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On November 22 2012 01:25 EggYsc2 wrote: Look just because you had a really abusive TvZ before and people figuired you out and now you cant win as much doesnt mean you can write a 3 page essay and complain about it.
Find a new styleman
Thats it.
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This could make for a variant of terran 111 push that's going to be too strong for protoss to hold.
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On November 22 2012 00:30 avilo wrote: p.s. I know this thread has been obviously about Terran VS Zerg. I plan to write one regarding PvZ as well, as I think there is a potential solution/help to protoss if psionic storm dealt more damage to massive units (aka broodlords).
On a side note to this, I've been considering the same idea for quite a while now. But not just for PvZ.
You might want to take into account that if storm does bonus damage to massive units then it'll do bonus damage to Thors. In which case you could potentially afford to remove energy from it and suddenly give a considerable boost to Terran mech power vs Protoss (to eliminate the instant damage of feedback); possibly making it more viable without being overpowered.
Just a thought.
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Who is this avilo guy who keeps thinking he's a video game designer? I mean, who do you think you are? All you seem to do is whine and whine and bitch about how this game is terrible. Breaking news: micromanagement requires skill.
Can you imagine what would happen if every TL member made a thread about their personal proposed changes? You gotta stop crying and start practicing man.
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4713 Posts
The amount of ignorance and hate in this thread is is so palpable that it hurts.
Avilo brought up a 100% valid argument, the current change tested on the balance map does absolutely nothing, it does not address the core issue with the Raven, the accessibility and immediate usefulness. To give you an actually idea how how slow a caster regenerates energy, it takes 50 seconds for one to accumulate 25 energy, that is 0.5 energy per second. Without the energy upgrade it literally takes 150 in game seconds for the Raven to have enough energy for HSM, and even with the upgrade it needs 100 seconds, that's as long as it takes for a single fucking spire to morph, that's 10 seconds longer then it takes to build 1 fucking BC.
I literally don't see anyone attacking Avilo's points directly, I see people just attack Avilo due to ignorance, and their own stupidity and bias, while still ignoring his well thought out and well reasoned arguments.
This is why we actually need people to theorycraft on balance changes, because Blizzard has shown its willingness to listen, but they keep going about changing the wrong things, the things that either don't make any sense or don't have any impact at all.
You guys say Avilo's idea is bad? Well say WHY its bad. Point out, how is it going to break the MU? What theoretical timing do you think you could hit with this new change? Is there no way to stop said timing?
From what I see his change doesn't affect any MU apart from TvZ, Raven isn't made in TvP apart from certain variations of the 1/1/1, and that build isn't nearly as useful now a days. TvT, hardly affected, you only get them as part of your late game.
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On November 22 2012 01:16 iaguz wrote: Lategame is about all the steps leading up to it. And this change is encouraging the Terran to have 1+ ravens with a lot of energy lategame because you were making them midgame and you found the unit to be useful and flexible enough because it has another function. What? Ravens still cost 200 gas, who could afford to build them by midgame? Don't you have Tanks, Thors or Medivacs to build at this time? Whether you play mech or Marines/Tanks you have 0 gas to spare to start building a Raven fleet during mid-game.
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On November 22 2012 01:46 LgNKami wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 00:39 Bodzilla wrote: Not to rain on your Parade Avilo, but i seriously wish people would get off soap box's about game design. I'd be much happier if people just sat down and did what they could to grind out games and figure shit out.
Everyone that does it ignores the fact that the game is constantly evolving, and after 2 years we are no where near finished developing the meta-game. lol you must not know avilo. all he does is ladder bro. he's like the Kas of NA.
Except awful.
I think if anyone is to present a consice case for Ravens, look towards someone that's actually, idk, good at the game? Let's hear what a qxc has to say, or someone of the like. Avilo needs to stop thinking that 1. anyone cares about his paltry understanding of this game and where he thinks it should go, and 2. that he's a fucking game designer that has the keys to all imbalance doors. Learn a new style instead of trying to ride the gravy-train of an abusive, greedy type of play.
I want to see Ravens more as much as everyone else, and I do think Blizzard is going in the right direction (although fixing something that should've been there in the first place). Anything to promote actual diverse play from Terrans (don't cite nuke play, that wasn't innovating, it was a cheeky waste of time) is a good thing in my book.
Edited for some spelling mistakes.
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On November 22 2012 02:05 Destructicon wrote: The amount of ignorance and hate in this thread is is so palpable that it hurts.
Avilo brought up a 100% valid argument, the current change tested on the balance map does absolutely nothing, it does not address the core issue with the Raven, the accessibility and immediate usefulness. To give you an actually idea how how slow a caster regenerates energy, it takes 50 seconds for one to accumulate 25 energy, that is 0.5 energy per second. Without the energy upgrade it literally takes 150 in game seconds for the Raven to have enough energy for HSM, and even with the upgrade it needs 100 seconds, that's as long as it takes for a single fucking spire to morph, that's 10 seconds longer then it takes to build 1 fucking BC.
I literally don't see anyone attacking Avilo's points directly, I see people just attack Avilo due to ignorance, and their own stupidity and bias, while still ignoring his well thought out and well reasoned arguments.
This is why we actually need people to theorycraft on balance changes, because Blizzard has shown its willingness to listen, but they keep going about changing the wrong things, the things that either don't make any sense or don't have any impact at all.
You guys say Avilo's idea is bad? Well say WHY its bad. Point out, how is it going to break the MU? What theoretical timing do you think you could hit with this new change? Is there no way to stop said timing?
From what I see his change doesn't affect any MU apart from TvZ, Raven isn't made in TvP apart from certain variations of the 1/1/1, and that build isn't nearly as useful now a days. TvT, hardly affected, you only get them as part of your late game. Thank you. Despite how Avilo IS an avid QQer about the other two races, you gotta realize that this suggestion does nothing but make sense. If you don't attack his points and attack him, you're just as much of an empty-talker as you accuse him to be.
To zergs saying you "figured' ZvT out, give me a fucking break. Broodlord-infestor was discovered, an EVEN MORE abusive strategy. In fact, by far the most abusive crap I have ever seen since broodwar. The other races deserve every tool they can get to fight zerg late game.
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While I agree that the Raven change is not really the correct course for buffing that unit, I don't think that TvZ is as much of a problem of terran being bad as it is infestor being too good.. While the late game of zerg tech switches is pretty ridiculous, I really just think that its more of a problem that the infestor is so freaking good and they come out so early. You can have a pretty big advantage as terran in the mid game/ early end game, but you cannot press that advantage or attack confidently with a timing if you are not MKP top 5 micro world, or you opponent doesnt make serious positional/micro mistakes. Defending purely with a support/spellcaster unit is just not good design. Terran has tools for defeating every unit in the game, but certain units are too good at just turtling/defending to the point you can not press a significant advantage like other races can do. This is somewhat of a problem in TvP as well (2 or 3 base protoss turtling till they have coll/storm then expand), but not as much of an extent as zerg sitting there with some spines queens and infestor ling.
Should raven get a small buff? sure it should bc its barely usable. Should strike cannons get some change? sure it should its not usable. However they are not the answer to the glaring issues terran faces against the other 2 races...
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Destruction wrote a vell thought out post. All I've read in this thread so far are ad hominem attack. Present arguments why Avilo's idea is bad but do not go after him. Unfortunately I think Blizzard will not do anything to the raven on WOL on purpose. They have an expansion to sell in around 3 months now and will implement changes to raven only there.
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On November 22 2012 02:05 Destructicon wrote: The amount of ignorance and hate in this thread is is so palpable that it hurts.
Avilo brought up a 100% valid argument, the current change tested on the balance map does absolutely nothing, it does not address the core issue with the Raven, the accessibility and immediate usefulness. To give you an actually idea how how slow a caster regenerates energy, it takes 50 seconds for one to accumulate 25 energy, that is 0.5 energy per second. Without the energy upgrade it literally takes 150 in game seconds for the Raven to have enough energy for HSM, and even with the upgrade it needs 100 seconds, that's as long as it takes for a single fucking spire to morph, that's 10 seconds longer then it takes to build 1 fucking BC.
I literally don't see anyone attacking Avilo's points directly, I see people just attack Avilo due to ignorance, and their own stupidity and bias, while still ignoring his well thought out and well reasoned arguments.
This is why we actually need people to theorycraft on balance changes, because Blizzard has shown its willingness to listen, but they keep going about changing the wrong things, the things that either don't make any sense or don't have any impact at all.
You guys say Avilo's idea is bad? Well say WHY its bad. Point out, how is it going to break the MU? What theoretical timing do you think you could hit with this new change? Is there no way to stop said timing?
From what I see his change doesn't affect any MU apart from TvZ, Raven isn't made in TvP apart from certain variations of the 1/1/1, and that build isn't nearly as useful now a days. TvT, hardly affected, you only get them as part of your late game.
You must have missed the point I made then. No pro is testing the current changes made to the raven - or at least not yet to an extent to come to any conclusion. Once a pro player decides if they're acceptable changes or not then we can (possibly..) move onto avilo's changes and see if they're viable or not. Theory crafting only gets you so far. You have to actually test the patches as they come and provide REASONED explanations with EVIDENCE as to why you think they're either good or bad. Simply saying, "I think this is bad because I think it's bad" does not actually provide OBJECTIVE reasoning as to why the changes are bad.
What I'm saying is, regardless of how Avilo's changes would affect the game he should actually test this shit before making a post this large with no basis for his reasoning. The chain of logic he provides is not sound and should not be taken without argument. Test it and then we'll move on.
If the above is too hard to understand I suggest you step away from balance discussion altogether and let others handle it.
+ Show Spoiler +I can only imagine what Nony thinks when reading threads like this; or anyone else with a similar major. I know I have to restrain myself @_@;;
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On November 22 2012 02:05 Destructicon wrote: The amount of ignorance and hate in this thread is is so palpable that it hurts.
Avilo brought up a 100% valid argument, the current change tested on the balance map does absolutely nothing, it does not address the core issue with the Raven, the accessibility and immediate usefulness. To give you an actually idea how how slow a caster regenerates energy, it takes 50 seconds for one to accumulate 25 energy, that is 0.5 energy per second. Without the energy upgrade it literally takes 150 in game seconds for the Raven to have enough energy for HSM, and even with the upgrade it needs 100 seconds, that's as long as it takes for a single fucking spire to morph, that's 10 seconds longer then it takes to build 1 fucking BC.
I literally don't see anyone attacking Avilo's points directly, I see people just attack Avilo due to ignorance, and their own stupidity and bias, while still ignoring his well thought out and well reasoned arguments.
This is why we actually need people to theorycraft on balance changes, because Blizzard has shown its willingness to listen, but they keep going about changing the wrong things, the things that either don't make any sense or don't have any impact at all.
You guys say Avilo's idea is bad? Well say WHY its bad. Point out, how is it going to break the MU? What theoretical timing do you think you could hit with this new change? Is there no way to stop said timing?
From what I see his change doesn't affect any MU apart from TvZ, Raven isn't made in TvP apart from certain variations of the 1/1/1, and that build isn't nearly as useful now a days. TvT, hardly affected, you only get them as part of your late game.
People are tired of the "This is way to fix WoL and let me explain why" threads. People would rather players just dive in their, post some replays and give their thoughts after the game is over. Test the changes, rather than write a essay about how their change is better than Blizzard's.
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I just don't get it. Why don't they decrease the energy cost of the seeker missile and also lower the damage? Add a cool down so multiple seeker missiles can't be launched and increase the speed of the raven so it's no longer a snail
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I don't always agree with Avilo. But so many people are acting like whining cry babies as soon as he posts something. He made a really good (not perfect) analysis and people just disregard it? He is right, the Blizz change only affects kind of early game where terran are (at least as much as I know) good. His change will have great effects in late game.
People are so ignorat just because they don't like Avilo.
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On November 22 2012 01:46 LgNKami wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 00:39 Bodzilla wrote: Not to rain on your Parade Avilo, but i seriously wish people would get off soap box's about game design. I'd be much happier if people just sat down and did what they could to grind out games and figure shit out.
Everyone that does it ignores the fact that the game is constantly evolving, and after 2 years we are no where near finished developing the meta-game. lol you must not know avilo. all he does is ladder bro. he's like the Kas of NA.
Kas might argue with you about that.
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On November 22 2012 02:17 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 02:05 Destructicon wrote: The amount of ignorance and hate in this thread is is so palpable that it hurts.
Avilo brought up a 100% valid argument, the current change tested on the balance map does absolutely nothing, it does not address the core issue with the Raven, the accessibility and immediate usefulness. To give you an actually idea how how slow a caster regenerates energy, it takes 50 seconds for one to accumulate 25 energy, that is 0.5 energy per second. Without the energy upgrade it literally takes 150 in game seconds for the Raven to have enough energy for HSM, and even with the upgrade it needs 100 seconds, that's as long as it takes for a single fucking spire to morph, that's 10 seconds longer then it takes to build 1 fucking BC.
I literally don't see anyone attacking Avilo's points directly, I see people just attack Avilo due to ignorance, and their own stupidity and bias, while still ignoring his well thought out and well reasoned arguments.
This is why we actually need people to theorycraft on balance changes, because Blizzard has shown its willingness to listen, but they keep going about changing the wrong things, the things that either don't make any sense or don't have any impact at all.
You guys say Avilo's idea is bad? Well say WHY its bad. Point out, how is it going to break the MU? What theoretical timing do you think you could hit with this new change? Is there no way to stop said timing?
From what I see his change doesn't affect any MU apart from TvZ, Raven isn't made in TvP apart from certain variations of the 1/1/1, and that build isn't nearly as useful now a days. TvT, hardly affected, you only get them as part of your late game. You must have missed the point I made then. No pro is testing the current changes made to the raven - or at least not yet to an extent to come to any conclusion. Once a pro player decides if they're acceptable changes or not then we can (possibly..) move onto avilo's changes and see if they're viable or not. Theory crafting only gets you so far. You have to actually test the patches as they come and provide REASONED explanations with EVIDENCE as to why you think they're either good or bad. Simply saying, "I think this is bad because I think it's bad" does not actually provide OBJECTIVE reasoning as to why the changes are bad. What I'm saying is, regardless of how Avilo's changes would affect the game he should actually test this shit before making a post this large with no basis for his reasoning. The chain of logic he provides is not sound and should not be taken without argument. Test it and then we'll move on. If the above is too hard to understand I suggest you step away from balance discussion altogether and let others handle it. + Show Spoiler +I can only imagine what Nony thinks when reading threads like this; or anyone else with a similar major. I know I have to restrain myself @_@;;
not sure if srs
it takes like 10 seconds of thinking to realize the raven change does not do shit in lategame TvZ -there is absolutely no point in "testing" this, especially not for a progamer.
if you need even more reasoning then provided here I am not sure if its not you that should step away from this discussion tbh
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On November 22 2012 02:34 SamsLiST wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 02:17 -Kyo- wrote:On November 22 2012 02:05 Destructicon wrote: The amount of ignorance and hate in this thread is is so palpable that it hurts.
Avilo brought up a 100% valid argument, the current change tested on the balance map does absolutely nothing, it does not address the core issue with the Raven, the accessibility and immediate usefulness. To give you an actually idea how how slow a caster regenerates energy, it takes 50 seconds for one to accumulate 25 energy, that is 0.5 energy per second. Without the energy upgrade it literally takes 150 in game seconds for the Raven to have enough energy for HSM, and even with the upgrade it needs 100 seconds, that's as long as it takes for a single fucking spire to morph, that's 10 seconds longer then it takes to build 1 fucking BC.
I literally don't see anyone attacking Avilo's points directly, I see people just attack Avilo due to ignorance, and their own stupidity and bias, while still ignoring his well thought out and well reasoned arguments.
This is why we actually need people to theorycraft on balance changes, because Blizzard has shown its willingness to listen, but they keep going about changing the wrong things, the things that either don't make any sense or don't have any impact at all.
You guys say Avilo's idea is bad? Well say WHY its bad. Point out, how is it going to break the MU? What theoretical timing do you think you could hit with this new change? Is there no way to stop said timing?
From what I see his change doesn't affect any MU apart from TvZ, Raven isn't made in TvP apart from certain variations of the 1/1/1, and that build isn't nearly as useful now a days. TvT, hardly affected, you only get them as part of your late game. You must have missed the point I made then. No pro is testing the current changes made to the raven - or at least not yet to an extent to come to any conclusion. Once a pro player decides if they're acceptable changes or not then we can (possibly..) move onto avilo's changes and see if they're viable or not. Theory crafting only gets you so far. You have to actually test the patches as they come and provide REASONED explanations with EVIDENCE as to why you think they're either good or bad. Simply saying, "I think this is bad because I think it's bad" does not actually provide OBJECTIVE reasoning as to why the changes are bad. What I'm saying is, regardless of how Avilo's changes would affect the game he should actually test this shit before making a post this large with no basis for his reasoning. The chain of logic he provides is not sound and should not be taken without argument. Test it and then we'll move on. If the above is too hard to understand I suggest you step away from balance discussion altogether and let others handle it. + Show Spoiler +I can only imagine what Nony thinks when reading threads like this; or anyone else with a similar major. I know I have to restrain myself @_@;; not sure if srs it takes like 10 seconds of thinking to realize the raven change does not do shit in lategame TvZ -there is absolutely no point in "testing" this, especially not for a progamer. if you need even more reasoning then provided here I am not sure if its not you that should step away from this discussion tbh
First off, are you qualified to make that statement? I'd venture a guess at saying no. Second off, you are thinking about this linearly. You are assuming Ravens are going to be used in the same fashion with this patch as prior to this patch without any new implications the patch can make for the unit. That is to say, the game leading up to late game is absolutely unchanged with this patch and thus late game is the same. I think an argument could be made here, but as I'm not qualified to talk on TvZ I can't say. Lastly, if you really think there is no point in putting ANY testing into this patch then we might as well not test anything because it does not match the predetermined role we have assigned to said unit. Some will agree with us, and therefore, we will fight for the unit to be made this way. Otherwise, it's broken, or just isn't good enough with those proposed changes. That is not a good approach to a problem, I'm sorry. :/
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On November 22 2012 02:05 Destructicon wrote: The amount of ignorance and hate in this thread is is so palpable that it hurts.
Avilo brought up a 100% valid argument, the current change tested on the balance map does absolutely nothing, it does not address the core issue with the Raven, the accessibility and immediate usefulness. To give you an actually idea how how slow a caster regenerates energy, it takes 50 seconds for one to accumulate 25 energy, that is 0.5 energy per second. Without the energy upgrade it literally takes 150 in game seconds for the Raven to have enough energy for HSM, and even with the upgrade it needs 100 seconds, that's as long as it takes for a single fucking spire to morph, that's 10 seconds longer then it takes to build 1 fucking BC.
I literally don't see anyone attacking Avilo's points directly, I see people just attack Avilo due to ignorance, and their own stupidity and bias, while still ignoring his well thought out and well reasoned arguments.
This is why we actually need people to theorycraft on balance changes, because Blizzard has shown its willingness to listen, but they keep going about changing the wrong things, the things that either don't make any sense or don't have any impact at all.
You guys say Avilo's idea is bad? Well say WHY its bad. Point out, how is it going to break the MU? What theoretical timing do you think you could hit with this new change? Is there no way to stop said timing?
I agree here. I am not a fan of Avilo at all. But he stated a legitimate problem, gave a reasonable suggestion as to how to fix it. He didn't tell us THIS IS WHAT YOU ALL HAVE TO DO IM RIGHT MWAHAHA. He just said that this is a change that could work, and that we should give it some thought.
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It's truly a shame that a bunch of random nobodies feel the need to bash on someone for bringing up a really valid point. Avilo has a strong point. He also probably has the most experience with terran air units. He is pretty well educated on this. Either increase raven starting energy with the corvid reactor upgrade like he suggests, or decreased the amount of energy required to use hsm/pdd. Both would achieve the same effect while the later would allow an extra hsm(which would probably make the raven strong but still not nearly as strong as the infestor)
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Oh good, an avilo thread. Come on dude. Let the changes percolate a bit. Who knows what random influences this can have. And besides Blizz has said they want to make further challenges. Chillax a bit
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