On July 30 2017 18:42 KungKras wrote:I never stopped loving RTS games. Somehow it really rubs me the wrong way to be told that I've gotten bored of the basic gameplay when I still play and love the old games, and when I would buy and play a new one to death if a good one came out.
Please try to look past your own narcissism. This isn't about you or even people on this forum.
You think you're some kind of special snowflake who enjoys RTSes while posting on TL.net? We all do. This is about the bigger picture.
Different people do different things and not everyone can play rts games. Maybe relatively few people play them now, but there are also a lot of new kinds of games that never existed before. Story-driven indie puzzle games and all those things you couldn't do in 95
Making things easier: 1. Automining 2. Start with 12 harvesters 3. Clumping AI 4. Ability to grab more than 12 units at a time 5. Making units for one purpose or hard counters 6. (To go along with last point) Making units just for harass in mind makes them one dimensional 7. Making units that just sit there without good purpose for hold-command 8. Lazy design for "cool factor", i.e. Colossus, Marauders, Roach 9. Added mechanics: Warp in, Queen (with the new abilities), Mule, no high ground advantage 10. More unit complaints: Medivacs, Swarm hosts, Banelings, Warp Prism, Reaper, Marines, Window Mine
These may just be preference, but a lot of it is lazy design. With all this said, I still play SC2, just so much annoys me about it, I don't take it seriously. Which I guess is why I never care about ladder in the game so never get ladder nerves. BW had many great design choices comparatively. Really quick: multiple usage for units, each races feels powerful to each other, making multiple choices viable, movement of units, slower gameplay allows for better decision making, etc.
I grew up, got a lot older and didn't have the APM required to play SC2 anymore. I stopped playing, watching SC2 was kinda boring so i stopped that too. SC2 was the same 20 korean players play each other every other weekend.. meh.
On July 30 2017 22:26 Doso wrote: I grew up, got a lot older and didn't have the APM required to play SC2 anymore. I stopped playing, watching SC2 was kinda boring so i stopped that too. SC2 was the same 20 korean players play each other every other weekend.. meh.
The dominance of the Koreans is actually a major reason why the pro-scene has fallen apart. I remember the korean pvpvp in the first WCS, it is just difficult to get excited about that.
Also, remember that SC2 outsold WC3 with 3 million copies, and has been a much more succesful e-sport than any other previous blizzard title. The BW scene was big in Korea, but SC2 dwarfed it internationally, counting players, audience, price money and whatever. Sc2 has done, and still does pretty well. The one weak, pizzeling point is how HotS and LotV has sold compared to the first game, but it could be due to market changes.
On July 30 2017 18:42 KungKras wrote: Everyone DOES suck at making RTS games. Games like BW and AoE2 and especially WC3 remained crazy popular even when the genre declined. I've no idea if it has to do with the jump to 3D graphics or with EA draining the blood of Westwood and Ensemble making AoE3 then being closed.
Everyone doesn't all of a sudden get bad at some activity.
take a hard look at the RTS games made from 1982 to 1995. A lot of them had major, major flaws and the genre grew any way. Same thing happens in other genres. The initial games of a new genre are crap, but the game mechanics are so cool and the on screen action is never-before-seen. The consumer can't get enough of it. So even though Space Invanders and Pacman are objectively totally fucking crap. the genre grows any way. and even though Galaga and Ms. Pacman are way better games ... the genre declines as it ages... even though Galaga >> Space Invaders and Ms. Pacman >> Pacman the Gallery Shooter and the Dot-Eating-Maze-Game genres died while its best games were out there to be played.
furthermore , demand is also watered down. when your typical mainstream video game player wanted to watch hundreds of fighting units on scream independently controlled and all trying to kill each other.. the only place they could go was the DESKTOP PC. There was no big army fights on your Palm Pilot. There were no giant team fighting games because you couldn't get low latency 10 player games going. Improving technology cut into the demand for PC RTS games with intricate micro because the mainstream guy wants the 100s of units fighitng and the chaos and the screaming. They care a lot less for all the micro tactics that require daily practice. However, in the 1990s there was no alternative. Now, alternatives on your smartphone, tablet and PC are everywhere and demand is watered down because of it.
Improving technology was a big factor in RTS's demise. Not a bunch of people in dev studios saying "hey i think we'll all simultaneously make lousy games so all the RTS studios can go broke and we can all lose our jobs". "we love being unemployed".
SC2 is a way better RTS game than 95%+ of the games made in the history of the genre and its suffering the same fate as Ms. Pacman and Galaga. Like, MsPacman and Galaga... SC2 is a game that is behind the times.
DISCLAIMER: i love RTS games. i watched IEM Shanghai with my clanmates last night at 1 of those 24/7 LAN Cafes. We had fun but we all realize we are the last dinosaurs left alive.
On July 30 2017 22:26 Doso wrote: I grew up, got a lot older and didn't have the APM required to play SC2 anymore. I stopped playing, watching SC2 was kinda boring so i stopped that too. SC2 was the same 20 korean players play each other every other weekend.. meh.
The dominance of the Koreans is actually a major reason why the pro-scene has fallen apart. I remember the korean pvpvp in the first WCS, it is just difficult to get excited about that.
Also, remember that SC2 outsold WC3 with 3 million copies, and has been a much more succesful e-sport than any other previous blizzard title. The BW scene was big in Korea, but SC2 dwarfed it internationally, counting players, audience, price money and whatever. Sc2 has done, and still does pretty well. The one weak, pizzeling point is how HotS and LotV has sold compared to the first game, but it could be due to market changes.
It is because even the SC2 internationally is smaller than BW Korea was, the prize money now is Blizz throwing it, offering support to the game so they pleased its base (when they released OW , and now that they launched BW :SR , you as a customer knows that Blizzard doesnt ditch games like they did use to do in the past, so maybe you would buy those new games), SC2 is not dead, but its only real support is Blizzard now, in less than two years the viewers are a half of what they used to be, so the declining is fast btw.
On July 30 2017 05:10 ProMeTheus112 wrote: there is a lack of good RTS coming out, possibly most developpers have limited understanding of the genre SC2 is not declining merely because the genre is declining, seriously you can't just ignore all of its flaws :/
Jimmy raynors logic is perfect. Its not the quality that matters, its the name of the genre. No one in the world is no longer eating icecream, so its the declining of icecream that is the cause and not because icecream is full of virus.
See this list right here, look how few developers are making icecream? See? Very few. The icecream they make still has virus but thats not the issue, its the decline of the icecream that is causing it.
no, people are bored of the genre's basic mechanics. so they label every RTS game as lousy and claim no one knows how to make RTS games any longer... even though.. the longer you do something the better you get at it. a genre's games get better as the genre matures.
similarly look at dot-eating-maze games. one of the worst game in the dot-eating-maze-games ever made comes out in 1980 and it breaks records everywhere. it impacts mainstream culture the way almost no game has before or since. time passes...people slowing get bored of the basic mechanics of the genre. much better dot-eating-maze games come out and they can't make a fraction of what the original record breaker made or have any cultural impact whatsoever.
you can say this same scenario with Space Invaders and hte gallery shooter genre. games got better as the genre got older. interest waned even though the games got better.
same shit with RTS... different decade.
there is a lot more to a game's success than the quality of the game.
Fortunately, ATVI is 1000X better at monetizing the RTS genre than any one else... so we still get some pretty good support from Blizzard even though the entire genre is way way beyond is "best before" date.
This is absolutely not true. Every competitive game that has been really beloved by a diehard fanbase has subsequently been alienated by a sequel that's comparatively shit. BW --> SC2. Quake 2/3 --> 4. CS 1.6 --> Source. Melee --> Brawl/Smash4. MvC2 --> MvC3. SF3 --> SF4 --> SF5. DOTA --> League (people might argue that this isn't a sequel, but at its inception, League was a blatant ripoff of DOTA).
People overcomplicate the flaws with SC2's evolution. The doom and gloom people in WoL were the most accurate. LaLush wrote about how Blizzard killed micro, like moving shot, because all anyone talked about was macro. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, but controlling your units to outmaneuver and crush your opponents is much more fun than building shit in your base. And Destiny was pretty on point about how Blizzard was fucking shit up for the casual base. At its core, SC2 is not a very fun game. It's not "too competitive" or "dead genre," it's that the game has little to offer any demographic. You want a sick, rewarding, hardcore solo game? Games of the past are much more appealing than SC2. You want something casual and fun? MOBAs or whatever else are the most popular games, so go play those. SC2 needed to do SOMETHING better. Why does no one ever talk about teams in StarCraft? Blizzard COULD have made 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 real formats with cool maps and a balance philosophy that took this into account. Blizzard COULD have had an interface that encouraged custom games and casual play more. Blizzard COULD have made a fucking sick 1v1 game so that people like Idra hadn't been so vocal that the game sucks ass.
StarCraft 2 is a casualty of mediocre and worn out game design based on a design philosophy that is completely out of touch with any potential player base. With how much hype was behind its release and how much time went into creating it, it's a pathetic product. It brings virtually nothing new to the RTS genre and takes away some of the good things that existed in it. People have had way too much faith in Blizzard. Since Diablo 2, their game design has been timid and they haven't listened to any people who give meaningfully bold and decisive feedback.
This could be seen after the announcement of SC2s release on this very forum. Countless oldschoolers, having played BW for 10+ years trying to get Blizzard to listen. Then the forums got flooded by hypekids, most of them probably have left years ago. The "BW elitist" whining started and the whole forum experience declined rapidly. I used to read TL daily and mostly not for BW-related things, needless to say I don't anymore. You also have to realize, back in the day, almost everyone online playing BW, being hardcore about it and thus creating an account on TL to keep up with the korean scene, used to be a serious geek. "There are no women online" wasn't just a meme and the atmosphere was rather "1v1 me" than "kys haHAA".
If anybody doesn't get what I'm trying to imply: The average level of intellect, education and discipline was way higher overall, even at the "casual" levels of the game. Shit, getting your internet to work on Windows95/98 was a heroic task on its own sometime. Understanding and playing one of the arguably most competitive online games is a whole different beast. Accessbility is a double-egded sword when it comes to the quality and longevity of a competitive game. Tilt it just too much towards one direction and you will get SC2, which sells great on launch because of its name and then does nothing but decline. Everyone on this forum saw it coming, when Blizzard neglected the very people who gave them all those sales and publicity, by elevating BW to the gaming olymp.
Blizzard just minimally patched BW, the only real balance change i can remember was making spawning pool cost 200 instead of 150, a justified reaction to ling all-ins being too prevalent in games. The community did everything else. Mapeditor is too limited? Let's just hack it and make it about 1000% more effective. Blizzard doesn't fix latency issues on their own servers? Here, have a tool that lets you play on fucking LAN latency. Blizzard doesn't care about botted accounts making up 90% of their own ladder rankings? Here, have a bunch of people organize leagues which essentially served as the foundation of "eSports" in its actual state.
The problem about SC2 isn't so much the game itself. It's part Blizzards philosophy up from the point they basically invented a way to print money with WoW. And it's part the community, which consists too much of newschoolers who never experienced just "being online" before the mid 2000s. Kids these days don't know the struggle of having about 1-2 valid options to play games, because your PC was too slow or your internet connection was or your parents weren't massive failures who shoved money down your throat, so you shut the fuck up while they're busy being the narcissistic generation X/babyboomer fucks they are. Availability is so high, the emotional attachment to a game just doesn't exist anymore the same way it did back then. In my youth, among the gaming crowd, you were either "CS" or "SC", people who just casually played games to kill time didn't really exist. Then came The Sims.
Back to topic, so Blizzard restricts their game being modifiable and "you", as in the typcial regdate 2010 poster, are happy with being told what to like and how to play the game. BW was flawed, people made it better. Imagine having to play LT or the other great Blizzard-made maps in official tournaments. The mapping scene in BW achieved not only making the game the longest standing competitive onlinegame, they also spawned a whole new genre with AoS. The coder scene transformed the most glaring weaknesses into some of the strongest points of the game.
Also, Dustin Browder LOL. How on earth can you hire a guy who has shit on the whole genre with taking the strategy out of RTS and make it nothing but a shiny shitshow with most gimmicky and "funny" units? Games in the 90s were made by gamers for gamers. Games nowadays get made by everyone but gamers for everyone and their mum. Fix it yourself, play the superior game in the respective genre or live with being judged as a lesser gamer.
On July 30 2017 22:26 Doso wrote: I grew up, got a lot older and didn't have the APM required to play SC2 anymore. I stopped playing, watching SC2 was kinda boring so i stopped that too. SC2 was the same 20 korean players play each other every other weekend.. meh.
The dominance of the Koreans is actually a major reason why the pro-scene has fallen apart. I remember the korean pvpvp in the first WCS, it is just difficult to get excited about that.
Also, remember that SC2 outsold WC3 with 3 million copies, and has been a much more succesful e-sport than any other previous blizzard title. The BW scene was big in Korea, but SC2 dwarfed it internationally, counting players, audience, price money and whatever. Sc2 has done, and still does pretty well. The one weak, pizzeling point is how HotS and LotV has sold compared to the first game, but it could be due to market changes.
Thanks for giving me a nice example of what I just tried to explain in way too many words with way too much emotion:
- You root for a guy you don't know, just because there's a flag other than the South-Korean one next to his name. In my eyes, this makes you more of a fan, less of a (serious) gamer, since you prefer fandom over the actual better player. BW fans did nothing but watch Koreans play each other for a decade. Yes, WCG was a thing and of course everyone rooted for players out of their homecountry, but that was once a year and foreigners were expected to lose against Koreans. Nobody ever shed a tear about that, apart from a bunch of whiners, who wanted Koreans banned from every event outside South-Korea, just so they didn't have to watch their hero get exposed by better players.
- Since 2001 BW was dominated by Koreans, I'd go as far as to say the gap was significantly wider between foreigners and koreans in BW than it is in SC2. This didn't deter interest in the other regions, it made people only try so much harder at becoming better at the game.
- Price money in SC2, from the start, largely comes from Blizzard, artificially keeping the game alive.
- Comparing sales of a computer game released in 2002 to another released in 2010 is kind of dumb. Do I really need to explain why? Also, BW was just starting to really thrive when WC3 got released, I amongst countless other people just didn't feel the need to get another RTS when you already are playing one you're happy with.
- SC2 isn't doing well mate, Just right now there are more people viewing featured BW streams than SC2 streams and that's while the biggest BW event in the last 8 years is taking place. SC2 was born dead, as it lacks a soul. Nobody will remember it 10 years from now and I'll bet you any amount, then you will still find people playing BW, even if the Remaster never came out.
- Lastly you deliberately delude yourself with "market changes" being a possible reason for SC2s expansions not selling well. Why not assume the most obvious? Most people who bought the original didn't like it and thus didn't want to spend money on it.
On July 30 2017 19:18 Garmer wrote: because sc2 named itself after the greatest of all Starcraft Broodwar
It's constantly strange how some people act as if SC2 defiled their sacred relationship with Brood War, while if anything it raised awareness and interest of it outside of Korea. Brood War never had anything similar to WCS maybe except WCG which eventually went down the drain and not because of SC2, so it's not like it was stolen anything really. I'll omit Korean situation and their KeSPA - Blizzard stuff since I don't know that much about it though. It's nice though that eventually it turned out that they are resilient in their taste and majority seems to prefer other games than SC2, which still has enough support and playerbase to be what it is now, let them have what they like. Last time I checked LotV internationally retained about 2/3 of HotS at it's peak.
Some people care too much what is in the top 5 on twitch or which game is loved the most in Korea as if this was some magic guidance to what they feel they should get into, just like what you like and stop being so hostile, I prefer RTS over any other competitive genre with 1v1 shooters on second place, and there's no competition to SC2 and BW. I just can't get into team games and yet you can't see me go to League forums and spit on it because it took the viewership from BW
it doesn't matter to me that league of legends is a bigger esports, back in the early days of esports bw and CS1.6 were pioneers and esports was built from the passion of gamers who were mass gaming the best skilled games, nowadays esports is industrialized and the broadest audience games make more viewership just like blockbusters in theaters. the best games aren't always at the top of charts and the top of charts rarely are the best games, the stuff taylored to broadest audience gets there most easily and the stuff taylored to be the best quality may be fully understood only by connoisseurs
aquaSC yeah bw esports scene was attacked and diverted by blizzard while they released sc2 also they made efforts in their communication to portray bw as being the past, see morhaime even today saying nonsense like "we would like the community of our classic games to join our current communities" or whatever lol rly dont like this guy
> Bad design (ridiculously high damage, Protoss never finding a sweet spot, etc) > Dumbed down mechanics (cheese easier than ever, smart casting, unlimited unit groups) > BNet 2.0, unforgivable. > Blizzard not ever truly listening to the warnings they were given by potent members of the community, who rightfully demanded a complete overhaul of the game and only got silly tweaks. > Being so incredibly inferior to BW. > RTS having become a niche genre, way too hard for the average post-1995 born gamer who wants something easier to learn and more casual.
On July 30 2017 19:18 Garmer wrote: because sc2 named itself after the greatest of all Starcraft Broodwar
It's constantly strange how some people act as if SC2 defiled their sacred relationship with Brood War, while if anything it raised awareness and interest of it outside of Korea. Brood War never had anything similar to WCS maybe except WCG which eventually went down the drain and not because of SC2, so it's not like it was stolen anything really. I'll omit Korean situation and their KeSPA - Blizzard stuff since I don't know that much about it though. It's nice though that eventually it turned out that they are resilient in their taste and majority seems to prefer other games than SC2, which still has enough support and playerbase to be what it is now, let them have what they like. Last time I checked LotV internationally retained about 2/3 of HotS at it's peak.
Some people care too much what is in the top 5 on twitch or which game is loved the most in Korea as if this was some magic guidance to what they feel they should get into, just like what you like and stop being so hostile, I prefer RTS over any other competitive genre with 1v1 shooters on second place, and there's no competition to SC2 and BW. I just can't get into team games and yet you can't see me go to League forums and spit on it because it took the viewership from BW
You sir are banging your head against the wall.. these ppl will use SC2 killed (insert anything BW related) as an excuse for anything... it is like trying to explain to mentally ill guy that moon is not mady from gummy bears... it's sad but true...
Honestly the best punishment for this elitism would be hard region lock for BW to only Korea and than have fun trying to figure out the VPN =))
On July 30 2017 19:18 Garmer wrote: because sc2 named itself after the greatest of all Starcraft Broodwar
It's constantly strange how some people act as if SC2 defiled their sacred relationship with Brood War, while if anything it raised awareness and interest of it outside of Korea. Brood War never had anything similar to WCS maybe except WCG which eventually went down the drain and not because of SC2, so it's not like it was stolen anything really. I'll omit Korean situation and their KeSPA - Blizzard stuff since I don't know that much about it though. It's nice though that eventually it turned out that they are resilient in their taste and majority seems to prefer other games than SC2, which still has enough support and playerbase to be what it is now, let them have what they like. Last time I checked LotV internationally retained about 2/3 of HotS at it's peak.
Some people care too much what is in the top 5 on twitch or which game is loved the most in Korea as if this was some magic guidance to what they feel they should get into, just like what you like and stop being so hostile, I prefer RTS over any other competitive genre with 1v1 shooters on second place, and there's no competition to SC2 and BW. I just can't get into team games and yet you can't see me go to League forums and spit on it because it took the viewership from BW
You sir are banging your head against the wall.. these ppl will use SC2 killed (insert anything BW related) as an excuse for anything... it is like trying to explain to mentally ill guy that moon is not mady from gummy bears... it's sad but true...
Honestly the best punishment for this elitism would be hard region lock for BW to only Korea and than have fun trying to figure out the VPN =))
keep your head in the sand, ignore everything that is said and insult everyone who argue and agree on smtg you wish wasn't true
On July 30 2017 05:10 ProMeTheus112 wrote: there is a lack of good RTS coming out, possibly most developpers have limited understanding of the genre SC2 is not declining merely because the genre is declining, seriously you can't just ignore all of its flaws :/
Jimmy raynors logic is perfect. Its not the quality that matters, its the name of the genre. No one in the world is no longer eating icecream, so its the declining of icecream that is the cause and not because icecream is full of virus.
See this list right here, look how few developers are making icecream? See? Very few. The icecream they make still has virus but thats not the issue, its the decline of the icecream that is causing it.
no, people are bored of the genre's basic mechanics. so they label every RTS game as lousy and claim no one knows how to make RTS games any longer... even though.. the longer you do something the better you get at it. a genre's games get better as the genre matures.
similarly look at dot-eating-maze games. one of the worst game in the dot-eating-maze-games ever made comes out in 1980 and it breaks records everywhere. it impacts mainstream culture the way almost no game has before or since. time passes...people slowing get bored of the basic mechanics of the genre. much better dot-eating-maze games come out and they can't make a fraction of what the original record breaker made or have any cultural impact whatsoever.
you can say this same scenario with Space Invaders and hte gallery shooter genre. games got better as the genre got older. interest waned even though the games got better.
same shit with RTS... different decade.
there is a lot more to a game's success than the quality of the game.
Fortunately, ATVI is 1000X better at monetizing the RTS genre than any one else... so we still get some pretty good support from Blizzard even though the entire genre is way way beyond is "best before" date.
This is absolutely not true. Every competitive game that has been really beloved by a diehard fanbase has subsequently been alienated by a sequel that's comparatively shit. BW --> SC2. Quake 2/3 --> 4. CS 1.6 --> Source. Melee --> Brawl/Smash4. MvC2 --> MvC3. SF3 --> SF4 --> SF5. DOTA --> League (people might argue that this isn't a sequel, but at its inception, League was a blatant ripoff of DOTA).
People overcomplicate the flaws with SC2's evolution. The doom and gloom people in WoL were the most accurate. LaLush wrote about how Blizzard killed micro, like moving shot, because all anyone talked about was macro. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, but controlling your units to outmaneuver and crush your opponents is much more fun than building shit in your base. And Destiny was pretty on point about how Blizzard was fucking shit up for the casual base. At its core, SC2 is not a very fun game. It's not "too competitive" or "dead genre," it's that the game has little to offer any demographic. You want a sick, rewarding, hardcore solo game? Games of the past are much more appealing than SC2. You want something casual and fun? MOBAs or whatever else are the most popular games, so go play those. SC2 needed to do SOMETHING better. Why does no one ever talk about teams in StarCraft? Blizzard COULD have made 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 real formats with cool maps and a balance philosophy that took this into account. Blizzard COULD have had an interface that encouraged custom games and casual play more. Blizzard COULD have made a fucking sick 1v1 game so that people like Idra hadn't been so vocal that the game sucks ass.
StarCraft 2 is a casualty of mediocre and worn out game design based on a design philosophy that is completely out of touch with any potential player base. With how much hype was behind its release and how much time went into creating it, it's a pathetic product. It brings virtually nothing new to the RTS genre and takes away some of the good things that existed in it. People have had way too much faith in Blizzard. Since Diablo 2, their game design has been timid and they haven't listened to any people who give meaningfully bold and decisive feedback.
This could be seen after the announcement of SC2s release on this very forum. Countless oldschoolers, having played BW for 10+ years trying to get Blizzard to listen. Then the forums got flooded by hypekids, most of them probably have left years ago. The "BW elitist" whining started and the whole forum experience declined rapidly. I used to read TL daily and mostly not for BW-related things, needless to say I don't anymore. You also have to realize, back in the day, almost everyone online playing BW, being hardcore about it and thus creating an account on TL to keep up with the korean scene, used to be a serious geek. "There are no women online" wasn't just a meme and the atmosphere was rather "1v1 me" than "kys haHAA".
If anybody doesn't get what I'm trying to imply: The average level of intellect, education and discipline was way higher overall, even at the "casual" levels of the game. Shit, getting your internet to work on Windows95/98 was a heroic task on its own sometime. Understanding and playing one of the arguably most competitive online games is a whole different beast. Accessbility is a double-egded sword when it comes to the quality and longevity of a competitive game. Tilt it just too much towards one direction and you will get SC2, which sells great on launch because of its name and then does nothing but decline. Everyone on this forum saw it coming, when Blizzard neglected the very people who gave them all those sales and publicity, by elevating BW to the gaming olymp.
Blizzard just minimally patched BW, the only real balance change i can remember was making spawning pool cost 200 instead of 150, a justified reaction to ling all-ins being too prevalent in games. The community did everything else. Mapeditor is too limited? Let's just hack it and make it about 1000% more effective. Blizzard doesn't fix latency issues on their own servers? Here, have a tool that lets you play on fucking LAN latency. Blizzard doesn't care about botted accounts making up 90% of their own ladder rankings? Here, have a bunch of people organize leagues which essentially served as the foundation of "eSports" in its actual state.
The problem about SC2 isn't so much the game itself. It's part Blizzards philosophy up from the point they basically invented a way to print money with WoW. And it's part the community, which consists too much of newschoolers who never experienced just "being online" before the mid 2000s. Kids these days don't know the struggle of having about 1-2 valid options to play games, because your PC was too slow or your internet connection was or your parents weren't massive failures who shoved money down your throat, so you shut the fuck up while they're busy being the narcissistic generation X/babyboomer fucks they are. Availability is so high, the emotional attachment to a game just doesn't exist anymore the same way it did back then. In my youth, among the gaming crowd, you were either "CS" or "SC", people who just casually played games to kill time didn't really exist. Then came The Sims.
Back to topic, so Blizzard restricts their game being modifiable and "you", as in the typcial regdate 2010 poster, are happy with being told what to like and how to play the game. BW was flawed, people made it better. Imagine having to play LT or the other great Blizzard-made maps in official tournaments. The mapping scene in BW achieved not only making the game the longest standing competitive onlinegame, they also spawned a whole new genre with AoS. The coder scene transformed the most glaring weaknesses into some of the strongest points of the game.
Also, Dustin Browder LOL. How on earth can you hire a guy who has shit on the whole genre with taking the strategy out of RTS and make it nothing but a shiny shitshow with most gimmicky and "funny" units? Games in the 90s were made by gamers for gamers. Games nowadays get made by everyone but gamers for everyone and their mum. Fix it yourself, play the superior game in the respective genre or live with being judged as a lesser gamer.
On July 30 2017 22:26 Doso wrote: I grew up, got a lot older and didn't have the APM required to play SC2 anymore. I stopped playing, watching SC2 was kinda boring so i stopped that too. SC2 was the same 20 korean players play each other every other weekend.. meh.
The dominance of the Koreans is actually a major reason why the pro-scene has fallen apart. I remember the korean pvpvp in the first WCS, it is just difficult to get excited about that.
Also, remember that SC2 outsold WC3 with 3 million copies, and has been a much more succesful e-sport than any other previous blizzard title. The BW scene was big in Korea, but SC2 dwarfed it internationally, counting players, audience, price money and whatever. Sc2 has done, and still does pretty well. The one weak, pizzeling point is how HotS and LotV has sold compared to the first game, but it could be due to market changes.
Thanks for giving me a nice example of what I just tried to explain in way too many words with way too much emotion:
- You root for a guy you don't know, just because there's a flag other than the South-Korean one next to his name. In my eyes, this makes you more of a fan, less of a (serious) gamer, since you prefer fandom over the actual better player. BW fans did nothing but watch Koreans play each other for a decade. Yes, WCG was a thing and of course everyone rooted for players out of their homecountry, but that was once a year and foreigners were expected to lose against Koreans. Nobody ever shed a tear about that, apart from a bunch of whiners, who wanted Koreans banned from every event outside South-Korea, just so they didn't have to watch their hero get exposed by better players.
- Since 2001 BW was dominated by Koreans, I'd go as far as to say the gap was significantly wider between foreigners and koreans in BW than it is in SC2. This didn't deter interest in the other regions, it made people only try so much harder at becoming better at the game.
- Price money in SC2, from the start, largely comes from Blizzard, artificially keeping the game alive.
- Comparing sales of a computer game released in 2002 to another released in 2010 is kind of dumb. Do I really need to explain why? Also, BW was just starting to really thrive when WC3 got released, I amongst countless other people just didn't feel the need to get another RTS when you already are playing one you're happy with.
- SC2 isn't doing well mate, Just right now there are more people viewing featured BW streams than SC2 streams and that's while the biggest BW event in the last 8 years is taking place. SC2 was born dead, as it lacks a soul. Nobody will remember it 10 years from now and I'll bet you any amount, then you will still find people playing BW, even if the Remaster never came out.
- Lastly you deliberately delude yourself with "market changes" being a possible reason for SC2s expansions not selling well. Why not assume the most obvious? Most people who bought the original didn't like it and thus didn't want to spend money on it.
On July 30 2017 22:26 Doso wrote: I grew up, got a lot older and didn't have the APM required to play SC2 anymore. I stopped playing, watching SC2 was kinda boring so i stopped that too. SC2 was the same 20 korean players play each other every other weekend.. meh.
The dominance of the Koreans is actually a major reason why the pro-scene has fallen apart. I remember the korean pvpvp in the first WCS, it is just difficult to get excited about that.
Also, remember that SC2 outsold WC3 with 3 million copies, and has been a much more succesful e-sport than any other previous blizzard title. The BW scene was big in Korea, but SC2 dwarfed it internationally, counting players, audience, price money and whatever. Sc2 has done, and still does pretty well. The one weak, pizzeling point is how HotS and LotV has sold compared to the first game, but it could be due to market changes.
Thats a stupid excuse. Doesnt explain why no one plays or watches it in korea then if there is a korean dominance
On July 30 2017 19:18 Garmer wrote: because sc2 named itself after the greatest of all Starcraft Broodwar
It's constantly strange how some people act as if SC2 defiled their sacred relationship with Brood War, while if anything it raised awareness and interest of it outside of Korea. Brood War never had anything similar to WCS maybe except WCG which eventually went down the drain and not because of SC2, so it's not like it was stolen anything really. I'll omit Korean situation and their KeSPA - Blizzard stuff since I don't know that much about it though. It's nice though that eventually it turned out that they are resilient in their taste and majority seems to prefer other games than SC2, which still has enough support and playerbase to be what it is now, let them have what they like. Last time I checked LotV internationally retained about 2/3 of HotS at it's peak.
Some people care too much what is in the top 5 on twitch or which game is loved the most in Korea as if this was some magic guidance to what they feel they should get into, just like what you like and stop being so hostile, I prefer RTS over any other competitive genre with 1v1 shooters on second place, and there's no competition to SC2 and BW. I just can't get into team games and yet you can't see me go to League forums and spit on it because it took the viewership from BW
You sir are banging your head against the wall.. these ppl will use SC2 killed (insert anything BW related) as an excuse for anything... it is like trying to explain to mentally ill guy that moon is not mady from gummy bears... it's sad but true...
Honestly the best punishment for this elitism would be hard region lock for BW to only Korea and than have fun trying to figure out the VPN =))
keep your head in the sand, ignore everything that is said and insult everyone who argue and agree on smtg you wish wasn't true
what do you expect. the only time i see this username around here is to shit on the bw community and spout complete illogical BS
On July 30 2017 19:18 Garmer wrote: because sc2 named itself after the greatest of all Starcraft Broodwar
It's constantly strange how some people act as if SC2 defiled their sacred relationship with Brood War, while if anything it raised awareness and interest of it outside of Korea. Brood War never had anything similar to WCS maybe except WCG which eventually went down the drain and not because of SC2, so it's not like it was stolen anything really. I'll omit Korean situation and their KeSPA - Blizzard stuff since I don't know that much about it though. It's nice though that eventually it turned out that they are resilient in their taste and majority seems to prefer other games than SC2, which still has enough support and playerbase to be what it is now, let them have what they like. Last time I checked LotV internationally retained about 2/3 of HotS at it's peak.
Some people care too much what is in the top 5 on twitch or which game is loved the most in Korea as if this was some magic guidance to what they feel they should get into, just like what you like and stop being so hostile, I prefer RTS over any other competitive genre with 1v1 shooters on second place, and there's no competition to SC2 and BW. I just can't get into team games and yet you can't see me go to League forums and spit on it because it took the viewership from BW
You sir are banging your head against the wall.. these ppl will use SC2 killed (insert anything BW related) as an excuse for anything... it is like trying to explain to mentally ill guy that moon is not mady from gummy bears... it's sad but true...
Honestly the best punishment for this elitism would be hard region lock for BW to only Korea and than have fun trying to figure out the VPN =))
keep your head in the sand, ignore everything that is said and insult everyone who argue and agree on smtg you wish wasn't true
what do you expect. the only time i see this username around here is to shit on the bw community and spout complete illogical BS
Poor guy he should be watching the streams of his beloved game instead fo shitting in these forums.
On July 30 2017 05:10 ProMeTheus112 wrote: there is a lack of good RTS coming out, possibly most developpers have limited understanding of the genre SC2 is not declining merely because the genre is declining, seriously you can't just ignore all of its flaws :/
Jimmy raynors logic is perfect. Its not the quality that matters, its the name of the genre. No one in the world is no longer eating icecream, so its the declining of icecream that is the cause and not because icecream is full of virus.
See this list right here, look how few developers are making icecream? See? Very few. The icecream they make still has virus but thats not the issue, its the decline of the icecream that is causing it.
no, people are bored of the genre's basic mechanics. so they label every RTS game as lousy and claim no one knows how to make RTS games any longer... even though.. the longer you do something the better you get at it. a genre's games get better as the genre matures.
similarly look at dot-eating-maze games. one of the worst game in the dot-eating-maze-games ever made comes out in 1980 and it breaks records everywhere. it impacts mainstream culture the way almost no game has before or since. time passes...people slowing get bored of the basic mechanics of the genre. much better dot-eating-maze games come out and they can't make a fraction of what the original record breaker made or have any cultural impact whatsoever.
you can say this same scenario with Space Invaders and hte gallery shooter genre. games got better as the genre got older. interest waned even though the games got better.
same shit with RTS... different decade.
there is a lot more to a game's success than the quality of the game.
Fortunately, ATVI is 1000X better at monetizing the RTS genre than any one else... so we still get some pretty good support from Blizzard even though the entire genre is way way beyond is "best before" date.
This is absolutely not true. Every competitive game that has been really beloved by a diehard fanbase has subsequently been alienated by a sequel that's comparatively shit. BW --> SC2. Quake 2/3 --> 4. CS 1.6 --> Source. Melee --> Brawl/Smash4. MvC2 --> MvC3. SF3 --> SF4 --> SF5. DOTA --> League (people might argue that this isn't a sequel, but at its inception, League was a blatant ripoff of DOTA).
People overcomplicate the flaws with SC2's evolution. The doom and gloom people in WoL were the most accurate. LaLush wrote about how Blizzard killed micro, like moving shot, because all anyone talked about was macro. It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, but controlling your units to outmaneuver and crush your opponents is much more fun than building shit in your base. And Destiny was pretty on point about how Blizzard was fucking shit up for the casual base. At its core, SC2 is not a very fun game. It's not "too competitive" or "dead genre," it's that the game has little to offer any demographic. You want a sick, rewarding, hardcore solo game? Games of the past are much more appealing than SC2. You want something casual and fun? MOBAs or whatever else are the most popular games, so go play those. SC2 needed to do SOMETHING better. Why does no one ever talk about teams in StarCraft? Blizzard COULD have made 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 real formats with cool maps and a balance philosophy that took this into account. Blizzard COULD have had an interface that encouraged custom games and casual play more. Blizzard COULD have made a fucking sick 1v1 game so that people like Idra hadn't been so vocal that the game sucks ass.
StarCraft 2 is a casualty of mediocre and worn out game design based on a design philosophy that is completely out of touch with any potential player base. With how much hype was behind its release and how much time went into creating it, it's a pathetic product. It brings virtually nothing new to the RTS genre and takes away some of the good things that existed in it. People have had way too much faith in Blizzard. Since Diablo 2, their game design has been timid and they haven't listened to any people who give meaningfully bold and decisive feedback.
This could be seen after the announcement of SC2s release on this very forum. Countless oldschoolers, having played BW for 10+ years trying to get Blizzard to listen. Then the forums got flooded by hypekids, most of them probably have left years ago. The "BW elitist" whining started and the whole forum experience declined rapidly. I used to read TL daily and mostly not for BW-related things, needless to say I don't anymore. You also have to realize, back in the day, almost everyone online playing BW, being hardcore about it and thus creating an account on TL to keep up with the korean scene, used to be a serious geek. "There are no women online" wasn't just a meme and the atmosphere was rather "1v1 me" than "kys haHAA".
If anybody doesn't get what I'm trying to imply: The average level of intellect, education and discipline was way higher overall, even at the "casual" levels of the game. Shit, getting your internet to work on Windows95/98 was a heroic task on its own sometime. Understanding and playing one of the arguably most competitive online games is a whole different beast. Accessbility is a double-egded sword when it comes to the quality and longevity of a competitive game. Tilt it just too much towards one direction and you will get SC2, which sells great on launch because of its name and then does nothing but decline. Everyone on this forum saw it coming, when Blizzard neglected the very people who gave them all those sales and publicity, by elevating BW to the gaming olymp.
Blizzard just minimally patched BW, the only real balance change i can remember was making spawning pool cost 200 instead of 150, a justified reaction to ling all-ins being too prevalent in games. The community did everything else. Mapeditor is too limited? Let's just hack it and make it about 1000% more effective. Blizzard doesn't fix latency issues on their own servers? Here, have a tool that lets you play on fucking LAN latency. Blizzard doesn't care about botted accounts making up 90% of their own ladder rankings? Here, have a bunch of people organize leagues which essentially served as the foundation of "eSports" in its actual state.
The problem about SC2 isn't so much the game itself. It's part Blizzards philosophy up from the point they basically invented a way to print money with WoW. And it's part the community, which consists too much of newschoolers who never experienced just "being online" before the mid 2000s. Kids these days don't know the struggle of having about 1-2 valid options to play games, because your PC was too slow or your internet connection was or your parents weren't massive failures who shoved money down your throat, so you shut the fuck up while they're busy being the narcissistic generation X/babyboomer fucks they are. Availability is so high, the emotional attachment to a game just doesn't exist anymore the same way it did back then. In my youth, among the gaming crowd, you were either "CS" or "SC", people who just casually played games to kill time didn't really exist. Then came The Sims.
Back to topic, so Blizzard restricts their game being modifiable and "you", as in the typcial regdate 2010 poster, are happy with being told what to like and how to play the game. BW was flawed, people made it better. Imagine having to play LT or the other great Blizzard-made maps in official tournaments. The mapping scene in BW achieved not only making the game the longest standing competitive onlinegame, they also spawned a whole new genre with AoS. The coder scene transformed the most glaring weaknesses into some of the strongest points of the game.
Also, Dustin Browder LOL. How on earth can you hire a guy who has shit on the whole genre with taking the strategy out of RTS and make it nothing but a shiny shitshow with most gimmicky and "funny" units? Games in the 90s were made by gamers for gamers. Games nowadays get made by everyone but gamers for everyone and their mum. Fix it yourself, play the superior game in the respective genre or live with being judged as a lesser gamer.
On July 30 2017 22:26 Doso wrote: I grew up, got a lot older and didn't have the APM required to play SC2 anymore. I stopped playing, watching SC2 was kinda boring so i stopped that too. SC2 was the same 20 korean players play each other every other weekend.. meh.
The dominance of the Koreans is actually a major reason why the pro-scene has fallen apart. I remember the korean pvpvp in the first WCS, it is just difficult to get excited about that.
Also, remember that SC2 outsold WC3 with 3 million copies, and has been a much more succesful e-sport than any other previous blizzard title. The BW scene was big in Korea, but SC2 dwarfed it internationally, counting players, audience, price money and whatever. Sc2 has done, and still does pretty well. The one weak, pizzeling point is how HotS and LotV has sold compared to the first game, but it could be due to market changes.
Thanks for giving me a nice example of what I just tried to explain in way too many words with way too much emotion:
- You root for a guy you don't know, just because there's a flag other than the South-Korean one next to his name. In my eyes, this makes you more of a fan, less of a (serious) gamer, since you prefer fandom over the actual better player. BW fans did nothing but watch Koreans play each other for a decade. Yes, WCG was a thing and of course everyone rooted for players out of their homecountry, but that was once a year and foreigners were expected to lose against Koreans. Nobody ever shed a tear about that, apart from a bunch of whiners, who wanted Koreans banned from every event outside South-Korea, just so they didn't have to watch their hero get exposed by better players.
- Since 2001 BW was dominated by Koreans, I'd go as far as to say the gap was significantly wider between foreigners and koreans in BW than it is in SC2. This didn't deter interest in the other regions, it made people only try so much harder at becoming better at the game.
- Price money in SC2, from the start, largely comes from Blizzard, artificially keeping the game alive.
- Comparing sales of a computer game released in 2002 to another released in 2010 is kind of dumb. Do I really need to explain why? Also, BW was just starting to really thrive when WC3 got released, I amongst countless other people just didn't feel the need to get another RTS when you already are playing one you're happy with.
- SC2 isn't doing well mate, Just right now there are more people viewing featured BW streams than SC2 streams and that's while the biggest BW event in the last 8 years is taking place. SC2 was born dead, as it lacks a soul. Nobody will remember it 10 years from now and I'll bet you any amount, then you will still find people playing BW, even if the Remaster never came out.
- Lastly you deliberately delude yourself with "market changes" being a possible reason for SC2s expansions not selling well. Why not assume the most obvious? Most people who bought the original didn't like it and thus didn't want to spend money on it.
This was magnificent.
[quote- You root for a guy you don't know, just because there's a flag other than the South-Korean one next to his name. In my eyes, this makes you more of a fan, less of a (serious) gamer, since you prefer fandom over the actual better player. BW fans did nothing but watch Koreans play each other for a decade. Yes, WCG was a thing and of course everyone rooted for players out of their homecountry, but that was once a year and foreigners were expected to lose against Koreans. Nobody ever shed a tear about that, apart from a bunch of whiners, who wanted Koreans banned from every event outside South-Korea, just so they didn't have to watch their hero get exposed by better players.][/quote]
So how many foreigners did really follow the Korean BW scene? That you did, does not prove anything, it was an extreme nieche, comparable to something like following Aussie-rules football. Norwegian dominance in cross-country skiing has been considered a major danger for that sport as well. You are right about Korea itself, though, but I guess Koreans are not that different from the rest of the world in terms of gaming habits.
- Comparing sales of a computer game released in 2002 to another released in 2010 is kind of dumb. Do I really need to explain why? Also, BW was just starting to really thrive when WC3 got released, I amongst countless other people just didn't feel the need to get another RTS when you already are playing one you're happy with.
Yes, ftp-titles has come in strong, but pirate-copying was as common or more in the 90s, especially since many games did not require you to be online. Minecraft and GTA 5 are recent games which have sold a lot of copies, top 4 all time both of them. There were several RTS titles selling over 3 million copies 10-20 years ago, that will probably never happen again. I feel this is relevant:
- Lastly you deliberately delude yourself with "market changes" being a possible reason for SC2s expansions not selling well. Why not assume the most obvious? Most people who bought the original didn't like it and thus didn't want to spend money on it
Nope, market changes is very much relevant. The only game after 2013 who sold well was "Pokemon sun and moon". The marked shifted greatly, to ftp micro transactions and mobile games, rather than big "one price" titles.
I agree that BW has a cleaner design, and was certainly much more ground-breaking in the genre than SC2. It might also survive longer, sort of how the very first "super mario" and "space invaders" are remembered and played more than more recent versions. However, the whole concept of the game could not possibly make it become what BW was. One of the main critisisms to the game was that it was too similar to the original, and old school in terms of style and mechanics. On the other end, BW hardcore gamers would not be happy unless they got an exact copy in 3d. They tried to make everybody happy, and did OK, and actually very well compared to any other recent RTS title.
On July 26 2017 20:39 KalWarkov wrote: The game itself is NOT the reason
shitty custom games / mapmaker no casual game modes (see #1, blizzard couldve implemented some themselves though) blizzard caring too late about community blizzard not realizing what opportunity esports is Ladder design causing major anxiety issues for many ppl MLG fucking up several times Egoistic organizations wanting short term profit, dying off eventually Young Generation mostly wanting easy games with fast results [casual games going esports for masses] Also, ppl have to realize sc2 was basically how twitch and the new esports era began. SC2 paved the way to what we have now with modern esports, and it is still a top 10 title (so "wrecked" isn't really fitting). SC2 made many mistakes that other titles could look at and not do them again.
no no no my arcade games are awesome, it must be the chip on YOUR shoulder and on the shoulders of all the other self entitled runts that spit all over mapmakers/their work that should be addressed! while you play with that,chip you ignored those games/maps/mapmakers.. and you think you got what you think you got, oblivious to the reality of the arcade.
EPT
