Everyone loves Scourges, including Blizzards... maybe. On old concept arts of Swarm Host I found that Locusts were air unit before. Now Blizzards are using air Locusts in campaign as one of evolutions for Swarm Hosts. Probably with standard melee or ranged attack. What about bringing back Scourges in other form? Without splash as kamikazes against specific targets? And make them able to attack only ground?
Remember flying Scourges in Perimeter RTS game? They had same name as BroodWar zerg unit. They were flying kamikazes, that spawns in big numbers and deal damage to one target on ground (without splash). What if Locusts will be a new Scourges, that will be spawned alltime from Swarm Hosts? They will do kamikaze-damage to specific targets without splash.
Scourges, spawning at Spounge worlds in perimeter game. Those black-birds are kamikazes, that can ruing half of your base
It will work better against Siege Tanks and Colossies. Also Hydralisks in ZvZ will become a new counter to swarm hosts, or Fungals, to prevent Locusts from kamikaze. This also will buff Zerg air in other form, and still will be swarmy because of big number of Locusts.
Flying Locusts will be available in HotS campaign as one of two evolutions for Swarm Hosts (probably the green Swarm Host, because purple one probably will be a new Lurker). That picture is from game resources.
Well, just make Locusts as Scourges with small damage. Probably not able to attack buildings.
Widow Mines will still counter them, as they still hit air
Stalkers will be able to shoot them
Phoenixes will have good damage against them as light units
Thors will counter them as they have anti-light damage
Zerg Swarm-Festors will not work anymore, because you will need anti-air against Locusts. Hydralisks/Corruptors/Fungals to stop those small flying kamikazes
Siege Tanks and Colossies will not work against Locusts anymore -> more usage for swarm hosts
New locusts will be able to fly meaning that cliff becomes less a problem for Zergs
Because Locusts can hit only ground, every air unit will counter it, if it has air-to-air attack.
Allows ground zerg units not stuck between locusts
Forces enemy to make more air. Many current stuff already counters new kamikaze-Locusts. Phoenixes, Thors anti-light will be very usefull, because locusts are small and they always will have some splash, corruptors will be more useful as air-to-air counter against locusts, fungals will stop locusts from reaching your units
Wrong forum but daaaaaaaaamn. This idea is nice. Mass little scourge spawning! Much more interesting than the current Swarm Host which i think is boring.
This wouldn't work imo. You can't spawn endless air-bound banelings. There isn't enough aoe that affects air to stop them all. The only thing capable is HSM, storm, and fungal, and you can't endlessly trade units for aoe. If there were enough "scourge," you'd never be able to kill them all in time, even with something super efficient like a marine bio ball (keeping in mind that other things like the hydra and stalker would be prone to huge overkill).
The difference of kamikaze Locusts from Scourges is that they can deal less damage and only to ground units, plus they become a free unit, so it can be balanced around it. But they will still able to force enemy to leave their "bunker" positions and start fight against zerg players. The difference is that there will be a bit different solutions to fight with locusts.
Instead Force fields, Time Warps, Colossies, there will be phoenixes/void rays, stalkers, still storms.
Instead siege tanks - Thor anti-light-air attack (finally it will be useful!), vikings, marines, widow mines still hit air and splash damage also can works against flying Locusts
ZvZ becomes more interesting. Because it's now less BroodLord'y unit. Now corruptors and hydralisks will work against new Locusts.
You can't spawn endless air-bound banelings. There isn't enough aoe that affects air to stop them all.
Man, it's enought!
- anti-light phoenixes - anti-light with splash thors - widow mines with splash - archons still counter them - storms still works great - makes zvz more fun
even with something super efficient like a marine bio ball (keeping in mind that other things like the hydra and stalker would be prone to huge overkill).
Everything can be balanced. Everything. Buff health a bit, change their speed, add some armor, etc. But flying kamikaze-to-ground locusts will be more fun, than current low-ranged roaches with hydra-HP and slow speed.
On December 16 2012 02:48 Alryk wrote: This wouldn't work imo. You can't spawn endless air-bound banelings. There isn't enough aoe that affects air to stop them all. The only thing capable is HSM, storm, and fungal, and you can't endlessly trade units for aoe. If there were enough "scourge," you'd never be able to kill them all in time, even with something super efficient like a marine bio ball (keeping in mind that other things like the hydra and stalker would be prone to huge overkill).
Actually i could very well imagine this to work, they just need to have very low hp so that stalkers and phoenix kill them really fast. Terran should have no big problem either. Banelings isn't the right comparison as they wouldn't have splash.
The current locusts basically add no value, they feel like a cheap verson of the Broodlord's broodlings which spawn much faster.
wrong forum,but I think the muta already fill the gap in terms of air raider. With all the AA splash damage (thors, psystorm, archon, fungal) I don't think making an even smaller unit with less health would be any viable (because they would tend to clump up a lot)
but I think the muta already fill the gap in terms of air raider
They will work differently. Also oracle now fills the role of air-raider as Phoenixes. Plus air-kamikaze-locusts will add more variety to game, especially ZvZ
So they can't really fly but only glide to the ground (because they cannot attack air)? Or they only detonate if the impact is big enough so they need to pick up speed by using gravity? Sorry to nitpick but I just like the units to make sense (as much as possible). Scourge could also be an interesting replacement for the IT, albeit an anti air version in that case. If fungal is nerved against air it'll force choosing to use the energy against ground with fungal or scourge with air.
On December 16 2012 02:58 Traceback wrote: Good idea, but in addition, should also make the "scourge" unable to attack buildings.
Would be great because then those annoying saves by lifting from Ts wouldn't be so safe or viable. Finally time for them to feel what its like to have to lose a base and not have a choice
but I think the muta already fill the gap in terms of air raider
They will work differently. Also oracle now fills the role of air-raider as Phoenixes. Plus air-kamikaze-locusts will add more variety to game, especially ZvZ
Would they? I mean they could just get fungaled and sent to oblivion tbh
On December 16 2012 02:48 bobdabillda wrote: looking at protoss air now, would be interesting. with infestor nerf, maybe some more anti air is needed for zerg
I definitely agree with this. The only midgame anti air option is either Hydralisk or Mutalisks now that Infestors are nerfed. Queens are slow and aren't too strong in general. Mutalisks take a huge commitment and can be easily countered by a simple phoenix tech switch or 1-3 thors. Hydralisks are alright, but they become worse as the game progresses.
If locust could attack air, it would make Zerg midgame more flexible, which is what Blizzard wants.
On December 16 2012 02:48 Alryk wrote: This wouldn't work imo. You can't spawn endless air-bound banelings. There isn't enough aoe that affects air to stop them all. The only thing capable is HSM, storm, and fungal, and you can't endlessly trade units for aoe. If there were enough "scourge," you'd never be able to kill them all in time, even with something super efficient like a marine bio ball (keeping in mind that other things like the hydra and stalker would be prone to huge overkill).
Actually i could very well imagine this to work, they just need to have very low hp so that stalkers and phoenix kill them really fast. Terran should have no big problem either. Banelings isn't the right comparison as they wouldn't have splash.
The current locusts basically add no value, they feel like a cheap verson of the Broodlord's broodlings which spawn much faster.
yea it could work as long as mines continue to hit air, mines/turrets and thors could deal with it as mech and with bio marines would insta kill them although you would need to be really careful with medivacs. but the speed boost would help in tight situations.
I dunno, I think making locusts suicide units (flying or not) only makes one of swam hosts biggest problems even worse: either you have enough of them and completely destroy their defenses while they can't do much to respond, or you don't have enough and end up doing nothing at all.
Making the locusts only deal little damage while exploding doesn't really make sense either, that means swarm hosts are a nuisance at best and can't be used for their intended purpose, breaking through enemy lines.
On December 16 2012 03:12 caradoc wrote: *shudder*
There's already too much a focus on air in HotS imo.
Then this one could decrease that focus if they are good on countering protoss air for example. Although i agree there are so many air units being used (for Protoss at least atm). Almost makes maps completey irrelevant.
On December 16 2012 03:14 Bagi wrote: I dunno, I think making locusts suicide units (flying or not) only makes one of swam hosts biggest problems even worse: either you have enough of them and completely destroy their defenses while they can't do much to respond, or you don't have enough and end up doing nothing at all.
Making the locusts only deal little damage while exploding doesn't really make sense either, that means swarm hosts are a nuisance at best and can't be used for their intended purpose, breaking through enemy lines.
Suicide Locusts can fly at same speed, probably higher. If you're too aware about defences, just disallow locusts to attack buildings.
There's already too much a focus on air in HotS imo.
There are many anti-air options in game also.
* widow mines hit air * thor anti-light splash attack will work against suicide locusts instead siege tanks * marines still can work a bit against them * vikings can work against them * phoenixes * stalkers * void rays * corruptors now are usable in zvz * hydralisks gets some usage too in zvz
Also why you moved to SC2 forum, if it's more a HOTS discussion? Many things listed in this thread only works in HOTS, including new phoenixes, widow mines, swarm hosts themselfs
Honestly, this scourge idea seems like recycling or taking ideas from other games, I'd rather see new original units.
Other games? Scourge was in BroodWar. Flying scourge-analogue was in Perimeter-RTS. Swarm Host is a unit with same idea as Lurker. Widow Mines - they're mines, like in BroodWar. The difference is just mechanic and roles. Same for these flying kamikaze Locusts. Scourges atacked air only, these locusts will kamikaze onto ground units. Scourges were fast, locusts can be slow (a bit faster, than 1.88, but still slow, like 2.25). These locusts will not be able to attack buildings, when banelings can do that
I would be interested to hear the descision of choosing Corruptor instead of Scourge as an anti air unit, i cannot get my head around it, Corruptor is soooo one dimensional
On December 16 2012 04:33 Evangelist wrote: Is it really necessary to push battlecruisers even further into the mire and make them that easy to counter?
What? I'm not following you, you're using bcs in TvZ?
Air locusts would be a lot cooler, and would fit the name better. They should totally make them air again, but make the locusts themselves weaker to compensate for that fact.
Terrible idea. All you're suggesting is making the swarm host into a ranged unit. That has to burrow to shoot. And the damage isn't instant. The spawned Locust's would have to be nukes to be worth making at all. Then all you have is high front loaded damage and we all know that makes battles last 2 seconds.
The swarm host is supposed to be a siege unit. Not a nuke dropper.
On December 16 2012 04:17 zhurai wrote: I don't really like the idea of buffing free units.
also why's a topic about hots in the sc2 (wol) forums.
This. Also I'm pretty sure Z does not need a buff at all right now. to do this buff, then some nerf must be done.
I'm not sure if you actually got that the locusts come from the swarm host, and the sh are only available in HOTS.
You can't say zerg needs a nerf in hots, the game isn't even released yet it's not time yet to talk about balance between races lol. Clueless comment to say the least.
EDIT : Also, this thread is not about buffing the locust, just re-designing it. Maybe making the locust an air unit would make it better, but I would hardly call this a buff as it would be a whole new unit.
I like this idea, it seems more interesting than the current swarm host model. Also, another unit that isn't affected by forcefields would make zvp a better matchup in my opinion.
On December 16 2012 03:35 thoraxe wrote: Honestly, this scourge idea seems like recycling or taking ideas from other games, I'd rather see new original units.
Then you might want to come up with an "original" idea yourself ...
There are only a limited number of concepts available and everything "new" is just a new recipe with the same old ingredients. There are only 2 ways to deal damage for example: "1-effect" OR "over time"; then you have to decide: "AoE" or "single target"; then you pick a "method of delivery": spell/missile/machinegun/cannon/acid/...
Just unlearn this useless "new original" phrase, because it is very very empty.
On the topic of flying locusts ... its terrible to have free units, but to make them flying would be even more terrible and would only work with a serious limitation like only being able to shoot air or being made of paper or whatever.
On December 16 2012 02:48 Existor wrote: Everything can be balanced. Everything. Buff health a bit, change their speed, add some armor, etc. But flying kamikaze-to-ground locusts will be more fun, than current low-ranged roaches with hydra-HP and slow speed.
While we're at it, let's also add every single unit and ability from the WoL campaign to multiplayer. This will solve every problem in the game! Don't worry, bro. Everything can be balanced. Everything. Oh, let's also add the hybrid race to the game too! There will be no problem at all with this idea, because I, myself, thought of it and can't see past the idea of fun and interesting. I'm not going to bother posting my ideas/suggestions in the battle.net forums, because who cares about TL forum guidelines!
Is it really necessary to push battlecruisers even further into the mire and make them that easy to counter?
sounds like 1 Swarm Host at every expansion can instantly clear a drop
If you read 1st post normally, I've said about air-to-ground attack only
Also, another unit that isn't affected by forcefields would make zvp a better matchup in my opinion.
True! And it will force protoss player make air even more, as Blizzard wants.
The swarm host is supposed to be a siege unit.
This is an another form of siege unit. Spawn suicide units alltime to force enemy start fight with you, or suicide locusts will kill more.
EDIT : Also, this thread is not about buffing the locust, just re-designing it. Maybe making the locust an air unit would make it better, but I would hardly call this a buff as it would be a whole new unit.
It's not really buff. Here is why:
- Thors already have anti-light AA-attack. Finally splash attack will be useful, because mutalisks are always are under magix box - widow mines still hitting air - Siege tanks will not be able to shut down locusts. But for compensation, thors now can do that from long range.
Too many free units for Zerg as is. Adding flying ones into the mix would be terrible.
Too many splash-weapons for other races. Non-adding free unit to zergs can cause situation that zergs will be very weak in HOTS against all new stuff + old one.
Nice art but jesus can we stop begging for BW units
Thats why it's a Locust with air-to-ground damage. Scourges were different a lot and had different role. These kamikaze flying Locusts will fill the role, as current Locust supposed to do, but not fullfill normally because of many things, that kills them quickly, making Swarm Hosts useless right now. They added Warp Field (slows locists into the hell), oracles can shut down light-locusts, void rays were buffed, so they even stronger vs corruptors that will try to defend swarm hosts, colossies already kill all locusts, you have recall against masses of locusts, you got tempests to snipe swarm hosts.
I like the locust as they are now personally
I like them too, but it's so frustrating to see, that one of favourite units not works properly
I like the look of the locusts while they fly. On the ground, they look like race cars. As a spectator looking at a stage or something, the animation and model just looks awkward.
They should keep the airborne locusts but have the same attack.
oh lol i completely didn't read the air to ground only also. well duh, then i don't know if i like it that much. was that always there? thought you wanted them to be air to air.
also pretty sure the thread was in the starcraft 2 forum to begin with. i looked at it here when it had zero comments.
I like the idea. Right now the Swarm Host isn't doing its job as a midgame unit can counter the big siege tank push or big robo push. Zerg needs to rush to Hive to stop those, and the idea of the sward host was to give Zerg a viable midgame option that can effectively deal with the strong midgame protoss and terran army.
As of now, the Swarm Host is countered by the Collosi and the Siege tank, rendering it a pretty useless unit. It's good for all ins, but that's it. Hopefully they redesign it because as of now it isn't fulfilling any role at all. I might as well keep rushing to Hive.
Half of this thread is interesting, the other half doesn't meet HotS forum guidelines. You don't get around those rules by posting in SC2 gen. Closing this.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/edKbf.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MQoZY.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uYKPX.jpg)
Much more interesting than the current Swarm Host which i think is boring.
