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Personally i think the competition "wrecked" sc2. Yes the game has problems and isn't the best designed game ever, i actually agree with that.
But i think that part isn't really that important in the big picture. What's actually impactful is that games like dota2, csgo and lol exist. People simply would rather have a good time in these games with their friends than play some 1vs1 title which requires in comparison a lot of mechanics to play it somewhat decently. RTS in general is frustrating for the average "casual" gamer, you can start a game and lose in the first 2 minutes, that's not fun. In any given game you need the knowledge to react to the whole spectrum of strategies, while a moba has probably more you only need to react to 5 specific heroes (or make it 9 if you count your team as well).
It will be interesting to see what SC:R can do, in the west i think basically nothing but will it give bw a boost in korea? I doubt it, there the new, young gamers play lol or overwatch atm. SC:R will face the same problems there.
I hope i am wrong though.
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On July 26 2017 20:41 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 18:58 superjoppe wrote:
SC2 is like Smash 4. Time for a battle in SC2? Just A-move everything because the AI is smart enough to micro the army. Afraid to be edge guarded after been kicked off from the stage in Smash 4? No worry, you will automatically grab the ledge.
For me, the skill cap is way too low in SC2. A crappy person can win a game just due to build order. Reading something like this is always funny. It's so ironic that most other communies dislike sc2 because it's "to hard" while the BW community dislikes sc2 because it's "to easy".
The most ironic thing is that most of the people whining here aren't even high level in SC2 (at least high master)
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Why in the BW subforum? Not all faults with SC2 are BW related.
For me at least, here is my two cents. I played SC2 for a bit, not upon release but before HotS came out. It was fun for a little while but it was almost like a dumbed down version of Brood War - and mentally, I could not help but constantly make the comparison that was pretty much never in SC2's favor. Fundamentally, it was clear that it was not as good as the first and that it never would be. I had my fill and moved on.
Competition with Brood War was only a small part of it in the grand scheme of things though. Even though SC2 is widely considered to be the worse game, it still has an appeal that is not so trivial. There's no reason there wouldn't be space for both... but the circumstances surrounding its release created bitter animosity between the two groups. That cost SC2 a large swath of the support of old Starcraft loyalists who might have helped keep the fanbase alive. Those most dedicated players are not many, but they build the community. Frankly it seemed like our own community consisted more of folk who wanted to "make it big" in Starcraft rather than just continue with BW. Those folk leave as easily as they come and LoL/DotA/CSGO straight up dwarf RTS in general.
Couple all that with the fact that SC2 could never shake the demons of BW (match fixing etc) and it's not a surprise that the game had its run then mostly bit the bullet.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On July 26 2017 21:13 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 20:41 Charoisaur wrote:On July 26 2017 18:58 superjoppe wrote:
SC2 is like Smash 4. Time for a battle in SC2? Just A-move everything because the AI is smart enough to micro the army. Afraid to be edge guarded after been kicked off from the stage in Smash 4? No worry, you will automatically grab the ledge.
For me, the skill cap is way too low in SC2. A crappy person can win a game just due to build order. Reading something like this is always funny. It's so ironic that most other communies dislike sc2 because it's "to hard" while the BW community dislikes sc2 because it's "to easy". The most ironic thing is that most of the people whining here aren't even high level in SC2 (at least high master)
bw is harder in a lot of ways but also more forgiving for sure, in sc2 everything happens so quickly and snowballs out of control, and then there's a lot of games that are deciced in a matter of seconds during a big fight
bw feels a lot more dynamic, you start the game, there are many timings in the game in which both players fight, micro their units, try to gain edges, untill the game finally ends (small edges don't feel impossible to comeback from like they do in sc2). It doesn't usually just end after 2 massive hugely expensive armies crash into each other either.
I'm not sure if you can consider sc2 easier. It's harder to be consistent in sc2, for sure. you need insane mental strenght/concentration, whereas in sc1 if ur a good player, ur just going to beat people cuz ur mechanics are better. Practice is more rewarding in sc1 for that reason. It has a more solid foundation based on pure mechanics. You don't need to feel 100%, slept perfectly, the right nutrition, no drama with your girlfriend, so you can make that perfect split second decision in a big fight and lose the game like you would in sc2.
This is why we almost never see anyone dominate in sc2 for longer periods of time, and there is never really a clear 'best' player. Even the best player in sc2 could lose to an average player in sc2 if the early game snowballs, so long as that average player is above a certain skill treshhold.
Overall it makes BW more rewarding & less stressfull to play, for me.
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On July 26 2017 21:41 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 21:13 sabas123 wrote:On July 26 2017 20:41 Charoisaur wrote:On July 26 2017 18:58 superjoppe wrote:
SC2 is like Smash 4. Time for a battle in SC2? Just A-move everything because the AI is smart enough to micro the army. Afraid to be edge guarded after been kicked off from the stage in Smash 4? No worry, you will automatically grab the ledge.
For me, the skill cap is way too low in SC2. A crappy person can win a game just due to build order. Reading something like this is always funny. It's so ironic that most other communies dislike sc2 because it's "to hard" while the BW community dislikes sc2 because it's "to easy". The most ironic thing is that most of the people whining here aren't even high level in SC2 (at least high master) bw is harder in a lot of ways but also more forgiving for sure, in sc2 everything happens so quickly and snowballs out of control, and then there's a lot of games that are deciced in a matter of seconds during a big fight bw feels a lot more dynamic, you start the game, there are many timings in the game in which both players fight, micro their units, try to gain edges, untill the game finally ends (small edges don't feel impossible to comeback from like they do in sc2). It doesn't usually just end after 2 massive hugely expensive armies crash into each other either. I'm not sure if you can consider sc2 easier. It's harder to be consistent in sc2, for sure. you need insane mental strenght/concentration, whereas in sc1 if ur a good player, ur just going to beat people cuz ur mechanics are better. Practice is more rewarding in sc1 for that reason. It has a more solid foundation based on pure mechanics. You don't need to feel 100%, slept perfectly, the right nutrition, no drama with your girlfriend, so you can make that perfect split second decision in a big fight and lose the game like you would in sc2. This is why we almost never see anyone dominate in sc2 for longer periods of time, and there is never really a clear 'best' player. Even the best player in sc2 could lose to an average player in sc2 if the early game snowballs, so long as that average player is above a certain skill treshhold. Overall it makes BW more rewarding & less stressfull to play, for me.
I don't contest any of these points, My point is that the people either making these claims (The first person in this quote chain), or are supposedly affected by these (the hoards of players that don't play/watch sc2) will never reach the point where any of this becomes relevant.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On July 26 2017 21:58 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 21:41 Liquid`Ret wrote:On July 26 2017 21:13 sabas123 wrote:On July 26 2017 20:41 Charoisaur wrote:On July 26 2017 18:58 superjoppe wrote:
SC2 is like Smash 4. Time for a battle in SC2? Just A-move everything because the AI is smart enough to micro the army. Afraid to be edge guarded after been kicked off from the stage in Smash 4? No worry, you will automatically grab the ledge.
For me, the skill cap is way too low in SC2. A crappy person can win a game just due to build order. Reading something like this is always funny. It's so ironic that most other communies dislike sc2 because it's "to hard" while the BW community dislikes sc2 because it's "to easy". The most ironic thing is that most of the people whining here aren't even high level in SC2 (at least high master) bw is harder in a lot of ways but also more forgiving for sure, in sc2 everything happens so quickly and snowballs out of control, and then there's a lot of games that are deciced in a matter of seconds during a big fight bw feels a lot more dynamic, you start the game, there are many timings in the game in which both players fight, micro their units, try to gain edges, untill the game finally ends (small edges don't feel impossible to comeback from like they do in sc2). It doesn't usually just end after 2 massive hugely expensive armies crash into each other either. I'm not sure if you can consider sc2 easier. It's harder to be consistent in sc2, for sure. you need insane mental strenght/concentration, whereas in sc1 if ur a good player, ur just going to beat people cuz ur mechanics are better. Practice is more rewarding in sc1 for that reason. It has a more solid foundation based on pure mechanics. You don't need to feel 100%, slept perfectly, the right nutrition, no drama with your girlfriend, so you can make that perfect split second decision in a big fight and lose the game like you would in sc2. This is why we almost never see anyone dominate in sc2 for longer periods of time, and there is never really a clear 'best' player. Even the best player in sc2 could lose to an average player in sc2 if the early game snowballs, so long as that average player is above a certain skill treshhold. Overall it makes BW more rewarding & less stressfull to play, for me. I don't contest any of these points, My point is that the people either making these claims (The first person in this quote chain), or are supposedly affected by these (the hoards of players that don't play/watch sc2) will never reach the point where any of this becomes relevant.
yea sorry my reply was more to charo
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Just look at a simple carrier. U have the same unit in BroodWar and StarCraft II, but u can't micro it in SC2. THEY SUCKED OUT THE MICRO. The reason for it was most likely so certain units would definitely counter it. In BroodWar a lot of units don't have any clear counters.
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SC2 is too volatile.
The unit production mechanics make these 'waves' of production.
Zergs get waves of larvae, protosses warp right to battlefield.
Bad decisions hurt much much much more compared to BW. SC2 more unforgiving.
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The foreign scene seemed a lot bigger and more accomplished to me in Sc2. It is just Korea where Sc2 flopped pretty hard, the place where it should have been gigantic, hence why we are getting SC:R 
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On July 26 2017 21:58 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 21:41 Liquid`Ret wrote:On July 26 2017 21:13 sabas123 wrote:On July 26 2017 20:41 Charoisaur wrote:On July 26 2017 18:58 superjoppe wrote:
SC2 is like Smash 4. Time for a battle in SC2? Just A-move everything because the AI is smart enough to micro the army. Afraid to be edge guarded after been kicked off from the stage in Smash 4? No worry, you will automatically grab the ledge.
For me, the skill cap is way too low in SC2. A crappy person can win a game just due to build order. Reading something like this is always funny. It's so ironic that most other communies dislike sc2 because it's "to hard" while the BW community dislikes sc2 because it's "to easy". The most ironic thing is that most of the people whining here aren't even high level in SC2 (at least high master) bw is harder in a lot of ways but also more forgiving for sure, in sc2 everything happens so quickly and snowballs out of control, and then there's a lot of games that are deciced in a matter of seconds during a big fight bw feels a lot more dynamic, you start the game, there are many timings in the game in which both players fight, micro their units, try to gain edges, untill the game finally ends (small edges don't feel impossible to comeback from like they do in sc2). It doesn't usually just end after 2 massive hugely expensive armies crash into each other either. I'm not sure if you can consider sc2 easier. It's harder to be consistent in sc2, for sure. you need insane mental strenght/concentration, whereas in sc1 if ur a good player, ur just going to beat people cuz ur mechanics are better. Practice is more rewarding in sc1 for that reason. It has a more solid foundation based on pure mechanics. You don't need to feel 100%, slept perfectly, the right nutrition, no drama with your girlfriend, so you can make that perfect split second decision in a big fight and lose the game like you would in sc2. This is why we almost never see anyone dominate in sc2 for longer periods of time, and there is never really a clear 'best' player. Even the best player in sc2 could lose to an average player in sc2 if the early game snowballs, so long as that average player is above a certain skill treshhold. Overall it makes BW more rewarding & less stressfull to play, for me. I don't contest any of these points, My point is that the people either making these claims (The first person in this quote chain), or are supposedly affected by these (the hoards of players that don't play/watch sc2) will never reach the point where any of this becomes relevant.
Is that why we had 3 Koreans at Homestory Cup and still an Korean final? Because average player can still squeeze an win out of pros?
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As some intelligent guys said, SC2 is too volatile. And is not a problem of mechanics, but more of the pathing and units design. We don't see it on Starbow for example. SC2 could still be saved, I don't have any doubt.
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Deathball vs. deatball immediate game ending scenario.
Constant balance changes.
Stupid added & removed units.
Buffed & nerfed, removed) spells.
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shallowness of tactics due to overfluidified pathing system and lack of defender advantage / positional mechanics coupled with copious amounts of volatility is a huge root point imo, my #1 dislike with the game along with many elements of the race/unit designs (emphasis on hardcounters being one). If you make a sequel to starcraft I expect it to be at least as good as starcraft and hopefully even better, SC2 is absolutely not as good imo, overall and for quite a lot of reasons.
btw team games in SC2 are rather bad whereas in SC1 they are quite great, due in part to the volatility in SC2 which is worsened by playing in teams
success of SC2 came from it not being that bad overall despite many flaws, but also rather good 3D graphics (though I also prefer the art direction of sc1 by a very long shot, and also still prefer 2D for RTS^^) and lot of investment in communication and in its esport side, ofc capitalizing on the success of the legendary sc1
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This is the biggest copy/paste circlejerk in a while
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On July 26 2017 22:31 StarscreamG1 wrote:
As some intelligent guys said, SC2 is too volatile. And is not a problem of mechanics, but more of the pathing and units design. We don't see it on Starbow for example. SC2 could still be saved, I don't have any doubt.
I disagree I think some of the mechanics such as multiple building selection, infinite units on a single control group and smart casting needed a look at. The economic model (macro mechanics turbo boosting units into the affray) could have been toned down a touch and if I am being brutally honest Protoss in general needed a redesign (especially thinking about warp tech breaking core RTS rules and units like the Colossus aka babies first siege unit).
The unit pathing works well generally in that unit react fairly consistently and logically to commands. I wouldn't expect a game released in 2010 to play much differently in that regard tbh.
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On July 26 2017 22:46 KrOjah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 22:31 StarscreamG1 wrote:
As some intelligent guys said, SC2 is too volatile. And is not a problem of mechanics, but more of the pathing and units design. We don't see it on Starbow for example. SC2 could still be saved, I don't have any doubt. I disagree I think some of the mechanics such as multiple building selection, infinite units on a single control group and smart casting needed a look at. The unit pathing works well generally in that unit react fairly consistently and logically to commands. I wouldn't expect a game released in 2010 to play much differently in that regard tbh.
I don't disagree with that but I think there is no reason for any new game not to be able to feature both more consistent reacting of units (no bugs) and still maintain qualities of depth of micro and tactics and defender advantage etc, war3 has (most of) it... In fact that's what I would expect from a new game. Of note, in war3, I think there are less different behaviors for units I think than in bw, like for example a vulture in bw has very different mechanics from a zealot or a goon or a goliath very different stuff, that gives depth and details. In terms of how they are able to move, attack, or both @same time. It has huge consequences which are very positive overall in bw.
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On July 26 2017 21:13 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 20:41 Charoisaur wrote:On July 26 2017 18:58 superjoppe wrote:
SC2 is like Smash 4. Time for a battle in SC2? Just A-move everything because the AI is smart enough to micro the army. Afraid to be edge guarded after been kicked off from the stage in Smash 4? No worry, you will automatically grab the ledge.
For me, the skill cap is way too low in SC2. A crappy person can win a game just due to build order. Reading something like this is always funny. It's so ironic that most other communies dislike sc2 because it's "to hard" while the BW community dislikes sc2 because it's "to easy". The most ironic thing is that most of the people whining here aren't even high level in SC2 (at least high master)
its not hard to get high master in SC2 if you are good at bw... and you can tell a lot before you get there too
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For me personally:
1. Zerg was incredibly boring to play with 2 forced "macro" mechanics in spreading creep and injecting larvae.
2. Balance was piss poor at the start of WoL. Getting 5 rax reapered every other game sure was fun.
3. Bnet 0.2 made me feel very lonely.
4. Bnet 0.2 didn't have a proper implementation of custom games (no way to name lobbies...).
5. Brood war's units having amazing potential to micro including mutalisks, which was not possible in sc2.
6. I did not like the unit design, the graphics, and the sound effects of mainly Zerg and Protoss.
7. Force fields were a terrible mechanic.
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On July 26 2017 18:58 superjoppe wrote:
A crappy person can win a game just due to build order.
Just no, you never played the game like me played bw and sc2 to the extreme. A crappy person will become supply blocked after 30, 40 supply, will macro bad behind his micro @ fight etc, just no dude.
If both are equal in skill this would be a different topic.
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In my opinion sc2 had issues but LotV is the best game sc2 ever was. It works very well in 1v1 and decent in teamgames. Nothing "wrecked" sc2 but the number of people that like to play hardcore 1v1 games is limited.
The important question is what do we need to change? The answer is probably nothing about the game.
Coop showed that rts in itself isnt the problem, a lot of people enjoy it every day.
I think teamgames in sc2 (2v2, 3v3 and 4v4) is the next logical step to increase the number of players. The games are a lot more forgiving than 1v1 because you have allies to rely on. And people dont have to play alone but can have fun with their friends.
Btw. it really didnt help that a lot of 1v1 players shit-talked teamgames in the past.
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EPT
