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On August 26 2013 06:52 schaf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 06:38 TeeTS wrote:Mech only works against Protoss and Zerg if your opponent has no clue how to deal with it. Yes there are a lot of Master League Protoss and Zerg, falling into that cathegory. If you have fun with it, fine do so  . But for anyone who wants to perfect his gameplay, it´s a waste of time at the moment, because eventually you will hit a wall with it. When looking at it objectively, Terran has very limited options in both non-mirror matchups from the midgame onwards. That IS a terrible design weakness, because as mentioned in OP, every unit aside from those we use normally is hardcountered by a very simple to use unit of the other races. But who in here is high masters or at the brink of becoming it? I guess most people will never reach that level and so for playing ladder it's perfectly fine. It's harder because you have limited pro-plays to study but that doesn't mean it's not usable.
The game is balanced for proffesionals, not for you and me.
The OP isn't saying that MMM plus support is bad or terran can't win, but the lack of unit composition options. It's important to take into account, that terran has the least flexible path for unit composition transitions, so it's important that in order for terran army comp to work it must be efficient against broader range of unit compositions that protoss/zerg can bring to the table to atleast, buy enough time for a more optimal comp.
This affects others race gameplay too in match ups against terran, since in regular macro games are forced to use one composition aswell that is most effective at dealing with bio (best example is TvP).
That's why if they managed to equalize mech to bio, or atleast biotank, terran match ups would improve greatly (like TvZ on WoL pre queen buff was so awesome, because it wasn't only one unit composition over and over) since the terran could choose between mobility or staying power, and other races act accordingly.
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Terran is not longer the best designed race. You guys need to abandon the old WOL wisdom.
It has become the worst designed race since HOTS.
Protoss and Zerg have a variety of unit compositions in each matchup and progress with the minute mark from low tier to high tier.
Terran has very singular unit compositions in each matchup and it doesn't progress with the minute mark from low tier to high tier.
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I call it:
"Stuck: the Terran Tech Tree"
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On August 26 2013 06:54 Qwyn wrote:
Ok, this is ridiculous. Just because Terran players can't do mech doesn't mean it doesn't have the most diverse combination of builds and puzzle pieces to play with of any race, period...
This is silly. Terran has more diversity in the way it can put together its compositions than both Zerg and Protoss. Protoss follows with a very close second...If you want to whine about diversity, whine about Zerg.
In fact, I'm glad the other races shit on mech as it is. Before you even think about enabling the most diverse race in the game to have another strategic subset, why don't you whine for Blizzard to enable the race which has the least strategic options or build flexibility?
You are question begging (petitio principii). If your conclusion is that Terran is the most flexible race you can't use that as a premise in your argument "Terran is the most flexible race". That's just not how logic works.
By the way, I think that Zerg is by far the weakest race at this point in time, but this has nothing to do with this topic. We are looking for diversity in unit compositions, which I see alot less of in games that involve Terran. TvP is MMM Ghost vikings almost exclusively and in TvZ it's MMMM. That only addresses the diversity we see in Terran unit compositions, not their strength. I personally think mines are too strong vs. Zerg (and even stated exactly that on this forum), but that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
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What if there was a fusion core unlocked upgrade to tanks' seige mode damage that did +20 to armored targets (thus increasing it to parity with their damage in BW) in LotV? Would that be anywhere close to balanced currently, and if not, what would need to change in order for it to be acceptable?
Also, is it possible that the BW feature of Vultures being faster than any other ground unit could have a role in SC2? Could a mid-to-late-game upgrade to Hellion's speed from 4.25 to either 4.75 or 5.25 increase the viability of hardcore harass-heavy builds into the late-game? It's sad that MMM drops have been monopolizing the late game harass of so many Terran games I see, particularly since mech's hellbat drops seem to be falling off.
Increasing the number of things that fusion core unlocks, particularly upgrades, is a good idea. More players building fusion cores means more opportunities to transition into BCs, and we all know how cool that is to see.
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As a viewer, it gets really tiresome and boring watching bio being utilized every game by Terran. Bio every once and a while would be cool. But every game is not. Viewers want to see creativity and variety.
The real design flaw i think is that bio + good micro can be used every game in every matchup. Other unit combinations do not offer the speed, power, and harassment potential that MMM has. Not to mention MMM is also cheap.
I think originally the designers figured that bio's weakness would be its fragility. Every unit is supposed to have some kind of weakness or difficulty associated with it. Pro level micro and healing support negate these weaknesses.
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terran only mmm because that is all they need to play against all strats vs other races.
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On August 26 2013 07:02 ejozl wrote:
I don't agree, Terran is one of the best designed, you can just look at the mirror matchup, it's the best.
It's because of counter units like the Immortal u cannot mech in TvP and meching vs Zerg has a big timer, due to swarmhost/broodlords, but it can be done.
Swarmhost/broodlord isn't why mech isn't viable, vipers are. Viking/raven can take care of broodlords, and sufficient siege tanks can at least hold ground against swarmhosts, but even a pretty big viking count can't prevent a few blinding clouds going down and destroying your army.
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The reason is simply
MMM is so effective in so many situations.
Terran high-tier units are not well designed and also less effective in many situations.
So, Terran uses MMM, all the time. They need to make a few changes to high-tier units to avoid this problem.
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When I say design flaws, I'm talking about how the options that each race can work with.
Now, Protoss did have its own design problems before the Warp Prism buff. Back then, it was mainly a race that either turtled with a 3+ base and get a good unit composition OR do a 2 base timing. During the WoL times, Protoss was extremely vulnerable to early game attacks, which is why the MSC is there to help Protoss deal with early game rushes. Furthermore, MSC help Protoss save expensive units. All-in-all, Protoss seems to be pretty good atm (imo), although we have yet to see Protoss win a Premiere tournament.
As for Zerg, it didn't have much a design problem per se, but it did suffer from balance problems (underpowered to overpowered). Right now, Zerg woes are being shown lately, but Jaedong seems to have brought in a new perspective of the Zerg meta (except against Terran). But I think a lot of Zerg units are currently under-utilized, but we will see how Zerg will develop.
To clarify a few things, I am not saying that Terran is OP. After reading about Flash's view and seeing how other Terrans plays, I just realized how Terran is faced with limited options. All-in-all, if Terran is suffering from this problem, it's pretty much a lose-lose situation for EVERYONE. Pro-players like Flash who love to try something different will be constantly frustrated with the meta. Other Terran progamers will abuse that same strategy because that's the only tactic they know would work. As for other race Progamers, they will find ways to beat that Bio heavy composition and place the Terran players in an eventual limbo. Finally, for the VIEWER like me and others, it gets really boring that Terran will always go for Bio, and it would be nice to see a variety of units from Terran against other races.
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Terran can go mech vs Zerg with specific timigs and in TvP the ultimate comp is Marauder/hellbat/ghost/viking/medivac.
Also Mech in TvZ may be weak to some but it has potential and is used at a pro level so it can be considered here
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Sorry to say this, and I don't mean this to be inflammatory or insulting, but this topic is simply because you're biased from a Terran viewpoint. The subtle logical fallacies in what you consider to be viable openings in other matchups, but then don't list in Terran matchups, sort of proves this.
So, for example,
"Zerg (vs. Terran):
- Mutalisk/Zerg/Baneling
- Roach/Ling/Baneling rush (rare lately)
- Broodlord/Infestor/Ultralisk/Viper (getting rare lately)"
So in this group, you list an allin as a viable playstyle, and yet when you mention Terran, you literally mention none of their potential allins.
Terran still has the Marauder Hellion all-in, double starport banshee all-in, marine tank all-in, Polt's Marine Maurader Hellion 9 min push/all-in.
In addition to that, you list Ultra-Viper-Broodlord-Queen, but don't list Sky Terran. Arguably, getting to the ultimate composition of zerg units is just as hard as getting to an ultimate composition of raven/viking/banshee.
And you're also not listing the Reaper/Hellion/Banshee opening that's meant to delay a zerg third base, or Bomber's Marine/Mine/Medivac style.
Different styles of Terran exist, and not listing them doesn't help your point, it just hinders it. If you're mad about having to use 4M, then learn some of these other all-ins and openers, or try Mech, or do something else.
And before anyone says, double port banshee is useless if you scout it, the same sort of logic applies to Roach/Bane all-ins.
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just pray that Gaben/Volvo buy the rights to "BW2" ("It's not Brood War, it's 'BW2'!!!")
+ Show Spoiler +
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I think you skipped over a lot of what the terran players can do. Reapers, Banch, certain mech.
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Terran is not very well designed at the moment to be honest. TvT was best mirror match up in WoL, and I think it is still best mirror match up in the game. However, it is great because there are so many different styles. Each and every unit terran can make has a role in TvT.
The other match ups do not have similar variance. I'm going with pro games since everyone can mass carriers in their basement.
In TvP MMM+G, Whilst there are several ways to open. The target is always same. Variance is actually really small. There are a few light harassment openings and then CC first. Yay. Protoss has a ton of different and strong all ins, quite a few light harassment openings and ofc. the eco camp. Whilst protoss can use pretty much every unit they can build in the match up... Terran point of view:
- No Banshees
- No Battlecruisers
- No Ravens
- No Thors
- No Hellbats (since the nerf)
- Rarely any siege tanks. (All in defense only)
(It's btw funny that Protoss always complains about Terran staying on Tier 1 units. What the hell do you want me to build then? Our tier 3 is useless in the match up)
TvP is also dull because you are making specific counter units all game long. Not ONCE, can you make protoss to react in your composition. Whatever unit I choose to build at 20 minutes mark, protoss has the units that counter it. Protoss can force reaction from Terran in the lategame. He can vary the colossus number, and Terran needs to be on top of that.
(This certainly creates a lot of the TvP balance whine, it feels so frustrating when you don't have the specific freaking unique counter unit and you just DIE.).
TvZ is a lot better.
Midgame has slightly more variance than the TvP, because Zerg has options to make the match up interesting. You still see Roach/Hydra being played sometimes, HyuN notably goes for huge amounts of roachlingbane, people choose between infestors and mutalisks... Terran composition depends mostly on opponent (I'm not exactly complaining about this, even tho I can see why it might be annoying that you can't force your opponent to react to your composition at all, but the other way around).
And only unit that sees pretty much no combat is Hellbat. Everything else is actually more or less viable. However a lot of the units that do not see action against Protoss are extremely rare in TvZ.
Banshees have started to show up in some early hellion mixes again, but I'm not convinced they'll continue showing up.
Hellbats hardly ever see the light of the day.
Battlecruisers are extremely rare
Ravens are extremely rare
Thors have become rare, but some players are still building them to mix with bio when opponent goes mass mutas.
All in all, I feel that Zerg and Protoss can use most of their arsenal in all match ups. (Carriers excluded) Whilst Terran is more limited in their options. Now someone says, but those units can be used with mech! Tell me about that when mech starts showing up consistently in progames.
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On August 26 2013 08:08 CivilAnarchy wrote:
Sorry to say this, and I don't mean this to be inflammatory or insulting, but this topic is simply because you're biased from a Terran viewpoint. The subtle logical fallacies in what you consider to be viable openings in other matchups, but then don't list in Terran matchups, sort of proves this.
So, for example,
"Zerg (vs. Terran):
- Mutalisk/Zerg/Baneling
- Roach/Ling/Baneling rush (rare lately)
- Broodlord/Infestor/Ultralisk/Viper (getting rare lately)"
So in this group, you list an allin as a viable playstyle, and yet when you mention Terran, you literally mention none of their potential allins.
Terran still has the Marauder Hellion all-in, double starport banshee all-in, marine tank all-in, Polt's Marine Maurader Hellion 9 min push/all-in.
In addition to that, you list Ultra-Viper-Broodlord-Queen, but don't list Sky Terran. Arguably, getting to the ultimate composition of zerg units is just as hard as getting to an ultimate composition of raven/viking/banshee.
And you're also not listing the Reaper/Hellion/Banshee opening that's meant to delay a zerg third base, or Bomber's Marine/Mine/Medivac style.
Different styles of Terran exist, and not listing them doesn't help your point, it just hinders it. If you're mad about having to use 4M, then learn some of these other all-ins and openers, or try Mech, or do something else.
And before anyone says, double port banshee is useless if you scout it, the same sort of logic applies to Roach/Bane all-ins.
All right, I guess I will add those, but then again, those openings you have mentioned are still very rare. Even I mentioned how zerg all-ins are rare as of now.
My point still stands that majority of Terran players have lately not utilized different compositions. I remember MVP doing very different styles, but he's been out, as those strategies work on very SPECIFIC situations.
Reaper/Hellion/Banshee is meant to deal with the 3rd base, but for this one to work, the reaper needs to do a little bit of damage, and hellion needs to do sufficient damage, and the banshee needs to do some damage. Such attack is a big investment, so it needs to do a LOT of damage. But guess what? Zerg players can easily counter that with good scouting, zergling surrounds (thanks to creep spread), and spore crawlers.
Marauder/Hellion is do-able but that requires a very specific timing and needs to rely on lack of Zerg scouting, which is nearly impossible. Also, with the third base ready, zerg will get mutalisks to counter it hard.
Also, Bomber did try Thor and Hellbat, but that failed miserably.
Furthermore, I have mentioned how most of all-ins have become rare lately. And you even said how the all-in's you have mentioned are easily countered by scouting.
Finally, I am not a Terran player. I play Random, so you cannot really say that I am heavily biased from a Terran standpoint.
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I think 4M is fun, fine and good and Id rather not take the risk of having another deathball composition in this game.
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The power of the Marine and the way the Terran tech tree is designed is the problem. Sometimes I wish instead of nerfing the Tank (when it did 60 damage to everything) Blizzard had nerfed the Marine. Imagine how much different SC2 would be today...
Anyway, the first issue is the Marine. The Marine is the big damage for Bio players, but it only costs minerals. This isn't an issue for Bio players. But it is for Mech players because Blizzard has to balance Terran as whole, and nothing stops Terran players from combining Marines with the big damage dealers from the Factory (Tanks) and the Starport (Banshees). Hence, we got the 1-1-1 dominating TvP and TvT for a time. This wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for the Terran tech tree.
The Terran tech tree doesn't branch the way the Protoss or Zerg tech tree does. It goes Bio-Mech-Air, every time. Compare that to Protoss who don't have to make a Robotics to get Stargate units. Sure there is one additional structure for each tier (Ghost Academy, Armory and Fusion Core) but there is almost little variation. This, combined with the tech lab add-on allows Terran to tech incredibly fast. That is a problem, because if any of the Terran units tech are any stronger then they are now, then Terran would just build them off one base an win.
So that is why we get things like the 1-1-1 from Terran, combining the mineral only Marines with gas intensive powerful tech units (Banshees and Tanks). If you improve the power of the Banshee, Tank, Thor, or even the Battlecruiser without counter balancing the Marine, you risk one base timings becoming too powerful.
Something simple, like reducing Marine HP by 5, but having Combat shields give +15 might allow Tanks to get the buff necessary to make Mech viable while not making the 1-1-1 imbalanced or destroying Bio play. And something would probably need to be done with the Viper too... Alternatively, Blizzard could slow the Terran tech tree, but that would hurt Bio players because they need access to Medivacs relatively quickly and would be a much bigger change.
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If you showed me a screenshot of a lategame TvP army in WoL and a lategame TvP army in HotS I don't think I could tell the difference, the two armies would be indistinguishable. In WoL it was MMM+VG and in HotS it's MMM+VG.
Wasn't the whole point of HotS to introduce new units and open up new possibilities for all races?
I have a difficult time watching TvP because the matchup, past a certain point is pretty much exactly like it was on WoL. And I'm sorry but Strelok playing Mech has no impact on that. I respect Strelok, he's a really good player, but he hasn't done much at all in any major or premier tournament in months, so to me as a viewer of starcraft 2, him playing mech has no impact on my experience of the game. This isn't just true for me, it's true for everyone else who watches top level tournaments, because there is no strelok and there is no mech.
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On August 26 2013 09:09 BronzeKnee wrote:
The power of the Marine and the way the Terran tech tree is designed is the problem. Sometimes I wish instead of nerfing the Tank (when it did 60 damage to everything) Blizzard had nerfed the Marine. Imagine how much different SC2 would be today...
Anyway, the first issue is the Marine. The Marine is the big damage for Bio players, but it only costs minerals. This isn't an issue for Bio players. But it is for Mech players because Blizzard has to balance Terran as whole, and nothing stops Terran players from combining Marines with the big damage dealers from the Factory (Tanks) and the Starport (Banshees). Hence, we got the 1-1-1 dominating TvP and TvT for a time. This wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for the Terran tech tree.
The Terran tech tree doesn't branch the way the Protoss or Zerg tech tree does. It goes Bio-Mech-Air, every time. Compare that to Protoss who don't have to make a Robotics to get Stargate units. Sure there is one additional structure for each tier (Ghost Academy, Armory and Fusion Core) but there is almost little variation. This, combined with the tech lab add-on allows Terran to tech incredibly fast. That is a problem, because if any of the Terran units tech are any stronger then they are now, then Terran would just build them off one base an win.
So that is why we get things like the 1-1-1 from Terran, combining the mineral only Marines with gas intensive powerful tech units (Banshees and Tanks). If you improve the power of the Banshee, Tank, Thor, or even the Battlecruiser without counter balancing the Marine, you risk one base timings becoming too powerful.
Something simple, like reducing Marine HP by 5, but having Combat shields give +15 might allow Tanks to get the buff necessary to make Mech viable while not making the 1-1-1 imbalanced or destroying Bio play. And something would probably need to be done with the Viper too... Alternatively, Blizzard could slow the Terran tech tree, but that would hurt Bio players because they need access to Medivacs relatively quickly and would be a much bigger change.
I like your entire post tell the last paragraph, the suggestion don't really make sense. But this does sum up why Bio is terran's strongest option 100% of the time. You can produce 15 marines at a time constantly and constantly put on pressure look at Bomber's game (WCS S2 Finals) he loses 400-500 marines and he never stops pumping them out and sending huge waves of 30-40 marines with widow mine back up. One thing Terran has little use for gas when going bio and can get their econ up that much faster when taking bases.
The only way to start making other options better is to make the marine worse. because they only get stronger and stronger as the game goes on.
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EPT
