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On May 21 2013 10:11 Cutlery wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 10:07 alwaysfeeling wrote:On May 21 2013 09:42 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On May 21 2013 09:30 aksfjh wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, Sweden is very "anti-immigration." Not that they hate the people that come there, but wish them to become Swedish rather than bring in their own heritage. That's understandable. If everyone brought in other cultures there would be no Swedish culture left anymore. I think immigrants should be able to hold on to some of their identity especially in private but they should also strive to become part of the culture that they move to. That's absurd. "Strive to become part of the culture" "would be no Swedish culture left anymore" What does that even mean? We're all human beings. It doesn't matter to what part of the world you move to, you can act however you like. Geographic regions/governments do not dictate who you are. Well, this really makes no sense. A lot of the world's population want to live by the teachings of Allah and spread these teachings and pass them as laws in countries with already pretty well-established laws and customs, like sweden. Anarchy isn't really an option. You can NOT act however you like.
No, they are in that sense very respectful towards the laws of sweden. People here realise that you must at least try to live by the rules of your hosts. Especially since swedish laws do not conflict with mandatory, non-extremist parts of muslim life
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Since swedes fled to the states during the "hunger years" 1850-1930. There has always been a excess of immigrants coming to Sweden. The majority of these immigrants have of course been workforce immigrants. But a significant part has been people coming from war zones and more often then not political refugees.
During all of these years different swedish politicians have tried different methods to integrate people as good as possible to their best knowledge. Some more succesful then others.
These 50 kids rioting and burning cars are as someone said before me are probably second generation immigrants and as far as I can see the blame should be with their parents. Not the country they live in that actually provides them with every oppertunity you could think of having a succesful and rich life whatever their religion.
To all of the other internet swedes in this thread. Dont forget to be political correct 
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On May 21 2013 10:12 Elem wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 10:11 Cutlery wrote:On May 21 2013 10:07 alwaysfeeling wrote:On May 21 2013 09:42 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On May 21 2013 09:30 aksfjh wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, Sweden is very "anti-immigration." Not that they hate the people that come there, but wish them to become Swedish rather than bring in their own heritage. That's understandable. If everyone brought in other cultures there would be no Swedish culture left anymore. I think immigrants should be able to hold on to some of their identity especially in private but they should also strive to become part of the culture that they move to. That's absurd. "Strive to become part of the culture" "would be no Swedish culture left anymore" What does that even mean? We're all human beings. It doesn't matter to what part of the world you move to, you can act however you like. Geographic regions/governments do not dictate who you are. Well, this really makes no sense. A lot of the world's population want to live by the teachings of Allah and spread these teachings and pass them as laws in countries with already pretty well-established laws and customs, like sweden. Anarchy isn't really an option. You can NOT act however you like. No, they are in that sense very respectful towards the laws of sweden. People here realise that you must at least try to live by the rules of your hosts. Especially since swedish laws do not conflict with mandatory, non-extremist parts of muslim life
Oh yes, most are, but first generation immigrants aren't always. This causes political problems which people seem to mistake for racism.
But that's not the point. Just look at the middle east. A lot of people there want to spread islam. This is what I said...
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On May 21 2013 10:02 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 09:36 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 21 2013 09:29 Monsen wrote:On May 21 2013 09:17 DeepElemBlues wrote:Gangs of youth Aka gangs of mostly-Muslim youth that Sweden has made little to no effort to assimilate into Swedish society... angered by the police shooting death of an elderly man in a mainly immigrant neighborhood Also angered by the fact that Sweden is quietly a quite racist country.Lots of social problems are just swept under the rug in Europe. Always love it when Americans reveal their ignorance by talking about "Europe" as if it was some kind of nation. Always love it when some smug ignorant European makes himself look dumb. Racism is a pervasive, Europe-wide problem, and there is not one country that is particularly better or worse than any other (except France, they're really bad racists there). Racism is a world wide problem. Your attitude could be construed as racist.
And these progressive rioters are an example of why the "racist" detractors are so wrong, eh? Such a beautiful strong people, they are fighting against the oppressive white swedes who don't give them everything for free. It's so racist that they don't give these people mansions and pay them millions of SEK per year simply to grace Sweden with their culturally enriching presence.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&u=http://www.dagbladet.no/2013/05/20/nyheter/husby/stockholm/opptoyer/27267831/&prev=/search?q=2013/05/20/nyheter/husby/stockholm/opptoyer/27267831/&biw=1680&bih=959
Allah ackbar, indeed.
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On May 21 2013 10:09 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 10:02 Larkin wrote:On May 21 2013 09:36 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 21 2013 09:29 Monsen wrote:On May 21 2013 09:17 DeepElemBlues wrote:Gangs of youth Aka gangs of mostly-Muslim youth that Sweden has made little to no effort to assimilate into Swedish society... angered by the police shooting death of an elderly man in a mainly immigrant neighborhood Also angered by the fact that Sweden is quietly a quite racist country.Lots of social problems are just swept under the rug in Europe. Always love it when Americans reveal their ignorance by talking about "Europe" as if it was some kind of nation. Always love it when some smug ignorant European makes himself look dumb. Racism is a pervasive, Europe-wide problem, and there is not one country that is particularly better or worse than any other (except France, they're really bad racists there). Racism is a world wide problem. Your attitude could be construed as racist. I don't necessarily think it's a problem. It depends how it manifests. The colloquial usage of racism is far too broadly defined to be of any substantive use and includes many innocuous forms of "racism". I wouldn't say racial pride, race realism, racial separatism, etc are really "bad" by definition and range from totally innocent to being genuinely beneficial to a persons psychological well-being. On the other hand exterminate everyone not like us, or even we are inherently superior to these sub-humans are pretty bad...
That kind of attitude is preventing the human race from progressing. Nationalism is an outdated concept that ought to be broken down so that we can progress together, and not be bogged down by issues of race, religion, or gender.
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On May 21 2013 10:09 Elem wrote:
Hello. I live in Husby (where the riots are taking place) and I've lived here for ~18 years in total. I know many of the ones who are parts of this riots. My neighbour also had his windows busted. I want to make it clear that I am against what they are doing, but I will try to explain a bit more of why it is happening. Feel free to ask me any questions, too.
The problem here is that youth in the area are very frustrated, both at themselves and everyone around them. They want change, but honestly they don't actually know how to bring it properly. The reason for this is that the youth in the area really do not have anyone to look up to or to guide them. A vast majority of the people here (>90%) are immigrants or have immigrant parents. There is no focus on helping youth here, they only focus on bringing in jobs to the total populace. There are no youth centers or clubs once you're out of what, 5th grade? A lot of schools have been shut down too.
Combined with the fact that fathers and mothers who haven't properly learnt the language or know how Sweden works properly cannot help them with their "sweden-issues". Since there is no youth center where people who actually know how Sweden works and can help them with any issue they have and support them properly, where can they turn? Nowhere. They end up confused, and while most will not turn to "thug life" or even further, revolutionist thoughts, some do. And those do influence other confused around them. It's a snowball effect. Music inspiring this behaviour has become very common in these areas in last 5 years or so too. They talk about the police and vastly overexaggerate what actually happens in the area. While police brutality does occasionally happen, its in almost all cases justified.
The government has known of this trend I am very sure. Some of the more uh...civlised? and educated young people in the area (myself included) have talked to local authorities and to local newspapers about the situation for a long long time. They've done nothing. It's people in the area that have tried to set up things, but almost everything has failed.
Worse is that Swedish winters have become increasingly long under these 5 years too. One of the best and favoured ways of relieving their stress from the everyday has been to play Football or Basketball. You can't do that though with 7-8 month long winters. And we don't really have enough space for everyone in the area to play anyway. So they just "hang out" and let those thoughts breed. Sure, they "could" just go and "study" and shit but really what do they have to motivate them but a father or mother at home that doesn't understand their struggle?
How do you think when someone has to take the train to the city to go to school filled with swedish people who literally do whatever they want, can buy anything they want and act like brats?
Yeah, he's gonna feel like shit. Some might be motivated by it but a majority aren't. Stockholm has a VERY low average quality of the early stages of education too. From when people are 12 and onwards, it takes a massive dip. The teachers are idiots who do it for the money and cannot motivate them nor properly teach them. Doesn't help that there is no one there at all to replace them. It's just a huge mess. At least they are working VERY hard to fix the teacher problem.
But yeah, if you got any questions do ask and I'll try and answer before I sleep.
Edit: I would like to say that everything DeepElemBlues has said is bullshit and not at all relevant to the current situation.
Thank you for your input. Sounds like a typical urban environment in the States, except harsher.
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On May 21 2013 10:07 alwaysfeeling wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 09:42 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On May 21 2013 09:30 aksfjh wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, Sweden is very "anti-immigration." Not that they hate the people that come there, but wish them to become Swedish rather than bring in their own heritage. That's understandable. If everyone brought in other cultures there would be no Swedish culture left anymore. I think immigrants should be able to hold on to some of their identity especially in private but they should also strive to become part of the culture that they move to. That's absurd. "Strive to become part of the culture" "would be no Swedish culture left anymore" What does that even mean? We're all human beings. It doesn't matter to what part of the world you move to, you can act however you like. Geographic regions/governments do not dictate who you are.
Total nonsense.
You have elected to completely ignore culture, society, traditions, and human psychology. You can NOT act however you want. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Views like yours are destructive to the very societies they were cultivated in.
On May 21 2013 10:15 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 10:09 Kimaker wrote:On May 21 2013 10:02 Larkin wrote:On May 21 2013 09:36 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 21 2013 09:29 Monsen wrote:On May 21 2013 09:17 DeepElemBlues wrote:Gangs of youth Aka gangs of mostly-Muslim youth that Sweden has made little to no effort to assimilate into Swedish society... angered by the police shooting death of an elderly man in a mainly immigrant neighborhood Also angered by the fact that Sweden is quietly a quite racist country.Lots of social problems are just swept under the rug in Europe. Always love it when Americans reveal their ignorance by talking about "Europe" as if it was some kind of nation. Always love it when some smug ignorant European makes himself look dumb. Racism is a pervasive, Europe-wide problem, and there is not one country that is particularly better or worse than any other (except France, they're really bad racists there). Racism is a world wide problem. Your attitude could be construed as racist. I don't necessarily think it's a problem. It depends how it manifests. The colloquial usage of racism is far too broadly defined to be of any substantive use and includes many innocuous forms of "racism". I wouldn't say racial pride, race realism, racial separatism, etc are really "bad" by definition and range from totally innocent to being genuinely beneficial to a persons psychological well-being. On the other hand exterminate everyone not like us, or even we are inherently superior to these sub-humans are pretty bad... That kind of attitude is preventing the human race from progressing. Nationalism is an outdated concept that ought to be broken down so that we can progress together, and not be bogged down by issues of race, religion, or gender.
That's nothing but a flight of progressive fancy. I'd like to agree. I would. But it's just not workable.
Races exist. Fuck, cultures exist and many times are incompatible with one another, and culture tends to delineate along racial lines.
The sexes are different. Feminism is ultimately destructive to society. Men and women are supposed to be partners, not two copies of one another.
Religions are different. Just the division between Islam and Christianity is ludicrous: They're both actively proselytizing religions whose next target converts happen to be the same people (everyone).
I wouldn't say those ideas prevent us from progressing. Quite the contrary, it is through conflict and adversity resulting from human interaction (read war, religious, economic, social competition) that our greatest achievements manifest. The bucolic passivity of the world vision you seem to be talking about is not only impossible, but detrimental to humanity.
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On May 21 2013 10:17 Kimaker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 10:07 alwaysfeeling wrote:On May 21 2013 09:42 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On May 21 2013 09:30 aksfjh wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, Sweden is very "anti-immigration." Not that they hate the people that come there, but wish them to become Swedish rather than bring in their own heritage. That's understandable. If everyone brought in other cultures there would be no Swedish culture left anymore. I think immigrants should be able to hold on to some of their identity especially in private but they should also strive to become part of the culture that they move to. That's absurd. "Strive to become part of the culture" "would be no Swedish culture left anymore" What does that even mean? We're all human beings. It doesn't matter to what part of the world you move to, you can act however you like. Geographic regions/governments do not dictate who you are. Total nonsense. You have elected to completely ignore culture, society, traditions, and human psychology. You can NOT act however you want. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Views like yours are destructive to the very societies they were cultivated in.
Admitting people aren't equal is a sin to the very type of people you're talking to/about. They wont acknowledge differences in any of these things because it's tantamount to being a racist/nationalist/what have you.
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massive immigration of uneducated people from different cultures in systems that provide for the poor is never going to work. Sadly, the problem is here now and nobody has the guts to name it (well, if you do you are a racist). In the meantime, the import of low class immigrants is picking up speed in Europe.
It IS important to note that the current situation is not the fault of immigrants but bad policy, though I'd like to argue that a more forceful institutional response could reduce the tensions.
The sad thing is that sooner or later, there will be backlashes from the natives against immigrants because of this, I hope someone has the right idea before this happens to prevent it from occuring or we have 19/20th. cent. all over again.
also lol @ the remark that europe is extremely racist. Ever been to any other part of the world?
It's everywhere to a certain extent, and europe is surely not the problem child in this department.
E: also Kimaker is right.
Also I am not entirely sure, but I think under international law, one could argue that western cultures currently commit auto-genocide. I bet professors will scratch their heads over this in 300 years :S
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Wow. Considering it's next to Finland's elite school system, Sweden's education system seems like a real letdown...
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say no to racism - fifa 2006-13
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So, should NATO intervene in Sweden?
Swedens military is prolly less scary then Syrias. I think we should save those those surpressed souls from the swedish tyranny
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On May 21 2013 10:21 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Wow. Considering it's next to Finland's elite school system, Sweden's education system seems like a real letdown...
No opinion just statistics here.
Finland has 2.7 % first generation immigrants.
Sweden has about 15% first generation immigrants.
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On May 21 2013 10:07 alwaysfeeling wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 09:42 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On May 21 2013 09:30 aksfjh wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, Sweden is very "anti-immigration." Not that they hate the people that come there, but wish them to become Swedish rather than bring in their own heritage. That's understandable. If everyone brought in other cultures there would be no Swedish culture left anymore. I think immigrants should be able to hold on to some of their identity especially in private but they should also strive to become part of the culture that they move to. That's absurd. "Strive to become part of the culture" "would be no Swedish culture left anymore" What does that even mean? We're all human beings. It doesn't matter to what part of the world you move to, you can act however you like. Geographic regions/governments do not dictate who you are.
Of course it matters where you live. Sweden being such a religion free society with proper equality rights and all that jazz, I don't want Islam forced upon me. Muslims are trying to use Islam for personal gain and bring bad stuff from their religion that has no place here, or anywhere else for that matter. It's just wrong that things like honor killings are happening here because they bring their stone age shit to Sweden. Or the typical islamic view on women and homosexuals. But things like that are fine by you because "you can act however you like"?
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On May 21 2013 09:29 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 09:17 DeepElemBlues wrote:Gangs of youth Aka gangs of mostly-Muslim youth that Sweden has made little to no effort to assimilate into Swedish society... angered by the police shooting death of an elderly man in a mainly immigrant neighborhood Also angered by the fact that Sweden is quietly a quite racist country.Lots of social problems are just swept under the rug in Europe. Always love it when Americans reveal their ignorance by talking about "Europe" as if it was some kind of nation.
Looooooooooooool look another sterotypical European poster, whenever someone brings up social problems in a European country it comes back around to American, good logic bro.
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On May 21 2013 09:30 aksfjh wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, Sweden is very "anti-immigration." Not that they hate the people that come there, but wish them to become Swedish rather than bring in their own heritage.
No Sweden is extremely "pro-immigration" since they like to be the world conscience just like USA is the world police. Also they are not about assimilation at all but intergration.
They bite off more than they can chew to look good and now it's coming back to bite them.
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On May 21 2013 10:17 Kimaker wrote:
That's nothing but a flight of progressive fancy. I'd like to agree. I would. But it's just not workable.
Races exist. Fuck, cultures exist and many times are incompatible with one another, and culture tends to delineate along racial lines.
The sexes are different. Feminism is ultimately destructive to society. Men and women are supposed to be partners, not two copies of one another.
Religions are different. Just the division between Islam and Christianity is ludicrous: They're both actively proselytizing religions whose next target converts happen to be the same people (everyone).
I wouldn't say those ideas prevent us from progressing. Quite the contrary, it is through conflict and adversity resulting from human interaction (read war, religious, economic, social competition) that our greatest achievements manifest. The bucolic passivity of the world vision you seem to be talking about is not only impossible, but detrimental to humanity.
You're just cynical. Conditioned to believe it isn't possible by a society that is afraid of change. Smash racial divides. Smash gender conflict. Smash religion. Smash patriarchy.
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On May 21 2013 10:15 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 10:09 Kimaker wrote:On May 21 2013 10:02 Larkin wrote:On May 21 2013 09:36 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 21 2013 09:29 Monsen wrote:On May 21 2013 09:17 DeepElemBlues wrote:Gangs of youth Aka gangs of mostly-Muslim youth that Sweden has made little to no effort to assimilate into Swedish society... angered by the police shooting death of an elderly man in a mainly immigrant neighborhood Also angered by the fact that Sweden is quietly a quite racist country.Lots of social problems are just swept under the rug in Europe. Always love it when Americans reveal their ignorance by talking about "Europe" as if it was some kind of nation. Always love it when some smug ignorant European makes himself look dumb. Racism is a pervasive, Europe-wide problem, and there is not one country that is particularly better or worse than any other (except France, they're really bad racists there). Racism is a world wide problem. Your attitude could be construed as racist. I don't necessarily think it's a problem. It depends how it manifests. The colloquial usage of racism is far too broadly defined to be of any substantive use and includes many innocuous forms of "racism". I wouldn't say racial pride, race realism, racial separatism, etc are really "bad" by definition and range from totally innocent to being genuinely beneficial to a persons psychological well-being. On the other hand exterminate everyone not like us, or even we are inherently superior to these sub-humans are pretty bad... That kind of attitude is preventing the human race from progressing. Nationalism is an outdated concept that ought to be broken down so that we can progress together, and not be bogged down by issues of race, religion, or gender.
I think borders will play an even bigger role in the future tbh. Issues exist, and we wish to protect ourselves so at least we can have control at home.
I'm not entirely sure that Utopia is just around the corner, nor even the next step.
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On May 21 2013 09:41 grobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 09:36 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 21 2013 09:29 Monsen wrote:On May 21 2013 09:17 DeepElemBlues wrote:Gangs of youth Aka gangs of mostly-Muslim youth that Sweden has made little to no effort to assimilate into Swedish society... angered by the police shooting death of an elderly man in a mainly immigrant neighborhood Also angered by the fact that Sweden is quietly a quite racist country.Lots of social problems are just swept under the rug in Europe. Always love it when Americans reveal their ignorance by talking about "Europe" as if it was some kind of nation. Always love it when some smug ignorant European makes himself look dumb. Your continent is the most racist place in the world outside of the Middle East or Asia. Just start any thread about Roma here at TL and watch the hate from France to Poland and everywhere in between pour in. Just look at the football hooliganism racism that stains European football. Just look at the riots in France, the riots in England, the riots now in Sweden, riots of the mostly-brown-skinned against the mostly-white-skinned powers that be. Why? Because for some reason, in heaven on earth, Europe, people who don't have white skin seem to have big trouble getting out of poverty, getting a quality education, getting hired at quality jobs. Where's all that social welfare spending going that white people in Europe are doing so much better than non-white people? Adding to the last two links I posted: http://www.publicserviceeurope.com/article/3249/racism-and-discrimination-still-pervasive-in-europehttp://cms.horus.be/files/99935/MediaArchive/pdfpress/13-03-20 shadow report 2011-12 final.pdfhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/04/racism-europe-football-editorialhttp://www.dw.de/racism-increases-in-greece/a-16773119I could go on and on but it's not really necessary. Racism is a pervasive, Europe-wide problem, and there is not one country that is particularly better or worse than any other (except France, they're really bad racists there). Are you fucking kidding me? Racism is everywhere, there's no way to gauge who is worse when it comes to racism.
Asia is horrifically racist. Anyone who has been there for any length of time or tried dating a local over there knows.
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On May 21 2013 10:27 Eatme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2013 09:30 aksfjh wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, Sweden is very "anti-immigration." Not that they hate the people that come there, but wish them to become Swedish rather than bring in their own heritage. No Sweden is extremely "pro-immigration" since they like to be the world conscience just like USA is the world police. Also they are not about assimilation at all but intergration. They bite off more than they can chew to look good and now it's coming back to bite them.
Why are you so wise and spot on?
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EPT
