On August 26 2013 07:30 RedMosquito wrote: As a viewer, it gets really tiresome and boring watching bio being utilized every game by Terran. Bio every once and a while would be cool. But every game is not. Viewers want to see creativity and variety.
The real design flaw i think is that bio + good micro can be used every game in every matchup. Other unit combinations do not offer the speed, power, and harassment potential that MMM has. Not to mention MMM is also cheap.
I think originally the designers figured that bio's weakness would be its fragility. Every unit is supposed to have some kind of weakness or difficulty associated with it. Pro level micro and healing support negate these weaknesses.
Blizzard for whatever reason, seems to think that high tech units need to be massive A-move units and their only weakness is being slow.
Imagine if Reapers cost 25-25, had 6 range, did 6x2 to everything per shot, built in only 28 seconds (it is 45 now and Marines are 25), could be still Reactored and retained their self-heal. But Blizzard made a requirement that you had to have a Fusion Core built to build them.
They'd be an awesome late game replacement to the Marine that wouldn't require Medivacs for healing or traversing cliffs. High tech units don't need to be massive powerhouses or expensive spell casters. They could small speedy units like that. And that would make SC2 so much better.
On August 26 2013 07:30 RedMosquito wrote: As a viewer, it gets really tiresome and boring watching bio being utilized every game by Terran. Bio every once and a while would be cool. But every game is not. Viewers want to see creativity and variety.
The real design flaw i think is that bio + good micro can be used every game in every matchup. Other unit combinations do not offer the speed, power, and harassment potential that MMM has. Not to mention MMM is also cheap.
I think originally the designers figured that bio's weakness would be its fragility. Every unit is supposed to have some kind of weakness or difficulty associated with it. Pro level micro and healing support negate these weaknesses.
Blizzard for whatever reason, seems to think that high tech units need to be massive A-move units and their only weakness is being slow.
Imagine if Reapers cost 25-25, had 6 range, did 6x2 to everything per shot, built in only 28 seconds (it is 45 now and Marines are 25), could be still Reactored and retained their self-heal. But Blizzard made a requirement that you had to have a Fusion Core built to build them.
They'd be an awesome late game replacement to the Marine that wouldn't require Medivacs. High tech units don't need to be massive powerhouses or expensive spell casters. They could small speedy units like that. And that would make SC2 so much better.
I don´t know if I agree with your reaper Idea, but I totally support your point on the high tech units. High Tech units should be about unique abilities and Blizzard went the right direction with the viper here, which is fragile but offers strong, gamedeciding spells. I think the raven was intended to be of that kind too, but its spells are..... well not that gamedeciding.
TvP is also dull because you are making specific counter units all game long. Not ONCE, can you make protoss to react in your composition. Whatever unit I choose to build at 20 minutes mark, protoss has the units that counter it. Protoss can force reaction from Terran in the lategame. He can vary the colossus number, and Terran needs to be on top of that.
This is wrong. Even though it is pretty much standard to mass marine/marauder, it's the mass marine/marauder that forces colossus and templar. Otherwise, your points are spot on; terran doesn't really have many options other than "how do I get to MMMGV?"
TvZ is a lot better.
Midgame has slightly more variance than the TvP, because Zerg has options to make the match up interesting. You still see Roach/Hydra being played sometimes, HyuN notably goes for huge amounts of roachlingbane, people choose between infestors and mutalisks... Terran composition depends mostly on opponent (I'm not exactly complaining about this, even tho I can see why it might be annoying that you can't force your opponent to react to your composition at all, but the other way around).
TvZ suffers from the same problems (although perhaps not quite as pronounced). The key to this is that you add a thor or some tanks or some hellbats or marauders to MARINE/MINE -_-. I actually hate this matchup right now, I never want to watch it hahaha.
On August 26 2013 09:09 BronzeKnee wrote: The power of the Marine and the way the Terran tech tree is designed is the problem. Sometimes I wish instead of nerfing the Tank (when it did 60 damage to everything) Blizzard had nerfed the Marine. Imagine how much different SC2 would be today...
Anyway, the first issue is the Marine. The Marine is the big damage for Bio players, but it only costs minerals. This isn't an issue for Bio players. But it is for Mech players because Blizzard has to balance Terran as whole, and nothing stops Terran players from combining Marines with the big damage dealers from the Factory (Tanks) and the Starport (Banshees). Hence, we got the 1-1-1 dominating TvP and TvT for a time. This wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for the Terran tech tree.
The Terran tech tree doesn't branch the way the Protoss or Zerg tech tree does. It goes Bio-Mech-Air, every time. Compare that to Protoss who don't have to make a Robotics to get Stargate units. Sure there is one additional structure for each tier (Ghost Academy, Armory and Fusion Core) but there is almost little variation. This, combined with the tech lab add-on allows Terran to tech incredibly fast. That is a problem, because if any of the Terran units tech are any stronger then they are now, then Terran would just build them off one base an win.
So that is why we get things like the 1-1-1 from Terran, combining the mineral only Marines with gas intensive powerful tech units (Banshees and Tanks). If you improve the power of the Banshee, Tank, Thor, or even the Battlecruiser without counter balancing the Marine, you risk one base timings becoming too powerful.
I'm not quite sure what you're arguing here. Do you remember that BW game where the terran tech tree was pretty much identical? I mean, I can agree that the marine is perhaps a little too powerful (and multi-purpose, which is where the problem lies), but the tech tree has no problem that I can see.
Something simple, like reducing Marine HP by 5, but having Combat shields give +15 might allow Tanks to get the buff necessary to make Mech viable while not making the 1-1-1 imbalanced or destroying Bio play. And something would probably need to be done with the Viper too... Alternatively, Blizzard could slow the Terran tech tree, but that would hurt Bio players because they need access to Medivacs relatively quickly and would be a much bigger change.
These are huge changes that could never work. The easiest way to bypass the marine problem is to give terran players more early options for defense (I know this sounds crazy, but the problem is that marines + bunkers counter everything that can be thrown at them).
On August 26 2013 07:30 RedMosquito wrote: As a viewer, it gets really tiresome and boring watching bio being utilized every game by Terran. Bio every once and a while would be cool. But every game is not. Viewers want to see creativity and variety.
The real design flaw i think is that bio + good micro can be used every game in every matchup. Other unit combinations do not offer the speed, power, and harassment potential that MMM has. Not to mention MMM is also cheap.
I think originally the designers figured that bio's weakness would be its fragility. Every unit is supposed to have some kind of weakness or difficulty associated with it. Pro level micro and healing support negate these weaknesses.
Blizzard for whatever reason, seems to think that high tech units need to be massive A-move units and their only weakness is being slow.
Imagine if Reapers cost 25-25, had 6 range, did 6x2 to everything per shot, built in only 28 seconds (it is 45 now and Marines are 25), could be still Reactored and retained their self-heal. But Blizzard made a requirement that you had to have a Fusion Core built to build them.
They'd be an awesome late game replacement to the Marine that wouldn't require Medivacs for healing or traversing cliffs. High tech units don't need to be massive powerhouses or expensive spell casters. They could small speedy units like that. And that would make SC2 so much better.
That is how Blizzard can make SC2 more exciting.
Did you just say it would be exciting to change the reaper into an overpowered lategame marine? How is that more exciting than seeing marines?
Again, the problem with terran is not that the high tech units are expensive and slow. That's how they were in BW...there wasn't a problem there. The problem in SC2 is that it's impossible to control space as well because tanks, widow mines, and planetaries don't do their jobs exceptionally well. Add that to a host of other general design issues, and there's no way to make static defense powerful yet not overpowered. So...we're in kind of a quandary.
But still, the problem isn't just the marine and how good the marine is lategame, but with how terran controls space.
On August 26 2013 07:30 RedMosquito wrote: As a viewer, it gets really tiresome and boring watching bio being utilized every game by Terran. Bio every once and a while would be cool. But every game is not. Viewers want to see creativity and variety.
The real design flaw i think is that bio + good micro can be used every game in every matchup. Other unit combinations do not offer the speed, power, and harassment potential that MMM has. Not to mention MMM is also cheap.
I think originally the designers figured that bio's weakness would be its fragility. Every unit is supposed to have some kind of weakness or difficulty associated with it. Pro level micro and healing support negate these weaknesses.
Blizzard for whatever reason, seems to think that high tech units need to be massive A-move units and their only weakness is being slow.
Imagine if Reapers cost 25-25, had 6 range, did 6x2 to everything per shot, built in only 28 seconds (it is 45 now and Marines are 25), could be still Reactored and retained their self-heal. But Blizzard made a requirement that you had to have a Fusion Core built to build them.
They'd be an awesome late game replacement to the Marine that wouldn't require Medivacs. High tech units don't need to be massive powerhouses or expensive spell casters. They could small speedy units like that. And that would make SC2 so much better.
I don´t know if I agree with your reaper Idea, but I totally support your point on the high tech units. High Tech units should be about unique abilities and Blizzard went the right direction with the viper here, which is fragile but offers strong, gamedeciding spells. I think the raven was intended to be of that kind too, but its spells are..... well not that gamedeciding.
On August 26 2013 09:28 SC2John wrote:
These are huge changes that could never work. The easiest way to bypass the marine problem is to give terran players more early options for defense (I know this sounds crazy, but the problem is that marines + bunkers counter everything that can be thrown at them).
I want to be clear that I'm just throwing out ideas, just some examples to illustrate my point.
I also don't think we should look to BW for design ideas. BW was a great game, but late game tech units could be something other than a spell caster or massive high damage high health unit.
Blizzard wants dynamic game play that doesn't revolve around the deathball, but the way they built the high tech units in this games says the opposite. So what do they do? They nerf the high tech units into the ground, or offer ridiculously strong counters (the Viper) that discourage people using them.
On August 26 2013 09:09 BronzeKnee wrote: The power of the Marine and the way the Terran tech tree is designed is the problem. Sometimes I wish instead of nerfing the Tank (when it did 60 damage to everything) Blizzard had nerfed the Marine. Imagine how much different SC2 would be today...
Anyway, the first issue is the Marine. The Marine is the big damage for Bio players, but it only costs minerals. This isn't an issue for Bio players. But it is for Mech players because Blizzard has to balance Terran as whole, and nothing stops Terran players from combining Marines with the big damage dealers from the Factory (Tanks) and the Starport (Banshees). Hence, we got the 1-1-1 dominating TvP and TvT for a time. This wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for the Terran tech tree.
The Terran tech tree doesn't branch the way the Protoss or Zerg tech tree does. It goes Bio-Mech-Air, every time. Compare that to Protoss who don't have to make a Robotics to get Stargate units. Sure there is one additional structure for each tier (Ghost Academy, Armory and Fusion Core) but there is almost little variation. This, combined with the tech lab add-on allows Terran to tech incredibly fast. That is a problem, because if any of the Terran units tech are any stronger then they are now, then Terran would just build them off one base an win.
So that is why we get things like the 1-1-1 from Terran, combining the mineral only Marines with gas intensive powerful tech units (Banshees and Tanks). If you improve the power of the Banshee, Tank, Thor, or even the Battlecruiser without counter balancing the Marine, you risk one base timings becoming too powerful.
Something simple, like reducing Marine HP by 5, but having Combat shields give +15 might allow Tanks to get the buff necessary to make Mech viable while not making the 1-1-1 imbalanced or destroying Bio play. And something would probably need to be done with the Viper too... Alternatively, Blizzard could slow the Terran tech tree, but that would hurt Bio players because they need access to Medivacs relatively quickly and would be a much bigger change.
While reading this I had the voice of Stan in American Dad in my head telling me all this super fast and super excited!
The thing is, making bio less strong doesn't help because mech is usually not a good option for terran. It's not as good on its own to take on everything the other races can throw at it, else it would be played much more often! Think about it: if mech can stand against toss and zerg with small adjustment to unit composition, bio would dominate these races because it is so much better than mech!
Terran has the most options nearly all the units gel together really well. Bio/mech Pure mech, pure bio. It works Terran have many harrass options. They are weak in a death ball vs death ball situation (unless mech.) The problem with Terran is you can't remax as fast as zerg or protoss. I don't really see a flaw in the design of the race of Terran, if anything it is the most developed. It is funny to see a post like this after bomber 4-0 Jaedong. As far as mirror match ups go TvT is probably the best simply because nearly all styles can be used in it. A person going pure bio can beat a pure mech player and so on. Sure you see a lot of bio from the pros but that is because Bio is just the best option and the strongest because you can deal with just about everything with bio. Mech is harder but technically would be the strongest.
On August 26 2013 09:09 BronzeKnee wrote: The power of the Marine and the way the Terran tech tree is designed is the problem. Sometimes I wish instead of nerfing the Tank (when it did 60 damage to everything) Blizzard had nerfed the Marine. Imagine how much different SC2 would be today...
Anyway, the first issue is the Marine. The Marine is the big damage for Bio players, but it only costs minerals. This isn't an issue for Bio players. But it is for Mech players because Blizzard has to balance Terran as whole, and nothing stops Terran players from combining Marines with the big damage dealers from the Factory (Tanks) and the Starport (Banshees). Hence, we got the 1-1-1 dominating TvP and TvT for a time. This wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for the Terran tech tree.
The Terran tech tree doesn't branch the way the Protoss or Zerg tech tree does. It goes Bio-Mech-Air, every time. Compare that to Protoss who don't have to make a Robotics to get Stargate units. Sure there is one additional structure for each tier (Ghost Academy, Armory and Fusion Core) but there is almost little variation. This, combined with the tech lab add-on allows Terran to tech incredibly fast. That is a problem, because if any of the Terran units tech are any stronger then they are now, then Terran would just build them off one base an win.
So that is why we get things like the 1-1-1 from Terran, combining the mineral only Marines with gas intensive powerful tech units (Banshees and Tanks). If you improve the power of the Banshee, Tank, Thor, or even the Battlecruiser without counter balancing the Marine, you risk one base timings becoming too powerful.
Something simple, like reducing Marine HP by 5, but having Combat shields give +15 might allow Tanks to get the buff necessary to make Mech viable while not making the 1-1-1 imbalanced or destroying Bio play. And something would probably need to be done with the Viper too... Alternatively, Blizzard could slow the Terran tech tree, but that would hurt Bio players because they need access to Medivacs relatively quickly and would be a much bigger change.
While reading this I had the voice of Stan in American Dad in my head telling me all this super fast and super excited!
The thing is, making bio less strong doesn't help because mech is usually not a good option for terran. It's not as good on its own to take on everything the other races can throw at it, else it would be played much more often! Think about it: if mech can stand against toss and zerg with small adjustment to unit composition, bio would dominate these races because it is so much better than mech!
American Dad is my favorite show, but Roger is my favorite character. So please imagine Roger saying this, in a sarcastic and condescending tone:
You're getting a punch. Your post contradicts itself, perhaps because of a language barrier because you're German. You state that Mech isn't good, and making Bio less strong doesn't help. Then you conclude that making make stronger wouldn't help because Bio is better than Mech.
But if we made Bio weaker (or at least the Marine slightly weaker when not upgraded) and Mech stronger, what happens? Then Mech can stand against the other races, and Bio wouldn't dominate them because Bio wouldn't be so much better than Mech?
It doesn't take a genius Klaus to understand this.
Every single time a race does well (aka, one guy wins a tournament? :D), armchair designers come out of the woods and tell the world about how this race's design is fundamentally broken. I know that well, I've done it before.
On August 26 2013 09:42 ZenithM wrote: Every single time a race does well (aka, one guy wins a tournament? :D), armchair designers come out of the woods and tell the words about how this race's design is fundamentally broken. I know that well, I've done it before.
But really, Terran is well designed, move along.
And every time anybody tries to talk about anything on a Forum (where you talk about things) people come in and tell them that isn't worth talking about it.
But really, if you have nothing to add, don't say anything.
On August 26 2013 09:42 ZenithM wrote: Every single time a race does well (aka, one guy wins a tournament? :D), armchair designers come out of the woods and tell the words about how this race's design is fundamentally broken. I know that well, I've done it before.
But really, Terran is well designed, move along.
And every time anybody tries to talk about anything on a Forum (where you talk about things) people come in and tell them that isn't worth talking about it.
But really, if you have nothing to add, don't say anything. Get out.
But he was saying something. He was saying, "I disagree, terran is well designed." Disagreeing is not saying does not mean you have nothing to add.
On August 26 2013 09:42 ZenithM wrote: Every single time a race does well (aka, one guy wins a tournament? :D), armchair designers come out of the woods and tell the words about how this race's design is fundamentally broken. I know that well, I've done it before.
But really, Terran is well designed, move along.
And every time anybody tries to talk about anything on a Forum (where you talk about things) people come in and tell them that isn't worth talking about it.
But really, if you have nothing to add, don't say anything. Get out.
But he was saying something. He was saying, "I disagree, terran is well designed." Disagreeing is not saying nothing.
It doesn't add to the discussion at all to come in and say I agree, or I disagree.
That is why +1 posts get a warning or ban on this forum. If -1 meant you disagree, people would get warning or bans too. Thank God the mods don't allow that either, because this forum would be terrible.
Obviously he doesn't want to discuss it or talk about, otherwise he'd explain why. Frankly, I find it pretty rude for someone to come in and tell us that what we are discussing isn't worth a discussion. He doesn't need to tell us that, and if he doesn't like the discussion, then he simply needs to move on.
On August 26 2013 09:42 ZenithM wrote: Every single time a race does well (aka, one guy wins a tournament? :D), armchair designers come out of the woods and tell the words about how this race's design is fundamentally broken. I know that well, I've done it before.
But really, Terran is well designed, move along.
Umm... Nice try. If you read why I brought this topic up, then you would know that this is more than based on a tournament win. Btw, I am a Bomber/Polt fan, so I have nothing against them. But I really wanted Jaedong to win for storyline sake.
On August 26 2013 09:42 ZenithM wrote: Every single time a race does well (aka, one guy wins a tournament? :D), armchair designers come out of the woods and tell the words about how this race's design is fundamentally broken. I know that well, I've done it before.
But really, Terran is well designed, move along.
And every time anybody tries to talk about anything on a Forum (where you talk about things) people come in and tell them that isn't worth talking about it.
But really, if you have nothing to add, don't say anything. Get out.
But he was saying something. He was saying, "I disagree, terran is well designed." Disagreeing is not saying does not mean you have nothing to add.
If you disagree, then you should state why. Just saying that you don't like something really says nothing other than the person's central opinion. All-in-all, I'm fine with people disagreeing with me, but I am more baffled if people say, "you're wrong" without telling me why.
On August 26 2013 09:09 BronzeKnee wrote: The power of the Marine and the way the Terran tech tree is designed is the problem. Sometimes I wish instead of nerfing the Tank (when it did 60 damage to everything) Blizzard had nerfed the Marine. Imagine how much different SC2 would be today...
Anyway, the first issue is the Marine. The Marine is the big damage for Bio players, but it only costs minerals. This isn't an issue for Bio players. But it is for Mech players because Blizzard has to balance Terran as whole, and nothing stops Terran players from combining Marines with the big damage dealers from the Factory (Tanks) and the Starport (Banshees). Hence, we got the 1-1-1 dominating TvP and TvT for a time. This wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for the Terran tech tree.
The Terran tech tree doesn't branch the way the Protoss or Zerg tech tree does. It goes Bio-Mech-Air, every time. Compare that to Protoss who don't have to make a Robotics to get Stargate units. Sure there is one additional structure for each tier (Ghost Academy, Armory and Fusion Core) but there is almost little variation. This, combined with the tech lab add-on allows Terran to tech incredibly fast. That is a problem, because if any of the Terran units tech are any stronger then they are now, then Terran would just build them off one base an win.
So that is why we get things like the 1-1-1 from Terran, combining the mineral only Marines with gas intensive powerful tech units (Banshees and Tanks). If you improve the power of the Banshee, Tank, Thor, or even the Battlecruiser without counter balancing the Marine, you risk one base timings becoming too powerful.
Something simple, like reducing Marine HP by 5, but having Combat shields give +15 might allow Tanks to get the buff necessary to make Mech viable while not making the 1-1-1 imbalanced or destroying Bio play. And something would probably need to be done with the Viper too... Alternatively, Blizzard could slow the Terran tech tree, but that would hurt Bio players because they need access to Medivacs relatively quickly and would be a much bigger change.
While reading this I had the voice of Stan in American Dad in my head telling me all this super fast and super excited!
The thing is, making bio less strong doesn't help because mech is usually not a good option for terran. It's not as good on its own to take on everything the other races can throw at it, else it would be played much more often! Think about it: if mech can stand against toss and zerg with small adjustment to unit composition, bio would dominate these races because it is so much better than mech!
American Dad is my favorite show, but Roger is my favorite character. So please imagine Roger saying this, in a sarcastic and condescending tone:
You're getting a punch. Your post contradicts itself, perhaps because of a language barrier because your German. You state that Mech isn't good, and making Bio less strong doesn't help. Then you conclude that making make stronger wouldn't help because Bio is better than Mech.
But if we made Bio weaker (or the Marine slightly weaker when not upgraded) and Mech stronger, what happens?
It doesn't take a genius Klaus to understand this.
My name is not Klaus, but thanks anyway What happens in PvT is that marines get chopped to pieces by zealots and fried by stalkers in the first minutes. Protoss is already really hard to attack early on because of the mothership core. with weaker marines they are even mroe safe and can play greedier while you need to be extra careful since your first units need to be marines. Isn't the thing with mech that you need to have 100 supply of it to be able to take a fight to the opponent? You will have to change that somehow... I guess that would take some really big adjustments to the game.
TvZ... hmm... might help actually but again, you are more vulnerable early game.
On August 26 2013 09:42 ZenithM wrote: Every single time a race does well (aka, one guy wins a tournament? :D), armchair designers come out of the woods and tell the words about how this race's design is fundamentally broken. I know that well, I've done it before.
But really, Terran is well designed, move along.
And every time anybody tries to talk about anything on a Forum (where you talk about things) people come in and tell them that isn't worth talking about it.
But really, if you have nothing to add, don't say anything. Get out.
But he was saying something. He was saying, "I disagree, terran is well designed." Disagreeing is not saying nothing.
It doesn't add to the discussion at all to come in and say I agree, or I disagree.
That is why +1 posts get a warning or ban on this forum. If -1 meant you disagree, people would get warning or bans too. Thank God the mods don't allow that either, because this forum would be terrible.
Obviously he doesn't want to discuss it or talk about, otherwise he'd explain why. Frankly, I find it pretty rude for someone to come in and tell us that what we are discussing isn't worth a discussion.
He provided reasons why he disagreed and pointed out a trend that he sees after major events and threads of this type. It was not a +1 or - 1. He had talking points.
Also, I agree with him. We have to many people coming out making "design threads" where every just sort of rehashes the same ideas over and over. Its tired and not very productive and mostly is veiled balance whining or an excuse to whine about how tanks should be buffed.
On August 26 2013 09:09 BronzeKnee wrote: The power of the Marine and the way the Terran tech tree is designed is the problem. Sometimes I wish instead of nerfing the Tank (when it did 60 damage to everything) Blizzard had nerfed the Marine. Imagine how much different SC2 would be today...
Anyway, the first issue is the Marine. The Marine is the big damage for Bio players, but it only costs minerals. This isn't an issue for Bio players. But it is for Mech players because Blizzard has to balance Terran as whole, and nothing stops Terran players from combining Marines with the big damage dealers from the Factory (Tanks) and the Starport (Banshees). Hence, we got the 1-1-1 dominating TvP and TvT for a time. This wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for the Terran tech tree.
The Terran tech tree doesn't branch the way the Protoss or Zerg tech tree does. It goes Bio-Mech-Air, every time. Compare that to Protoss who don't have to make a Robotics to get Stargate units. Sure there is one additional structure for each tier (Ghost Academy, Armory and Fusion Core) but there is almost little variation. This, combined with the tech lab add-on allows Terran to tech incredibly fast. That is a problem, because if any of the Terran units tech are any stronger then they are now, then Terran would just build them off one base an win.
So that is why we get things like the 1-1-1 from Terran, combining the mineral only Marines with gas intensive powerful tech units (Banshees and Tanks). If you improve the power of the Banshee, Tank, Thor, or even the Battlecruiser without counter balancing the Marine, you risk one base timings becoming too powerful.
Something simple, like reducing Marine HP by 5, but having Combat shields give +15 might allow Tanks to get the buff necessary to make Mech viable while not making the 1-1-1 imbalanced or destroying Bio play. And something would probably need to be done with the Viper too... Alternatively, Blizzard could slow the Terran tech tree, but that would hurt Bio players because they need access to Medivacs relatively quickly and would be a much bigger change.
While reading this I had the voice of Stan in American Dad in my head telling me all this super fast and super excited!
The thing is, making bio less strong doesn't help because mech is usually not a good option for terran. It's not as good on its own to take on everything the other races can throw at it, else it would be played much more often! Think about it: if mech can stand against toss and zerg with small adjustment to unit composition, bio would dominate these races because it is so much better than mech!
American Dad is my favorite show, but Roger is my favorite character. So please imagine Roger saying this, in a sarcastic and condescending tone:
You're getting a punch. Your post contradicts itself, perhaps because of a language barrier because your German. You state that Mech isn't good, and making Bio less strong doesn't help. Then you conclude that making make stronger wouldn't help because Bio is better than Mech.
But if we made Bio weaker (or the Marine slightly weaker when not upgraded) and Mech stronger, what happens?
It doesn't take a genius Klaus to understand this.
My name is not Klaus, but thanks anyway What happens in PvT is that marines get chopped to pieces by zealots and fried by stalkers in the first minutes. Protoss is already really hard to attack early on because of the mothership core. with weaker marines they are even mroe safe and can play greedier while you need to be extra careful since your first units need to be marines. Isn't the thing with mech that you need to have 100 supply of it to be able to take a fight to the opponent? You will have to change that somehow... I guess that would take some really big adjustments to the game.
TvZ... hmm... might help actually but again, you are more vulnerable early game.
Klaus is the fish in American Dad that Roger makes fun of... obviously not a fan, it just happened to work out that you are German. You're getting another punch.
You're right about being extra careful with Marines, but you can't just make Mech units better, or else one base timings get out of control because Terran can tech so quick.
On August 26 2013 09:42 ZenithM wrote: Every single time a race does well (aka, one guy wins a tournament? :D), armchair designers come out of the woods and tell the words about how this race's design is fundamentally broken. I know that well, I've done it before.
But really, Terran is well designed, move along.
And every time anybody tries to talk about anything on a Forum (where you talk about things) people come in and tell them that isn't worth talking about it.
But really, if you have nothing to add, don't say anything. Get out.
But he was saying something. He was saying, "I disagree, terran is well designed." Disagreeing is not saying nothing.
It doesn't add to the discussion at all to come in and say I agree, or I disagree.
That is why +1 posts get a warning or ban on this forum. If -1 meant you disagree, people would get warning or bans too. Thank God the mods don't allow that either, because this forum would be terrible.
Obviously he doesn't want to discuss it or talk about, otherwise he'd explain why. Frankly, I find it pretty rude for someone to come in and tell us that what we are discussing isn't worth a discussion.
He provided reasons why he disagreed and pointed out a trend that he sees after major events and threads of this type. It was not a +1 or - 1. He had talking points.
Also, I agree with him. We have to many people coming out making "design threads" where every just sort of rehashes the same ideas over and over. Its tired and not very productive and mostly is veiled balance whining or an excuse to whine about how tanks should be buffed.
Honestly, I don't think you need to here if you think this is a balance discussion (as a spectator I want to see more than Bio). Blizzard isn't going to listen us, and we are just having fun with a discussion.
You can leave now, and go back to your extremely productive and important threads on Team Liquid where people don't whine.
With very linear nature of Terran production and the relative easy to counter nature of Mech by Zerg/Toss it is actually a very true statement to say that Terran is inflexible from a meta-game point of view.
I, personally, would love a tank damage buff with an added in slower rate of fire but I am not sure if Blizzard is willing to even test that with the public.
EPT
