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On September 10 2007 09:14 orangedude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 08:55 Aphelion wrote:
Its the MENTAL part of it which makes it hard.
They still have to do it, even with MBS implemented. Like you say, the MENTAL part is what makes it hard. Next, add in stuff like warpgates to occupy some of that apm.
Its much easier to just go repeatedly 5-d in battle without thinking about it. Having to take your eye of it and go back to base to macro 20 gates is much harder.
Trust me I know this, its my huge weakness in SC.
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On September 10 2007 09:16 Aphelion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 09:14 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 08:55 Aphelion wrote:
Its the MENTAL part of it which makes it hard.
They still have to do it, even with MBS implemented. Like you say, the MENTAL part is what makes it hard. Next, add in stuff like warpgates to occupy some of that apm. Its much easier to just go repeatedly 5-d in battle without thinking about it. Having to take your eye of it and go back to base to macro 20 gates is much harder. Trust me I know this, its my huge weakness in SC.
Yup, this is it, there is a mental question of "Is it worth it to assign my 40 next actions into unit production?" wich will dissapear, and if you like that kind of thing sure, and its a very important question wich can be very hard to answer.
But the thing is, cant we have the same question of "Is it worth my next 40 actions to micro production, or should i just do 10 actions and get a less diverse army, or should i do 2 actions and get a full single unit army. or should i continue to micro not wastin all my money on a single unit army and instead get a diverse army later when i have time?". This would give multitasking a lot more depth, but it wouldnt be as big difference between the choices as before.
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On September 10 2007 09:16 Aphelion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 09:14 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 08:55 Aphelion wrote:
Its the MENTAL part of it which makes it hard.
They still have to do it, even with MBS implemented. Like you say, the MENTAL part is what makes it hard. Next, add in stuff like warpgates to occupy some of that apm. Its much easier to just go repeatedly 5-d in battle without thinking about it. Having to take your eye of it and go back to base to macro 20 gates is much harder. Trust me I know this, its my huge weakness in SC.
You'd be surprised actually how easy it still is to forget in the heat of battle, even if it was just a hotkey. What about when SC is still at the stage of 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z. Is macro effortless during that time for you? Maybe if you have the time to try SC2 beta, we'll see if this weakness is actually improved as much you think.
Even in War3, where there is often only one or two production buildings, I'm quite sure I can win games against 50% of people by macro alone.
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On September 10 2007 09:25 orangedude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 09:16 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:14 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 08:55 Aphelion wrote:
Its the MENTAL part of it which makes it hard.
They still have to do it, even with MBS implemented. Like you say, the MENTAL part is what makes it hard. Next, add in stuff like warpgates to occupy some of that apm. Its much easier to just go repeatedly 5-d in battle without thinking about it. Having to take your eye of it and go back to base to macro 20 gates is much harder. Trust me I know this, its my huge weakness in SC. You'd be surprised actually how easy it still is to forget in the heat of battle, even if it was just a hotkey. What about when SC is still at the stage of 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z. Is macro effortless during that time for you? Maybe if you have the time to try SC2 beta, we'll see if this weakness is actually improved as much you think.
I know that when my gates are still low in number, say, I'm zealot rushing PvZ its real easy to continually spam 5z6z out of pure inertia without even realizing it. Pulling myself away from the battle in PvT to macro my 20 gates is considerably more difficult.
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On September 10 2007 09:28 Aphelion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 09:25 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:16 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:14 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 08:55 Aphelion wrote:
Its the MENTAL part of it which makes it hard.
They still have to do it, even with MBS implemented. Like you say, the MENTAL part is what makes it hard. Next, add in stuff like warpgates to occupy some of that apm. Its much easier to just go repeatedly 5-d in battle without thinking about it. Having to take your eye of it and go back to base to macro 20 gates is much harder. Trust me I know this, its my huge weakness in SC. You'd be surprised actually how easy it still is to forget in the heat of battle, even if it was just a hotkey. What about when SC is still at the stage of 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z. Is macro effortless during that time for you? Maybe if you have the time to try SC2 beta, we'll see if this weakness is actually improved as much you think. I know that when my gates are still low in number, say, I'm zealot rushing PvZ its real easy to continually spam 5z6z out of pure inertia without even realizing it. Pulling myself away from the battle in PvT to macro my 20 gates is considerably more difficult.
Maybe it is easy for you because you've already trained to that point. It is not so for most players. Same way ALL pros have already trained to be able to queue units from all their gates in a mere second. The only thing limiting them then is MENTAL ability like you pointed out.
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On September 10 2007 09:39 orangedude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 09:28 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:25 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:16 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:14 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 08:55 Aphelion wrote:
Its the MENTAL part of it which makes it hard.
They still have to do it, even with MBS implemented. Like you say, the MENTAL part is what makes it hard. Next, add in stuff like warpgates to occupy some of that apm. Its much easier to just go repeatedly 5-d in battle without thinking about it. Having to take your eye of it and go back to base to macro 20 gates is much harder. Trust me I know this, its my huge weakness in SC. You'd be surprised actually how easy it still is to forget in the heat of battle, even if it was just a hotkey. What about when SC is still at the stage of 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z. Is macro effortless during that time for you? Maybe if you have the time to try SC2 beta, we'll see if this weakness is actually improved as much you think. I know that when my gates are still low in number, say, I'm zealot rushing PvZ its real easy to continually spam 5z6z out of pure inertia without even realizing it. Pulling myself away from the battle in PvT to macro my 20 gates is considerably more difficult. Maybe it is easy for you because you've already trained to that point. It is not so for most players. Same way ALL pros have already trained to be able to queue units from all their gates in a mere second. The only thing limiting them then is MENTAL ability like you pointed out.
Disingenous argument. Having to GO BACK TO YOUR BASE when performing as difficult micro as the pros do against as tough opponents will ALWAYS be a huge factor no matter how much you train. Its not just finger patterns at that point, you will HAVE to consciously decide to go back to macro. Which is why even pros have idle scvs and production facilities in late game. Yellow was constantly ridiculed for having to go back to his own hatcheries to macro.
And you consider my puny exhibition of doing 5z6z having "trained" to that point? You should have been mocking me for my terrible multitasking and macro. Just how much do you play SC anyways?
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On September 10 2007 09:08 orangedude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 08:55 Aphelion wrote:
Nada WAS ON TOP OF HIS GAME. Savior simply broke him down and raised the game to an intensity which he cannot match. Nada didn't spontaneously combust – SAVIOR MADE HIM DO IT.
How did Savior break Nada down? Did he physically go over to his side and punch him? Did he insult his mother before the games? Did he bad manner him during his game? Nada is the one who succumbed to pressure (although he has a very good record of maintaining control even under a lot of stress), and made several huge mistakes. And also, you have changed some your argument to "I don't know the game well enough" to invalidate my points. That doesn't help you at all, when some of them were hypothetical from the start.
Dude what the fuck?
"The bat didn't break his skull, his skull is just succumbed to the force of the bat!"
On September 10 2007 09:14 orangedude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 08:55 Aphelion wrote:
Its the MENTAL part of it which makes it hard.
They still have to do it, even with MBS implemented. Like you say, the MENTAL part is what makes it hard. Next, add in stuff like warpgates to occupy some of that apm.
Here's the problem, you don't have to use warp gates, you can just use conventional gateways and unless you can come up with something that can actually take the place of macroing this argument is moot.
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On September 10 2007 09:16 Aphelion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 09:14 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 08:55 Aphelion wrote:
Its the MENTAL part of it which makes it hard.
They still have to do it, even with MBS implemented. Like you say, the MENTAL part is what makes it hard. Next, add in stuff like warpgates to occupy some of that apm. Its much easier to just go repeatedly 5-d in battle without thinking about it. Having to take your eye of it and go back to base to macro 20 gates is much harder. Trust me I know this, its my huge weakness in SC.
And since 5-d is such an easier action to do, it correspondingly is much less effective because pure goons will lose horribly to mass tanks or lings. Going for all one unit is even more suicidal in SC2 because counters seem to be a lot harder, so the top players will still have to go back to their base and click on buildings individually if he doesn't want to get slaughtered by a counter.
btw Starcraft is not close to being played perfectly. Have you ever seen the threads in the strategy forum where someone suggests a micro-intensive strategy based on spell-use and it gets shot down just because it takes enough APM to put a halt on your factories?
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On September 10 2007 09:58 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 09:16 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:14 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 08:55 Aphelion wrote:
Its the MENTAL part of it which makes it hard.
They still have to do it, even with MBS implemented. Like you say, the MENTAL part is what makes it hard. Next, add in stuff like warpgates to occupy some of that apm. Its much easier to just go repeatedly 5-d in battle without thinking about it. Having to take your eye of it and go back to base to macro 20 gates is much harder. Trust me I know this, its my huge weakness in SC. And since 5-d is such an easier action to do, it correspondingly is much less effective because pure goons will lose horribly to mass tanks or lings. Going for all one unit is even more suicidal in SC2 because counters seem to be a lot harder, so the top players will still have to go back to their base and click on buildings individually if he doesn't want to get slaughtered by a counter. btw Starcraft is not close to being played perfectly. Have you ever seen the threads in the strategy forum where someone suggests a micro-intensive strategy based on spell-use and it gets shot down just because it takes enough APM to put a halt on your factories?
Like I said before pure dragoon is better than no units at all. We all know how quickly your bank and build up just within 20 seconds of not macroing.
Edit: In fact, you can just 5z as soon as your goons are done and have a nice balanced army while you're still microing.
Who said SC is being played perfectly? Where did this come from?
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On September 10 2007 09:58 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 09:16 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:14 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 08:55 Aphelion wrote:
Its the MENTAL part of it which makes it hard.
They still have to do it, even with MBS implemented. Like you say, the MENTAL part is what makes it hard. Next, add in stuff like warpgates to occupy some of that apm. Its much easier to just go repeatedly 5-d in battle without thinking about it. Having to take your eye of it and go back to base to macro 20 gates is much harder. Trust me I know this, its my huge weakness in SC. And since 5-d is such an easier action to do, it correspondingly is much less effective because pure goons will lose horribly to mass tanks or lings. Going for all one unit is even more suicidal in SC2 because counters seem to be a lot harder, so the top players will still have to go back to their base and click on buildings individually if he doesn't want to get slaughtered by a counter. btw Starcraft is not close to being played perfectly. Have you ever seen the threads in the strategy forum where someone suggests a micro-intensive strategy based on spell-use and it gets shot down just because it takes enough APM to put a halt on your factories?
You can still easily assign groups. MBS does make macro way too easy and less attention absorbing.
And typically those threads you describe are just unrealistic and suck, not just from an APM standpoint, but also from economical reasons and lack if understanding of game dynamics. Plus, I would like to see stuff like Boxer's lockdown remain what they are, highly rare, difficult, and spectacular.
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On September 10 2007 09:44 Aphelion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 09:39 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:28 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:25 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:16 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:14 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 08:55 Aphelion wrote:
Its the MENTAL part of it which makes it hard.
They still have to do it, even with MBS implemented. Like you say, the MENTAL part is what makes it hard. Next, add in stuff like warpgates to occupy some of that apm. Its much easier to just go repeatedly 5-d in battle without thinking about it. Having to take your eye of it and go back to base to macro 20 gates is much harder. Trust me I know this, its my huge weakness in SC. You'd be surprised actually how easy it still is to forget in the heat of battle, even if it was just a hotkey. What about when SC is still at the stage of 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z. Is macro effortless during that time for you? Maybe if you have the time to try SC2 beta, we'll see if this weakness is actually improved as much you think. I know that when my gates are still low in number, say, I'm zealot rushing PvZ its real easy to continually spam 5z6z out of pure inertia without even realizing it. Pulling myself away from the battle in PvT to macro my 20 gates is considerably more difficult. Maybe it is easy for you because you've already trained to that point. It is not so for most players. Same way ALL pros have already trained to be able to queue units from all their gates in a mere second. The only thing limiting them then is MENTAL ability like you pointed out. Disingenous argument. Having to GO BACK TO YOUR BASE when performing as difficult micro as the pros do against as tough opponents will ALWAYS be a huge factor no matter how much you train. Its not just finger patterns at that point, you will HAVE to consciously decide to go back to macro. Which is why even pros have idle scvs and production facilities in late game. Yellow was constantly ridiculed for having to go back to his own hatcheries to macro. And you consider my puny exhibition of doing 5z6z having "trained" to that point? You should have been mocking me for my terrible multitasking and macro. Just how much do you play SC anyways?
Dude, I'm not comparing this to myself, but to MOST people. That's what SC2 is targeted to, the majority. Of course I can easily pull off 2 gate macro during a rush.
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The majority posts trash in the supcom forums thinking that TA > SC. If THATS who you are targeting to, your already lost.
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On September 10 2007 10:07 orangedude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 09:44 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:39 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:28 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:25 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:16 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:14 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 08:55 Aphelion wrote:
Its the MENTAL part of it which makes it hard.
They still have to do it, even with MBS implemented. Like you say, the MENTAL part is what makes it hard. Next, add in stuff like warpgates to occupy some of that apm. Its much easier to just go repeatedly 5-d in battle without thinking about it. Having to take your eye of it and go back to base to macro 20 gates is much harder. Trust me I know this, its my huge weakness in SC. You'd be surprised actually how easy it still is to forget in the heat of battle, even if it was just a hotkey. What about when SC is still at the stage of 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z. Is macro effortless during that time for you? Maybe if you have the time to try SC2 beta, we'll see if this weakness is actually improved as much you think. I know that when my gates are still low in number, say, I'm zealot rushing PvZ its real easy to continually spam 5z6z out of pure inertia without even realizing it. Pulling myself away from the battle in PvT to macro my 20 gates is considerably more difficult. Maybe it is easy for you because you've already trained to that point. It is not so for most players. Same way ALL pros have already trained to be able to queue units from all their gates in a mere second. The only thing limiting them then is MENTAL ability like you pointed out. Disingenous argument. Having to GO BACK TO YOUR BASE when performing as difficult micro as the pros do against as tough opponents will ALWAYS be a huge factor no matter how much you train. Its not just finger patterns at that point, you will HAVE to consciously decide to go back to macro. Which is why even pros have idle scvs and production facilities in late game. Yellow was constantly ridiculed for having to go back to his own hatcheries to macro. And you consider my puny exhibition of doing 5z6z having "trained" to that point? You should have been mocking me for my terrible multitasking and macro. Just how much do you play SC anyways? Dude, I'm not comparing this to myself, but to MOST people. That's what SC2 is targeted to, the majority. Of course I can easily pull off 2 gate macro during a rush.
Hold on a second, you're assuming most people can't 5z6z yet you want to implement MBS?
Am I the only one who see's the problem here? From your point of view it's actually making it worse for new players if you truly believe people can't 5z6z.
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REGURGITATING MY ONLY POST IN THIS THREAD
On September 09 2007 12:28 SpiritoftheTuna wrote:
So basically what you're saying is
You're alienated by the amount of dexterity it takes to play starcraft effectively
and thus starcraft 2 should not have as much dexterity involved.
Doesn't that make this entirely opinion? I mean, if you say there doesn't have to be any difference between board games and computer games, then you imply that you simply want this to be a mind game, winner determined by decisions in strategy. Many people don't. Saying tl.net is biased is true, yes, many of us are more inclined toward keeping the dexterity. I don't get what's wrong with that, though. Computer games have variety, one of the features that made starcraft unique was the dexterity involved. You want to take that away, based on your opinion of what a perfect computer game would be.
All you're doing is regurgitating the opinions of the people that want starcraft 2 to require less dexterity to play. And all you're going to get out of this thread is people regurgitating their opinions wanting to keep as much dexterity in.
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On September 10 2007 10:12 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 10:07 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:44 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:39 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:28 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:25 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:16 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:14 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 08:55 Aphelion wrote:
Its the MENTAL part of it which makes it hard.
They still have to do it, even with MBS implemented. Like you say, the MENTAL part is what makes it hard. Next, add in stuff like warpgates to occupy some of that apm. Its much easier to just go repeatedly 5-d in battle without thinking about it. Having to take your eye of it and go back to base to macro 20 gates is much harder. Trust me I know this, its my huge weakness in SC. You'd be surprised actually how easy it still is to forget in the heat of battle, even if it was just a hotkey. What about when SC is still at the stage of 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z. Is macro effortless during that time for you? Maybe if you have the time to try SC2 beta, we'll see if this weakness is actually improved as much you think. I know that when my gates are still low in number, say, I'm zealot rushing PvZ its real easy to continually spam 5z6z out of pure inertia without even realizing it. Pulling myself away from the battle in PvT to macro my 20 gates is considerably more difficult. Maybe it is easy for you because you've already trained to that point. It is not so for most players. Same way ALL pros have already trained to be able to queue units from all their gates in a mere second. The only thing limiting them then is MENTAL ability like you pointed out. Disingenous argument. Having to GO BACK TO YOUR BASE when performing as difficult micro as the pros do against as tough opponents will ALWAYS be a huge factor no matter how much you train. Its not just finger patterns at that point, you will HAVE to consciously decide to go back to macro. Which is why even pros have idle scvs and production facilities in late game. Yellow was constantly ridiculed for having to go back to his own hatcheries to macro. And you consider my puny exhibition of doing 5z6z having "trained" to that point? You should have been mocking me for my terrible multitasking and macro. Just how much do you play SC anyways? Dude, I'm not comparing this to myself, but to MOST people. That's what SC2 is targeted to, the majority. Of course I can easily pull off 2 gate macro during a rush. Hold on a second, you're assuming most people can't 5z6z yet you want to implement MBS? Am I the only one who see's the problem here? From your point of view it's actually making it worse for new players if you truly believe people can't 5z6z.
Yes, most people cannot do it to perfection (i.e. keeping building in production 100% of the game). That isn't a problem at all.
On September 10 2007 10:09 Aphelion wrote:
The majority posts trash in the supcom forums thinking that TA > SC. If THATS who you are targeting to, your already lost.
It's not a lost cause at all. I'm sure those people don't honestly believe in all those reasons. It's probably just a few major ones such as 12 unit groups and lack of MBS that ticked them off the most. Everything else they're just nitpicking at.
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Those are the people we should not even be CONSIDERING when doing game balance and design.
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On September 10 2007 10:25 orangedude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 10:12 mahnini wrote:On September 10 2007 10:07 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:44 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:39 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:28 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:25 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:16 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:14 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 08:55 Aphelion wrote:
Its the MENTAL part of it which makes it hard.
They still have to do it, even with MBS implemented. Like you say, the MENTAL part is what makes it hard. Next, add in stuff like warpgates to occupy some of that apm. Its much easier to just go repeatedly 5-d in battle without thinking about it. Having to take your eye of it and go back to base to macro 20 gates is much harder. Trust me I know this, its my huge weakness in SC. You'd be surprised actually how easy it still is to forget in the heat of battle, even if it was just a hotkey. What about when SC is still at the stage of 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z. Is macro effortless during that time for you? Maybe if you have the time to try SC2 beta, we'll see if this weakness is actually improved as much you think. I know that when my gates are still low in number, say, I'm zealot rushing PvZ its real easy to continually spam 5z6z out of pure inertia without even realizing it. Pulling myself away from the battle in PvT to macro my 20 gates is considerably more difficult. Maybe it is easy for you because you've already trained to that point. It is not so for most players. Same way ALL pros have already trained to be able to queue units from all their gates in a mere second. The only thing limiting them then is MENTAL ability like you pointed out. Disingenous argument. Having to GO BACK TO YOUR BASE when performing as difficult micro as the pros do against as tough opponents will ALWAYS be a huge factor no matter how much you train. Its not just finger patterns at that point, you will HAVE to consciously decide to go back to macro. Which is why even pros have idle scvs and production facilities in late game. Yellow was constantly ridiculed for having to go back to his own hatcheries to macro. And you consider my puny exhibition of doing 5z6z having "trained" to that point? You should have been mocking me for my terrible multitasking and macro. Just how much do you play SC anyways? Dude, I'm not comparing this to myself, but to MOST people. That's what SC2 is targeted to, the majority. Of course I can easily pull off 2 gate macro during a rush. Hold on a second, you're assuming most people can't 5z6z yet you want to implement MBS? Am I the only one who see's the problem here? From your point of view it's actually making it worse for new players if you truly believe people can't 5z6z. Yes, most people cannot do it to perfection (i.e. keeping building in production 100% of the game). That isn't a problem at all. Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 10:09 Aphelion wrote:
The majority posts trash in the supcom forums thinking that TA > SC. If THATS who you are targeting to, your already lost. It's not a lost cause at all. I'm sure those people don't honestly believe in all those reasons. It's probably just a few major ones such as 12 unit groups and lack of MBS that ticked them off the most. Everything else they're just nitpicking at.
Ok firstly, he was talking about 2gate macroing and how it's reflex to macro during that not the entire game.
Secondly, it's a huge problem, this just makes it worse for the new players to get acquainted to the game. If a mid-level player can 5z with MBS 25% of the time and the new player can only 5z 10% of the time he's just going to get run over. A new player would get crushed even harder.
Here's the way I see it, and I'm seeing this through your way just for the hell of it.
1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10
There are many skill levels in SC but the gap between each is fairly low. The difference between 9 and 10 would be apparent but not too bad and the gap between 1 and 2 would be the same.
1-2-3-4-5
There are less skill levels in SC2 (with MBS) but the gap between each would be significantly larger. A player at skill level 1 would lose worse to a player at skill level 2 than in SC. While it does lower the gap between skill level 3 to 5.
So the improvement in SC is linear in terms of levels not time while the improvement in SC2 with MBS would be great at first but slowly become flat.
I don't know where this came from, random thoughts, carry on.
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On September 10 2007 10:41 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 10:25 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 10:12 mahnini wrote:On September 10 2007 10:07 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:44 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:39 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:28 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:25 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:16 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:14 orangedude wrote:
[quote]
They still have to do it, even with MBS implemented. Like you say, the MENTAL part is what makes it hard. Next, add in stuff like warpgates to occupy some of that apm. Its much easier to just go repeatedly 5-d in battle without thinking about it. Having to take your eye of it and go back to base to macro 20 gates is much harder. Trust me I know this, its my huge weakness in SC. You'd be surprised actually how easy it still is to forget in the heat of battle, even if it was just a hotkey. What about when SC is still at the stage of 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z. Is macro effortless during that time for you? Maybe if you have the time to try SC2 beta, we'll see if this weakness is actually improved as much you think. I know that when my gates are still low in number, say, I'm zealot rushing PvZ its real easy to continually spam 5z6z out of pure inertia without even realizing it. Pulling myself away from the battle in PvT to macro my 20 gates is considerably more difficult. Maybe it is easy for you because you've already trained to that point. It is not so for most players. Same way ALL pros have already trained to be able to queue units from all their gates in a mere second. The only thing limiting them then is MENTAL ability like you pointed out. Disingenous argument. Having to GO BACK TO YOUR BASE when performing as difficult micro as the pros do against as tough opponents will ALWAYS be a huge factor no matter how much you train. Its not just finger patterns at that point, you will HAVE to consciously decide to go back to macro. Which is why even pros have idle scvs and production facilities in late game. Yellow was constantly ridiculed for having to go back to his own hatcheries to macro. And you consider my puny exhibition of doing 5z6z having "trained" to that point? You should have been mocking me for my terrible multitasking and macro. Just how much do you play SC anyways? Dude, I'm not comparing this to myself, but to MOST people. That's what SC2 is targeted to, the majority. Of course I can easily pull off 2 gate macro during a rush. Hold on a second, you're assuming most people can't 5z6z yet you want to implement MBS? Am I the only one who see's the problem here? From your point of view it's actually making it worse for new players if you truly believe people can't 5z6z. Yes, most people cannot do it to perfection (i.e. keeping building in production 100% of the game). That isn't a problem at all. On September 10 2007 10:09 Aphelion wrote:
The majority posts trash in the supcom forums thinking that TA > SC. If THATS who you are targeting to, your already lost. It's not a lost cause at all. I'm sure those people don't honestly believe in all those reasons. It's probably just a few major ones such as 12 unit groups and lack of MBS that ticked them off the most. Everything else they're just nitpicking at. Ok firstly, he was talking about 2gate macroing and how it's reflex to macro during that not the entire game. Secondly, it's a huge problem, this just makes it worse for the new players to get acquainted to the game. If a mid-level player can 5z with MBS 25% of the time and the new player can only 5z 10% of the time he's just going to get run over. A new player would get crushed even harder. Here's the way I see it, and I'm seeing this through your way just for the hell of it. 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10 There are many skill levels in SC but the gap between each is fairly low. The difference between 9 and 10 would be apparent but not too bad and the gap between 1 and 2 would be the same. 1-2-3-4-5 There are less skill levels in SC2 (with MBS) but the gap between each would be significantly larger. A player at skill level 1 would lose worse to a player at skill level 2 than in SC. While it does lower the gap between skill level 3 to 5. So the improvement in SC is linear in terms of levels not time while the improvement in SC2 with MBS would be great at first but slowly become flat. I don't know where this came from, random thoughts, carry on.
Let's assume for a second that your theory holds true. Then tell me this. Why is narrowing the skill gap amongst lower level players a bad thing? This makes games more challenging and fun for them, since every game it's more likely that they're paired with someone else that's also close to them in terms of skill level. A group of friends can also play games between each other and have more fair games.
Also you have to take into account that the maximum skill level is also raised. Instead of 1-10 in SC, I think it would become something more like 1,4,7,9,10,11 in SC2. Most skill curves are in fact structured this way.
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On September 10 2007 10:49 orangedude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2007 10:41 mahnini wrote:On September 10 2007 10:25 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 10:12 mahnini wrote:On September 10 2007 10:07 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:44 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:39 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:28 Aphelion wrote:On September 10 2007 09:25 orangedude wrote:On September 10 2007 09:16 Aphelion wrote:
[quote]
Its much easier to just go repeatedly 5-d in battle without thinking about it. Having to take your eye of it and go back to base to macro 20 gates is much harder.
Trust me I know this, its my huge weakness in SC. You'd be surprised actually how easy it still is to forget in the heat of battle, even if it was just a hotkey. What about when SC is still at the stage of 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z. Is macro effortless during that time for you? Maybe if you have the time to try SC2 beta, we'll see if this weakness is actually improved as much you think. I know that when my gates are still low in number, say, I'm zealot rushing PvZ its real easy to continually spam 5z6z out of pure inertia without even realizing it. Pulling myself away from the battle in PvT to macro my 20 gates is considerably more difficult. Maybe it is easy for you because you've already trained to that point. It is not so for most players. Same way ALL pros have already trained to be able to queue units from all their gates in a mere second. The only thing limiting them then is MENTAL ability like you pointed out. Disingenous argument. Having to GO BACK TO YOUR BASE when performing as difficult micro as the pros do against as tough opponents will ALWAYS be a huge factor no matter how much you train. Its not just finger patterns at that point, you will HAVE to consciously decide to go back to macro. Which is why even pros have idle scvs and production facilities in late game. Yellow was constantly ridiculed for having to go back to his own hatcheries to macro. And you consider my puny exhibition of doing 5z6z having "trained" to that point? You should have been mocking me for my terrible multitasking and macro. Just how much do you play SC anyways? Dude, I'm not comparing this to myself, but to MOST people. That's what SC2 is targeted to, the majority. Of course I can easily pull off 2 gate macro during a rush. Hold on a second, you're assuming most people can't 5z6z yet you want to implement MBS? Am I the only one who see's the problem here? From your point of view it's actually making it worse for new players if you truly believe people can't 5z6z. Yes, most people cannot do it to perfection (i.e. keeping building in production 100% of the game). That isn't a problem at all. On September 10 2007 10:09 Aphelion wrote:
The majority posts trash in the supcom forums thinking that TA > SC. If THATS who you are targeting to, your already lost. It's not a lost cause at all. I'm sure those people don't honestly believe in all those reasons. It's probably just a few major ones such as 12 unit groups and lack of MBS that ticked them off the most. Everything else they're just nitpicking at. Ok firstly, he was talking about 2gate macroing and how it's reflex to macro during that not the entire game. Secondly, it's a huge problem, this just makes it worse for the new players to get acquainted to the game. If a mid-level player can 5z with MBS 25% of the time and the new player can only 5z 10% of the time he's just going to get run over. A new player would get crushed even harder. Here's the way I see it, and I'm seeing this through your way just for the hell of it. 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10 There are many skill levels in SC but the gap between each is fairly low. The difference between 9 and 10 would be apparent but not too bad and the gap between 1 and 2 would be the same. 1-2-3-4-5 There are less skill levels in SC2 (with MBS) but the gap between each would be significantly larger. A player at skill level 1 would lose worse to a player at skill level 2 than in SC. While it does lower the gap between skill level 3 to 5. So the improvement in SC is linear in terms of levels not time while the improvement in SC2 with MBS would be great at first but slowly become flat. I don't know where this came from, random thoughts, carry on. Let's assume for a second that your theory holds true. Then tell me this. Why is narrowing the skill gap amongst lower level players a bad thing? This makes games more challenging and fun for them, since every game it's more likely that they're paired with someone else that's also close to them in terms of skill level. A group of friends can also play games between each other and have more fair games. Also you have to take into account that the maximum skill level is also raised. Instead of 1-10 in SC, I think it would become something more like 1,4,7,9,10,11 in SC2. Most skill curves are in fact structured this way.
Read his post again, his point was that skill level difference among lower level would be even greater, not less.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
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EPT
