First of all, I hope we can have a fruitful and cordial discussion on this topic. Being from America, I don't hear much news about Sweden (other than esports), but every time I do, it's about riots caused by the same minority group in Sweden. Now, I can't pretend to know the social dynamics of the country, but if there's a consistent pattern to social unrest in the country, why doesn't anyone do anything about it? I know Sweden is all about equality and whatnot, but at what point do you say enough and protect the citizens of the country?
I think sending Riot Police qualifies as protecting the citizens. I dont think there were many that got hurt by the rioters. Other then that, what do you want the Swedes to do about this?
As for the "smash patriarchy" guy, stop reading tumblr and go read a book.
I hate tumblr. And I study Literature.
On May 21 2013 10:33 Kimaker wrote:
Right there...makes me 99% sure you're trolling.
There is no fear my good sir. Simply convictions.
On May 21 2013 10:34 Cutlery wrote:
..Just no. He is not cynical but realistic. As for your smashing; are you trolling at this point, or would you prefer to live on your own planet?
You actually need those things which you do not like to protect the things you do like.
"You have views I consider extreme, therefore you must be trolling!" I was being slightly hyperbolic for effect but I do want to see these borders broken down.
Some people actually want the world to change. Sometimes revolutionary change is a good thing. I can't be that much of a villain for wanting people to live in harmony as people, rather than constantly dividing people based on social fabrications such as "culture".
And I didn't say anything about fear, Kimaker. I simply think you've been forced into these convictions. Much like the Red Scare.
In the utterly worthless field of theory, of that much I'm certain. I'm so glad we could be graced with such a lofty intellectual, who's studies are of such importance as literature. Please, preach to us from the Ivory Tower about how white racism bourgeoisie science is keeping the world from progressing and being truly multicultural. I'm all ears.
Too bad even the leftists tend to hate you literary "critic" types.
So after your first ad hominem of "go read a book", when I responded that my entire degree is about reading books, you resorted to more ad hominem. Nice one. Going to offer anything productive or just continue with unnecessary insults?
It matters what you're reading and judging from your "smash everything I don't like" rambling incoherence, I can tell the type of drivel you consume. Get back on subject, so we can continue this conversation about Sweden and its immigration problem.
I thought I was very coherant, albeit polemic.
Are you really throwing Dawkins at me and telling me that it matters what I read?
And I think it's pretty clear I support breaking down the society that thinks immigration is a problem, to the point that there are no such things as nationality or race for people to be divided on, only people. I am a person, I live on planet earth. I like some people, I dislike other people, not because of the colour of their skin, beliefs or gender. Is that really too much of a difficult concept to grasp?
If we lived in a world without these concepts people wouldn't feel the need to leave in the first place - and if they did, they wouldn't be welcomed with such hostility.
..Just no. He is not cynical but realistic. As for your smashing; are you trolling at this point, or would you prefer to live on your own planet?
You actually need those things which you do not like to protect the things you do like.
"You have views I consider extreme, therefore you must be trolling!" I was being slightly hyperbolic for effect but I do want to see these borders broken down.
Some people actually want the world to change. Sometimes revolutionary change is a good thing. I can't be that much of a villain for wanting people to live in harmony as people, rather than constantly dividing people based on social fabrications such as "culture".
And I didn't say anything about fear, Kimaker. I simply think you've been forced into these convictions. Much like the Red Scare.
To begin, I apologize, I genuinely thought you were trolling me. I did not intend that to be insulting.
Moving on...
Are you aware that you're not fighting some monolithic conservative power structure? Are you aware that the left actually won the culture war? Are you aware that for the last 40 years or so Progressivism has been the prevailing ideological motif being expressed in Western society?
Quite frankly, I find your position more insulting. I've clearly been forced into this political and philosophical mindset by my....what? Culture? Parents? Religion? Country? People? Environment? What? Don't be vapid.
No sir, I genuinely disagree with you. I've read the books of the Frankfurt school, I'm well versed in Critical Theory. I've read the Communist Manifesto (4 times) as well as the Doctrina Fascista and (the Progressive Cultural Bible) Guns, Germs and Steel.
I've also read Carlyle, and Machiavelli, and Hobbes. I'm working on the classics, and I've looked at Spengler and Rothbard and Tocqueville.
Larkin, I am not brainwashed, as much as you'd like to think I am. I'm extremely studied. And my studies have honestly led me to these conclusions.
Also: "You're just cynical. Conditioned to believe it isn't possible by a society that is afraid of change."
As for the "smash patriarchy" guy, stop reading tumblr and go read a book.
I hate tumblr. And I study Literature.
On May 21 2013 10:33 Kimaker wrote:
Right there...makes me 99% sure you're trolling.
There is no fear my good sir. Simply convictions.
On May 21 2013 10:34 Cutlery wrote:
..Just no. He is not cynical but realistic. As for your smashing; are you trolling at this point, or would you prefer to live on your own planet?
You actually need those things which you do not like to protect the things you do like.
"You have views I consider extreme, therefore you must be trolling!" I was being slightly hyperbolic for effect but I do want to see these borders broken down.
Some people actually want the world to change. Sometimes revolutionary change is a good thing. I can't be that much of a villain for wanting people to live in harmony as people, rather than constantly dividing people based on social fabrications such as "culture".
And I didn't say anything about fear, Kimaker. I simply think you've been forced into these convictions. Much like the Red Scare.
To begin, I apologize, I genuinely thought you were trolling me. I did not intend that to be insulting.
Moving on...
Are you aware that you're not fighting some monolithic conservative power structure? Are you aware that the left actually won the culture war? Are you aware that for the last 40 years or so Progressivism has been the prevailing ideological motif being expressed in Western society?
Quite frankly, I find your position more insulting. I've clearly been forced into this political and philosophical mindset by my....what? Culture? Parents? Religion? Country? People? Environment? What? Don't be vapid.
No sir, I genuinely disagree with you. I've read the books of the Frankfurt school, I'm well versed in Critical Theory. I've read the Communist Manifesto (4 times) as well as the Doctrina Fascista and (the Progressive Cultural Bible) Guns, Germs and Steel.
I've also read Carlyle, and Machiavelli, and Hobbes. I'm working on the classics, and I've looked at Spengler and Rothbard and Tocqueville.
Larkin, I am not brainwashed, as much as you'd like to think I am. I'm extremely studied. And my studies have honestly led me to these conclusions.
Why would you have a fundamental right/left discussion in this topic? Seems nort really appropriate. Mind you this is a typical American discussion anyway thats quite alien to us Euros and not really interesting.
As for the "smash patriarchy" guy, stop reading tumblr and go read a book.
I hate tumblr. And I study Literature.
On May 21 2013 10:33 Kimaker wrote:
Right there...makes me 99% sure you're trolling.
There is no fear my good sir. Simply convictions.
On May 21 2013 10:34 Cutlery wrote:
..Just no. He is not cynical but realistic. As for your smashing; are you trolling at this point, or would you prefer to live on your own planet?
You actually need those things which you do not like to protect the things you do like.
"You have views I consider extreme, therefore you must be trolling!" I was being slightly hyperbolic for effect but I do want to see these borders broken down.
Some people actually want the world to change. Sometimes revolutionary change is a good thing. I can't be that much of a villain for wanting people to live in harmony as people, rather than constantly dividing people based on social fabrications such as "culture".
And I didn't say anything about fear, Kimaker. I simply think you've been forced into these convictions. Much like the Red Scare.
To begin, I apologize, I genuinely thought you were trolling me. I did not intend that to be insulting.
Moving on...
Are you aware that you're not fighting some monolithic conservative power structure? Are you aware that the left actually won the culture war? Are you aware that for the last 40 years or so Progressivism has been the prevailing ideological motif being expressed in Western society?
Quite frankly, I find your position more insulting. I've clearly been forced into this political and philosophical mindset by my....what? Culture? Parents? Religion? Country? People? Environment? What? Don't be vapid.
No sir, I genuinely disagree with you. I've read the books of the Frankfurt school, I'm well versed in Critical Theory. I've read the Communist Manifesto (4 times) as well as the Doctrina Fascista and (the Progressive Cultural Bible) Guns, Germs and Steel.
I've also read Carlyle, and Machiavelli, and Hobbes. I'm working on the classics, and I've looked at Spengler and Rothbard and Tocqueville.
Larkin, I am not brainwashed, as much as you'd like to think I am. I'm extremely studied. And my studies have honestly led me to these conclusions.
Why would you have a fundamental right/left discussion in this topic? Seems nort really appopriate. Mind you this is a typical American discussion anyway thats quite alien to us Euros and not really interesting.
Fuck. You're right, sorry. Larkin, let's take this to PM.
People are talking a lot about how European countries like Sweden are giving immigrants everything they could need, like food , a roof, money and education, but for me the most problems with immigrants, especially Muslim immigrants, stem from the fact that many European countries seem to share the opinion that integration equals assimilation.
Here in Germany we have similar problems , too. It's not the first generation of Turkish immigrants that get violent, it's the second and the third. And that's, at least in my opinion, mainly because they feel like they can't live their culture or religion anymore. They don't feel accepted by the natives, but they also can't connect to their roots anymore. So they end up with out any orientation or group and get lost and agressive.
I don't see why immigrants can't have mosques and practice their religion in western countries without being frowned upon. A country is whatever the people who live in make out of it.Especially our generations. And i find it really troublesome if a country that has a high number of immigrants does not mirror that. Democracy also implies that minorities get protected and that they can express their culture freely, as long as no one is harmed and it does not violate the law.
For me forcing people who have helped to built up our country(and that's especially true for immigrants in Germany here) to give up their roots and to assimilate is just insulting. These people actually could bring cultural diversity to our countries, but most people seem to be to simple minded and stubborn to acknowledge that.
As for the "smash patriarchy" guy, stop reading tumblr and go read a book.
I hate tumblr. And I study Literature.
On May 21 2013 10:33 Kimaker wrote:
Right there...makes me 99% sure you're trolling.
There is no fear my good sir. Simply convictions.
On May 21 2013 10:34 Cutlery wrote:
..Just no. He is not cynical but realistic. As for your smashing; are you trolling at this point, or would you prefer to live on your own planet?
You actually need those things which you do not like to protect the things you do like.
"You have views I consider extreme, therefore you must be trolling!" I was being slightly hyperbolic for effect but I do want to see these borders broken down.
Some people actually want the world to change. Sometimes revolutionary change is a good thing. I can't be that much of a villain for wanting people to live in harmony as people, rather than constantly dividing people based on social fabrications such as "culture".
And I didn't say anything about fear, Kimaker. I simply think you've been forced into these convictions. Much like the Red Scare.
In the utterly worthless field of theory, of that much I'm certain. I'm so glad we could be graced with such a lofty intellectual, who's studies are of such importance as literature. Please, preach to us from the Ivory Tower about how white racism bourgeoisie science is keeping the world from progressing and being truly multicultural. I'm all ears.
So after your first ad hominem of "go read a book", when I responded that my entire degree is about reading books, you resorted to more ad hominem. Nice one. Going to offer anything productive or just continue with unnecessary insults?
It matters what you're reading and judging from your "smash everything I don't like" rambling incoherence, I can tell the type of drivel you consume. Get back on subject, so we can continue this conversation about Sweden and its immigration problem.
I thought I was very coherant, albeit polemic.
Are you really throwing Dawkins at me and telling me that it matters what I read?
And I think it's pretty clear I support breaking down the society that thinks immigration is a problem, to the point that there are no such things as nationality or race for people to be divided on, only people. I am a person, I live on planet earth. I like some people, I dislike other people, not because of the colour of their skin, beliefs or gender. Is that really too much of a difficult concept to grasp?
If we lived in a world without these concepts people wouldn't feel the need to leave in the first place - and if they did, they wouldn't be welcomed with such hostility.
Well do you best to keep your whimsical imaginings about destroying cultures and people around the world for your fantasy land elsewhere, please. It lends nothing to this thread.
Another video of white racists and their "free speech", how offensive.
As for the "smash patriarchy" guy, stop reading tumblr and go read a book.
I hate tumblr. And I study Literature.
On May 21 2013 10:33 Kimaker wrote:
Right there...makes me 99% sure you're trolling.
There is no fear my good sir. Simply convictions.
On May 21 2013 10:34 Cutlery wrote:
..Just no. He is not cynical but realistic. As for your smashing; are you trolling at this point, or would you prefer to live on your own planet?
You actually need those things which you do not like to protect the things you do like.
"You have views I consider extreme, therefore you must be trolling!" I was being slightly hyperbolic for effect but I do want to see these borders broken down.
Some people actually want the world to change. Sometimes revolutionary change is a good thing. I can't be that much of a villain for wanting people to live in harmony as people, rather than constantly dividing people based on social fabrications such as "culture".
And I didn't say anything about fear, Kimaker. I simply think you've been forced into these convictions. Much like the Red Scare.
In the utterly worthless field of theory, of that much I'm certain. I'm so glad we could be graced with such a lofty intellectual, who's studies are of such importance as literature. Please, preach to us from the Ivory Tower about how white racism bourgeoisie science is keeping the world from progressing and being truly multicultural. I'm all ears.
So after your first ad hominem of "go read a book", when I responded that my entire degree is about reading books, you resorted to more ad hominem. Nice one. Going to offer anything productive or just continue with unnecessary insults?
It matters what you're reading and judging from your "smash everything I don't like" rambling incoherence, I can tell the type of drivel you consume. Get back on subject, so we can continue this conversation about Sweden and its immigration problem.
I thought I was very coherant, albeit polemic.
Are you really throwing Dawkins at me and telling me that it matters what I read?
And I think it's pretty clear I support breaking down the society that thinks immigration is a problem, to the point that there are no such things as nationality or race for people to be divided on, only people. I am a person, I live on planet earth. I like some people, I dislike other people, not because of the colour of their skin, beliefs or gender. Is that really too much of a difficult concept to grasp?
If we lived in a world without these concepts people wouldn't feel the need to leave in the first place - and if they did, they wouldn't be welcomed with such hostility.
Well do you best to keep your whimsical imaginings about destroying cultures and people around the world for your fantasy land elsewhere, please. It lends nothing to this thread. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sskbRzeu6JE Another video of white racists and their "free speech", how offensive.
Please... Fox News, even in Euro we know the type of objective "information" they make.
As for the "smash patriarchy" guy, stop reading tumblr and go read a book.
I hate tumblr. And I study Literature.
On May 21 2013 10:33 Kimaker wrote:
Right there...makes me 99% sure you're trolling.
There is no fear my good sir. Simply convictions.
On May 21 2013 10:34 Cutlery wrote:
..Just no. He is not cynical but realistic. As for your smashing; are you trolling at this point, or would you prefer to live on your own planet?
You actually need those things which you do not like to protect the things you do like.
"You have views I consider extreme, therefore you must be trolling!" I was being slightly hyperbolic for effect but I do want to see these borders broken down.
Some people actually want the world to change. Sometimes revolutionary change is a good thing. I can't be that much of a villain for wanting people to live in harmony as people, rather than constantly dividing people based on social fabrications such as "culture".
And I didn't say anything about fear, Kimaker. I simply think you've been forced into these convictions. Much like the Red Scare.
In the utterly worthless field of theory, of that much I'm certain. I'm so glad we could be graced with such a lofty intellectual, who's studies are of such importance as literature. Please, preach to us from the Ivory Tower about how white racism bourgeoisie science is keeping the world from progressing and being truly multicultural. I'm all ears.
So after your first ad hominem of "go read a book", when I responded that my entire degree is about reading books, you resorted to more ad hominem. Nice one. Going to offer anything productive or just continue with unnecessary insults?
It matters what you're reading and judging from your "smash everything I don't like" rambling incoherence, I can tell the type of drivel you consume. Get back on subject, so we can continue this conversation about Sweden and its immigration problem.
I thought I was very coherant, albeit polemic.
Are you really throwing Dawkins at me and telling me that it matters what I read?
And I think it's pretty clear I support breaking down the society that thinks immigration is a problem, to the point that there are no such things as nationality or race for people to be divided on, only people. I am a person, I live on planet earth. I like some people, I dislike other people, not because of the colour of their skin, beliefs or gender. Is that really too much of a difficult concept to grasp?
If we lived in a world without these concepts people wouldn't feel the need to leave in the first place - and if they did, they wouldn't be welcomed with such hostility.
Well do you best to keep your whimsical imaginings about destroying cultures and people around the world for your fantasy land elsewhere, please. It lends nothing to this thread. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sskbRzeu6JE Another video of white racists and their "free speech", how offensive.
Please... Fox News, even in Euro we know the type of objective "information" they make.
On May 21 2013 10:09 Elem wrote: Hello. I live in Husby (where the riots are taking place) and I've lived here for ~18 years in total. I know many of the ones who are parts of this riots. My neighbour also had his windows busted. I want to make it clear that I am against what they are doing, but I will try to explain a bit more of why it is happening. Feel free to ask me any questions, too.
The problem here is that youth in the area are very frustrated, both at themselves and everyone around them. They want change, but honestly they don't actually know how to bring it properly. The reason for this is that the youth in the area really do not have anyone to look up to or to guide them. A vast majority of the people here (>90%) are immigrants or have immigrant parents. There is no focus on helping youth here, they only focus on bringing in jobs to the total populace. There are no youth centers or clubs once you're out of what, 5th grade? A lot of schools have been shut down too.
Combined with the fact that fathers and mothers who haven't properly learnt the language or know how Sweden works properly cannot help them with their "sweden-issues". Since there is no youth center where people who actually know how Sweden works and can help them with any issue they have and support them properly, where can they turn? Nowhere. They end up confused, and while most will not turn to "thug life" or even further, revolutionist thoughts, some do. And those do influence other confused around them. It's a snowball effect. Music inspiring this behaviour has become very common in these areas in last 5 years or so too. They talk about the police and vastly overexaggerate what actually happens in the area. While police brutality does occasionally happen, its in almost all cases justified.
The government has known of this trend I am very sure. Some of the more uh...civlised? and educated young people in the area (myself included) have talked to local authorities and to local newspapers about the situation for a long long time. They've done nothing. It's people in the area that have tried to set up things, but almost everything has failed.
Worse is that Swedish winters have become increasingly long under these 5 years too. One of the best and favoured ways of relieving their stress from the everyday has been to play Football or Basketball. You can't do that though with 7-8 month long winters. And we don't really have enough space for everyone in the area to play anyway. So they just "hang out" and let those thoughts breed. Sure, they "could" just go and "study" and shit but really what do they have to motivate them but a father or mother at home that doesn't understand their struggle?
How do you think when someone has to take the train to the city to go to school filled with swedish people who literally do whatever they want, can buy anything they want and act like brats?
Yeah, he's gonna feel like shit. Some might be motivated by it but a majority aren't. Stockholm has a VERY low average quality of the early stages of education too. From when people are 12 and onwards, it takes a massive dip. The teachers are idiots who do it for the money and cannot motivate them nor properly teach them. Doesn't help that there is no one there at all to replace them. It's just a huge mess. At least they are working VERY hard to fix the teacher problem.
But yeah, if you got any questions do ask and I'll try and answer before I sleep.
Edit: I would like to say that everything DeepElemBlues has said is bullshit and not at all relevant to the current situation.
On May 21 2013 09:30 aksfjh wrote: If I'm not mistaken, Sweden is very "anti-immigration." Not that they hate the people that come there, but wish them to become Swedish rather than bring in their own heritage.
That's understandable. If everyone brought in other cultures there would be no Swedish culture left anymore. I think immigrants should be able to hold on to some of their identity especially in private but they should also strive to become part of the culture that they move to.
That's absurd. "Strive to become part of the culture" "would be no Swedish culture left anymore" What does that even mean? We're all human beings. It doesn't matter to what part of the world you move to, you can act however you like. Geographic regions/governments do not dictate who you are.
Of course it matters where you live. Sweden being such a religion free society with proper equality rights and all that jazz, I don't want Islam forced upon me. Muslims are trying to use Islam for personal gain and bring bad stuff from their religion that has no place here, or anywhere else for that matter. It's just wrong that things like honor killings are happening here because they bring their stone age shit to Sweden. Or the typical islamic view on women and homosexuals. But things like that are fine by you because "you can act however you like"?
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Ah there we go, throwing the racist card again. Like a true Swede. Your post just screams PC and you sound so bias. The fact that you can't see how Islam (or any other religion for that matter) is so backwards scares me. You almost have to wonder why all of their home countries are fucked up in the first place (hint: religion).
Well, this is has turned into a fascinating discussion about modernism. We have our modernist champion Larkin, and we've already invoked the two figureheads of modernism for the unlearned, Dawkins and Chomsky. They really are perfect because they believe their one discipline should subsume all disciplines (although it's all History in different disguises).
Kimaker- For shame. You should have known from his previous posts that Larkin was serious.Those are the central tenets of Marxism all neatly explained. You have much to learn of the world. :p
Larkin- While your beliefs are no doubt well intended, what you propose would instead aggravate the problem. It doesn't matter where you are, extreme behavior such as this- whether it is riots in LA or Sweden or terrorism- arise because a culture has suffered great violence and the support that should guide these young men is absent. Seeking to erase all culture would be as disastrous as asking them to simply adopt the Swedish culture.
On May 21 2013 11:04 Darkdwarf wrote: -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, riots are not always caused by the same ethnic minority. In Lund, for example, there's a nazist/anti-fascist-riot that happens annually, in November. There we have whites fighting other whites, mostly. When violent demonstrations happen, they're almost always connected to the leftists, who in Sweden are known as stone-throwers.
Any recent sources on this? I've lived in Lund for three years without noticing any riots and Lund is not a big city. Most recent example I can find seem to be from 2008 where violence did occur but nobody was seriously injured. While I might have missed it, it's not like I read the news every single day, I feel like you are misusing the word riot here; which paints quite the inaccurate picture for anyone not from here.
On May 21 2013 09:30 aksfjh wrote: If I'm not mistaken, Sweden is very "anti-immigration." Not that they hate the people that come there, but wish them to become Swedish rather than bring in their own heritage.
That's understandable. If everyone brought in other cultures there would be no Swedish culture left anymore. I think immigrants should be able to hold on to some of their identity especially in private but they should also strive to become part of the culture that they move to.
That's absurd. "Strive to become part of the culture" "would be no Swedish culture left anymore" What does that even mean? We're all human beings. It doesn't matter to what part of the world you move to, you can act however you like. Geographic regions/governments do not dictate who you are.
Of course it matters where you live. Sweden being such a religion free society with proper equality rights and all that jazz, I don't want Islam forced upon me. Muslims are trying to use Islam for personal gain and bring bad stuff from their religion that has no place here, or anywhere else for that matter. It's just wrong that things like honor killings are happening here because they bring their stone age shit to Sweden. Or the typical islamic view on women and homosexuals. But things like that are fine by you because "you can act however you like"?
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Ah there we go, throwing the racist card again. Like a true Swede. Your post just screams PC and you sound so bias. The fact that you can't see how Islam (or any other religion for that matter) is so backwards scares me. You almost have to wonder why all of their home countries are fucked up in the first place (hint: religion).
You are a retard, showing a or several videos of some muslims prohibiting free speech is not the same as all muslims are against free speech. The other post, why was he awarded money? Because he was _forced_ to shake hand regardless of his religious belief. I can refuse to shake hands and my boss cannot force me to do it, i might not get a continuation on that working place but it is his choice, or dont you believe in personal freedom.
On May 21 2013 09:30 aksfjh wrote: If I'm not mistaken, Sweden is very "anti-immigration." Not that they hate the people that come there, but wish them to become Swedish rather than bring in their own heritage.
That's understandable. If everyone brought in other cultures there would be no Swedish culture left anymore. I think immigrants should be able to hold on to some of their identity especially in private but they should also strive to become part of the culture that they move to.
That's absurd. "Strive to become part of the culture" "would be no Swedish culture left anymore" What does that even mean? We're all human beings. It doesn't matter to what part of the world you move to, you can act however you like. Geographic regions/governments do not dictate who you are.
Of course it matters where you live. Sweden being such a religion free society with proper equality rights and all that jazz, I don't want Islam forced upon me. Muslims are trying to use Islam for personal gain and bring bad stuff from their religion that has no place here, or anywhere else for that matter. It's just wrong that things like honor killings are happening here because they bring their stone age shit to Sweden. Or the typical islamic view on women and homosexuals. But things like that are fine by you because "you can act however you like"?
wall of text
Ah there we go, throwing the racist card again. Like a true Swede. Your post just screams PC and you sound so bias. The fact that you can't see how Islam (or any other religion for that matter) is so backwards scares me. You almost have to wonder why all of their home countries are fucked up in the first place (hint: religion).
I don't want to be that guy, but the amount of times you use the word "PC" or "Political Correctness" kind of undermines your whole stance on not "throwing words around".
I hear people complaining about being called racists far more often than I hear people calling other people racists.
OnT:
This isn't a culture or ethnicity problem, this is like everything about class. Ever since we switched government, the amount of violent clashes in working class areas has grown exponentially. It's like Thatcher in the UK. There were an incredible amount of riots in working class areas then and there too, but almost no muslims were present. When you treat working class kids badly and you don't give them any other way to express their feelings, they will start to riot. That's just a historical fact. It might be mindless, yes. It might be unnecessary, yes. But just dismissing it as something that has happened in a vacuum is just mindblowingly ignorant. Instead try to analyze what has happened, and see it for what it is. The last thing these kids need is more blame.
On May 21 2013 11:04 Darkdwarf wrote: -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, riots are not always caused by the same ethnic minority. In Lund, for example, there's a nazist/anti-fascist-riot that happens annually, in November. There we have whites fighting other whites, mostly. When violent demonstrations happen, they're almost always connected to the leftists, who in Sweden are known as stone-throwers.
Any recent sources on this? I've lived in Lund for three years without noticing any riots and Lund is not a big city. Most recent example I can find seem to be from 2008 where violence did occur but nobody was seriously injured. While I might have missed it, it's not like I read the news every single day, I feel like you are misusing the word riot here; which paints quite the inaccurate picture for anyone not from here.
In the 90s Lund was pretty infested with Neo-nazis. They marched annually and antifascists always tried to stop them. They stopped when the neo-nazi movement in Lund almost died out but they marched one more time in 2008. Since then nothing has happened.
On May 21 2013 09:30 aksfjh wrote: If I'm not mistaken, Sweden is very "anti-immigration." Not that they hate the people that come there, but wish them to become Swedish rather than bring in their own heritage.
That's understandable. If everyone brought in other cultures there would be no Swedish culture left anymore. I think immigrants should be able to hold on to some of their identity especially in private but they should also strive to become part of the culture that they move to.
That's absurd. "Strive to become part of the culture" "would be no Swedish culture left anymore" What does that even mean? We're all human beings. It doesn't matter to what part of the world you move to, you can act however you like. Geographic regions/governments do not dictate who you are.
Of course it matters where you live. Sweden being such a religion free society with proper equality rights and all that jazz, I don't want Islam forced upon me. Muslims are trying to use Islam for personal gain and bring bad stuff from their religion that has no place here, or anywhere else for that matter. It's just wrong that things like honor killings are happening here because they bring their stone age shit to Sweden. Or the typical islamic view on women and homosexuals. But things like that are fine by you because "you can act however you like"?
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Ah there we go, throwing the racist card again. Like a true Swede. Your post just screams PC and you sound so bias. The fact that you can't see how Islam (or any other religion for that matter) is so backwards scares me. You almost have to wonder why all of their home countries are fucked up in the first place (hint: religion).
I did not say racist, and I do not believe people who are against immigrants or Islam to be necessarily racist. I didn't say that Islam's not backwards either; I stated that it is painfully obviously not stone-age. I would attribute lots of the problems in the Middle-East and Africa to European imperialism, though. If religion is what fucked up their countries, by necessity, religion should have had Sweden fucked up until just recently, when the state went through secularization. As I previously stated, Sweden is built upon christianity, so thoroughly that it is still written into our constitution that our head of state must be a protestant christian.
On May 21 2013 11:04 Darkdwarf wrote: -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, riots are not always caused by the same ethnic minority. In Lund, for example, there's a nazist/anti-fascist-riot that happens annually, in November. There we have whites fighting other whites, mostly. When violent demonstrations happen, they're almost always connected to the leftists, who in Sweden are known as stone-throwers.
Any recent sources on this? I've lived in Lund for three years without noticing any riots and Lund is not a big city. Most recent example I can find seem to be from 2008 where violence did occur but nobody was seriously injured. While I might have missed it, it's not like I read the news every single day, I feel like you are misusing the word riot here; which paints quite the inaccurate picture for anyone not from here.
Well, riot is probably an overstatement for these events, even though they have resulted in lots of violence and ruffles over the years. The last few years have actually been quite calm, when you point it out, though. Point being that they're kind of as close to riots as we come in most of Sweden.
Blaming imperialism and nazis for things that happened yesterday, I don't even know what's going on anymore but the amount of mental gymnastics going on in here is Olympian.
On May 21 2013 09:30 aksfjh wrote: If I'm not mistaken, Sweden is very "anti-immigration." Not that they hate the people that come there, but wish them to become Swedish rather than bring in their own heritage.
That's understandable. If everyone brought in other cultures there would be no Swedish culture left anymore. I think immigrants should be able to hold on to some of their identity especially in private but they should also strive to become part of the culture that they move to.
That's absurd. "Strive to become part of the culture" "would be no Swedish culture left anymore" What does that even mean? We're all human beings. It doesn't matter to what part of the world you move to, you can act however you like. Geographic regions/governments do not dictate who you are.
Of course it matters where you live. Sweden being such a religion free society with proper equality rights and all that jazz, I don't want Islam forced upon me. Muslims are trying to use Islam for personal gain and bring bad stuff from their religion that has no place here, or anywhere else for that matter. It's just wrong that things like honor killings are happening here because they bring their stone age shit to Sweden. Or the typical islamic view on women and homosexuals. But things like that are fine by you because "you can act however you like"?
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Ah there we go, throwing the racist card again. Like a true Swede. Your post just screams PC and you sound so bias. The fact that you can't see how Islam (or any other religion for that matter) is so backwards scares me. You almost have to wonder why all of their home countries are fucked up in the first place (hint: religion).
I did not say racist, and I do not believe people who are against immigrants or Islam to be necessarily racist. I didn't say that Islam's not backwards either; I stated that it is painfully obviously not stone-age. I would attribute lots of the problems in the Middle-East and Africa to European imperialism, though. If religion is what fucked up their countries, by necessity, religion should have had Sweden fucked up until just recently, when the state went through secularization. As I previously stated, Sweden is built upon christianity, so thoroughly that it is still written into our constitution that our head of state must be a protestant christian.
On May 21 2013 11:04 Darkdwarf wrote: -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, riots are not always caused by the same ethnic minority. In Lund, for example, there's a nazist/anti-fascist-riot that happens annually, in November. There we have whites fighting other whites, mostly. When violent demonstrations happen, they're almost always connected to the leftists, who in Sweden are known as stone-throwers.
Any recent sources on this? I've lived in Lund for three years without noticing any riots and Lund is not a big city. Most recent example I can find seem to be from 2008 where violence did occur but nobody was seriously injured. While I might have missed it, it's not like I read the news every single day, I feel like you are misusing the word riot here; which paints quite the inaccurate picture for anyone not from here.
Well, riot is probably an overstatement for these events, even though they have resulted in lots of violence and ruffles over the years. The last few years have actually been quite calm, when you point it out, though. Point being that they're kind of as close to riots as we come in most of Sweden.
On May 21 2013 10:09 Elem wrote: Hello. I live in Husby (where the riots are taking place) and I've lived here for ~18 years in total. I know many of the ones who are parts of this riots. My neighbour also had his windows busted. I want to make it clear that I am against what they are doing, but I will try to explain a bit more of why it is happening. Feel free to ask me any questions, too.
The problem here is that youth in the area are very frustrated, both at themselves and everyone around them. They want change, but honestly they don't actually know how to bring it properly. The reason for this is that the youth in the area really do not have anyone to look up to or to guide them. A vast majority of the people here (>90%) are immigrants or have immigrant parents. There is no focus on helping youth here, they only focus on bringing in jobs to the total populace. There are no youth centers or clubs once you're out of what, 5th grade? A lot of schools have been shut down too.
Combined with the fact that fathers and mothers who haven't properly learnt the language or know how Sweden works properly cannot help them with their "sweden-issues". Since there is no youth center where people who actually know how Sweden works and can help them with any issue they have and support them properly, where can they turn? Nowhere. They end up confused, and while most will not turn to "thug life" or even further, revolutionist thoughts, some do. And those do influence other confused around them. It's a snowball effect. Music inspiring this behaviour has become very common in these areas in last 5 years or so too. They talk about the police and vastly overexaggerate what actually happens in the area. While police brutality does occasionally happen, its in almost all cases justified.
The government has known of this trend I am very sure. Some of the more uh...civlised? and educated young people in the area (myself included) have talked to local authorities and to local newspapers about the situation for a long long time. They've done nothing. It's people in the area that have tried to set up things, but almost everything has failed.
Worse is that Swedish winters have become increasingly long under these 5 years too. One of the best and favoured ways of relieving their stress from the everyday has been to play Football or Basketball. You can't do that though with 7-8 month long winters. And we don't really have enough space for everyone in the area to play anyway. So they just "hang out" and let those thoughts breed. Sure, they "could" just go and "study" and shit but really what do they have to motivate them but a father or mother at home that doesn't understand their struggle?
How do you think when someone has to take the train to the city to go to school filled with swedish people who literally do whatever they want, can buy anything they want and act like brats?
Yeah, he's gonna feel like shit. Some might be motivated by it but a majority aren't. Stockholm has a VERY low average quality of the early stages of education too. From when people are 12 and onwards, it takes a massive dip. The teachers are idiots who do it for the money and cannot motivate them nor properly teach them. Doesn't help that there is no one there at all to replace them. It's just a huge mess. At least they are working VERY hard to fix the teacher problem.
But yeah, if you got any questions do ask and I'll try and answer before I sleep.
Edit: I would like to say that everything DeepElemBlues has said is bullshit and not at all relevant to the current situation.
I'm a Swede and I second this point. I've spent alot of time in Husby, Rinkeby and Tensta and have personally seen the ways in which the population of these areas appear to be abandoned by society. The young have nobody to look up to. Banks and other employers have chosen to shut down their offices in these areas and move to nearby communities, I mean, the kids don't even see people going to work in the mornings.
Schools and parks are in shit shape and there seems to be no initiative from authorities to take care of integration issues, I can understand - while I strongly disagree with - the frustration felt by the youth. I feel it too when I visit even though I am fortunate to live in an area where these problems don't exist.
EPT
