On May 21 2013 09:30 aksfjh wrote: If I'm not mistaken, Sweden is very "anti-immigration." Not that they hate the people that come there, but wish them to become Swedish rather than bring in their own heritage.
That's understandable. If everyone brought in other cultures there would be no Swedish culture left anymore. I think immigrants should be able to hold on to some of their identity especially in private but they should also strive to become part of the culture that they move to.
That's absurd. "Strive to become part of the culture" "would be no Swedish culture left anymore" What does that even mean? We're all human beings. It doesn't matter to what part of the world you move to, you can act however you like. Geographic regions/governments do not dictate who you are.
Total nonsense.
You have elected to completely ignore culture, society, traditions, and human psychology. You can NOT act however you want. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Views like yours are destructive to the very societies they were cultivated in.
Admitting people aren't equal is a sin to the very type of people you're talking to/about. They wont acknowledge differences in any of these things because it's tantamount to being a racist/nationalist/what have you.
Yes but its important to note that by allowing immigrants to retain and express their own culture, we replace nationalism of one country with nationalists of a whole bunch. That's how civil wars start, people loyal to a part of the whole instead of the whole itself. Confederacy in the USA, Chechens in Russia, Muslims in India. Mexico lost a huge part of itself because Americans immigrated into Texas (which was part of Mexico) but didn't want to assimilate, and eventually broke free and asked the US to annex them.
Even with the "When in Rome" maxim, Rome lasted a little longer than it should have because the Germanic tribes who came in first assimilated into Roman culture. Later ones didn't and Rome fragmented to the end.
Edit: quoted the wrong guy, its really more of a reply to alwaysfeeling's sentiment.
On May 21 2013 10:17 Kimaker wrote: That's nothing but a flight of progressive fancy. I'd like to agree. I would. But it's just not workable.
Races exist. Fuck, cultures exist and many times are incompatible with one another, and culture tends to delineate along racial lines.
The sexes are different. Feminism is ultimately destructive to society. Men and women are supposed to be partners, not two copies of one another.
Religions are different. Just the division between Islam and Christianity is ludicrous: They're both actively proselytizing religions whose next target converts happen to be the same people (everyone).
I wouldn't say those ideas prevent us from progressing. Quite the contrary, it is through conflict and adversity resulting from human interaction (read war, religious, economic, social competition) that our greatest achievements manifest. The bucolic passivity of the world vision you seem to be talking about is not only impossible, but detrimental to humanity.
You're just cynical. Conditioned to believe it isn't possible by a society that is afraid of change. Smash racial divides. Smash gender conflict. Smash religion. Smash patriarchy.
On May 21 2013 10:17 Kimaker wrote: That's nothing but a flight of progressive fancy. I'd like to agree. I would. But it's just not workable.
Races exist. Fuck, cultures exist and many times are incompatible with one another, and culture tends to delineate along racial lines.
The sexes are different. Feminism is ultimately destructive to society. Men and women are supposed to be partners, not two copies of one another.
Religions are different. Just the division between Islam and Christianity is ludicrous: They're both actively proselytizing religions whose next target converts happen to be the same people (everyone).
I wouldn't say those ideas prevent us from progressing. Quite the contrary, it is through conflict and adversity resulting from human interaction (read war, religious, economic, social competition) that our greatest achievements manifest. The bucolic passivity of the world vision you seem to be talking about is not only impossible, but detrimental to humanity.
You're just cynical. Conditioned to believe it isn't possible by a society that is afraid of change. Smash racial divides. Smash gender conflict. Smash religion. Smash patriarchy.
..Just no. He is not cynical but realistic. As for your smashing; are you trolling at this point, or would you prefer to live on your own planet?
You actually need those things which you do not like to protect the things you do like.
Aka gangs of mostly-Muslim youth that Sweden has made little to no effort to assimilate into Swedish society...
How do you mean? They come here, get roof over their heads, food on the table, free education (you even get money monthly for studying here), their parents gets compensated economically to just live and learn Swedish and other kinds of education if they don't work. There is a massive housing shortage in Sweden so they naturally seek to each other out in the suburbs (which indeed is really bad for everyone involved) But they don't even try themselves, you gotta have some willpower if you want to get somewhere.
These people are also most likely second generation immigrants being born here and they have nothing to blame their "failure" of getting into society on. There are tons of second and third generation immigrants that behaved like a normal person growing up and put in the effort in school to become something instead of hanging around with their countrymen playing gangster with the "Fuck Sweden and the police"-attitude that is so common.
I am eagerly awaiting a response from DeepElemBlues on this. It seems like he was completely uninformed. What more can a country do to help its immigrants than what Sweden does? If those immigrants cannot be peaceful in Sweden then they can't be peaceful anywhere in the West.
On May 21 2013 09:19 JacobDaKung wrote: Young angry frustrated people do stupid shit, i think this has less to do with minority/race what not rather then the frustration that no jobs can be found. Also the police are sadly under represented on the street, they dont seem to patrol at all just engage when called upon,
Except every time there's a riot that's being reported, it's started by one racial group. A hint: You can hear Allah Akbar during these riots.
I disagree. The riots in England were from multiple racial groups with different ethnic and religious backgrounds.
The two main groups in the English riots were white-skinned English trash with no religion and brown-skinned trash with the Muslim religion.
Doesn't change the fact that in the major non-Greek riots in Europe the last ten years the main perpetrators or a major group of the perpetrators were poor brown-skinned Muslims. Who were/are rioting because the white-skinned people who make the decisions don't give two fucks about them.
I live in Clapham Junction, I walked down my high street as the riots were going on. There was looting, they set fire to multiple shops and trashed the area that I have lived in for the last 15 years. In my particular area the racial balance was mostly black and white and both groups were non-muslim. They were poor people who simply jumped on a bandwagon as they heard about other surrounding areas requiring so much police support and they realised that they could have a free shopping spree. I posted a lengthy post about it on this site the day after.
Please dont talk out of your fucking arse.
As the other Brits have posted this was nothing to do with race or religion. The next day they simply went back to mugging, stealing and dealing drugs because they were gang members (in Clapham Junction). I was a witness along with many others who provided information to the Police which helped convict some of these people. The riots started in an area of Tottenham the day before because a drug dealer who was carrying a gun was shot. Wouldn't that also happen int he good old US of A?
The last time we had race riots was in Brixton in the 80's which is less recently than the Rodney King riots in your country.
Every country that has experienced mass immigration in the world has racism, including the US. Pot, Kettle, Black.
Aka gangs of mostly-Muslim youth that Sweden has made little to no effort to assimilate into Swedish society...
How do you mean? They come here, get roof over their heads, food on the table, free education (you even get money monthly for studying here), their parents gets compensated economically to just live and learn Swedish and other kinds of education if they don't work. There is a massive housing shortage in Sweden so they naturally seek to each other out in the suburbs (which indeed is really bad for everyone involved) But they don't even try themselves, you gotta have some willpower if you want to get somewhere.
These people are also most likely second generation immigrants being born here and they have nothing to blame their "failure" of getting into society on. There are tons of second and third generation immigrants that behaved like a normal person growing up and put in the effort in school to become something instead of hanging around with their countrymen playing gangster with the "Fuck Sweden and the police"-attitude that is so common.
I am eagerly awaiting a response from DeepElemBlues on this. It seems like he was completely uninformed. What more can a country do to help its immigrants than what Sweden does? If those immigrants cannot be peaceful in Sweden then they can't be peaceful anywhere in the West.
Aka gangs of mostly-Muslim youth that Sweden has made little to no effort to assimilate into Swedish society...
How do you mean? They come here, get roof over their heads, food on the table, free education (you even get money monthly for studying here), their parents gets compensated economically to just live and learn Swedish and other kinds of education if they don't work. There is a massive housing shortage in Sweden so they naturally seek to each other out in the suburbs (which indeed is really bad for everyone involved) But they don't even try themselves, you gotta have some willpower if you want to get somewhere.
These people are also most likely second generation immigrants being born here and they have nothing to blame their "failure" of getting into society on. There are tons of second and third generation immigrants that behaved like a normal person growing up and put in the effort in school to become something instead of hanging around with their countrymen playing gangster with the "Fuck Sweden and the police"-attitude that is so common.
I am eagerly awaiting a response from DeepElemBlues on this. It seems like he was completely uninformed. What more can a country do to help its immigrants than what Sweden does? If those immigrants cannot be peaceful in Sweden then they can't be peaceful anywhere in the West.
Immigrants need to make a better effort to integrate and countries need to make a better effort to integrate as well. You can't expect to move to a new country and live exactly like you did in your old. I mean if you want to be a Swedish citizen you have to accept their culture, because that's what makes the country what it is and makes people want to immigrate there in the first place.
Aka gangs of mostly-Muslim youth that Sweden has made little to no effort to assimilate into Swedish society...
How do you mean? They come here, get roof over their heads, food on the table, free education (you even get money monthly for studying here), their parents gets compensated economically to just live and learn Swedish and other kinds of education if they don't work. There is a massive housing shortage in Sweden so they naturally seek to each other out in the suburbs (which indeed is really bad for everyone involved) But they don't even try themselves, you gotta have some willpower if you want to get somewhere.
These people are also most likely second generation immigrants being born here and they have nothing to blame their "failure" of getting into society on. There are tons of second and third generation immigrants that behaved like a normal person growing up and put in the effort in school to become something instead of hanging around with their countrymen playing gangster with the "Fuck Sweden and the police"-attitude that is so common.
I am eagerly awaiting a response from DeepElemBlues on this. It seems like he was completely uninformed. What more can a country do to help its immigrants than what Sweden does? If those immigrants cannot be peaceful in Sweden then they can't be peaceful anywhere in the West.
In Canada... we riot over Hockey, I can't say to much about oppressed people rioting over their rights. That being said I would argue that this is a bit sensationalist... it wasn't even a 'riot'... 50 young people throwing rocks around because they're angry at a mistake that was made hardly constitutes as a 'riot' if not just social unrest.
Aka gangs of mostly-Muslim youth that Sweden has made little to no effort to assimilate into Swedish society...
How do you mean? They come here, get roof over their heads, food on the table, free education (you even get money monthly for studying here), their parents gets compensated economically to just live and learn Swedish and other kinds of education if they don't work. There is a massive housing shortage in Sweden so they naturally seek to each other out in the suburbs (which indeed is really bad for everyone involved) But they don't even try themselves, you gotta have some willpower if you want to get somewhere.
These people are also most likely second generation immigrants being born here and they have nothing to blame their "failure" of getting into society on. There are tons of second and third generation immigrants that behaved like a normal person growing up and put in the effort in school to become something instead of hanging around with their countrymen playing gangster with the "Fuck Sweden and the police"-attitude that is so common.
I am eagerly awaiting a response from DeepElemBlues on this. It seems like he was completely uninformed. What more can a country do to help its immigrants than what Sweden does? If those immigrants cannot be peaceful in Sweden then they can't be peaceful anywhere in the West.
He's actually the only one providing facts via links to major news sites. The rest of you are pretty much just typing what's on your mind and nothing else. I find it very ironic that you would call him "completely uninformed".
On May 21 2013 10:47 Hitch-22 wrote: In Canada... we riot over Hockey, I can't say to much about oppressed people rioting over their rights. That being said I would argue that this is a bit sensationalist... it wasn't even a 'riot'... 50 young people throwing rocks around because they're angry at a mistake that was made.
You not see that video I posted? Burning cars, assaulting cops, damaging property. That's pretty riot-y, wouldn't you say?
As for the "smash patriarchy" guy, stop reading tumblr and go read a book.
I hate tumblr. And I study Literature.
On May 21 2013 10:33 Kimaker wrote:
Right there...makes me 99% sure you're trolling.
There is no fear my good sir. Simply convictions.
On May 21 2013 10:34 Cutlery wrote:
..Just no. He is not cynical but realistic. As for your smashing; are you trolling at this point, or would you prefer to live on your own planet?
You actually need those things which you do not like to protect the things you do like.
"You have views I consider extreme, therefore you must be trolling!" I was being slightly hyperbolic for effect but I do want to see these borders broken down.
Some people actually want the world to change. Sometimes revolutionary change is a good thing. I can't be that much of a villain for wanting people to live in harmony as people, rather than constantly dividing people based on social fabrications such as "culture".
And I didn't say anything about fear, Kimaker. I simply think you've been forced into these convictions. Much like the Red Scare.
Aka gangs of mostly-Muslim youth that Sweden has made little to no effort to assimilate into Swedish society...
How do you mean? They come here, get roof over their heads, food on the table, free education (you even get money monthly for studying here), their parents gets compensated economically to just live and learn Swedish and other kinds of education if they don't work. There is a massive housing shortage in Sweden so they naturally seek to each other out in the suburbs (which indeed is really bad for everyone involved) But they don't even try themselves, you gotta have some willpower if you want to get somewhere.
These people are also most likely second generation immigrants being born here and they have nothing to blame their "failure" of getting into society on. There are tons of second and third generation immigrants that behaved like a normal person growing up and put in the effort in school to become something instead of hanging around with their countrymen playing gangster with the "Fuck Sweden and the police"-attitude that is so common.
I am eagerly awaiting a response from DeepElemBlues on this. It seems like he was completely uninformed. What more can a country do to help its immigrants than what Sweden does? If those immigrants cannot be peaceful in Sweden then they can't be peaceful anywhere in the West.
He's actually the only one providing facts via links to major news sites. The rest of you are pretty much just typing what's on your mind and nothing else. I find it very ironic that you would call him "completely uninformed".
..Just no. He is not cynical but realistic. As for your smashing; are you trolling at this point, or would you prefer to live on your own planet?
You actually need those things which you do not like to protect the things you do like.
"You have views I consider extreme, therefore you must be trolling!" I was being slightly hyperbolic for effect but I do want to see these borders broken down.
Some people actually want the world to change. Sometimes revolutionary change is a good thing. I can't be that much of a villain for wanting people to live in harmony as people, rather than constantly dividing people based on social fabrications such as "culture".
And I didn't say anything about fear, Kimaker. I simply think you've been forced into these convictions. Much like the Red Scare.
In the utterly worthless field of theory, of that much I'm certain. I'm so glad we could be graced with such a lofty intellectual, who's studies are of such importance as literature. Please, preach to us from the Ivory Tower about how white racism bourgeoisie science is keeping the world from progressing and being truly multicultural. I'm all ears.
Too bad even the leftists tend to hate you literary "critic" types.
He's actually the only one providing facts via links to major news sites. The rest of you are pretty much just typing what's on your mind and nothing else. I find it very ironic that you would call him "completely uninformed".
You do realise that most of us calling him a moron actually live in the bloody countries and dont need a news article to actually talk? We've seen this shit and we actually know the situation.
On May 21 2013 10:47 Hitch-22 wrote: In Canada... we riot over Hockey, I can't say to much about oppressed people rioting over their rights. That being said I would argue that this is a bit sensationalist... it wasn't even a 'riot'... 50 young people throwing rocks around because they're angry at a mistake that was made.
They have set alight 20+ cars over the past 2 days, they smashed up the local subway station too and attacked houses and a daycare. People too. It's not exactly Vancouver but it's definitively civil unrest occuring in this area.
Lots of social problems are just swept under the rug in Europe.
Always love it when Americans reveal their ignorance by talking about "Europe" as if it was some kind of nation.
Always love it when some smug ignorant European makes himself look dumb.
Your continent is the most racist place in the world outside of the Middle East or Asia. Just start any thread about Roma here at TL and watch the hate from France to Poland and everywhere in between pour in. Just look at the football hooliganism racism that stains European football. Just look at the riots in France, the riots in England, the riots now in Sweden, riots of the mostly-brown-skinned against the mostly-white-skinned powers that be. Why? Because for some reason, in heaven on earth, Europe, people who don't have white skin seem to have big trouble getting out of poverty, getting a quality education, getting hired at quality jobs. Where's all that social welfare spending going that white people in Europe are doing so much better than non-white people?
I could go on and on but it's not really necessary.
Racism is a pervasive, Europe-wide problem, and there is not one country that is particularly better or worse than any other (except France, they're really bad racists there).
We have our own problem, it's totally true. But please, look at your own country. We are maybe the "most racist continent" but we don't build a wall in our border and have citizens with guns who killed mexicans, we had no segregation just 50 years ago... The per capita income of the Afro americans and Latinos in US is still at 60% of the white one, the prison are 80% black, and you have your own extremist who hates what is not WASP. Plus i don't forget the americans riots in the 90's in the black ghetto. I don't blame it, we have our own problem too, and in France we have our racists (but it's not all the population like you said, even if the FN made 20% at the last election), but please stop generalisation and say we are the biggest racists on earth, like if US are the best anti racist place since Obama was elect. It's not a competition and every country have problem with racism and intolerence.
As for the "smash patriarchy" guy, stop reading tumblr and go read a book.
I hate tumblr. And I study Literature.
On May 21 2013 10:33 Kimaker wrote:
Right there...makes me 99% sure you're trolling.
There is no fear my good sir. Simply convictions.
On May 21 2013 10:34 Cutlery wrote:
..Just no. He is not cynical but realistic. As for your smashing; are you trolling at this point, or would you prefer to live on your own planet?
You actually need those things which you do not like to protect the things you do like.
"You have views I consider extreme, therefore you must be trolling!" I was being slightly hyperbolic for effect but I do want to see these borders broken down.
Some people actually want the world to change. Sometimes revolutionary change is a good thing. I can't be that much of a villain for wanting people to live in harmony as people, rather than constantly dividing people based on social fabrications such as "culture".
And I didn't say anything about fear, Kimaker. I simply think you've been forced into these convictions. Much like the Red Scare.
In the utterly worthless field of theory, of that much I'm certain. I'm so glad we could be graced with such a lofty intellectual, who's studies are of such importance as literature. Please, preach to us from the Ivory Tower about how white racism bourgeoisie science is keeping the world from progressing and being truly multicultural. I'm all ears.
So after your first ad hominem of "go read a book", when I responded that my entire degree is about reading books, you resorted to more ad hominem. Nice one. Going to offer anything productive or just continue with unnecessary insults?
As for the "smash patriarchy" guy, stop reading tumblr and go read a book.
I hate tumblr. And I study Literature.
On May 21 2013 10:33 Kimaker wrote:
Right there...makes me 99% sure you're trolling.
There is no fear my good sir. Simply convictions.
On May 21 2013 10:34 Cutlery wrote:
..Just no. He is not cynical but realistic. As for your smashing; are you trolling at this point, or would you prefer to live on your own planet?
You actually need those things which you do not like to protect the things you do like.
"You have views I consider extreme, therefore you must be trolling!" I was being slightly hyperbolic for effect but I do want to see these borders broken down.
Some people actually want the world to change. Sometimes revolutionary change is a good thing. I can't be that much of a villain for wanting people to live in harmony as people, rather than constantly dividing people based on social fabrications such as "culture".
And I didn't say anything about fear, Kimaker. I simply think you've been forced into these convictions. Much like the Red Scare.
In the utterly worthless field of theory, of that much I'm certain. I'm so glad we could be graced with such a lofty intellectual, who's studies are of such importance as literature. Please, preach to us from the Ivory Tower about how white racism bourgeoisie science is keeping the world from progressing and being truly multicultural. I'm all ears.
So after your first ad hominem of "go read a book", when I responded that my entire degree is about reading books, you resorted to more ad hominem. Nice one. Going to offer anything productive or just continue with unnecessary insults?
It matters what you're reading and judging from your "smash everything I don't like" rambling incoherence, I can tell the type of drivel you consume. Get back on subject, so we can continue this conversation about Sweden and its immigration problem.
On May 21 2013 09:30 aksfjh wrote: If I'm not mistaken, Sweden is very "anti-immigration." Not that they hate the people that come there, but wish them to become Swedish rather than bring in their own heritage.
That's understandable. If everyone brought in other cultures there would be no Swedish culture left anymore. I think immigrants should be able to hold on to some of their identity especially in private but they should also strive to become part of the culture that they move to.
That's absurd. "Strive to become part of the culture" "would be no Swedish culture left anymore" What does that even mean? We're all human beings. It doesn't matter to what part of the world you move to, you can act however you like. Geographic regions/governments do not dictate who you are.
Of course it matters where you live. Sweden being such a religion free society with proper equality rights and all that jazz, I don't want Islam forced upon me. Muslims are trying to use Islam for personal gain and bring bad stuff from their religion that has no place here, or anywhere else for that matter. It's just wrong that things like honor killings are happening here because they bring their stone age shit to Sweden. Or the typical islamic view on women and homosexuals. But things like that are fine by you because "you can act however you like"?
This is quite propably the most stupid shit I've read today. No, Sweden is not being annexed in a weird isalmic, cultural crusade. Not in any fucking way. What is happening is that we're actually trying to live by our own fucking standards: tolerance, solidarity, equality, freedom and democracy. We're allowing immigrants to come, because the country where they lived is most probably a fucking train-wreck at the moment (most immigrants that have come to us this millenium are from Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran and such countries (earlier most came from east Asia or from eas Europe)). As we preach solidarity and that all people should be given equal chances in life, we try to give those people homes, jobs, education and opportunities in life. Because they need the help, in contrast to most swedish people here, who quite literally drowns in money and possibilities.
Calling Islam stone age shit is just stupid name-calling. Swedish society is built on christian values, who are, actually, older than muslim ones. And they're still not stone age...
I've met a lot more blonde and blue-eyed, atheist swedes who are homophobic or misogynist than muslims who are. Actually, almost all muslims I've met have been extremely subservient and peaceful. And still, if we as a society actually believe in freedom of conscience, speech and opinions, we can't de-legitimize those views on people, as little as I can say that because you appear as a racist bastard, you have to leave our country. No, because Sweden is democratic and tolerant, and fucking equal.
I grew up in the part of town called the ghetto by the rest of inhabitants, and what I've noticed is that a lot of those people who hang around, not doing much, most of them immigrants; they are actually some of the most hard-working, opportunity-seizing and honest people around. We swedes are a lot lazier and feel a lot more entitled to having things for free that they actually have to fight for. The immigrants I've known have started working, earning their own money and having to live by themselves earlier than any of us ethnically swedish.
No, riots are not always caused by the same ethnic minority. In Lund, for example, there's a nazist/anti-fascist-riot that happens annually, in November. There we have whites fighting other whites, mostly. When violent demonstrations happen, they're almost always connected to the leftists, who in Sweden are known as stone-throwers.
EPT
