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Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12172 Posts
October 03 2018 00:27 GMT
#601
On October 03 2018 08:59 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 03 2018 08:29 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:21 Nebuchad wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:19 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:15 Nebuchad wrote:
Yeah, that sounds about right. Is there anything wrong with that? If you were in the opposition and you saw your side just disarm or not fight hard enough, would you be fine with that? I certainly am not.

Maybe offer up something practical? Or just be honest like GH and come out and advocate for armed revolution? There aren't many options here. The GOP is in power, so according to the law, they get to call the shots on this stuff. As Obama said, "elections have consequences." It seems like y'all on the left have real problems with losing and living with the results within the bounds of the law.


How about what I just offered? Demand an investigation that lasts until the election, and then blame the Republicans when they don't accept that. Don't demand a one week investigation that changes absolutely nothing in terms of politics and allows the Republicans to say "We've accepted all the terms the evil Democrats demanded of us, and somehow they're still opposed to our guy, aren't they terrible".

The one week demand shows that they're still attempting to compromise. Republicans don't lose anything by accepting that, it's needlessly conciliatory toward them. That's what's making the Dems look bad right now, they gave up their leverage on just the hope that a one week investigation could unearth enough, which is not likely.


xDaunt spent years complaining Republicans didn't fight hard enough and that Trump's brash and often idiotic fighting was what they needed. The last thing he wants is for Democrats to respond in kind. The shallow petty bickering they are using now is exactly the kind of resistance that emboldens Republicans, which is supported by polling data.

xDaunt also has a thing for rules as if rules can't be rigged or just trash.

The republican temerity that I bitched about is very different than what Nebu is complaining about. Before Trump, Republicans simply took it on the chin whenever Democrats peddled in slander as they are with Kavanaugh. W would say that it was beneath the dignity of the office to respond. It was the same with Romney and even McCain. And beyond that, Republicans are still terrible at actually using their power. The lack of major legislation over the past couple years is really sad.


Could you expand a little bit on what the difference is, please?
No will to live, no wish to die
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23224 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-03 00:58:41
October 03 2018 00:47 GMT
#602
On October 03 2018 09:25 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 03 2018 09:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 03 2018 09:08 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:59 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:29 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:21 Nebuchad wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:19 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:15 Nebuchad wrote:
Yeah, that sounds about right. Is there anything wrong with that? If you were in the opposition and you saw your side just disarm or not fight hard enough, would you be fine with that? I certainly am not.

Maybe offer up something practical? Or just be honest like GH and come out and advocate for armed revolution? There aren't many options here. The GOP is in power, so according to the law, they get to call the shots on this stuff. As Obama said, "elections have consequences." It seems like y'all on the left have real problems with losing and living with the results within the bounds of the law.


How about what I just offered? Demand an investigation that lasts until the election, and then blame the Republicans when they don't accept that. Don't demand a one week investigation that changes absolutely nothing in terms of politics and allows the Republicans to say "We've accepted all the terms the evil Democrats demanded of us, and somehow they're still opposed to our guy, aren't they terrible".

The one week demand shows that they're still attempting to compromise. Republicans don't lose anything by accepting that, it's needlessly conciliatory toward them. That's what's making the Dems look bad right now, they gave up their leverage on just the hope that a one week investigation could unearth enough, which is not likely.


xDaunt spent years complaining Republicans didn't fight hard enough and that Trump's brash and often idiotic fighting was what they needed. The last thing he wants is for Democrats to respond in kind. The shallow petty bickering they are using now is exactly the kind of resistance that emboldens Republicans, which is supported by polling data.

xDaunt also has a thing for rules as if rules can't be rigged or just trash.

The republican temerity that I bitched about is very different than what Nebu is complaining about. Before Trump, Republicans simply took it on the chin whenever Democrats peddled in slander as they are with Kavanaugh. W would say that it was beneath the dignity of the office to respond. It was the same with Romney and even McCain. And beyond that, Republicans are still terrible at actually using their power. The lack of major legislation over the past couple years is really sad.


The current Republican president spent years peddling that the previous president was part of a massive government wide conspiracy to cover up he wasn't actually a US citizen. Forgive me if I'm skeptical of the idea that Republicans don't want slanderous rumors circulating.

How much of the GOP was behind Trump then?

Regardless, that’s not really relevant to my point.


It's not like it stopped being part of his past when he ran for president, or that anyone in the GOP wanted to or even attempted to hold him accountable. So I don't really buy the idea that suddenly it's the worst thing Republicans have seen. It's not even as bad as the slander their own president spread.

The voters gave Trump a pass, but the establishment GOP politicians certainly didn’t. Why do you think #nevertrump gained as much traction as it did during the campaign?


#NeverTrump had nothing to do with the slanderous rumors Trump spread, it's merely the people who previously took money from Trump flipping out about him being in charge. NeverTrump was just the Republican "wait your turn" crowd mad that power wasn't heading to the person they had groomed (Bush), and businesses concerned Trump's blind selfishness would leave them in the cold.

Both groups have gotten over that pretty quickly and none of them ever tried to hold Trump accountable for the type of stuff you're saying you so strongly disapprove of Democrats doing.

The closest you'll come is when Trump viciously went after other Republicans and Republicans thinking that is too far, but you won't find any statement as remotely condemning of Trump's slanderous rumor spreading about Obama from Republicans (as you do in the Ford/Kavanaugh situation, you included) because it's not the slanderous rumors that they have the big problem with. It's who the target of them is that matters more imo.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
October 03 2018 01:34 GMT
#603
On October 03 2018 09:27 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 03 2018 08:59 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:29 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:21 Nebuchad wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:19 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:15 Nebuchad wrote:
Yeah, that sounds about right. Is there anything wrong with that? If you were in the opposition and you saw your side just disarm or not fight hard enough, would you be fine with that? I certainly am not.

Maybe offer up something practical? Or just be honest like GH and come out and advocate for armed revolution? There aren't many options here. The GOP is in power, so according to the law, they get to call the shots on this stuff. As Obama said, "elections have consequences." It seems like y'all on the left have real problems with losing and living with the results within the bounds of the law.


How about what I just offered? Demand an investigation that lasts until the election, and then blame the Republicans when they don't accept that. Don't demand a one week investigation that changes absolutely nothing in terms of politics and allows the Republicans to say "We've accepted all the terms the evil Democrats demanded of us, and somehow they're still opposed to our guy, aren't they terrible".

The one week demand shows that they're still attempting to compromise. Republicans don't lose anything by accepting that, it's needlessly conciliatory toward them. That's what's making the Dems look bad right now, they gave up their leverage on just the hope that a one week investigation could unearth enough, which is not likely.


xDaunt spent years complaining Republicans didn't fight hard enough and that Trump's brash and often idiotic fighting was what they needed. The last thing he wants is for Democrats to respond in kind. The shallow petty bickering they are using now is exactly the kind of resistance that emboldens Republicans, which is supported by polling data.

xDaunt also has a thing for rules as if rules can't be rigged or just trash.

The republican temerity that I bitched about is very different than what Nebu is complaining about. Before Trump, Republicans simply took it on the chin whenever Democrats peddled in slander as they are with Kavanaugh. W would say that it was beneath the dignity of the office to respond. It was the same with Romney and even McCain. And beyond that, Republicans are still terrible at actually using their power. The lack of major legislation over the past couple years is really sad.


Could you expand a little bit on what the difference is, please?

My complaints about the GOP stem from the GOP failing to respond to Democrat provocation and enacting conservative policy when in power. Your complaints about the Democrats stem from them not being aggressive enough in obstructing the GOP agenda even when there's very little that the Democrats can actually do within the confines of the law and regular decorum.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
October 03 2018 01:37 GMT
#604
On October 03 2018 09:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 03 2018 09:25 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 09:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 03 2018 09:08 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:59 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:29 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:21 Nebuchad wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:19 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:15 Nebuchad wrote:
Yeah, that sounds about right. Is there anything wrong with that? If you were in the opposition and you saw your side just disarm or not fight hard enough, would you be fine with that? I certainly am not.

Maybe offer up something practical? Or just be honest like GH and come out and advocate for armed revolution? There aren't many options here. The GOP is in power, so according to the law, they get to call the shots on this stuff. As Obama said, "elections have consequences." It seems like y'all on the left have real problems with losing and living with the results within the bounds of the law.


How about what I just offered? Demand an investigation that lasts until the election, and then blame the Republicans when they don't accept that. Don't demand a one week investigation that changes absolutely nothing in terms of politics and allows the Republicans to say "We've accepted all the terms the evil Democrats demanded of us, and somehow they're still opposed to our guy, aren't they terrible".

The one week demand shows that they're still attempting to compromise. Republicans don't lose anything by accepting that, it's needlessly conciliatory toward them. That's what's making the Dems look bad right now, they gave up their leverage on just the hope that a one week investigation could unearth enough, which is not likely.


xDaunt spent years complaining Republicans didn't fight hard enough and that Trump's brash and often idiotic fighting was what they needed. The last thing he wants is for Democrats to respond in kind. The shallow petty bickering they are using now is exactly the kind of resistance that emboldens Republicans, which is supported by polling data.

xDaunt also has a thing for rules as if rules can't be rigged or just trash.

The republican temerity that I bitched about is very different than what Nebu is complaining about. Before Trump, Republicans simply took it on the chin whenever Democrats peddled in slander as they are with Kavanaugh. W would say that it was beneath the dignity of the office to respond. It was the same with Romney and even McCain. And beyond that, Republicans are still terrible at actually using their power. The lack of major legislation over the past couple years is really sad.


The current Republican president spent years peddling that the previous president was part of a massive government wide conspiracy to cover up he wasn't actually a US citizen. Forgive me if I'm skeptical of the idea that Republicans don't want slanderous rumors circulating.

How much of the GOP was behind Trump then?

Regardless, that’s not really relevant to my point.


It's not like it stopped being part of his past when he ran for president, or that anyone in the GOP wanted to or even attempted to hold him accountable. So I don't really buy the idea that suddenly it's the worst thing Republicans have seen. It's not even as bad as the slander their own president spread.

The voters gave Trump a pass, but the establishment GOP politicians certainly didn’t. Why do you think #nevertrump gained as much traction as it did during the campaign?


#NeverTrump had nothing to do with the slanderous rumors Trump spread, it's merely the people who previously took money from Trump flipping out about him being in charge. NeverTrump was just the Republican "wait your turn" crowd mad that power wasn't heading to the person they had groomed (Bush), and businesses concerned Trump's blind selfishness would leave them in the cold.

Both groups have gotten over that pretty quickly and none of them ever tried to hold Trump accountable for the type of stuff you're saying you so strongly disapprove of Democrats doing.

The closest you'll come is when Trump viciously went after other Republicans and Republicans thinking that is too far, but you won't find any statement as remotely condemning of Trump's slanderous rumor spreading about Obama from Republicans (as you do in the Ford/Kavanaugh situation, you included) because it's not the slanderous rumors that they have the big problem with. It's who the target of them is that matters more imo.


#Nevertrump was certainly funded by anti-Trump interests who stood to lose a lot from Trump's policies, but one of the major planks of #Nevertrumpism, if not the major plank, is that Trump is simply unfit for office due to his lack of decorum. That's a charge that included taking Trump to task for the birther thing. When I talk with my #Nevertrumper friends, their single biggest hangup with climbing on the Trump train is still the lack of decorum. They actually like most of his policies.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
October 03 2018 01:42 GMT
#605
Well, well, well, looks like someone probably did perjure herself at last week's hearing:



If I remember correctly, Ford testified that she had never coached anyone on how to beat a polygraph test when expressly asked. Grassley is already on it:

Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12172 Posts
October 03 2018 01:43 GMT
#606
On October 03 2018 10:34 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 03 2018 09:27 Nebuchad wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:59 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:29 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:21 Nebuchad wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:19 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:15 Nebuchad wrote:
Yeah, that sounds about right. Is there anything wrong with that? If you were in the opposition and you saw your side just disarm or not fight hard enough, would you be fine with that? I certainly am not.

Maybe offer up something practical? Or just be honest like GH and come out and advocate for armed revolution? There aren't many options here. The GOP is in power, so according to the law, they get to call the shots on this stuff. As Obama said, "elections have consequences." It seems like y'all on the left have real problems with losing and living with the results within the bounds of the law.


How about what I just offered? Demand an investigation that lasts until the election, and then blame the Republicans when they don't accept that. Don't demand a one week investigation that changes absolutely nothing in terms of politics and allows the Republicans to say "We've accepted all the terms the evil Democrats demanded of us, and somehow they're still opposed to our guy, aren't they terrible".

The one week demand shows that they're still attempting to compromise. Republicans don't lose anything by accepting that, it's needlessly conciliatory toward them. That's what's making the Dems look bad right now, they gave up their leverage on just the hope that a one week investigation could unearth enough, which is not likely.


xDaunt spent years complaining Republicans didn't fight hard enough and that Trump's brash and often idiotic fighting was what they needed. The last thing he wants is for Democrats to respond in kind. The shallow petty bickering they are using now is exactly the kind of resistance that emboldens Republicans, which is supported by polling data.

xDaunt also has a thing for rules as if rules can't be rigged or just trash.

The republican temerity that I bitched about is very different than what Nebu is complaining about. Before Trump, Republicans simply took it on the chin whenever Democrats peddled in slander as they are with Kavanaugh. W would say that it was beneath the dignity of the office to respond. It was the same with Romney and even McCain. And beyond that, Republicans are still terrible at actually using their power. The lack of major legislation over the past couple years is really sad.


Could you expand a little bit on what the difference is, please?

My complaints about the GOP stem from the GOP failing to respond to Democrat provocation and enacting conservative policy when in power. Your complaints about the Democrats stem from them not being aggressive enough in obstructing the GOP agenda even when there's very little that the Democrats can actually do within the confines of the law and regular decorum.


I find it extremely doubtful that you would be fine with the GOP bending over if they have a minority, I'm sorry to say. But I keep some hope that we may find out pretty soon.
No will to live, no wish to die
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
October 03 2018 01:45 GMT
#607
On October 03 2018 10:43 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 03 2018 10:34 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 09:27 Nebuchad wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:59 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:29 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:21 Nebuchad wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:19 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:15 Nebuchad wrote:
Yeah, that sounds about right. Is there anything wrong with that? If you were in the opposition and you saw your side just disarm or not fight hard enough, would you be fine with that? I certainly am not.

Maybe offer up something practical? Or just be honest like GH and come out and advocate for armed revolution? There aren't many options here. The GOP is in power, so according to the law, they get to call the shots on this stuff. As Obama said, "elections have consequences." It seems like y'all on the left have real problems with losing and living with the results within the bounds of the law.


How about what I just offered? Demand an investigation that lasts until the election, and then blame the Republicans when they don't accept that. Don't demand a one week investigation that changes absolutely nothing in terms of politics and allows the Republicans to say "We've accepted all the terms the evil Democrats demanded of us, and somehow they're still opposed to our guy, aren't they terrible".

The one week demand shows that they're still attempting to compromise. Republicans don't lose anything by accepting that, it's needlessly conciliatory toward them. That's what's making the Dems look bad right now, they gave up their leverage on just the hope that a one week investigation could unearth enough, which is not likely.


xDaunt spent years complaining Republicans didn't fight hard enough and that Trump's brash and often idiotic fighting was what they needed. The last thing he wants is for Democrats to respond in kind. The shallow petty bickering they are using now is exactly the kind of resistance that emboldens Republicans, which is supported by polling data.

xDaunt also has a thing for rules as if rules can't be rigged or just trash.

The republican temerity that I bitched about is very different than what Nebu is complaining about. Before Trump, Republicans simply took it on the chin whenever Democrats peddled in slander as they are with Kavanaugh. W would say that it was beneath the dignity of the office to respond. It was the same with Romney and even McCain. And beyond that, Republicans are still terrible at actually using their power. The lack of major legislation over the past couple years is really sad.


Could you expand a little bit on what the difference is, please?

My complaints about the GOP stem from the GOP failing to respond to Democrat provocation and enacting conservative policy when in power. Your complaints about the Democrats stem from them not being aggressive enough in obstructing the GOP agenda even when there's very little that the Democrats can actually do within the confines of the law and regular decorum.


I find it extremely doubtful that you would be fine with the GOP bending over if they have a minority, I'm sorry to say. But I keep some hope that we may find out pretty soon.

Feel free to dig through my posts back when the Democrats held all of the power before the 2010 elections. Or you can go look at my posts when Sotomayor or Kagan were appointed. You're not going to find me calling for much obstruction, and certainly nothing outside the bounds of the law, decorum, or decency.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23224 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-03 01:52:14
October 03 2018 01:51 GMT
#608
On October 03 2018 10:37 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 03 2018 09:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 03 2018 09:25 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 09:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 03 2018 09:08 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 09:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:59 xDaunt wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:29 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:21 Nebuchad wrote:
On October 03 2018 08:19 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
Maybe offer up something practical? Or just be honest like GH and come out and advocate for armed revolution? There aren't many options here. The GOP is in power, so according to the law, they get to call the shots on this stuff. As Obama said, "elections have consequences." It seems like y'all on the left have real problems with losing and living with the results within the bounds of the law.


How about what I just offered? Demand an investigation that lasts until the election, and then blame the Republicans when they don't accept that. Don't demand a one week investigation that changes absolutely nothing in terms of politics and allows the Republicans to say "We've accepted all the terms the evil Democrats demanded of us, and somehow they're still opposed to our guy, aren't they terrible".

The one week demand shows that they're still attempting to compromise. Republicans don't lose anything by accepting that, it's needlessly conciliatory toward them. That's what's making the Dems look bad right now, they gave up their leverage on just the hope that a one week investigation could unearth enough, which is not likely.


xDaunt spent years complaining Republicans didn't fight hard enough and that Trump's brash and often idiotic fighting was what they needed. The last thing he wants is for Democrats to respond in kind. The shallow petty bickering they are using now is exactly the kind of resistance that emboldens Republicans, which is supported by polling data.

xDaunt also has a thing for rules as if rules can't be rigged or just trash.

The republican temerity that I bitched about is very different than what Nebu is complaining about. Before Trump, Republicans simply took it on the chin whenever Democrats peddled in slander as they are with Kavanaugh. W would say that it was beneath the dignity of the office to respond. It was the same with Romney and even McCain. And beyond that, Republicans are still terrible at actually using their power. The lack of major legislation over the past couple years is really sad.


The current Republican president spent years peddling that the previous president was part of a massive government wide conspiracy to cover up he wasn't actually a US citizen. Forgive me if I'm skeptical of the idea that Republicans don't want slanderous rumors circulating.

How much of the GOP was behind Trump then?

Regardless, that’s not really relevant to my point.


It's not like it stopped being part of his past when he ran for president, or that anyone in the GOP wanted to or even attempted to hold him accountable. So I don't really buy the idea that suddenly it's the worst thing Republicans have seen. It's not even as bad as the slander their own president spread.

The voters gave Trump a pass, but the establishment GOP politicians certainly didn’t. Why do you think #nevertrump gained as much traction as it did during the campaign?


#NeverTrump had nothing to do with the slanderous rumors Trump spread, it's merely the people who previously took money from Trump flipping out about him being in charge. NeverTrump was just the Republican "wait your turn" crowd mad that power wasn't heading to the person they had groomed (Bush), and businesses concerned Trump's blind selfishness would leave them in the cold.

Both groups have gotten over that pretty quickly and none of them ever tried to hold Trump accountable for the type of stuff you're saying you so strongly disapprove of Democrats doing.

The closest you'll come is when Trump viciously went after other Republicans and Republicans thinking that is too far, but you won't find any statement as remotely condemning of Trump's slanderous rumor spreading about Obama from Republicans (as you do in the Ford/Kavanaugh situation, you included) because it's not the slanderous rumors that they have the big problem with. It's who the target of them is that matters more imo.


#Nevertrump was certainly funded by anti-Trump interests who stood to lose a lot from Trump's policies, but one of the major planks of #Nevertrumpism, if not the major plank, is that Trump is simply unfit for office due to his lack of decorum. That's a charge that included taking Trump to task for the birther thing. When I talk with my #Nevertrumper friends, their single biggest hangup with climbing on the Trump train is still the lack of decorum. They actually like most of his policies.


You have any quotes from major never Trumpers (Republicans obviously) excoriating him for his scandalous rumors about Democrats? Because I don't pay that much attention to them so I could have missed it otherwise I'd say my point stands.

I agree that decorum is their biggest outstanding problem with Trump though. It unmasks the inhumanity and corruption of the system more than they are comfortable with, even if it seems to be working.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-03 02:30:04
October 03 2018 02:24 GMT
#609
Well, you can start here with Bill Kristol (or here for something more contemporaneous to the campaign.) Beyond that, how could you have forgotten about the GOP presidential debates? The other candidates routinely teed off on Trump’s rhetoric.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23224 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-03 03:12:16
October 03 2018 03:06 GMT
#610
On October 03 2018 11:24 xDaunt wrote:
Well, you can start here with Bill Kristol (or here for something more contemporaneous to the campaign.) Beyond that, how could you have forgotten about the GOP presidential debates? The other candidates routinely teed off on Trump’s rhetoric.


First link isn't working for me and the second one seems a bit different, so if you could pull out the quotes and what you think his point is that might help us determine what you're talking about there. I've already acknowledged his rhetoric is their biggest problem with him, not his policy. That's why you only really see them making face saving comments, not ones actually undermining anything.

Take Flake for example, he made you hate him for handing Kavanaugh and Republicans a win. Like I said, a heel in wrestling. Not to mention Bill Kristol and Lindsey Graham still have Iraq all over them, the war Republicans aren't sure if they wanted or not or whether we won or not. So they were all over the place looking for an angle to get back onto TV for anything else.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
October 03 2018 17:33 GMT
#611
Trump's rally last night is a good example of what the GOP should be doing versus what it has done historically. During the rally, he pointed out all of the inconsistencies in Ford's testimony at the hearing. Now he's being criticized by moderates and Democrats for "mocking" Ford. That criticism is utterly insane. Since when is it out of bounds to point out the inconsistencies and other holes in an accusation? Everyone who is against Trump to this extent on the Kavanaugh issue has clearly lost their marbles. They better get their shit straight fast, because, if the recent "tightening" of the polls is any indication, voters are getting ready to punish them.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23224 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-03 22:34:13
October 03 2018 22:10 GMT
#612
On October 04 2018 02:33 xDaunt wrote:
Trump's rally last night is a good example of what the GOP should be doing versus what it has done historically. During the rally, he pointed out all of the inconsistencies in Ford's testimony at the hearing. Now he's being criticized by moderates and Democrats for "mocking" Ford. That criticism is utterly insane. Since when is it out of bounds to point out the inconsistencies and other holes in an accusation? Everyone who is against Trump to this extent on the Kavanaugh issue has clearly lost their marbles. They better get their shit straight fast, because, if the recent "tightening" of the polls is any indication, voters are getting ready to punish them.


I think pretty much everyone thinks Ford experienced a sexual assault (lots of women have), so it is messed up, even if she somehow her being 100% sure it was Kavanaugh is wrong, for Trump to target her like that. Punching down to a citizen is pathetic for a president.

It's gross really.

I understand the "what about our boys" argument, but the fact of the matter is a LOT more women are attacked/abused and their attackers go without being held accountable, whereas false accusations are far more rare.

These types of arguments "what about the boys" are completely devoid of recognition of the context. The justice system was set up by slave owning rapists, so that colors the "justice" it deals out.

Ironically the thing that stuck out to me about the whole Kavadrama was that he's going to be a SC justice when other kids had their lives ruined just for doing the same things he proudly admits as a kid.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23224 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-03 22:58:26
October 03 2018 22:47 GMT
#613
Bold proposals that give people someone to vote FOR is the only chance Democrats have but they'd rather have Manchin in their party than this guy.

Sanders to launch new plan to break up Wall Street giants, including Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) on Wednesday unveiled legislation that would place a hard cap on the size of financial institutions, a proposal that would splinter Wall Street’s biggest firms in an effort to ward off future taxpayer bailouts.

Sanders’s bill would bar financial institutions from holding assets, derivatives and other forms of borrowing worth more than 3 percent of the entire U.S. economy. That would cap their size at $584 billion in today’s dollars.

The legislation would force federal regulators to break up six different Wall Street firms — JPMorgan, Bank of America, Citigroup, Wells Fargo, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley — as well as insurance giants such as Prudential Financial and MetLife. Collectively, the targeted firms hold more than $13 trillion in assets, according to Sanders aides.

Sanders touts the plan as a way to prevent a repeat of the financial crisis of a decade ago, when banks on the edge of collapse were large enough that their failures would rock the fundamentals of the global financial system. In response, the federal government extended the banks massive loans, a move largely credited with blunting the crisis but that also gave government funding to wealthy individuals at a time when unemployment was soaring and thousands were losing their homes.

“We spent huge amounts of money bailing them out, and they are significantly larger now than they were back then,” Sanders said in an interview. “It’s time we return to that discussion, especially now for the 10th anniversary" of the crash.

“This legislation cuts to the heart of the matter, by putting a size cap on the largest highly leveraged firms. The size cap is simple, straightforward, and transparent,” said Simon Johnson, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who served as chief economist of the International Monetary Fund and supports the bill. “This measure will bring us closer to full and fair competition in the financial system, where a few megabanks currently predominate.”

Four of the six biggest banks are on average 80 percent bigger than they were when they started receiving bailout funding about a decade ago, according to Sanders aides, as many of the largest financial firms acquired distressed banks during the crisis. JPMorgan, which acquired Bear Stearns in 2008 at the urging of the federal government, has grown by about 60 percent, to $2.53 trillion, according to the company’s public disclosure forms.


www.washingtonpost.com

I'll give credit where it is due though, this is good and should get the rest of Democrats in the house on board asap.

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
October 04 2018 02:45 GMT
#614
On October 04 2018 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2018 02:33 xDaunt wrote:
Trump's rally last night is a good example of what the GOP should be doing versus what it has done historically. During the rally, he pointed out all of the inconsistencies in Ford's testimony at the hearing. Now he's being criticized by moderates and Democrats for "mocking" Ford. That criticism is utterly insane. Since when is it out of bounds to point out the inconsistencies and other holes in an accusation? Everyone who is against Trump to this extent on the Kavanaugh issue has clearly lost their marbles. They better get their shit straight fast, because, if the recent "tightening" of the polls is any indication, voters are getting ready to punish them.


I think pretty much everyone thinks Ford experienced a sexual assault (lots of women have), so it is messed up, even if she somehow her being 100% sure it was Kavanaugh is wrong, for Trump to target her like that. Punching down to a citizen is pathetic for a president.

It's gross really.

I understand the "what about our boys" argument, but the fact of the matter is a LOT more women are attacked/abused and their attackers go without being held accountable, whereas false accusations are far more rare.

These types of arguments "what about the boys" are completely devoid of recognition of the context. The justice system was set up by slave owning rapists, so that colors the "justice" it deals out.

Ironically the thing that stuck out to me about the whole Kavadrama was that he's going to be a SC justice when other kids had their lives ruined just for doing the same things he proudly admits as a kid.

Horseshit. Since when is telling the truth a bad thing? Since when should the truth be ignored for political expediency or “feelings?” The truth is that Ford’s story has huge internal credibility problems. The truth is that is there is no reason to even believe that Ford was sexually assaulted by anyone — much less by Kavanaugh — other than her own mentally ill presentation. The truth is that there is good reason to believe that Ford perjured herself on multiple points during the hearing on Friday (polygraphs, the second door, and fear of flying). All of that should be accounted for and openly discussed.
Howie_Dewitt
Profile Joined March 2014
United States1416 Posts
October 04 2018 03:12 GMT
#615
On October 04 2018 07:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
Bold proposals that give people someone to vote FOR is the only chance Democrats have but they'd rather have Manchin in their party than this guy.

Show nested quote +
Sanders to launch new plan to break up Wall Street giants, including Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) on Wednesday unveiled legislation that would place a hard cap on the size of financial institutions, a proposal that would splinter Wall Street’s biggest firms in an effort to ward off future taxpayer bailouts.

Sanders’s bill would bar financial institutions from holding assets, derivatives and other forms of borrowing worth more than 3 percent of the entire U.S. economy. That would cap their size at $584 billion in today’s dollars.

The legislation would force federal regulators to break up six different Wall Street firms — JPMorgan, Bank of America, Citigroup, Wells Fargo, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley — as well as insurance giants such as Prudential Financial and MetLife. Collectively, the targeted firms hold more than $13 trillion in assets, according to Sanders aides.

Sanders touts the plan as a way to prevent a repeat of the financial crisis of a decade ago, when banks on the edge of collapse were large enough that their failures would rock the fundamentals of the global financial system. In response, the federal government extended the banks massive loans, a move largely credited with blunting the crisis but that also gave government funding to wealthy individuals at a time when unemployment was soaring and thousands were losing their homes.

“We spent huge amounts of money bailing them out, and they are significantly larger now than they were back then,” Sanders said in an interview. “It’s time we return to that discussion, especially now for the 10th anniversary" of the crash.

“This legislation cuts to the heart of the matter, by putting a size cap on the largest highly leveraged firms. The size cap is simple, straightforward, and transparent,” said Simon Johnson, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who served as chief economist of the International Monetary Fund and supports the bill. “This measure will bring us closer to full and fair competition in the financial system, where a few megabanks currently predominate.”

Four of the six biggest banks are on average 80 percent bigger than they were when they started receiving bailout funding about a decade ago, according to Sanders aides, as many of the largest financial firms acquired distressed banks during the crisis. JPMorgan, which acquired Bear Stearns in 2008 at the urging of the federal government, has grown by about 60 percent, to $2.53 trillion, according to the company’s public disclosure forms.



I really wish Sanders was younger. He's the only person I know that pushes for the kinds of things that I want to see happen, and he's ancient.
Sisyphus had a good gig going, the disappointment was predictable. | Visions of the Country (1978) is for when you're lost.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
October 04 2018 03:33 GMT
#616
This is going to be fun. Looks like we are now getting dangerously close to discovering that the Trump/Russia collusion nonsense was the brainchild of Hillary:

Congressional investigators have confirmed that a top FBI official met with Democratic Party lawyers to talk about allegations of Donald Trump-Russia collusion weeks before the 2016 election, and before the bureau secured a search warrant targeting Trump’s campaign.

Former FBI general counsel James Baker met during the 2016 season with at least one attorney from Perkins Coie, the Democratic National Committee’s private law firm.

That’s the firm used by the DNC and Hillary Clinton’s campaign to secretly pay research firm Fusion GPS and Christopher Steele, a former British intelligence operative, to compile a dossier of uncorroborated raw intelligence alleging Trump and Moscow were colluding to hijack the presidential election.

The dossier, though mostly unverified, was then used by the FBI as the main evidence seeking a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) warrant targeting the Trump campaign in the final days of the campaign.

The revelation was confirmed both in contemporaneous evidence and testimony secured by a joint investigation by Republicans on the House Judiciary and Government Oversight committees, my source tells me.

It means the FBI had good reason to suspect the dossier was connected to the DNC’s main law firm and was the product of a Democratic opposition-research effort to defeat Trump — yet failed to disclose that information to the FISA court in October 2016, when the bureau applied for a FISA warrant to surveil Trump campaign adviser Carter Page.

“This is a bombshell that unequivocally shows the real collusion was between the FBI and Donald Trump’s opposition — the DNC, Hillary and a Trump-hating British intel officer — to hijack the election, rather than some conspiracy between Putin and Trump,” a knowledgeable source told me.


Source.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23224 Posts
October 04 2018 04:35 GMT
#617
On October 04 2018 11:45 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2018 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 04 2018 02:33 xDaunt wrote:
Trump's rally last night is a good example of what the GOP should be doing versus what it has done historically. During the rally, he pointed out all of the inconsistencies in Ford's testimony at the hearing. Now he's being criticized by moderates and Democrats for "mocking" Ford. That criticism is utterly insane. Since when is it out of bounds to point out the inconsistencies and other holes in an accusation? Everyone who is against Trump to this extent on the Kavanaugh issue has clearly lost their marbles. They better get their shit straight fast, because, if the recent "tightening" of the polls is any indication, voters are getting ready to punish them.


I think pretty much everyone thinks Ford experienced a sexual assault (lots of women have), so it is messed up, even if she somehow her being 100% sure it was Kavanaugh is wrong, for Trump to target her like that. Punching down to a citizen is pathetic for a president.

It's gross really.

I understand the "what about our boys" argument, but the fact of the matter is a LOT more women are attacked/abused and their attackers go without being held accountable, whereas false accusations are far more rare.

These types of arguments "what about the boys" are completely devoid of recognition of the context. The justice system was set up by slave owning rapists, so that colors the "justice" it deals out.

Ironically the thing that stuck out to me about the whole Kavadrama was that he's going to be a SC justice when other kids had their lives ruined just for doing the same things he proudly admits as a kid.

Horseshit. Since when is telling the truth a bad thing? Since when should the truth be ignored for political expediency or “feelings?” The truth is that Ford’s story has huge internal credibility problems. The truth is that is there is no reason to even believe that Ford was sexually assaulted by anyone — much less by Kavanaugh — other than her own mentally ill presentation. The truth is that there is good reason to believe that Ford perjured herself on multiple points during the hearing on Friday (polygraphs, the second door, and fear of flying). All of that should be accounted for and openly discussed.


Are you unfamiliar with the term "punching down" or do you just reject the concept?

I understand your perspective on Ford's culpability should she be intentionally misleading folks. Seems like this would be more of a Pence thing for several reasons anyway. Except Pence and Trump have switched traditional optics roles where Pence is the measured and cordial one with Trump being the attack dog. I don't buy into the civility argument enough to say whether that really matters much though.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23224 Posts
October 04 2018 04:36 GMT
#618
On October 04 2018 12:12 Howie_Dewitt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2018 07:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
Bold proposals that give people someone to vote FOR is the only chance Democrats have but they'd rather have Manchin in their party than this guy.

Sanders to launch new plan to break up Wall Street giants, including Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) on Wednesday unveiled legislation that would place a hard cap on the size of financial institutions, a proposal that would splinter Wall Street’s biggest firms in an effort to ward off future taxpayer bailouts.

Sanders’s bill would bar financial institutions from holding assets, derivatives and other forms of borrowing worth more than 3 percent of the entire U.S. economy. That would cap their size at $584 billion in today’s dollars.

The legislation would force federal regulators to break up six different Wall Street firms — JPMorgan, Bank of America, Citigroup, Wells Fargo, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley — as well as insurance giants such as Prudential Financial and MetLife. Collectively, the targeted firms hold more than $13 trillion in assets, according to Sanders aides.

Sanders touts the plan as a way to prevent a repeat of the financial crisis of a decade ago, when banks on the edge of collapse were large enough that their failures would rock the fundamentals of the global financial system. In response, the federal government extended the banks massive loans, a move largely credited with blunting the crisis but that also gave government funding to wealthy individuals at a time when unemployment was soaring and thousands were losing their homes.

“We spent huge amounts of money bailing them out, and they are significantly larger now than they were back then,” Sanders said in an interview. “It’s time we return to that discussion, especially now for the 10th anniversary" of the crash.

“This legislation cuts to the heart of the matter, by putting a size cap on the largest highly leveraged firms. The size cap is simple, straightforward, and transparent,” said Simon Johnson, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who served as chief economist of the International Monetary Fund and supports the bill. “This measure will bring us closer to full and fair competition in the financial system, where a few megabanks currently predominate.”

Four of the six biggest banks are on average 80 percent bigger than they were when they started receiving bailout funding about a decade ago, according to Sanders aides, as many of the largest financial firms acquired distressed banks during the crisis. JPMorgan, which acquired Bear Stearns in 2008 at the urging of the federal government, has grown by about 60 percent, to $2.53 trillion, according to the company’s public disclosure forms.



I really wish Sanders was younger. He's the only person I know that pushes for the kinds of things that I want to see happen, and he's ancient.


They did everything they could to keep any younger version of Bernie from going anywhere in the party as a deliberate strategy to fight to stay close to the center-right.

He's the only person by design and deliberate effort by the party Democrats are going to tell you you're basically a Trump supporter if you don't vote for them.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
October 04 2018 05:38 GMT
#619
On October 04 2018 13:35 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2018 11:45 xDaunt wrote:
On October 04 2018 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 04 2018 02:33 xDaunt wrote:
Trump's rally last night is a good example of what the GOP should be doing versus what it has done historically. During the rally, he pointed out all of the inconsistencies in Ford's testimony at the hearing. Now he's being criticized by moderates and Democrats for "mocking" Ford. That criticism is utterly insane. Since when is it out of bounds to point out the inconsistencies and other holes in an accusation? Everyone who is against Trump to this extent on the Kavanaugh issue has clearly lost their marbles. They better get their shit straight fast, because, if the recent "tightening" of the polls is any indication, voters are getting ready to punish them.


I think pretty much everyone thinks Ford experienced a sexual assault (lots of women have), so it is messed up, even if she somehow her being 100% sure it was Kavanaugh is wrong, for Trump to target her like that. Punching down to a citizen is pathetic for a president.

It's gross really.

I understand the "what about our boys" argument, but the fact of the matter is a LOT more women are attacked/abused and their attackers go without being held accountable, whereas false accusations are far more rare.

These types of arguments "what about the boys" are completely devoid of recognition of the context. The justice system was set up by slave owning rapists, so that colors the "justice" it deals out.

Ironically the thing that stuck out to me about the whole Kavadrama was that he's going to be a SC justice when other kids had their lives ruined just for doing the same things he proudly admits as a kid.

Horseshit. Since when is telling the truth a bad thing? Since when should the truth be ignored for political expediency or “feelings?” The truth is that Ford’s story has huge internal credibility problems. The truth is that is there is no reason to even believe that Ford was sexually assaulted by anyone — much less by Kavanaugh — other than her own mentally ill presentation. The truth is that there is good reason to believe that Ford perjured herself on multiple points during the hearing on Friday (polygraphs, the second door, and fear of flying). All of that should be accounted for and openly discussed.


Are you unfamiliar with the term "punching down" or do you just reject the concept?

I understand your perspective on Ford's culpability should she be intentionally misleading folks. Seems like this would be more of a Pence thing for several reasons anyway. Except Pence and Trump have switched traditional optics roles where Pence is the measured and cordial one with Trump being the attack dog. I don't buy into the civility argument enough to say whether that really matters much though.

On the one hand, I can definitely understand why you see this as a problem - she's probably genuinely been sexually assaulted before, and it isn't proper to make light of that. On the other... this is clearly a pretty flimsy allegation directed towards Kavanaugh, played deliberately off of the court of public opinion rather than through any of the more impartial channels of justice, and clearly abusing the existence of an automatic sympathy for the alleged victim to gain political points without ever needing to provide proof. That abuse of sympathetic sentiment is a pretty disgusting thing when it is used, and in that light I can see merit in Dauntless' "all she earned was hundreds of image macros of her face on a green cartoon frog" approach to this.

As something of a parallel case that I'm certain you have some personal thoughts on, I'd like to know what you thought of the "if I had a son, he would look like Trayvon" quip from Obama early in that Zimmerman investigation. Is that something you think was appropriate for the president to say, or was that "punching down" in the same sense of attacking a citizen for whom there was a perception, but not proof, of wrongdoing?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23224 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-04 14:31:11
October 04 2018 06:15 GMT
#620
On October 04 2018 14:38 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2018 13:35 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 04 2018 11:45 xDaunt wrote:
On October 04 2018 07:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
On October 04 2018 02:33 xDaunt wrote:
Trump's rally last night is a good example of what the GOP should be doing versus what it has done historically. During the rally, he pointed out all of the inconsistencies in Ford's testimony at the hearing. Now he's being criticized by moderates and Democrats for "mocking" Ford. That criticism is utterly insane. Since when is it out of bounds to point out the inconsistencies and other holes in an accusation? Everyone who is against Trump to this extent on the Kavanaugh issue has clearly lost their marbles. They better get their shit straight fast, because, if the recent "tightening" of the polls is any indication, voters are getting ready to punish them.


I think pretty much everyone thinks Ford experienced a sexual assault (lots of women have), so it is messed up, even if she somehow her being 100% sure it was Kavanaugh is wrong, for Trump to target her like that. Punching down to a citizen is pathetic for a president.

It's gross really.

I understand the "what about our boys" argument, but the fact of the matter is a LOT more women are attacked/abused and their attackers go without being held accountable, whereas false accusations are far more rare.

These types of arguments "what about the boys" are completely devoid of recognition of the context. The justice system was set up by slave owning rapists, so that colors the "justice" it deals out.

Ironically the thing that stuck out to me about the whole Kavadrama was that he's going to be a SC justice when other kids had their lives ruined just for doing the same things he proudly admits as a kid.

Horseshit. Since when is telling the truth a bad thing? Since when should the truth be ignored for political expediency or “feelings?” The truth is that Ford’s story has huge internal credibility problems. The truth is that is there is no reason to even believe that Ford was sexually assaulted by anyone — much less by Kavanaugh — other than her own mentally ill presentation. The truth is that there is good reason to believe that Ford perjured herself on multiple points during the hearing on Friday (polygraphs, the second door, and fear of flying). All of that should be accounted for and openly discussed.


Are you unfamiliar with the term "punching down" or do you just reject the concept?

I understand your perspective on Ford's culpability should she be intentionally misleading folks. Seems like this would be more of a Pence thing for several reasons anyway. Except Pence and Trump have switched traditional optics roles where Pence is the measured and cordial one with Trump being the attack dog. I don't buy into the civility argument enough to say whether that really matters much though.

On the one hand, I can definitely understand why you see this as a problem - she's probably genuinely been sexually assaulted before, and it isn't proper to make light of that. On the other... this is clearly a pretty flimsy allegation directed towards Kavanaugh, played deliberately off of the court of public opinion rather than through any of the more impartial channels of justice, and clearly abusing the existence of an automatic sympathy for the alleged victim to gain political points without ever needing to provide proof. That abuse of sympathetic sentiment is a pretty disgusting thing when it is used, and in that light I can see merit in Dauntless' "all she earned was hundreds of image macros of her face on a green cartoon frog" approach to this.

As something of a parallel case that I'm certain you have some personal thoughts on, I'd like to know what you thought of the "if I had a son, he would look like Trayvon" quip from Obama early in that Zimmerman investigation. Is that something you think was appropriate for the president to say, or was that "punching down" in the same sense of attacking a citizen for whom there was a perception, but not proof, of wrongdoing?


That was empathy with his family more than anything else, which had Trump kept it at empathy for Kavanaugh I don't think it would be a big problem. The closer one would be the "Cambridge police acted stupidly" which while a statement of fact (imo), probably does qualify as punching down. Though in this case (or even the Zimmerman one) the person getting punched down on and their relative position in society matters as well.

In the case of Trump specifically and punching down on a sexual assault victim for no one believing her (especially on whatever chance it did happen as she says) it's just tasteless and a little pathetic in my opinion. Just take the win and move on.

EDIT: Here's the comments you're referencing:

+ Show Spoiler +


Remember how Republicans reacted to those comments?

Now here's Trump again, imagine Obama laying out his interpretation of Zimmerman killing Trayvon like that.

"Oh he was scared so he went towards him and fought him? Then when this grown ass man lost a fight with a kid, he shot him? HmmmMMmmm?!?"

+ Show Spoiler +


Hard time believing that anyone genuinely thinks Obama's comments were clearly much worse than Trump's, though xDaunt seems to have inadvertently made that argument.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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