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I receive daily e-mails from Greg Laurie, who is like the modern day Billy Graham, since he visited my hometown (Christchurch NZ) last year. This is one I got in my inbox today, I want to know what people think of it - to what extent is what he says true?
+ Show Spoiler +"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?" - Mark 8:36-37
A while ago, I ran into a guy that I once hung out with in school. I hadn't seen him in 25 years. He called to say that he was coming to hear me speak, so we arranged to meet beforehand.
As we talked, he told me he had been married twice and was presently divorced. Then he said, "I basically drank my marriages away." He went on to explain that he had gotten into that and never stopped. He said it had ruined his life.
I told him, "You know, in the Bible, God says, 'You will seek Me and find Me. . . .' "
"You can quote your book and I will quote mine," he said. "I am in fellowship too. . . . I'm in a 12-step program."
We used to hang out and party together, but he never left that lifestyle. I left it at age 17. As I look at the course his life has taken and the course my life has taken, it is clear who really gave up the most.
There might be times as a Christian when you look at unbelievers and think, I don't know. Maybe they are having the good time and I am not. It might look like they are having fun today, but there is a price for sin. You will reap what you sow.
If you live for Christ, if you determine to do things God's way, you won't regret it. Because you won't find happiness or fulfillment through sex, drugs, or drinking. You won't find it through relationships, success, possessions, or accomplishments. You will find the happiness and fulfillment you are looking for in life through a relationship with Jesus Christ.
My opinion is this, while I greatly admire him for all the work he does, I often find his view of comparing Christian lives with non-Christian lives simplistic and not even general, because they do not represent general (as in the "majority of cases" general) facts. I believe you become a Christian because it's the right thing to do, not because it's what's best for yourself personally.
I don't intend this to be another existence of God debate - I just want to know what people think of his e-mail - do any non-Christians think it is to some extent true?
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Braavos36390 Posts
its kind of condescending, but w/e
ill just enjoy my sex, drugs, drinking, success, possessions, and accomplishments
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That last paragraph sounds really cult-ish. Anyway, I don't think anything is set in stone, Christians can have their share of "fun" and not all nonbelievers are twice divorced alcoholics.
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On April 18 2007 02:41 Hot_Bid wrote:
its kind of condescending, but w/e
ill just enjoy my sex, drugs, drinking, success, possessions, and accomplishments
I'll enjoy the same but without the drugs for health purposes.
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What're you asking again?
Is the moral of the story true? The moral of the story is that the only real lasting happiness is in knowing Jesus Christ. I don't think any non-Christians believe that's true, if they do, they're Christians.
Is the anecdote true? Could be. Could also be pure or partial bullshit. Greg Laurie might be a liar, or a truth stretcher, or a straight shooter. I have no clue.
Is anecdotal evidence useful for coming to general conclusions? It really depends on how much anecdotal evidence you use, but 1 example (as in Greg Laurie's message) is very shakey ground to base an argument on. The fact that a conclusion is based on anecdotal evidence doesn't necessarily make the conclusions you come to wrong, but you should question and test those conclusions. For example: Lets assume I've never seen or experienced or heard about ice. Then a friend of mine told me that he knew a guy that said he owned ice and his ice was cold. From this I can assume that most or all ice is cold, and I'd be right, but the evidence for my conclusion is very poor and I should try and find other sources of evidence for verification. Likewise, let's assue that I've never seen a brunette. Then a friend of mine says he knows a guy named Adolf Hitler who's a genocidal authoritarian and warmonger... and a brunette. From this I can assume that most or all brunettes are genocidal authoritarians and warmongers, but I'd be wrong.
For the record, I think Greg Laurie's message is closer to the Hitler example than the ice example.
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you have to live both lifestyles to be able to properly judge which one benefits you more.
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I for one believe that God wants us to have fun, wants us to be happy. He certainly doesnt want us to spend like 5h a day praying, especially if its just for the sake of praying. Its much better to say "thank you God for all the good things u gave me, plz guide me thru this day" each day, and then proceed to act nicely to other people, help ppl u can help.
He created this world, he wants us to enjoy it. Im pretty sure he didn put all the good things in the world as traps so as many ppl get some fun and thus go to hell.
However, abusing anything is wrong. U can get drunk with ur friends, but its wrong to drink every day coz its ruining ur body. U can have a girlfriend, perhaps even have sex before marriage if u really like her and feel its ok. But the wrong thing would be to fuck anything that walks just to satisfy the urges.
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On April 18 2007 02:39 RebelHeart wrote:
I don't intend this to be another existence of God debate - I just want to know what people think of his e-mail - do any non-Christians think it is to some extent true?
It doesn't even make any sense to me.
So no, I don't think it's true :-(
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whatever
the more i read from nutjobs like these the more i think organized religion is a bunch of bullshit
what we really need to learn to do is to be kind to other people and stop judging each other
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On April 18 2007 04:14 niteReloaded wrote:
I for one believe that God wants us to have fun, wants us to be happy. He certainly doesnt want us to spend like 5h a day praying, especially if its just for the sake of praying. Its much better to say "thank you God for all the good things u gave me, plz guide me thru this day" each day, and then proceed to act nicely to other people, help ppl u can help.
He created this world, he wants us to enjoy it. Im pretty sure he didn put all the good things in the world as traps so as many ppl get some fun and thus go to hell.
However, abusing anything is wrong. U can get drunk with ur friends, but its wrong to drink every day coz its ruining ur body. U can have a girlfriend, perhaps even have sex before marriage if u really like her and feel its ok. But the wrong thing would be to fuck anything that walks just to satisfy the urges.
I hope you don't go around calling yourself a Christian
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see that's exactly the kind of shit i'm talking about
i hope YOU don't go around calling yourself a Christian
judge not lest you be judged etc
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Vatican City State1176 Posts
On April 18 2007 08:36 XelNaga wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2007 04:14 niteReloaded wrote:
I for one believe that God wants us to have fun, wants us to be happy. He certainly doesnt want us to spend like 5h a day praying, especially if its just for the sake of praying. Its much better to say "thank you God for all the good things u gave me, plz guide me thru this day" each day, and then proceed to act nicely to other people, help ppl u can help.
He created this world, he wants us to enjoy it. Im pretty sure he didn put all the good things in the world as traps so as many ppl get some fun and thus go to hell.
However, abusing anything is wrong. U can get drunk with ur friends, but its wrong to drink every day coz its ruining ur body. U can have a girlfriend, perhaps even have sex before marriage if u really like her and feel its ok. But the wrong thing would be to fuck anything that walks just to satisfy the urges. I hope you don't go around calling yourself a Christian
why shouldn't he call himself a christian?
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On April 18 2007 08:36 XelNaga wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2007 04:14 niteReloaded wrote:
I for one believe that God wants us to have fun, wants us to be happy. He certainly doesnt want us to spend like 5h a day praying, especially if its just for the sake of praying. Its much better to say "thank you God for all the good things u gave me, plz guide me thru this day" each day, and then proceed to act nicely to other people, help ppl u can help.
He created this world, he wants us to enjoy it. Im pretty sure he didn put all the good things in the world as traps so as many ppl get some fun and thus go to hell.
However, abusing anything is wrong. U can get drunk with ur friends, but its wrong to drink every day coz its ruining ur body. U can have a girlfriend, perhaps even have sex before marriage if u really like her and feel its ok. But the wrong thing would be to fuck anything that walks just to satisfy the urges. I hope you don't go around calling yourself a Christian
that sounds like just about the healthiest view on religion you can have, whats wrong with it?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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On April 18 2007 08:37 lil.sis wrote:
see that's exactly the kind of shit i'm talking about
i hope YOU don't go around calling yourself a Christian
judge not lest you be judged etc
That's an interesting verse, mind quoting it? Well, I know where it is, in Matthew.
You familiar with 2 Timothy 3:16?
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
Interesting verse isn't it? You know why I said that? Lets recap some of what he said.
However, abusing anything is wrong. U can get drunk with ur friends, but its wrong to drink every day coz its ruining ur body.
Okay, so you think it's okay to get drunk with your friends?
Romans 13:13
Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy
Galations 5:19-21
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Uh oh.. Did those verses just condemn being drunk in any situation? Yes, they did. What bible is he reading from? Not the same one I am... Moving along.
U can have a girlfriend, perhaps even have sex before marriage if u really like her and feel its ok.
Really eh? Where did you come up with this? What did Galations 5:19-21 just say? How about..
Hebrews 13:4
Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
1 Corinthians 7:2
Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband
Mark 10:6-8
But at the beginning of creation God made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one
1 Thessalonians 4:3-5
It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God
I'm sorry to be so "judgmental", but there's a thing called "Sunday Christianity" and then there's a thing called a "personal relationship with Christ". What this kid said, at this point in time, he's a Sunday Christian. And until he gets his life right, he has no business going around saying he's a Christian (assuming that he is).
Oh, and for all you people who don't understand. I compared his behavior to scripture and called him out on it. A little different than judging him because of my person opinion.
If he's going to call himself a Christian, then he's expected to be held to Christian theology.
And for that email, it's general correct in my experience with others.
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You guys should read "The Aleph" by Jorge Luis Borges (the book, not just the short story).
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Sydney2287 Posts
[QUOTE]On April 18 2007 08:55 XelNaga wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 18 2007 08:37 lil.sis wrote:
Oh, and for all you people who don't understand. I compared his behavior to scripture and called him out on it. A little different than judging him because of my person opinion.
If he's going to call himself a Christian, then he's expected to be held to Christian theology.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry but to be a christian does not mean should have to be held to all christian theology. EDIT: To clarify, you didn't say 'all' but when you did just rip into his post line by line disputing his beliefs.
And a "personal relationship with Jesus" is by definition a personal thing, a result of which being that he should be able to choose how he keeps his religion.
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On April 18 2007 08:55 XelNaga wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2007 08:37 lil.sis wrote:
see that's exactly the kind of shit i'm talking about
i hope YOU don't go around calling yourself a Christian
judge not lest you be judged etc That's an interesting verse, mind quoting it? Well, I know where it is, in Matthew. You familiar with 2 Timothy 3:16? All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousnessInteresting verse isn't it? You know why I said that? Lets recap some of what he said. However, abusing anything is wrong. U can get drunk with ur friends, but its wrong to drink every day coz its ruining ur body.Okay, so you think it's okay to get drunk with your friends? Romans 13:13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousyGalations 5:19-21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.Uh oh.. Did those verses just condemn being drunk in any situation? Yes, they did. What bible is he reading from? Not the same one I am... Moving along. U can have a girlfriend, perhaps even have sex before marriage if u really like her and feel its ok.Really eh? Where did you come up with this? What did Galations 5:19-21 just say? How about.. Hebrews 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.1 Corinthians 7:2 Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husbandMark 10:6-8 But at the beginning of creation God made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know GodI'm sorry to be so "judgmental", but there's a thing called "Sunday Christianity" and then there's a thing called a "personal relationship with Christ". What this kid said, at this point in time, he's a Sunday Christian. And until he gets his life right, he has no business going around saying he's a Christian (assuming that he is). Oh, and for all you people who don't understand. I compared his behavior to scripture and called him out on it. A little different than judging him because of my person opinion. If he's going to call himself a Christian, then he's expected to be held to Christian theology. And for that email, it's general correct in my experience with others.
congratulations you know the bible by heart and you went to sunday school and you go to church and you know the scriptures
guess what? you're still a fucking douche that is mean to other people and generally causes more harm than good
YOU are the reason why being a christian today is synonymous with being an idiot
YOU are the reason why whenever people are approached by others trying to spread the word nobody gives it the time of day
you preach a message of arrogance, sanctimony, judgement and elitism, and anachronistic morals that are not applicable to modern society in any way!
you may be christian, but you are still a bad person
if given the choice, i would prefer meeting niteReloaded 1000 times over meeting you
brb gotta tell my sister to go sacrifice two doves at the temple for her week of uncleanliness (menstruation, it happens) (Lev 15:29)
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On April 18 2007 09:04 Bockit wrote:
I'm sorry but to be a christian does not mean you have to be held to all christian theology.
And a "personal relationship with Jesus" is by definition a personal thing, a result of which being that he should be able to choose how he keeps his religion.
You're right, I should have better defined what I said. To be a Christian means you have to hold to scriptural (biblical) teaching. Either way, what the person said wasn't holding true to scripture in any way. You can have the Jesus in your head, as you imagine him. And you can have the Jesus of the bible. And you know what? In the end, it's the Jesus of the bible you're going to have to deal with.
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