you are doing this, meaning you probably won't be able to afford neither an extra rax nor an expo until it gets cancelled. Plus, did you see that video posted? You say you have trouble saving your base with 6 drones pulled off. In the vid 6 drones not only stopped the bunker but they chased down and killed like 8 marines and went all the way to T's base and proceeded to win. I have played many games where I get a bunker set up completely uncontested with 3 rines inside and 3-4 scv's repairing, and still I am destroyed in record time by the zerg's first six lings with their first six drones. | ||
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
But in SC it's all over the place. And in the case of T you basically need D+ skills to beat D players. And C- skills to beat D+ players. So in ZvT I don't see what's there to complain. | ||
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CDRdude
United States5625 Posts
On November 15 2008 03:10 NatsuTerran wrote: In the vid 6 drones not only stopped the bunker but they chased down and killed like 8 marines and went all the way to T's base and proceeded to win. Actually, it was 7 drones, but yeah. Kwanro is a badass. Although am I the only one that agrees with the OP when he says that bunkers should be factory-level tech? Seriously, that would be awesome. Terran FE would be ruined, terran defense against lurkers would be ruined, and of course so would bunker rush, and that's just against zerg. Terran would also no longer be able to deal with early game goons, would have a hard time dealing with zealot harass, and couldn't really FE in any of their matchups. We should petition Blizzard to do just that. | ||
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SpiralArchitect
United States2116 Posts
On November 15 2008 03:13 BlackStar wrote: It's harder to stop a bunker rush than it is to do one. In that respect SC is imbalanced. But in SC it's all over the place. And in the case of T you basically need D+ skills to beat D players. And C- skills to beat D+ players. So in ZvT I don't see what's there to complain. Its also much harder to defend a six pool than it is to A move your lings to a unsuspecting base. That is the risk and reward part of cheese, if you succeed you have won the game with minimal effort, if you fail you will certainly lose the game to a good opponent. Therefore the game is actually balanced since each race has a comparable strategy which is equally hard to deal with for each race. | ||
intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
as for faking a bunker rush, there's really not much a zerg can do about it. again, the lings you make in response can be used to kill the scout faster and pressure him. i think it's even, and if terran is ahead it's marginal. come midgame and lategame, zerg has similar tactics like the threat of stop lurkers, fake muta or lurker tech, and backstabs that delay and force the terran to play more conservatively with extra bunkers/turrets/delayed expoes/etc. a finished bunker with only a marine or two in it is not any real threat as long as you can cut off reinforcements. you may also be engaging the bunker too early - delay until your hatch is in the yellow or red so you can get as many lings as possible before attacking all at once. sunkens outrange bunkers too, if you think it's necessary. here are the two biggest tips for how to prevent bunker rushes in the first place: 1. always place your second overlord at your natural and 2. scout on 12 or even 9 if you are paranoid. terrans generally scout earlier on ladders too, so it's not terrible economically. having an extra mining drone is not worth the risk of getting caught off guard. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
Additional Note: I am fine with the existance of bunker. I just feel like T should not be allowed to build it so early in the game however. Maybe a requirement to bunker might be construction of Factory that might make it more fair. You might say, then T cannot protect expo without bunker?! Well, T really shouldn't take FE in the 1st place without a ground army that is strong enough to ensure its protection. Just like how P never takes an expo (unless its a gamble 14 nexus) unless he has a strong enough P ground army/cannon to protect it for the time being. Just like how T can have a much inferior army early game, but be safe from attacks just because it blocked the ramp with SCVs and marines (can you say cheap?) Sir, you are a troll or the biggest idiot the world has ever seen. You say P never takes expo unless they have cannons? And T never takes expo unless they have bunkers? Hello? And T can have an inferior army?  What about P is forced to either block ramp with zealots AND probes (like marines AND scvs) if they dont expand with fast cannons like terran with fast bunker. | ||
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Durak
Canada3684 Posts
On November 15 2008 03:38 SpiralArchitect wrote: Its also much harder to defend a six pool than it is to A move your lings to a unsuspecting base. That is the risk and reward part of cheese, if you succeed you have won the game with minimal effort, if you fail you will certainly lose the game to a good opponent. Therefore the game is actually balanced since each race has a comparable strategy which is equally hard to deal with for each race. I don't think six pooling is the same thing though. A six pool is basically an all in while a terran can do a bunker rush while only delaying themselves a bit. It's because zerg has to trade off drones to build zerglings while terran can keep pumping scvs. If you look at the kwanro game linked a few posts up you can see how many scvs Really had. Protoss has 2 gate which is the same sort of deal. Zerg can't do cheese and come back from it like the other races, it's almost always an all-in. I play zerg so I may be a bit biased  .Edit: Terrans might feel similarly about muta harass now that I'm trying to empathize. It's sort of similar in that you need to build defense/waste resources to protect yourself from something you can't stop from coming. Except it's a lot worse for zerg because it's at the start of the game and you don't have as many options. Terran could sunken break before mutas or whatever. | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On November 15 2008 01:31 F13 wrote: ....................... So Z has to try to pick off the 2nd marine before it gets into the bunker. If it fails to, the Zerg will have a hard time taking down the bunker. Even if it is successful and the bunker is empty, the drones have lost a lot of mining time, MUCH slower lair, and Z has to use up larvaes to rebuild drones, while the T can go on about its normal build order with the loss of 1~2 SCV + 2 marines. ....................... +100 bunker + cost of double harrasment (2 scv has to travel too) ....................... T cant go on his "normal" BO used 100 to bunker, lost first 2 marines Canceling the Bunker: This is the biggest point of my thread The T notices that Z will overwhelm the bunker so T just decides to cancel it after his 1st marine died. At this point, Z has already produced 6+ lings. Z lost mining time for 6+ drones. T has dealt Z psychological damage. Z is surprised and caught off his usual build order timing. Z has neglected drone production for early ling production. Z's lair will be slower and has suffered economical damage. The cost of canceling a bunker is 25 minerals. 25 + 50 mineral (1 marine) = 75 minerals. The T has lost a total of 75 minerals to deal this much damage to Z's economy and timing and mentality. I think its definately worth it, is it not? lol at psychological damage T fucked up his BO T lost time and worker too Z is surprised? Z 5 pools next game. | ||
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ahole-surprise
United States813 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7884 Posts
I used to do this build a lot, it's quite efficient. | ||
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Sewi
Germany1697 Posts
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NatsuTerran
United States364 Posts
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
On November 15 2008 01:44 Scorch wrote: If even a failed bunker rush was an advantage, Terrans would do it every game. They do 4 out of 5 games to me, be it fake or not. I cant just let if go up, always have to pull 5-6 drones or those extra 2-3 drones to stop bunker been completed (if he goes natural suddenly but usually extra SCV comes and tries to hide it, so overlord needs to be there to spot it). Its nowdays standard. | ||
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hixhix
1156 Posts
On November 15 2008 01:44 Scorch wrote: If even a failed bunker rush was an advantage, Terrans would do it every game. Yes, Boxer said that bunker rush is always a win-win situation for T and that was what all the Terran players were doing 3-4 years ago in TvZ until Z players master their drone micro and muta micro. Bunker rush is not auto advatange anymore. | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
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bubbabro
United States41 Posts
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