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Hey everyone, low-mid masters Protoss here. Just wondering how (if at all) players are managing to hold off Terran mech pushes of a bunch of hellbats, vikings, and tanks off of 3 bases. I really can't seem to find the right response.
Robo tech just gets melted. Zealot/archon seems to get melted. Air seems too slow. I could see maybe warp prism play, except it seems like every terran now just rings his entire base with missile turrets before moving out.
I'm really at a loss. Does anyone have some replays to view, or some ideas of how to respond once mech is scouted? Apologies if this is already being discussed or covered in another thread, but I can't seem to find it.
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Immortals, Voidrays, and Tempests are all mech hard-hard-hard-counters which is why it isn't considered viable. Mix in HT if he has non-massive air or goes ghosts. If you're not referring to a specific timing attack that tries to exploit teching then you're simply being outplayed in that you probably would've lost to a bio build too. Perhaps, if you think you're going to be hit with a timing push, play less greedy or just simply work on your macro.
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On May 16 2013 09:21 DemigodcelpH wrote: Immortals, Voidrays, and Tempests are all mech hard-hard-hard-counters which is why it isn't considered viable. Mix in HT if he has non-massive air or goes ghosts. If you're not referring to a specific timing attack that tries to exploit teching then you're simply being outplayed in that you probably would've lost to a bio build too. Perhaps, if you think you're going to be hit with a timing push, play less greedy or just simply work on your macro.
Hmm, does that production have to be (or should it be, I should say) off of double robo/stargate? What's the proper ratio of units? I have no doubt that my macro also needs work, but I can beat bio builds with at least some regularity. I seem to autolose to mech.
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Mech generally is a mass hellbat/viking with only a few tanks and thor/banshee/ghost support. You want to have a much smaller amount of zealots in your main army and rather dump your mins into cannons (for hellbat drops) and WP zealot and DT harass wherever is weakest.
Your main army wants to consist of immortal/archon/blink with colossi/VR/tempest/ht support based on how he varies his composition and you basically want to kite his hellbats across the map when he aims to push and use forcefields to keep his hellbats back. You should be able to force a ton of siege and unseiges and counter attack with warpprisms and slow his push hard, getting free hits off on his hellbats with your colossi and then pick off a few vikings/tanks etc with your stalkers.Once hellbat numbers drop you can mass zealot warpin and crush his army.
Mech in general needs to do a bunch of damage early / midgame with hellbat drops/mine drops in order to be comparable to bio TvP.
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On May 16 2013 09:46 S7EFEN wrote: Mech generally is a mass hellbat/viking with only a few tanks and thor/banshee/ghost support. You want to have a much smaller amount of zealots in your main army and rather dump your mins into cannons (for hellbat drops) and WP zealot and DT harass wherever is weakest.
Your main army wants to consist of immortal/archon/blink with colossi/VR/tempest/ht support based on how he varies his composition and you basically want to kite his hellbats across the map when he aims to push and use forcefields to keep his hellbats back. You should be able to force a ton of siege and unseiges and counter attack with warpprisms and slow his push hard, getting free hits off on his hellbats with your colossi and then pick off a few vikings/tanks etc with your stalkers.Once hellbat numbers drop you can mass zealot warpin and crush his army.
Mech in general needs to do a bunch of damage early / midgame with hellbat drops/mine drops in order to be comparable to bio TvP.
Hmm.
In the game I just played (the replay for which I can't post at the moment, but I'll work on digging it up when I have a chance), the composition was about 40% hellbat, 40% tank, 20% vikings. I tried to warp into his main with speed prisms, but he literally ringed his entire base with missle turrets to the point where there was no safe zone. Then he just a-moved into my natural and I had no chance. We were also close positions, so the push distance was small.
In that scenario, is what you're proposing still viable?
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Immortals run every unit in that composition over. Make extra robos -- sub 1 robo where you would make 2 gates -- when you scout it and just crank out 2-3 immortals at a time with obs as well.
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I don't know if the upper posters are playing at higher levels than me, but I've had pretty good success with multiple robo immortal and primarily chargelot archon. The most important thing about mech is that if he is playing siege tank heavy, every extra angle you attack a siege tank line, you half their strength, so spreading out your armies is very essential.
Thing about zealot archon is that the first wave of zealots will melt pretty heavily, but then you should warp-in another wave of zealots and add them to the battle really quickly. Archons kill hellbats very well after they got the biological tag.
If you scout a defensive mech player, you should really just try and ramp out your economy until 4 base and try and bank enough to keep rolling out max upgraded zealot-archon along with immortals. Be consistent with doing good protoss play like spreading pylons around, if you can warp-in an extra flank, you can very easily crush a mech player who is trying to be offensive. At one point you fly in a warp-prism in his base and camp his production with zealots and blink stalkers. If he has made a ring of turrets, then you should definately be in a position of economical advantage and then you can just keep pounding on his door.
edit: S7EFEN definately probably play against a higher level mech and in those cases his advice is probably better, but it also seems much more micro-intensive.
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On May 16 2013 10:04 TokO wrote: I don't know if the upper posters are playing at higher levels than me, but I've had pretty good success with multiple robo immortal and primarily chargelot archon. The most important thing about mech is that if he is playing siege tank heavy, every extra angle you attack a siege tank line, you half their strength, so spreading out your armies is very essential.
Thing about zealot archon is that the first wave of zealots will melt pretty heavily, but then you should warp-in another wave of zealots and add them to the battle really quickly. Archons kill hellbats very well after they got the biological tag.
If you scout a defensive mech player, you should really just try and ramp out your economy until 4 base and try and bank enough to keep rolling out max upgraded zealot-archon along with immortals. Be consistent with doing good protoss play like spreading pylons around, if you can warp-in an extra flank, you can very easily crush a mech player who is trying to be offensive. At one point you fly in a warp-prism in his base and camp his production with zealots and blink stalkers. If he has made a ring of turrets, then you should definately be in a position of economical advantage and then you can just keep pounding on his door.
edit: S7EFEN definately probably play against a higher level mech and in those cases his advice is probably better, but it also seems much more micro-intensive. This is your best bet against tank/hellbat/viking. I believe HTmario, probably your best bet for following if you aim to go mech vs protoss has a guide - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398500 Which again backs up the idea that the point of the tanks is simply to keep HT and stalkers off of your vikings and as a defensive positional tool. Mass tanks really isn't very good because of charge/immo/archon, which even with hellbats should roll it.
Reading marios guide shows how a T has to really adjust his 'mech' composition to the point where its mostly hellbat viking/medi + support units based on the protoss comp, with very few tanks.
So basically mass immortal/chargelot/archon vs tanks and if you poke at them the whole way across the map rather than letting them roll up and seige you'll have a much easier time. hellbat tank is really really slow.
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On May 16 2013 09:46 S7EFEN wrote: Mech generally is a mass hellbat/viking with only a few tanks and thor/banshee/ghost support. You want to have a much smaller amount of zealots in your main army and rather dump your mins into cannons (for hellbat drops) and WP zealot and DT harass wherever is weakest.
That's a horrible idea. On 3 base mid-late game any competent meching Terran will have a PF as his 3rd, and several turrets at every mineral line. Your DT/Zealot WP harass is costly in gas and APM. A maxed out or 180 food Terran will see your small army and simply A-click you to victory. That's very wrong imo.
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I prefer Blink-stalker - collossus. Expand aggressively w. cannons. Stay on top of your upgrades. Use blink to spread out vs tanks and you can easily move your entire army up and down cliffs which is a nightmare for mech to deal with. Collossi melt the hellbats (light) and forcing vikings makes the terran really gas stretched and mass blink stalkers take care of them well enough. Add storm later if needed.
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On May 16 2013 15:25 HanSomPa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2013 09:46 S7EFEN wrote: Mech generally is a mass hellbat/viking with only a few tanks and thor/banshee/ghost support. You want to have a much smaller amount of zealots in your main army and rather dump your mins into cannons (for hellbat drops) and WP zealot and DT harass wherever is weakest. That's a horrible idea. On 3 base mid-late game any competent meching Terran will have a PF as his 3rd, and several turrets at every mineral line. Your DT/Zealot WP harass is costly in gas and APM. A maxed out or 180 food Terran will see your small army and simply A-click you to victory. That's very wrong imo.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. The investments he puts into making 'several' turrets and PF's etc is easily offsetting the costs of sending a dt or two zealots around. The idea of harassment is that you force your opponent to invest in those defenses, and if you discover that he already has done it, maybe you scale your harassment accordingly. Nobody is suggesting sending waves of 12 dt's to their death.
Also, usually if you put pressure on your opponent in any form, the chance that he will put pressure back is much lower, and I'd rather spend APM in situations where I can hurt the opponents economy, instead of situations where he is doomdropping hellbats in my mineral-line.
OP said he was low-mid master, so at this point, if harass is going to spiral into an auto-loss against mech, esp. the mech he is facing, then maybe it is time to work on some mechanics/macro.
EDIT: Oh, I can comfirm that the tank-heavy mech I face is pretty shitty and is usually what you meet if you're playing against players who are just 'winging' it.
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On May 16 2013 16:09 Scarecrow wrote: I prefer Blink-stalker - collossus. Expand aggressively w. cannons. Stay on top of your upgrades. Use blink to spread out vs tanks and you can easily move your entire army up and down cliffs which is a nightmare for mech to deal with. Collossi melt the hellbats (light) and forcing vikings makes the terran really gas stretched and mass blink stalkers take care of them well enough. Add storm later if needed.
Tanks melt stalkers. Even if stalker blink on top of tanks, sieged tanks still win. The truth is though, I've been forced into this kind of comp against many meching terran. It's pure fact that zealots are just retardedly bad against any hellbat composition. So even though Blink Stalkerrs/Colo/HT is suboptimal, I have no other choice but to go into it.
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Open with 1 gate expand to robo then observer. Confirm if he will go mech. If so, build stargate - fleet becon - stargate Expand again then add 3 additional gates (to defend in case he scans your stargates and fleet becon). Scanned or not scanned, build carriers
Carriers > Mech
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Easiest way I've found to play against mech is to expand everywhere while massing air (carriers are preferable. Not sure why everyone loves VR/tempest when carriers are just straight up a-move wins that don't die to widow mines like void rays). When he comes to attack you just counter into his base with whatever small ground army you have and force a base trade. DTs are also great in these situations.
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On May 16 2013 17:11 rsvp wrote: Easiest way I've found to play against mech is to expand everywhere while massing air (carriers are preferable. Not sure why everyone loves VR/tempest when carriers are just straight up a-move wins that don't die to widow mines like void rays). When he comes to attack you just counter into his base with whatever small ground army you have and force a base trade. DTs are also great in these situations. This. Don't fight the mech, mass expand with a couple cannons and base trade.
You have to stay on top of your scouting so you know what sort of push he's going for/what timing to defend (if it's going to be an early push like mass hellbat).
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Well you can get voids faster, and a few tempests are always useful as siege units, but I agree tempests are overused compared to carriers.
Anyway blink stalkers are very good against mech. Not in the direct fight, but in the harrasment role. What is a mech player going to do against it? Hellbats are too slow, hellions are fairly horrible against stalkers, tanks are in theory nice, but if you want to do more than turtle on 3 bases you really have to spread them out if you want to defend with them, and 1-2 tanks are just easy targets for a small group of blink stalkers.
Even if he is turtling on 3 bases, move your main army to somewhere threatening for him, and he will have to pull majority of his army there to defend. And if he has stronger army and yours would be next to his third? Then you can always pull back since your army is way faster than a mech army.
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If going for a ground-based army, the main strategy is take advantage of your mobility of the terran's army. I can't give you an exact composition since basically any composition can work out fine as long as you know what you are doing. Basically since terran mech is slow, you're gonna want to harass his bases a lot.
So you're basically going to need a lot of observers since the key to winning vs Mech is vision, if you know where his main army is, you can basically move your main army to his undefended expansion (one far away from his army) and have enough time to retreat or run back to defend (if he decides to go to your base).
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United States8476 Posts
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