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2008 US Presidential Election - Page 77

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Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
September 28 2008 00:51 GMT
#1521
You can't wait when someone is making defamatory comments. Maybe in a competitive debate but in a debate for the masses, you need to point out their mischief immediately.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10574 Posts
September 28 2008 02:15 GMT
#1522
imo there were a lot of points where McCain looked a lot stronger

examples..

when talking about cutting wasteful spending, Obama couldn't hide from the fact that he has asked for some $900 million dollars in pork for his state. Obama countered saying he suspended all his requests for ear marks for his state. McCain then responded for that that his conversion against ear marks didn't start until he started running for President.

Obama still taking the widely unpopular position that a presidential leader should meet with tyrannical regimes without preconditions. Obama tried to convince people the position was a logical one by saying many of McCain's advisers, such as Henry Kissinger support Obama's stance. Then soon after the debate Henry Kissinger came out and said he doesn't believe that at all and only secretaries in the President's cabinet should meet with dictators, not the President himself.

When talking about firing the SEC chairman, and that Eisenhower wrote 2 letters for the invasion of normandy, one congratulating the soldiers on their victory, and another as his resignation letter. Obama should have flipped that around on McCain who supported the Iraq war, believed we knew where the WMDs were and that we would be treated as liberators. Then Obama should have asked where McCain's letter of resignation was. That would have been G effing G right there.
HeavenS
Profile Joined August 2004
Colombia2259 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-28 02:26:49
September 28 2008 02:25 GMT
#1523
omg holy shit my I.Q actually went down after watching this video....

I think everyone should see Sarah Palin's interview by Katie Couric....



I wouldn't let her near the presidency if my cock were on the line....well maybe i would, but still this lady is retarded. I don't think even she understands what she's saying.
Im cooler than the other side of the pillow.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-28 02:54:32
September 28 2008 02:39 GMT
#1524
On September 28 2008 11:15 BlackJack wrote:
imo there were a lot of points where McCain looked a lot stronger

examples..

when talking about cutting wasteful spending, Obama couldn't hide from the fact that he has asked for some $900 million dollars in pork for his state. Obama countered saying he suspended all his requests for ear marks for his state. McCain then responded for that that his conversion against ear marks didn't start until he started running for President.

Obama still taking the widely unpopular position that a presidential leader should meet with tyrannical regimes without preconditions. Obama tried to convince people the position was a logical one by saying many of McCain's advisers, such as Henry Kissinger support Obama's stance. Then soon after the debate Henry Kissinger came out and said he doesn't believe that at all and only secretaries in the President's cabinet should meet with dictators, not the President himself.

When talking about firing the SEC chairman, and that Eisenhower wrote 2 letters for the invasion of normandy, one congratulating the soldiers on their victory, and another as his resignation letter. Obama should have flipped that around on McCain who supported the Iraq war, believed we knew where the WMDs were and that we would be treated as liberators. Then Obama should have asked where McCain's letter of resignation was. That would have been G effing G right there.

Obama actually should've clarified what some of his earmarks were about. In McCain's view they're the devil in all circumstances but I don't think most people would be very critical when it's for noble causes.

The Kissinger thing is interesting, because they're both mistaken in their own way, although publicly Obama is the one who suffers more. Kissinger doesn't think the president should meet with "hostile" foreign leaders, but for a very thoughtful reason that McCain doesn't share/understand.

McCain's stance on it is that the president is the highest level of office and thus we should not begin by immediately having serious talks with these leaders. It should be worked up to that point. Kissinger starkly disagrees with this and DOES think we need to immediately engage them in the most serious, highest level discussions. He believes that presidential discussions are not at that level, and that the Sec. of State is the one who needs to hammer out important details before the president can have a ceremonial talk.

Both candidates are wrong.

McCain denied the claim: "Dr. Kissinger did not say that he would approve a face-to-face meeting" with Ahmadinejad. "He did say there could be secretary and lower-level meetings."


KISSINGER: Well, I am in favor of negotiating with Iran. And one utility of negotiation is to put before Iran our vision of a Middle East, of a stable Middle East, and our notion on nuclear proliferation at a high enough level so that they have to study it. And, therefore, I actually have preferred doing it at the secretary of state level so that we -- we know we're dealing with authentic...

(CROSSTALK)

SESNO: Put at a very high level right out of the box?

KISSINGER: Initially, yes. And I always believed that the best way to begin a negotiation is to tell the other side exactly what you have in mind and what you are -- what the outcome is that you're trying to achieve so that they have something that they can react to.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10574 Posts
September 28 2008 03:04 GMT
#1525
McCain doesn't agree with it because he believes the President of the United States meeting with another head of state legitimizes their regime
Servolisk
Profile Blog Joined February 2003
United States5241 Posts
September 28 2008 03:33 GMT
#1526
On September 28 2008 12:04 BlackJack wrote:
McCain doesn't agree with it because he believes the President of the United States meeting with another head of state legitimizes their regime


And this makes him look stronger? I on the other hand think it is one of the clearest examples of what a total, complete dumb fuck McCain is. There is tremendous diplomatic capacity with Iran with quite a lot to gain. The stance of McCain and Bush has turned Iran from a potential ally into an enemy (and at the worst possible time for the US, who is occupying Iran's neighbors). In addition to turning them into a enemy, they have actually made Iran more powerful.

Another failure of astounding proportions, and yet McCain, in his tremulous, dumb voice speaks about the dangers of sitting at a table and talking. We lose nothing by talking to them. Anyone who believes that negotiating with Iran in some significant way legitimizes their positions of hostility with Israel, or whatever else, is a grade A moron.
wtf was that signature
Servolisk
Profile Blog Joined February 2003
United States5241 Posts
September 28 2008 03:49 GMT
#1527
My above opinion is what I would think even if I bought into media portrayals of Iran, but to add to it:
+ Show Spoiler +

just returned from a three-week trip to Iran. I seized the opportunity to travel there with a small group of New Zealanders, thinking it might be wise as an American citizen to keep a low profile and enjoy the "cover" provided by this non-American contingent of travelers.

Upon arrival, our concerns about being American were immediately dispelled. There was not a single incident of animosity. Rather, the vast majority of the Iranians we met expressed admiration for the American people and appreciated the fact that we chose to visit their country.

In one encounter, we met an elderly man who asked where we were from. When I told him America, his face broke into a huge grin, and he said, "Ah! We're enemies then!" A long, friendly conversation followed.

Overall, we found the people engaging; Persian history inspiring; the architecture, poetry, art and geography impressive; and the food excellent.

An important perspective to keep in mind as we decide what our relations with Iran will be, however, is that the Iranians have their own list of grievances about the West, and the United States in particular.

For starters, in 1953, a CIA-organized coup overthrew Mohammad Mosaddegh, the democratically elected prime minister, and reinstalled the Shah of Iran, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, which guaranteed virtually free oil for companies from the United Kingdom and the United States.

Later, the United States and other Western countries and the Soviet Union encouraged and supported Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein to invade Iran. This resulted in more than 1 million Iranian casualties and the destruction of the country's economic infrastructure.

In 1988, the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian commercial flight in its proper flight pattern, killing 290 people. The United States paid compensation to non-Iranian victims only and failed to apologize.

Then there is the U.S. role in the destabilization of the 600-mile border with Afghanistan that has created a serious drug and AIDS problem in Iran, and increasing evidence that the CIA is supporting anti-government indigenous groups on the Pakistani and Turkish borders with Iran. Iran's involvement with the border of Iraq is in its national interest, particularly because of the large contiguous Shiite population.

Many modern Iranians question why they are denied nuclear development when India, Pakistan and Israel gained access in the same illegal manner. Iranians feel threatened by neighboring countries, including Russia. Finally, the United States is holding five Iranian citizens with diplomatic status in Iraq despite the sovereign government of Iraq's demand for their release.

I do not intend to defend all of these perspectives posed by Iranians, but point them out to show a larger and more accurate picture of the issues at hand. Our government has got to take a responsible position. Lines of communication must be opened.

http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/189262


Short list btw, missing things such as the US funding terrorist groups that are willing to attack Iran (killer irony in a few ways).
wtf was that signature
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-28 03:54:50
September 28 2008 03:54 GMT
#1528
PHILADELPHIA (CNN) – Sarah Palin partook in an established political ritual on Saturday night when she headed to Tony Luke's in south Philadelphia to order a pair of cheesesteaks with whiz and onions.

But as the kitchen sizzled and orders were barked out, Palin found herself talking politics, calling McCain's debate performance "awesome" and taking questions from a voter about the hunt for terrorists in Pakistan.

While waiting in line with her daughter Willow to place her order, a reporter asked Palin if she watched Friday's debate, and what her impressions were.

"I did, I did," she said. "McCain did awesome. He was great. He was absolutely on his game."

Palin added that she is ready to debate Joe Biden next Thursday in St. Louis.

"I am," she said. "Look forward to it. Look forward to getting to speak to Americans through that debate, absolutely."

The governor got a more serious interrogation moments later when Temple graduate student Michael Rovito approached her to inquire about Pakistan.

"How about the Pakistan situation?," asked Rovito, who said he was not a Palin supporter. "What's your thoughts about that?"

"In Pakistan?," she asked, looking surprised.

"What's going on over there, like Waziristan?"

"It's working with [Pakistani president] Zardari to make sure that we're all working together to stop the guys from coming in over the border," she told him. "And we'll go from there."

Rovito wasn't finished. "Waziristan is blowing up!," he said.

"Yeah it is," Palin said, "and the economy there is blowing up too."

"So we do cross border, like from Afghanistan to Pakistan you think?," Rovito asked.

"If that's what we have to do stop the terrorists from coming any further in, absolutely, we should," Palin responded, before moving on to greet other voters.

You can bet your ass she won't be going to any bars around Cambridge or New Haven.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
September 28 2008 04:03 GMT
#1529
On September 28 2008 11:25 HeavenS wrote:
omg holy shit my I.Q actually went down after watching this video....

I think everyone should see Sarah Palin's interview by Katie Couric....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbQwAFobQxQ

I wouldn't let her near the presidency if my cock were on the line....well maybe i would, but still this lady is retarded. I don't think even she understands what she's saying.

hahaha
i love how she suddenly remembers one of the talking points his advisers have been trying to hammer through her skull.
'OH! its all about creating jobs'
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-28 04:14:59
September 28 2008 04:11 GMT
#1530
On September 28 2008 12:49 Servolisk wrote:
My above opinion is what I would think even if I bought into media portrayals of Iran, but to add to it:
+ Show Spoiler +

just returned from a three-week trip to Iran. I seized the opportunity to travel there with a small group of New Zealanders, thinking it might be wise as an American citizen to keep a low profile and enjoy the "cover" provided by this non-American contingent of travelers.

Upon arrival, our concerns about being American were immediately dispelled. There was not a single incident of animosity. Rather, the vast majority of the Iranians we met expressed admiration for the American people and appreciated the fact that we chose to visit their country.

In one encounter, we met an elderly man who asked where we were from. When I told him America, his face broke into a huge grin, and he said, "Ah! We're enemies then!" A long, friendly conversation followed.

Overall, we found the people engaging; Persian history inspiring; the architecture, poetry, art and geography impressive; and the food excellent.

An important perspective to keep in mind as we decide what our relations with Iran will be, however, is that the Iranians have their own list of grievances about the West, and the United States in particular.

For starters, in 1953, a CIA-organized coup overthrew Mohammad Mosaddegh, the democratically elected prime minister, and reinstalled the Shah of Iran, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, which guaranteed virtually free oil for companies from the United Kingdom and the United States.

Later, the United States and other Western countries and the Soviet Union encouraged and supported Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein to invade Iran. This resulted in more than 1 million Iranian casualties and the destruction of the country's economic infrastructure.

In 1988, the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian commercial flight in its proper flight pattern, killing 290 people. The United States paid compensation to non-Iranian victims only and failed to apologize.

Then there is the U.S. role in the destabilization of the 600-mile border with Afghanistan that has created a serious drug and AIDS problem in Iran, and increasing evidence that the CIA is supporting anti-government indigenous groups on the Pakistani and Turkish borders with Iran. Iran's involvement with the border of Iraq is in its national interest, particularly because of the large contiguous Shiite population.

Many modern Iranians question why they are denied nuclear development when India, Pakistan and Israel gained access in the same illegal manner. Iranians feel threatened by neighboring countries, including Russia. Finally, the United States is holding five Iranian citizens with diplomatic status in Iraq despite the sovereign government of Iraq's demand for their release.

I do not intend to defend all of these perspectives posed by Iranians, but point them out to show a larger and more accurate picture of the issues at hand. Our government has got to take a responsible position. Lines of communication must be opened.

http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/189262


Short list btw, missing things such as the US funding terrorist groups that are willing to attack Iran (killer irony in a few ways).

Thank you for this post. I haven't had any personal experiences and it's hard to get current information on Iran's politics, but I was pretty confident the civil situation was much like you described.

The US really should be making strong alliances with China and Iran, and we need to be supportive and fair with Turkey (it's possible to keep them close but still express concern about the situation with Kurds and Armenians.) They're all large, quickly industrializing countries with big educated populaces so they provide both military stabilization and a healthy economic partner. Not only would they provide assistance against sunni terrorists, but they all have serious issues with Russia. Of course Russia will become upset (with good reason) because they'll be entirely surrounded but it'll help us apply pressure without actually needing to start conflicts.

Bobilion was right about Saudi Arabia being upset and they probably would be if Iran was a real partner with the US, but seriously, fuck Saudi Arabia. Brother Abdullah has been reforming, but it's still way too slow and they're still our #1 terrorist problem. Oil is an issue, but sooner or later their shia muslims (who are regarded as worse than jews or christians) are going to stage an uprising anyways and they're the ones who live around the oil fields. No one gets a free pass like Saudi Arabia does but it needs to stop and they lose all of their economic power if that shia base gets energized (and Iran would help with that.)

I know this is turning into a poli sci discussion, but it's disheartening to hear both candidates talk like such neo-realists and stuck in country molds from 20 years ago. They're talking about a few of the right countries, but they're still doing it in a very conservative way. Given Obama's academic background, I'd hope he's only doing it because it's the best political image and the public doesn't understand geopolitics.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Flaccid
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
8843 Posts
September 28 2008 04:21 GMT
#1531
On September 28 2008 12:04 BlackJack wrote:
McCain doesn't agree with it because he believes the President of the United States meeting with another head of state legitimizes their regime


Building up a nuclear arsenal might legitimize their regime as well...

/puts on tinfoil hat

All I'm saying is that a lot of these regimes 'seek' to become legitimized. Look at North Korea and Kim Jung Il waving his arms in the air "hey dudes, I've got bombs now, gonna pay attention to me??" There are worse ways for them to gain ground in their own minds than to have meaningful, progressive dialogue with other world leaders.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Flaccid
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
8843 Posts
September 28 2008 04:26 GMT
#1532
BTW, it's really cool to see people (I assume post TLers are 'young' people) so informed and involved in this year's election. I remember four years ago when it was just "oh shit, get rid of Bush" but people still didn't take the time to read the different policies and discuss them with each other.

I only wish a similar thing could happen up here in Canada. Our elections are a joke and nothing has ever happened to crack the large-scale voter apathy in 30 years =[
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Kennigit *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada19447 Posts
September 28 2008 04:30 GMT
#1533
It's really funny listening to her because shes so incredibly nervous and stressed because she doesn't really know what shes talking about and deep down recognizes this fact. Listen to her sentance structure as she emphasizes the wrong words. It's like if Etter went on a 3 week meth trip.
Flaccid
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
8843 Posts
September 28 2008 04:33 GMT
#1534
I'll cap my triple post (assuming no one has broken my combo) by posting a comprehensive analysis of the debate in a spoiler:

+ Show Spoiler +

Why Voters Thought Obama Won

TPM has the internals of the CNN poll of debate-watchers, which had Obama winning overall by a margin of 51-38. The poll suggests that Obama is opening up a gap on connectedness, while closing a gap on readiness.

Specifically, by a 62-32 margin, voters thought that Obama was “more in touch with the needs and problems of people like you”. This is a gap that has no doubt grown because of the financial crisis of recent days. But it also grew because Obama was actually speaking to middle class voters. Per the transcript, McCain never once mentioned the phrase “middle class” (Obama did so three times). And Obama’s eye contact was directly with the camera, i.e. the voters at home. McCain seemed to be speaking literally to the people in the room in Mississippi, but figuratively to the punditry. It is no surprise that a small majority of pundits seemed to have thought that McCain won, even when the polls indicated otherwise; the pundits were his target audience.

Something as simple as Obama mentioning that he’ll cut taxes for “95 percent of working families” is worth, I would guess, a point or so in the national polls. Obama had not been speaking enough about his middle class tax cut; there was some untapped potential there, and Obama may have gotten the message to sink in tonight.

By contrast, I don’t think McCain’s pressing Obama on earmarks was time well spent for him. One, it simply not something that voters care all that much about, given the other pressures the economy faces. But also, it is not something that voters particularly associate with Obama, as the McCain campaign had not really pressed this line of attack. If you’re going to introduce a new line of attack late in a campaign, it has better be a more effective one that earmarks. And then there was McCain's technocratic line about the virtues of lowering corporate taxes, one which might represent perfectly valid economic policy, but which was exactly the sort of patrician argument that lost George H.W. Bush the election in 1992.

Meanwhile, voters thought that Obama “seemed to be the stronger leader” by a 49-43 margin, reversing a traditional area of McCain strength. And voters thought that the candidates were equally likely to be able to handle the job of president if elected.

These internals are worse for McCain than the topline results, because they suggest not only that McCain missed one of his few remaining opportunities to close the gap with Barack Obama, but also that he has few places to go. The only category in which McCain rated significantly higher than Obama was on “spent more time attacking his opponent”. McCain won that one by 37 points.

My other annoyance with the punditry is that they seem to weight all segments of the debate equally. There were eight segments in this debate: bailout, economy, spending, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Russia, terrorism. The pundit consensus seems to be that Obama won the segments on the bailout, the economy, and Iraq, drew the segment on Afghanistan, and lost the other four. So, McCain wins 4-3, right? Except that, voters don’t weight these issues anywhere near evenly. In Peter Hart’s recent poll for NBC, 43 percent of voters listed the economy or the financial crisis as their top priority, 12 percent as Iraq, and 13 percent terrorism or other foreign policy issues. What happens if we give Obama two out of three economic voters (corresponding to the fact that he won two out of the three segments on the economy), and the Iraq voters, but give McCain all the “other foreign policy” voters?


Issue...........Priority......Obama.....McCain
Economy........43..............29..........14
Iraq................12 .............12............0
Foreign Policy.13............. 0 ...........13
==========================================
Total ............................ 41...........27

By this measure, Obama “won” by 14 points, which almost exactly his margin in the CNN poll.

McCain’s essential problem is that his fundamental strength – his experience -- is specifically not viewed by voters as carrying over to the economy. And the economy is pretty much all that voters care about these days.

EDIT: The CBS poll of undecideds has more confirmatory detail. Obama went from a +18 on "understanding your needs and problems" before the debate to a +56 (!) afterward. And he went from a -9 on "prepared to be president" to a +21.

source
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Flaccid
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
8843 Posts
September 28 2008 04:41 GMT
#1535
Oh, another thing.

On the 'I have a bracelet too' remark. I see a lot of people talking about it here, but is it because you thought it was silly or because you thought it was a hilarious zinger?

Personally, I thought the latter. McCain went on this big tirade about his bracelet and this mom who doesn't want her son to have died 'in vain' etc. etc. and expected it to resonate and then Obama just kind of elimated his point in one solid blow by being like "hey, I've got one too and for the opposite reasons. What's your point?"

Either way, lulz were had and I like that. I like to be entertained ;-)
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
wswordsmen
Profile Joined October 2007
United States987 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-28 04:54:21
September 28 2008 04:50 GMT
#1536
On September 28 2008 13:41 Flaccid wrote:
Oh, another thing.

On the 'I have a bracelet too' remark. I see a lot of people talking about it here, but is it because you thought it was silly or because you thought it was a hilarious zinger?

Personally, I thought the latter. McCain went on this big tirade about his bracelet and this mom who doesn't want her son to have died 'in vain' etc. etc. and expected it to resonate and then Obama just kind of elimated his point in one solid blow by being like "hey, I've got one too and for the opposite reasons. What's your point?"

Either way, lulz were had and I like that. I like to be entertained ;-)

Speaking of that bracelet incident I couldn't watch the whole of the debates, but I watched a big chunk of them so I don't want the entire thing for what I missed, but does anyone have a video of the bracelet incident.

edit never mind I found it.

Orome
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Switzerland11984 Posts
September 28 2008 05:07 GMT
#1537
On September 28 2008 13:41 Flaccid wrote:
Oh, another thing.

On the 'I have a bracelet too' remark. I see a lot of people talking about it here, but is it because you thought it was silly or because you thought it was a hilarious zinger?

Personally, I thought the latter. McCain went on this big tirade about his bracelet and this mom who doesn't want her son to have died 'in vain' etc. etc. and expected it to resonate and then Obama just kind of elimated his point in one solid blow by being like "hey, I've got one too and for the opposite reasons. What's your point?"

Either way, lulz were had and I like that. I like to be entertained ;-)


Well it was a good thing he said it but it just sounded a little funny at the time, like two elementary kids fighting over who's better at Pokemon. 'I've got a Mew too!'
On a purely personal note, I'd like to show Yellow the beauty of infinitely repeating Starcraft 2 bunkers. -Boxer
Jimtudor
Profile Joined June 2007
Canada259 Posts
September 28 2008 05:14 GMT
#1538
I think that's a logical and natural rebuttal from obama. If he didn't address that bracelet properly like he did there, Mccain's line would be all over the press. It negated the effect of mccain's speech of 1 min. in 20 seconds and then added something to the table.
QuietIdiot
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
7004 Posts
September 28 2008 06:06 GMT
#1539

Entire congressional debate in case anyone missed it.

wswordsmen
Profile Joined October 2007
United States987 Posts
September 28 2008 10:07 GMT
#1540
On September 28 2008 14:14 Jimtudor wrote:
I think that's a logical and natural rebuttal from obama. If he didn't address that bracelet properly like he did there, Mccain's line would be all over the press. It negated the effect of mccain's speech of 1 min. in 20 seconds and then added something to the table.

I want tp say more, but that is everything that needs to be said.
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