US Politics Mega-Blog - Page 144

On January 22 2019 03:13 Danglars wrote:

It’s a Christian school. Very traditional readings of the Bible (and, as you note, there are others) condemn the orientation and lifestyle. You might as well say you just discovered the Bible has some not-too-nice things to say about gays. Actually, that’s exactly what you’re saying. The Bible is nice and all, but running a school according to a very mainstream interpretation of its rules on living is unacceptable in your view.

I don’t see how one or two denominations reinterpreting the scriptures helps your case at all. They’re free to do as they like, despite other Christian schools saying it amounts to sanctioning immoral behavior contrary to scripture.

Also, they should of course receive no public funding for running their school as they see fit. No student should be forced to enroll in that school by the state either. I feel I have to repeat this qualifying remarks, because most of the critique would be valid if the government funded or forced attendance in these schools.

Fuck, all the anti-religious bigotry makes me wonder if you were all closet bigots before Trump became president. So much for sharing society and a country with people of different religious views (religiophobic?). “Yeah, the Bible and Christianity is wrong about gays and I don’t agree with all that it sounds discriminatory and homophobic but HOLY COW a Christian school ACTUALLY TAKES IT LITERALLY OMG!” It hasn’t been a news story for hundreds of years.

On January 22 2019 03:36 Jockmcplop wrote:


You do realize that being religious isn't an excuse for making other people's lives miserable, right? I'm not against people having any religious views as long as they aren't an excuse to actively hurt other people. Bullying and discrimination in any other non religious context are equally wrong.

There's a reason why they don't call it bigotry when you take issue with homophobia in religion. Its because homophobic people are making a choice to be an asshole. They weren't born that way.

Also I'm not advocating that the government steps in and does something about it, I'm criticizing the school for having a bullshit homophobic policy that does long term damage to society and the kids they are meant to be teaching.

Anyway this level of policing people's thoughts reminds me of scientology. Kick em out if they think something wrong.

On January 22 2019 03:51 Danglars wrote:

You do understand that tolerance and diversity requires you to understand some religions teach things you don’t like, and that’s no excuse to discriminate against them in society. I have no problem if a future Muslim candidate goes to a mosque that doesn’t have gay imams or went to a Muslim school that doesn’t admit gay teachers or students. It’s part of religious tolerance and it’s key to living in a shared society. You just don’t send your kids there, and expect retroactive tolerance for your godless beliefs.

There isn’t some excuse for intolerance here. You just have to come to accept a diverse society with plenty of religions. I don’t expect you to abandon your authoritarian ways in how you’d run society, I just expect you to soften them in time. Maybe a comparative religions course or two along the way. Maybe befriend a more traditional Muslim or Jew or Christian. I don’t ask that you join a religion, just be more tolerant of other ones besides your own.

On January 22 2019 03:51 Danglars wrote:

You do understand that tolerance and diversity requires you to understand some religions teach things you don’t like, and that’s no excuse to discriminate against them in society. I have no problem if a future Muslim candidate goes to a mosque that doesn’t have gay imams or went to a Muslim school that doesn’t admit gay teachers or students. It’s part of religious tolerance and it’s key to living in a shared society. You just don’t send your kids there, and expect retroactive tolerance for your godless beliefs.

There isn’t some excuse for intolerance here. You just have to come to accept a diverse society with plenty of religions. I don’t expect you to abandon your authoritarian ways in how you’d run society, I just expect you to soften them in time. Maybe a comparative religions course or two along the way. Maybe befriend a more traditional Muslim or Jew or Christian. I don’t ask that you join a religion, just be more tolerant of other ones besides your own.

On January 22 2019 04:02 Jockmcplop wrote:


This seems a little bit like you're playing a game.

I live in Manchester, which is a small city by US standards and its incredibly diverse. I am friends with many christians and muslims. I don't need to engage you in this game.

I will happily criticize intolerant religious beliefs, because some beliefs are just bad and negatively affect everything. Nothing positive comes from the homophobia in the Bible, and the same with this school's policy. Remember its an idea I'm against, not a person or some people. I don't hate homophobic people, I want them to stop doing homophobic things, especially when its punishing a thought crime by throwing someone out of a school where all of their friends might be.

On January 22 2019 04:14 Danglars wrote:

It does sound like you’ve baked intolerance into your worldview. You want to condemn religious education that isn’t forced upon you (Mrs. Pence’s school) for homophobia, yet can’t accept that they wrote rules in accordance with their own religion for students that promise to abide by those religious beliefs. If you think they’re enrolling students with no clue about the Bible or how they’ve interpreted it with respect to their conduct rules, then you should focus your critique on fraudulent advertising. Otherwise, grow up in your argument. In a free society, if you go into a religious school with eyes wide open, you or your parents can switch schools if that no longer is acceptable in your eyes. No little side-game where someone goes into a christian school with visible rules and signs to them, and suddenly discovers that its homophobic and stands to lose friends.

It’s a poor attempt to disguise religious bigotry under the guise of criticizing religions you disagree with. If so, you’d admit that students have other choices and it’s no “thought crime” to set and enforce standards defined by their religion. I’d have zero problems if you were an honest criticizer of religion, and only wanted schools to be upfront with their interpretations and rules to parents and students. Then you’d simply disagree with conservative Christians like Mrs. Pence instead of pretending shock that there’s not only religious people but also religious establishments.

I’m glad you have traditional religious friends. It’s just that my experience with religious bigotry is more often found in people within atheist bubbles and ignorant of mainstream religious beliefs. Part of accepting that you’re in a society of diverse views is acknowledging that a traditional Muslim or a Jew might send their kid to a school that doesn’t admit gays, and that’s in keeping with their religion. Then maybe they’d see the irony in writing a news story that religious school obeys religious teaching.

What I do know is any school can be a rough place for a gay kid. There are always bullies. It doesn’t help when the teachers are in on it. Once, in my public high school, when some boys made a cruel, homophobic joke, the teacher cut them off. He then berated them to the point I thought they would cry. I had never seen an adult stand up for people like me before. I didn’t even know that was possible. ICS made sure of that.

On January 22 2019 04:24 Jockmcplop wrote:


Yeah that all sounds nice and everything but it completely misses the specifics of this case, and I think you are talking in generalities on purpose, because once you realize that you are talking about people who are at an age where they are discovering what their sexuality is, you can't use the excuse that 'they knew what they signed up for' because people at that age are changing and its a necessary part of growing up that you ask yourself questions about who you are. This school bans that, and its wrong.
You can try and ignore this and continue talking in generalities about your false assumptions about my hidden motivations, or you can accept that I have the right to call this policy bullshit because my opinion is that it damages people.
Its not about how I feel about religious people -and honestly I feel exactly the same as I do about non religious people - its about how this school is attempting to do something that will cause innocent people suffering and its basic that schools shouldn't do that.

On January 22 2019 04:34 Danglars wrote:

How old were you when you discovered that some of the worlds largest religions have a lot to say about human sexuality? At every juncture, you want to make this about something specific instead of general about religions, yet every time it collapses to a generic “I don’t think religion’s right about young people and discovering sexuality.” If religion is actually important to people’s lives, you might have already considered that something as core as sexual relationships would be involved. So all your generalities about “innocent people suffering” is it’s another guise for your intolerance. You’ve never really properly grounded what religion means in people’s lives, and this leads to some pretty intolerant and theophobic views. I understand that you consider intolerance for homophobia to be your ticket into these pronouncements on religions that aren’t yours and choices that other people make on their schooling, but it’s still pure phobia to the core.

I’m kind of learning about how you want to subdivide religions into nice ones that you wouldn’t call homophobic or causing suffering, and mean ones that say what sexual morality is (and their attendant religious schools), but it’s a newbie’s view on human society. You’ll learn that actually committing to a free and tolerant society means religious tolerance, and that your current justifications for intolerance is authoritarian.

One last thing: religious people will say your views do cause human suffering, and damage the freedom of religious conscience, and all the rest, and I oppose privileging them just as I oppose privileging you. Their views on your destructive lifestyle and harming others should have no bearing on schools you choose to found or send your kids to. It’s not like people that claim to be non religious are unique in this; plenty of religious people also have idiotic views on running society and imposing their will on others.

On January 22 2019 04:49 Jockmcplop wrote:
I don't want to keep banging my head against this wall I've said everything I need to say on this.

I will mention though that not once have I said anything even remotely authoritarian here. I am exercising my right to criticize a belief that has led to a policy that I think is harmful, I specifically said that I'm not advocating for any policy from the authorities on this, and it looks like you are the one trying to shut down my criticism with accusations of bigotry.

Its ironic really.

On January 22 2019 05:09 Danglars wrote:

Karen Pence was attacked for being a teacher at a Christian school with common Christian school rules. When I cited the outrage-style article as part of a narrative (in my post), you defended the attack on her.

You still don’t see a problem with attacking Karen Pence? Forgive me, I’m trying to justify your comments about tolerating religious people when that clearly isn’t the case.

The school discriminates against gay students. Mrs. Pence doesn't necessarily deserve criticism but the school's policy in this regard is shit, and that goes for schools of all faiths that perpetuate homophobia against kids.

On January 22 2019 05:11 Jockmcplop wrote:


Wrong again:
This is the very first thing I wrote:



So far you have wrongly accused meof:
Religious bigotry
Authoritarianism
Defending an attack on Karen Pence

I have done none of these things, and your style of argument is noted. Attack the other guy constantly with accusations and you never have to talk about the issue.

On January 22 2019 05:46 Danglars wrote:

Upon rereading, I see you didn’t join the authors using Karen Pence to attack religious education in this country, just using its position in the news to being up your own views on how religious schools educate religious students. My post connected it to others in the same vein that you didn’t echo (bolding out the specific section). My apologies.

Similarly to you, I’m not going to continue to bang my head against the wall on your bigotry and authoritarianism. I accused you of it for the reasons outlined in my several post, and continue to think you display it in your argument and worldview. Walking in as no member of the religion, and commenting on other religious sects that behave differently, are the first things that piqued my interest, which the rest of your arguments confirmed. I continue to hope the coming years leads you to change your mind even if I can’t help.

On January 22 2019 05:59 GreenHorizons wrote:


It amazes me you can make this argument seriously knowing full well bigotry authoritarianism and religious intolerance is part and parcel of the Christian influence in this country.

On January 22 2019 05:59 GreenHorizons wrote:


It amazes me you can make this argument seriously knowing full well bigotry authoritarianism and religious intolerance is part and parcel of the Christian influence in this country.

On January 22 2019 06:34 Danglars wrote:

The absence of Christian majorities in his country loudly telling Jockmcplop how he’s causing suffering are probably part of the reason he’s lecturing others without turning red with embarrassment. Maybe it’s the old Anglican tradition of changing church to meet political realities ... icky Christian churches should just bend their literal religion away from homophobia like those good churches that do ...

On January 22 2019 06:37 GreenHorizons wrote:


What is this nonsense supposed to be suggesting?

On January 22 2019 06:39 Danglars wrote:

The church went from dictating morality to society, to secular society dictating morality to churches. It’s an oppressor/oppressed flip; I thought that was sort of your focus area on the far left?