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Last patch Blizzard promised to nerf bane HP! As usual: they changed their mind at the last moment! They always propose some good changes, but than, they always turn back...
I think reason why TvZ is so imbalanced, besides other reasons... is that banelings got +5 hp buff, which is a huge deal! Baneling is 0.5 supply and it is cost effective unit per supply! Now if you have 50 supply in banes, that's extra 500 hp that previously didn't existed!
If you have 100 supply in banes, that's extra 1000hp that never existed! They put this buff in the game, only because byun was too good at snipping banes with 16 marine drop, which no one does anymore... because you die to roach/ravager all in and since bane buff, it is not good anymore...
Having so much extra hp is big deal, because it takes so much more time to kill chunk of banes, even if you have more units shooting at them and they also explode near units and deal damage, previously that would die from distance far easier!
Now this "nerf", nerfing damage by 2 did absolutely nothing and on top of that bane speed upgrade got buff and now it research faster! If banes gonna hit chunk of marines, 2 damage does absolutely nothing, they will die from splash and even if some marines around survive with red hp, they will be finished by lings... I think this change do absolutely nothing. That's kind of change, so that Blizzard can say, they nerfed banes, but it didn't do really anything impactful as usual...
Also proof of that is, that ravager/bane beats even t3 protoss army. They are too cost efficient in combination with unit, which can break forcefields...
And siege tanks have no advantage vs banes in LOTV, siege tanks in HOTS deal same amount of damage to banes. Not that anyone would go siege tanks vs ling/bane, or mutas. You need wm/thor... Also mines got huge nerf and are skillcaped. Skilled zerg can use overseers, or split lings, but than if you unburrow, they detonated one bane. And if you do not, you will take huge friendly fire! And if you leave behind chunk of bio behind, they will send flank and surround you. That doesn't work either... Besides they hit too late, after armory... There used to be 2 base pushes with 1/1 with mines, which were great against zerg! This doesn't exist anymore...
Yet zerg is somehow massing Hydra/bane in ZvT. This is ZvP comp and it never worked in ZvT, until they buffed hydra/bane HP and hydras got also +25% speed off creep. Also for some reason cracklings got buffed in LOTV!
There are another important reasons, why Zerg is currently OP against Terran. But i feel that's enough for one post... Please do not talk about GSL, there is small game pool and not equal competition...
And this is not whine post, but balance discussion. If there is problem in the game, we should have healthy discussion so it is fixed...
User was banned for this post.
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On August 01 2020 04:19 BalanceTalk wrote:
Last patch Blizzard promised to nerf bane HP! As usual: they changed their mind at the last moment! They always propose some good changes, but than, they always turn back...
i think Blizzard flip-flops on things so often because balancing a diverse race RTS is very difficult. What seems like a good idea at first is not so good after deeper research and testing is performed.
This process of hypothesis testing makes diverse race RTS games fascinating.
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That would be true for any decent company, except Blizzard. They do only changes, which don't matter. They are afraid to change anything and that's the problem! Because changes they do have little to no impact! This bane change is pretty controversial: nerfing AOE unit for -2 dmg (-2 vs light) isn't gonna change anything. When all it takes 1 more bane to kill chunk of bio... While bane speed research time is shorter now...
They do changes like -1 dmg for adept, while damage was never the problem, but shade cooldown being refreshed almost instantly after a shade in. Or like nerfing zealot, or warprism, which were only symptoms of broken economy. Or they gonna give thor 1 armor. Changes like this will not have any meaningful impact on the game. Or buffing stim by 20 seconds. If they gonna say: they are gonna nerf bane hp buff. Than they should do it, do absolutely no other buffs and than see how it goes...
Banes and marines were very balanced in HOTS and games were very back and forth and even in my opinion... Terran got nothing in LOTV, that would require buffing banes for +5hp. Which is same like buffing marines for +5hp... That would be insane. And even cracklings got buffed in LOTV. While there is not really any other unit, which would be better against banes. These changes are unjustified! Remember when 3rax reaper was problem ? They nerfed supply depot build time from 18 to 21 and never reverted the change, even after nerfing reaper grenade!!! Same thing is with banes, they put +5hp like band fix to 16 marine drop, which is dead and never reverted it...
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Northern Ireland16358 Posts
On August 01 2020 04:50 BalanceTalk wrote:
That would be true for any decent company, except Blizzard. They do only changes, which don't matter. They are afraid to change anything and that's the problem! Because changes they do have little to no impact! This bane change is pretty controversial: nerfing AOE unit for -2 dmg (-2 vs light) isn't gonna change anything. When all it takes 1 more bane to kill chunk of bio... While bane speed research time is shorter now...
They do changes like -1 dmg for adept, while damage was never the problem, but shade cooldown being refreshed almost instantly after a shade in. Or like nerfing zealot, or warprism, which were only symptoms of broken economy. Or they gonna give thor 1 armor. Changes like this will not have any meaningful impact on the game. Or buffing stim by 20 seconds. If they gonna say: they are gonna nerf bane hp buff. Than they should do it, do absolutely no other buffs and than see how it goes...
Banes and marines were very balanced in HOTS and games were very back and forth and even in my opinion... Terran got nothing in LOTV, that would require buffing banes for +5hp. Which is same like buffing marines for +5hp... That would be insane. And even cracklings got buffed in LOTV. While there is not really any other unit, which would be better against banes. These changes are unjustified! Remember when 3rax reaper was problem ? They nerfed supply depot build time from 18 to 21 and never reverted the change, even after nerfing reaper grenade!!! Same thing is with banes, they put +5hp like band fix to 16 marine drop, which is dead and never reverted it...
Blizzard change plenty, maybe not patch to patch but cumulatively, by quite a large amount.
Legacy was borderline unrecognisable when I came back from a sizeable hiatus, for the better.
Generally though I think Blizzard have it right with letting patches settle in terms of time given, but they have it wrong with how many changes they introduce to any given patch, as you say.
Too many variables that change interactions in a matchup and make it difficult to tell what (if anything) is having the desired effect.
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No they don't. They do only changes, which don't literally matter! It is very apparent... No game didn't changed to better. HOTS was much better balanced overall, except sh... If you don't agree, than you will probably not agree with anything i said. I am not sure what league you are in, i was 5300 with terran. It is very apparent, if you played game since WoL at least in masters league... HOTS was like 20x better overall! I also read like every balance patch and what i saw... They have no clue what they are doing, this is obvious...
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TvZ is fine.
If anything the recent stats say Terran is stronger.
https://i.redd.it/xbr9zjtvega51.png
Zerg was OP because of creep spread, and that got nerfed. Also range 5 queen patch from 2010 was the worst thing that happened in SC2 history. Thanks David Kim.
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On August 01 2020 05:15 Thaniri wrote:TvZ is fine. If anything the recent stats say Terran is stronger. https://i.redd.it/xbr9zjtvega51.pngZerg was OP because of creep spread, and that got nerfed. Also range 5 queen patch from 2010 was the worst thing that happened in SC2 history. Thanks David Kim.
No it is not! Since february 2020, TvZ is below 50% http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
Again you took just top8, Solar, or soo is couple tiers lower than Maru,Inno, Ty. Game is dead and pro teams disbanded, there is not equal competition at top level. This proves literally nothing... Also statistics aren't ultimate measure of balance...
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I've watched only for half of SC2s existence and to argue that Blizz never makes bold changes is nonsense. If they are GOOD changes is an entirely different question.
Tankevacs anyone?
And dead game? Come on man. It's not 2016.
Of the top 16 in Masters Summer 8 were Terran.
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If you have to write at the end of the post that it is not a whine post, well, probably it was a whine post then.
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On August 01 2020 04:19 BalanceTalk wrote:
And this is not whine post, but balance discussion. If there is problem in the game, we should have healthy discussion so it is fixed...
On August 01 2020 05:11 BalanceTalk wrote:
They have no clue what they are doing, this is obvious...
On August 01 2020 05:17 BalanceTalk wrote:
Game is dead
On August 01 2020 05:17 BalanceTalk wrote:
Also statistics aren't ultimate measure of balance
<thinking emoji>
From your aligulac link:
feb 2020: 49.76
march 2020: 49.75
april 2020: 49.93
may 2020: 49.84
june 2020: 48.96
Looks pretty reasonable to me.
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Eh, I get where you're coming from but I think it's a little reductionist to say that the baneling change is the reason why TvZ is imbalanced, if it even is. Also I don't really get the point of the anecdotes on builds not being viable because of ByuN's baneling snipes etc., especially when ling+queen has been the way to defend against 2-1-1 for a while now.
You do have a point in that the changes are maybe not the right call, but I think the problem has its root in the fundamental design of the unit itself. Echoing a point Artosis makes a lot is that it's too much of a yes/no unit: either it shuts down a push completely or they clump up and die to the storms/mines/tank volleys etc. Even from a spectator standpoint I think the baneling makes things interesting if someone does burrow traps, otherwise not really. I don't know maybe this is a completely pointless post since I don't know how you would go about fixing this unit but I'm glad Blizzard is doing something to address the "issue".
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Northern Ireland16358 Posts
On August 01 2020 05:11 BalanceTalk wrote:
No they don't. They do only changes, which don't literally matter! It is very apparent... No game didn't changed to better. HOTS was much better balanced overall, except sh... If you don't agree, than you will probably not agree with anything i said. I am not sure what league you are in, i was 5300 with terran. It is very apparent, if you played game since WoL at least in masters league... HOTS was like 20x better overall! I also read like every balance patch and what i saw... They have no clue what they are doing, this is obvious...
Removing Mothership Core and replacing it with batteries.
Rather big change no? I think generally being considered as for the better and bringing more decision-making into the frame for Protoss players.
This isn’t to say every change Blizz makes is as impactful, or a good change but it’s just incorrect to say they don’t make some big changes.
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I feel like Zerg is the race that was played sub optimal for a long time, until Life showed the correct way to play it, and later of course by Serral and Reynor. I'm talking about surrounding the terran army with lings and banes from all angles and ling run-by to terran's bases. Sure there are other things, but those 2 concepts I see that Serral and Reynor do all the time in TvZ.
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Northern Ireland16358 Posts
On August 01 2020 05:32 Akio wrote:
Eh, I get where you're coming from but I think it's a little reductionist to say that the baneling change is the reason why TvZ is imbalanced, if it even is. Also I don't really get the point of the anecdotes on builds not being viable because of ByuN's baneling snipes etc., especially when ling+queen has been the way to defend against 2-1-1 for a while now.
You do have a point in that the changes are maybe not the right call, but I think the problem has its root in the fundamental design of the unit itself. Echoing a point Artosis makes a lot is that it's too much of a yes/no unit: either it shuts down a push completely or they clump up and die to the storms/mines/tank volleys etc. Even from a spectator standpoint I think the baneling makes things interesting if someone does burrow traps, otherwise not really. I don't know maybe this is a completely pointless post since I don't know how you would go about fixing this unit but I'm glad Blizzard is doing something to address the "issue".
I’m unsure either.
Since the beginning of time itself the split/baneling has been one of the more engaging micro interactions in the game, especially when armies scale up in size.
If there is a ‘problem’ it’s T and (especially P) struggling to stop the Zerg growing to a stage where it’s 50 Banelings rolling over you and there’s no amount of counter-micro you can really pull off.
Which is indeed underwhelming to watch, but sometimes the Zerg has very much earned that advantage. Sometimes it feels (especially P) if your initial pressure doesn’t work out you’re basically dead a few minutes later. Again this is earned by good Zerg play but isn’t always the most fun to watch.
In a crude sense I do feel balance is pretty decent across all the matchups, doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a desirable form of balance. PvZ being almost perpetually stuck in a push/defend the push dynamic since forever being one.
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On August 01 2020 05:43 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2020 05:32 Akio wrote:
Eh, I get where you're coming from but I think it's a little reductionist to say that the baneling change is the reason why TvZ is imbalanced, if it even is. Also I don't really get the point of the anecdotes on builds not being viable because of ByuN's baneling snipes etc., especially when ling+queen has been the way to defend against 2-1-1 for a while now.
You do have a point in that the changes are maybe not the right call, but I think the problem has its root in the fundamental design of the unit itself. Echoing a point Artosis makes a lot is that it's too much of a yes/no unit: either it shuts down a push completely or they clump up and die to the storms/mines/tank volleys etc. Even from a spectator standpoint I think the baneling makes things interesting if someone does burrow traps, otherwise not really. I don't know maybe this is a completely pointless post since I don't know how you would go about fixing this unit but I'm glad Blizzard is doing something to address the "issue". In a crude sense I do feel balance is pretty decent across all the matchups, doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a desirable form of balance. PvZ being almost perpetually stuck in a push/defend the push dynamic since forever being one.
This precisely. Winrates don't tell everything and even if they did, it wouldn't necessarily make it enjoyable. I'm just glad I don't have the burden to make the decisions to try and maneuver around all the variables.
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On August 01 2020 05:22 lechatnoir wrote:
I've watched only for half of SC2s existence and to argue that Blizz never makes bold changes is nonsense. If they are GOOD changes is an entirely different question.
Tankevacs anyone?
And dead game? Come on man. It's not 2016.
Of the top 16 in Masters Summer 8 were Terran.
That's one big patch 1 time per year and even than they do useless changes like viking hp buff or what not. Still 90% of these changes don't matter... When do you remember they did any good changes last time, which would change the way matchup is played in meaningful way? TvP is still 2 base all in every game and TvZ same: terran just tries to kill Zerg before 10 minute mark, because Zerg late game is broken... Terran used to have ravens and you could go late game, if you wanted. Now game is 1-dimensional...
Anyways i am standing my ground on this...
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On August 01 2020 05:17 BalanceTalk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2020 05:15 Thaniri wrote:TvZ is fine. If anything the recent stats say Terran is stronger. https://i.redd.it/xbr9zjtvega51.pngZerg was OP because of creep spread, and that got nerfed. Also range 5 queen patch from 2010 was the worst thing that happened in SC2 history. Thanks David Kim. Game is dead and pro teams disbanded, there is not equal competition at top level. This proves literally nothing... Also statistics aren't ultimate measure of balance...
I mean just your new account with this name disqualifies you from writing here.
If not that, then this post of yours.
Go troll somewhere else. And if you really wanna change something than start a serious post, with good research on the stuff you wanna change.
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I don't like the state of both vZ match-ups, where it's do big damage in the early game or get rolled over.
The baneling nerf was target towards PvZ because Protoss armies are mostly non-light, but if the Zerg player comfortably hits the 90 drone mark they just make infinity banelings and blow everything up anyway.
I don't see this state of affairs getting better. These super high eco styles that Zergs have been adopting seem incredibly difficult to deal with in both non-mirrors.
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On August 01 2020 05:11 BalanceTalk wrote:
No they don't. They do only changes, which don't literally matter! It is very apparent... No game didn't changed to better. HOTS was much better balanced overall, except sh... If you don't agree, than you will probably not agree with anything i said. I am not sure what league you are in, i was 5300 with terran. It is very apparent, if you played game since WoL at least in masters league... HOTS was like 20x better overall! I also read like every balance patch and what i saw... They have no clue what they are doing, this is obvious...
Lol hots was awful. The game was so slow pace and boring to watch and to play. Lotv is way better spectator and game play wise because there is actual trades going on instead of one or two big fights deciding the game.
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Yes, killing banelings seem much more difficult than a-moving them into an army.
But please note that maps have almost everything to say. If those banes need to roll up ramps, through chokes and around walls, the dynamic completely changes.
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EPT
