EPT[D] MBS Discussion - Page 21
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YinYang69
United States255 Posts
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SoleSteeler
Canada5449 Posts
edit: and it's also pretty much how it is in War3, since you rarely have more than 1-2 of the same production building, tab cycles through your different subgroups. So you hit "0", hit f, build 2 footmen, tab, hit s, build 2 sorcs etc. The concept is quite intuitive | ||
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Lazerflip!
United States25 Posts
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Fen
Australia1848 Posts
On December 04 2007 05:03 1esu wrote: This isn't actually that difficult, as I've said all you need is for both beta testers to agree to not shift-click their buildings, and boom, you've got SBS. Unfortunately, there's likely to be at least a few imbalances due to the fact that the game is designed assuming both players are using MBS, but I still think it's a good experiment to run. The first time I saw you post this idea, I assumed you were being sarcastic. However posting it again makes me believe that you are not. And if you are not being sarcastic you are just being a moron. Everyone in this topic should agree that both sides of the argument should be tested in public beta. If you do not, your leaving no room for the fact that your theorycrafting could be wrong. And if your unable to be openminded about this, you should get the hell out of this discussion. | ||
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1esu
United States303 Posts
On December 04 2007 15:09 Fen wrote: The first time I saw you post this idea, I assumed you were being sarcastic. However posting it again makes me believe that you are not. And if you are not being sarcastic you are just being a moron. Everyone in this topic should agree that both sides of the argument should be tested in public beta. If you do not, your leaving no room for the fact that your theorycrafting could be wrong. And if your unable to be openminded about this, you should get the hell out of this discussion. Huh? I'm agreeing with you that both sides should be tried out, I'm simply pointing out that it doesn't require changes to the codebase to play with SBS: if both players don't shift-click their buildings, they will be playing with SBS, since shift-clicking is (currently) the only way to select multiple buildings. Therefore, it's easier to test SBS in SC2 than you originally surmised; all you have to do is create custom melee games with "SBS" in the title, and let the community know that in such games shift-clicking buildings is not allowed. Now, if you mean that there should be two seperate beta versions of SC2, with one's gameplay balanced around SBS and the other's gameplay balanced around MBS, that's different, and I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. | ||
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Brutalisk
794 Posts
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YinYang69
United States255 Posts
On December 04 2007 08:22 SoleSteeler wrote: Not really that strange of a limitation, you don't always want to build 12 marines with 12 barracks; sometimes you want to make 6 marines, 3 firebats, 3 medics. etc. edit: and it's also pretty much how it is in War3, since you rarely have more than 1-2 of the same production building, tab cycles through your different subgroups. So you hit "0", hit f, build 2 footmen, tab, hit s, build 2 sorcs etc. The concept is quite intuitive In war3 you cycle through different buildings. So you can group barrack with arcane sanctum and cycle between them. What he is suggesting is that each individual barrack has to be tab cycle through. And chances are you want to keep macro up and use all your barracks all the time otherwise you putting them to waste. On the off chance you don't want to build from all 12 barracks you can shift deselect the barracks off. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17432 Posts
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Fen
Australia1848 Posts
On December 04 2007 17:43 Brutalisk wrote: That's OK for testing purposes but once the game is released you can't expect that players can trust other players not to use MBS if it is available. Even in testing you cannot trust people. This is the internet folks, random members of the public are not going to adhere to gentlemen agreements when there is absolutly no reason to. There needs to be a SBS build that limits players. That way, everyone will try it out, and we can see what real rections are. Not just 20 BW players who decided to make an agreement not to use a certain feature. | ||
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Lazerflip!
United States25 Posts
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On December 04 2007 22:59 Manit0u wrote: Shift-deselecting buildings takes time and opens some mistake probabilities, same goes when you want to build various units from several buildings of the same type. That's why I'm all for multi-production without the need for tabbing. I'm against drag-select buildings though. I always thought that skill requirements and the possibility for mistakes go hand in hand. | ||
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badjez
Sweden8 Posts
But what about making it impossible to hotkey several buildings into one group. This could be made by simply displaying a little error message when trying to do so. This would force players to still go back to their base to produce their units and they will have to actually go to their expansions to create new workers rather than just staying in the battle pressing "9s" every 20 seconds. The "noobs" that will probably just play the singleplayer and maybe some games with a friend or whatever probably wont be hotkeying their buildings anyway and will be happy enough just being able to select all their buildings quickly. This idea has probably already been brought up but as i see it is a good middle way between the two options. If anyone sees a big flaw in this please inform me. | ||
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Brutalisk
794 Posts
On December 05 2007 00:55 Lazerflip! wrote: I don't see why pro-MBS people are even given the credibility of an open discussion. The idea is just plain insulting. An answer for your level: You are playing a game that has a n00bified version of Warcraft 2's UI. How's that feel? Then, if you have a higher IQ than a pile of crap, you'll say "yeah but it's necessary because the old UI sucked hard". Then, if you have a higher IQ than a monkey, you'll *know* why this discussion exists at all. | ||
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GeneralStan
United States4789 Posts
On December 05 2007 03:51 Brutalisk wrote: An answer for your level: You are playing a game that has a n00bified version of Warcraft 2's UI. How's that feel? Then, if you have a higher IQ than a pile of crap, you'll say "yeah but it's necessary because the old UI sucked hard". Then, if you have a higher IQ than a monkey, you'll *know* why this discussion exists at all. Don't feed the trolls. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 05 2007 00:55 Lazerflip! wrote: I don't see why pro-MBS people are even given the credibility of an open discussion. The idea is just plain insulting. Don't do this. BTW, I think if I see people using the 'Dune' argument again (or people responding to it with similarily stupid arguments), I'll just start handing out insta-bans. | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17432 Posts
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stk01001
United States786 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On December 05 2007 15:00 D10 wrote: What if eveytime you build a unit your screen moves to that building regardless of hotkey using, or some kind of mechanism that makes your come back to your base several times during the game, other than that i dont think MBS will impact the game negatively if sc2 is balanced with that in mind, and i dont see a reason why the game couldnt carry on the awesome sc1 felling of micro and macro. Motion sickness from having your screen jump between 30 gateways would be pretty bad. | ||
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ForAdun
Germany986 Posts
On December 06 2007 00:20 stk01001 wrote: Having to go back to your base to build a building is hardly a relevant issue. It takes 2 seconds to make a building, and you only make like 20-30 buildings the entire game. Thanks for saying that, I can now use it as an anti-MBS argument. I will talk about the ideal case first, TvZ only. Lets say the game takes 20 minutes. You make ~30 buildings which takes 60 seconds. So placing buildings is 5% of your gameplay. Lets say it takes 1 second to produce one set of units in the early game, 3 seconds in the middle game and 5 seconds in the late game. We take only early game and middle game into consideration so we simply take 2 seconds for producing one set of units. Marines/firebats finish after 24 seconds. Medics 30 seconds. Tanks 50 seconds. Vessels 80 seconds. Since you build marines most of the time we take only their build time into consideration and forget the rest. In a 20 minute game you produce ~45 sets of marines (the first 2 minutes don't count) which takes 90 seconds. So producing marines is 7,5% of your gameplay. Conclusion: In case of MBS we end up sparing 12,5% of our gameplay in an ideal case. We all know that there is no ideal case in SC so we must round up to at least 15%. 15% of your gameplay is lost through MBS. This is 30% of our macro-management. Even more is lost through automining so we may end up "sparing" 40% of our macro-management in SC2. | ||
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