If that was to be true, nobody would give a shit about Sziky in LRM would be because he doesn't show up at all. But if we chose to be objective, I would be rather betting that 'nobody gives a shit' is a wrong assumption.
Also thanks for the input of numerous subjective opinions and broad generalizations for the players in our team. I think they are mostly one-dimensional and/or shallow. Perhaps partly correct, mostly wrong but I don't care too much. I am sorry if I have affected you by my wording and/or the place where I post which perhaps were some of the reasons I induced the sarcasm.
The basic thing I emphasize on is simple: announcing playoffs one and a half days before the playoffs equals, at least for me, to poor organisational sense, clear misstep etc. I feel I am spot on here.
I was thinking that it's pretty normal for SBWI's first league to suffer from trial-and-error type of issues. But then again, I thought that it's not a problem that is impossible to solve, if I were in their shoes. I don't want to be understood wrong. I really like SBWI and the chance I will continue to like them is very high, but the late announcement is a completely wrong deicision on various levels. Refusing to act and correct that by delaying the playoffs by a week seems nothing more but stubborn to me.
Also, there's a decent chance I might be unable to practice at all till next week too, even to be more uncomfortable for me to attend the playoffs.
On February 01 2014 00:40 LRM)TechnicS wrote: If that was to be true, nobody would give a shit about Sziky in LRM would be because he doesn't show up at all.
Don't get it the wrong way, but this sounds as if Eywa recruiting Sziky was an elaborate plan of sas to get rid of their weakest player.
On January 31 2014 19:51 mEATshEILd wrote: When the playoff starts, each team has played every other week for 14 weeks. Postponing the playoffs because some teams need more training is, in my personal opinion, unnecessary. All teams have the same starting conditions, in terms of time for preparation and so on.
As for the format, it will be as in the group stage, in addition to the updates of the oxide and overwatch and map order: 7 sets of Bo1 (for both semifinals and finals).
New players can be added 72 hours before the start of the matches and the line-up must be submitted to the admins before the matches start (preferably 30 min before the start of the match).
Good luck to you all!
LRM) was the only team who wasn't aware they were in the playoffs, hence the complaint.
All I can say was that the playoffs was anticipated to start the week or second week after the season ended, whether it was announced or not. The fact that it was confirmed to be the first week after the league ended so shortly to the weekend seems to be just an easy cop-out excuse that is now convenient for some. It's like going to a university level course and studying for a semester and all of a sudden they announce when the final will be 3 weeks before the final, are you screwed? I should hope not, you should've been studying already through-out the term. Further, you talk about inactive team and underdog, that is complete bs. LRM has been re-adding and changing line up to grab the most recently active players as the league progressed, for example: choosy (who has played about 200games in a very short time, before him was Pike who also had the same amount of gaming on fish/iccup). Finally, LRM already had most of the top 20 players in which almost all of them are capable to be ace players and the responsibility ultimately comes down to the roster, if none of your players care enough to prepare on a good schedule then you have no right to complain. Sure, everyone has a busy schedule but if you really wanted to show a good performance I'm sure it's possible to organize a few hours a week of practice.
I suggest every one drop personal grudges and sarcasm and if you want to discuss this, focus on the actual problem(s). (which is defintely not a conspiracy around (or against) Sziky or any other specific player)
What it comes down to is communication, I think. Keeping the overview about things going on, making sure things are announced in time (a minimum of two weeks notice is probably adequate), also the little things, like letting people know if you won't have much time in the near future, to answer questions or work on things, are important, so it's at least clear what's going on and to set priorities: Infos need to be out in time and it's actually not much work to it (takes one short forum post); flavour (fancy banners, texts etc.) can wait. I am sure there will be internal discussion and organizational improvements regarding this before the next team league.
As for the situation right now: Saying that you did not see the playoffs coming and that you are badly prepared is probably a bit exagerated - every one knew when group stages would be over after last week's maches and the idea of making any significant changes, like in the map pool, has already been droped, after all. That being said, personally I think the request of the OP is not an unreasonable one and I cannot see any real damage that delaying the playoffs for another week would cause aside from the fact that it would be just another short term change that would be imposed on players without sufficient notice, so it wouldn't necessarily be the right (or best) decision. The problem of late public announcement is unfortunately one that cannot be solved retroactively.
How dare LRM) add players only known clan wise to be in LRM) for years and years? What is this debauchery?!
dRaW: Consider this. iFU knew they were in the playoffs. sas knew they were in the playoffs. Peruvian team with ironic name knew they were in the playoffs. LRM) had no fucking clue, and after directly asking all organizers available to us for this league were given no response. The chat logs follow.
To Jaevlaterran: [1/23/2014 3:39:36 AM] David Barr: are we in the playoffs?
No response.
To MeAtShIeLdAOLScReeNNamE:
[1/23/2014 1:31:40 PM] David Barr: hi, are we in the playoffs? [1/24/2014 6:38:26 AM] mEATshEILd: well, it depends on if we decide to give all teams 4-0 vs AoV (because AoV are out of the tournament) and if PsB wins vs LaGFree with 4-0, then you are not. But the possibility of PsB 4-0:ing LaGFree are quiet low, in my opinion. [1/24/2014 6:49:07 AM] David Barr: I see, ty [1/24/2014 6:51:09 AM] mEATshEILd: np
We never received word on the AoV decision.
My next messages (of which I wasn't home for one day, because you know, real life):
[1/28/2014 8:34:01 AM] mEATshEILd: Congrats to your spot in the STL1 playoffs! Good luck! [1/29/2014 8:29:47 AM] David Barr: when do they start? [1/29/2014 8:30:30 AM] mEATshEILd: the playoffs start 19:00 CET/13:00 EST on feb 1 [1/29/2014 8:31:02 AM] David Barr: and we're finding out today? [1/29/2014 8:31:02 AM] mEATshEILd: both semi-finals are play at the same time [1/29/2014 8:31:27 AM] mEATshEILd: yes [1/29/2014 8:31:33 AM] David Barr: lol k [1/29/2014 8:32:45 AM] mEATshEILd: well, u guys played for 7 weeks, its the same map pool, diffrent order and some updates. we figured u guys had some time to practice. [1/29/2014 8:33:02 AM] David Barr: why would we practice if we didn't know we were in? [1/29/2014 8:33:28 AM] mEATshEILd: we do apologizes for the delay [1/29/2014 8:36:58 AM] mEATshEILd: well, if you looked at the stats, you guy were in the playoffs two weeks ago. [1/29/2014 8:38:56 AM] mEATshEILd: Good luck in the playoffs!
[9:35:14 AM] Jaevlaterran: I mentioned what you said in the organizing group [9:35:16 AM] Jaevlaterran: [3:32:14 PM] mEATshEILd: it is not [3:32:42 PM] mEATshEILd: they have played for 7 week. they have been a candidate for the playoffs for a long time [3:33:09 PM] mEATshEILd: not our responability that they dont pratice and have players that are inactive. [3:34:06 PM] mEATshEILd: but thats just my opinion. [9:35:25 AM] Jaevlaterran: this is what we all agreed on [9:37:25 AM] David Barr: You guys made no playoff announcement. As the organization, that's pretty much your only responsibility, let alone giving us enough time to clear our schedules for the playoffs. This is an old game and we're all adults with real life obligations. It's your fault as an organization that we don't have enough notice in any formality, official or not. Thus, I ask for the playoffs to be pushed back a week.
They never, until probably right now as they're reading this realize that they never communicated anything to us and thus are solely to blame for all issues arising.
You are basically blaming the organizers for not being able to predict the future, i.e. whether your team would make the playoffs or not. From the info in the first log (i.e. PsB needing to 4:0 Lag Free) you could have already concluded that it would probably be a good idea to get your team prepared for the playoffs. Your response "why would we practice if we weren't absolutely sure" really doesn't cut it. So the only flaw remaining on the organizer's side is the late announcement of the definite date, but that cannot be retroactively changed and you cannot blame your own lack of foresight on it. You had to assume that a)you were in the playoffs and b) they would start once the group satges were over, which were both known long before.
The main argument, imo, is not which team is prepared and which not. It's pretty simple organisational issue, not excuse imo. I couldn't find anywhere info in regards to playoffs schedule. The inactiveness just fuels the already necessary duty for organizers to announce earlier what's going on and when. What if someone wants to preplay a set? The time to do so is significantly hurt and narrowed. Even if nobody wants to preplay anything, it seems really off to announce one days and a half playoffs.
My first reply here was to cut out all that long stuff I had to write eventually so I just wrote some short sentence of agreement.
Also LRM is one of the most inactive teams for long time now, not just this season. I am talking facts that are valid for since mid 2008 and Choosy coming back for LRM in the recent days is a laughable and brittle argument for the opposite thesis.
On February 01 2014 03:43 LRM)TechnicS wrote: The main argument, imo, is not which team is prepared and which not. It's pretty simple organisational issue, not excuse imo. I couldn't find anywhere info in regards to playoffs schedule. The inactiveness just fuels the already necessary duty for organizers to announce earlier what's going on and when. What if someone wants to preplay a set? The time to do so is significantly hurt and narrowed. Even if nobody wants to preplay anything, it seems really off to announce one days and a half playoffs.
My first reply here was to cut out all that long stuff I had to write eventually so I just wrote some short sentence of agreement.
Also LRM is one of the most inactive teams for long time now, not just this season. I am talking facts that are valid for since mid 2008 and Choosy coming back for LRM in the recent days is a laughable and brittle argument for the opposite thesis.
I can grab many LRM players with more ladder games on both fish and iccup than other teams and I bet that will surprise you. What do you consider active? (teams practicing among themselves? I can tell you sas never did anything of the sort) edit: Further, if you guys are so inactive then you can't request or complain for special treatment on delaying the playoffs so you may or may not prepare (how can you prepare if you guys are so inactive?)
I will spell it out again: "The main argument, imo, is not which team is prepared and which not. It's pretty simple organisational issue, not excuse imo. I couldn't find anywhere info in regards to playoffs schedule. The inactiveness just fuels the already necessary duty for organizers to announce earlier what's going on and when. What if someone wants to preplay a set? The time to do so is significantly hurt and narrowed. Even if nobody wants to preplay anything, it seems really off to announce one days and a half playoffs."
Announcing playoffs in time is what is needed/wanted, not one and a half days before the games. Organisational etiquette. Super simple stuff.
Ofc, there will be the occasional examples of active LRM players at given time, but the overall picture for years now is such that cannot be overwhelmed by 2-5 players imho
i think i'm starting to understand better. so basically, if we play this saturday, LRM can't field their desired lineup, because the players have other known obligations and thus can't attend, but had they known earlier they could have, or should we play next saturday, they could. is this correct?
On February 01 2014 04:58 skzlime wrote: i think i'm starting to understand better. so basically, if we play this saturday, LRM can't field their desired lineup, because the players have other known obligations and thus can't attend, but had they known earlier they could have, or should we play next saturday, they could. is this correct?
If that is the case I would definitely say that merits weight, provided that Game is correct in that LRM was not given information to realize their playoff situation.
For practicing I'm incline to accept the argument of one ought to be in practice generally, but when it comes to things like fielding lineups and people having to deal with work and stuff players cannot necessarily be asking for 2 days off on two separate weekends because playoffs might be on one of them.
I don't know what went on behind the scenes, but if LRM wasn't given sufficient notice and had no way of knowing when the playoffs would start and thus don't have time to get days off/make time to field a proper lineup that's a pretty legitimate argument.
On February 01 2014 04:58 skzlime wrote: i think i'm starting to understand better. so basically, if we play this saturday, LRM can't field their desired lineup, because the players have other known obligations and thus can't attend, but had they known earlier they could have, or should we play next saturday, they could. is this correct?
I don't know what went on behind the scenes, but if LRM wasn't given sufficient notice and had no way of knowing when the playoffs would start and thus don't have time to get days off/make time to field a proper lineup that's a pretty legitimate argument.
But even I knew LRM was in the play-offs, and I'm not even in the SBWI group or part of the league, and it seems like the only people who didn't know were LRM.
On February 01 2014 04:58 skzlime wrote: i think i'm starting to understand better. so basically, if we play this saturday, LRM can't field their desired lineup, because the players have other known obligations and thus can't attend, but had they known earlier they could have, or should we play next saturday, they could. is this correct?
I don't know what went on behind the scenes, but if LRM wasn't given sufficient notice and had no way of knowing when the playoffs would start and thus don't have time to get days off/make time to field a proper lineup that's a pretty legitimate argument.
But even I knew LRM was in the play-offs, and I'm not even in the SBWI group or part of the league, and it seems like the only people who didn't know were LRM.
If that is correct then it will be easy to show LRM ought to have known.
What I am interested in is when the various teams knew what date the playoffs were going to be on. Anything less than a week realistically isn't enough time to get time off work/rearrange schedule.
Here is my opinion of this situation, which may be biased, but still should be valid for the following reasons:
- sas, lagfree, and ifu were already set to play at the designated time. It would be unfair to change the schedule at the point for a team claims to be largely inactive. - LRM should have been prepared, organization-wise, to play in the post-season games, regardless of the outcome of the unresolved issues. - LRM has a history of making frivolous complaints that would inconvenience everyone else for the sake of LRM and affiliates, often which benefit LRM. - Despite having large rosters, ifu and lagfree have not had any "organizational issues" that they have visibly complained about on the forums. sas has the opposite problem of being under-staffed, but have not publicly launched any similar complaints. - LRM, in all the leagues has lodged more complaints and petitions than every other team combined.
On February 01 2014 04:58 skzlime wrote: i think i'm starting to understand better. so basically, if we play this saturday, LRM can't field their desired lineup, because the players have other known obligations and thus can't attend, but had they known earlier they could have, or should we play next saturday, they could. is this correct?
If that is the case I would definitely say that merits weight, provided that Game is correct in that LRM was not given information to realize their playoff situation.
For practicing I'm incline to accept the argument of one ought to be in practice generally, but when it comes to things like fielding lineups and people having to deal with work and stuff players cannot necessarily be asking for 2 days off on two separate weekends because playoffs might be on one of them.
I don't know what went on behind the scenes, but if LRM wasn't given sufficient notice and had no way of knowing when the playoffs would start and thus don't have time to get days off/make time to field a proper lineup that's a pretty legitimate argument.
Yeah, well.
First off, it was kinda a sure thing LRM would advance, regardless of what happened between LaGFree and PsB, and regardless of what would happen with AoV. You can bet your ass LRM's management would've launched a massive complaint, IF this one case would have happend - AoV's opponents getting all 4-0s and PsB defeating LaGFree 4-0 or whatever the case was. It was kinda clear for three weeks now that LRM could basically do whatever and still finish fourth.
Second, the way I think SBWI handles these things is to send out information to all parties at the same time. It really doesn't matter if that happens via Skype, MSN or TL.net posts. In case of Skype I can see how a manger can complain he would got the message relatively late, as either an SBWI official or the LRM manager was offline. That's bad luck, but it isn't SBWI's task to wait 24/7 for LRM's management to show up. Actually, that'd be poor from LRM's management.
Third, LRM's management (I really do not refer to the players, I actually think most of them are quite cool, at least the guys I interviewed) is, as Nina pointed out, quite aware of rules and these things. They've could asked openly way before, they could have given notice and all that they might need one week to arrange things for the wars. That can be expected of LRM's management, it really can. The orgas claim that LRM is a top notch foreign team, they literally bought a player, they read rules thoroughly, yet they're the guys to scream loudest to not have enough players in shape to play. You can't go around and say you're serious eSports buiz people and then not get the basic stuff done.
Fourth, most players playing in this league for LRM (who I can remember) are from Europe. They'd play Saturday evening, that's rarely a time most grown up adults work. There are jobs which require you to work in this time frame (and there's no judgement in this), but if you have a job with times on Saturday evening, you most likely have had no time in the weeks before. So that's kinda... strange. I might be completely wrong here, might be that half of LRM pre-played their games, but of that I never heard a thing.
It's more like skzlime says, LRM feels like they won't get their players in time. But all other teams have to fight the same problem - all of them play on short notice. Terror politely asked to move it one week, skzlime says it'd prolly be better. Now look who storms in and throws the word bias in the room? It really looks more like superficial crying than an unsolvable problem.
Not saying it was nice by SBWI to come out late with announces, but it's for sure not entirely their fault in this situation. I agree with TechnicS' statement that this does not follow the usual procedure, but still, it's something you could deal with on both ends.
EPT
