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On December 05 2017 03:56 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 03:43 KwarK wrote:
Wow! They're going with "how can it be wrong to refuse service to homosexuals if it's not wrong to refuse service to homophobes?!"
What's next? Making it legal to racially discriminate in employment because it's legal to discriminate against racists?
How are these people going through life completely unaware that they're all total fucking idiots? Did nobody tell them? At least once a day, that's why the word "idiot" has no meaning and should just stop being used.
You know, if people stopped calling me an idiot, maybe I'd stop sniffing glue.
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On December 05 2017 04:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 04:00 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:49 Logo wrote:On December 05 2017 03:47 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:33 brian wrote:On December 05 2017 03:09 Danglars wrote:
Oral arguments on Masterpiece Cakeshop begin tomorrow.
false equivalence a+. though i can’t see the progressive win here, sexual preference isn’t a protected class yet is it? but i guess while government has run amok with foregoing all checks and balances there’s no reason the courts can’t make it so. Which discrimination do you find legal? When the bakeries don’t like the message (celebratory or antagonistic to gay marriage) or the government commission doesn’t like the message? It really just sounds like you like one flavor of discrimination, in this case shared by people in power against the powerless. Very progressive, I might add. Do you dislike the protected classes that the US currently has? Basically all these bakery talks are is people saying, in a roundabout way, that sexual orientation and gender identity should be protected classes. It's not that hard and it's not some weird moral quandary. No, not really. At issue is custom designs, because it’s uncontested that the cake shop has long served gay and lesbian customers their baked goods. Maybe your “no moral quandary” wants to give your easy moral analysis at the other bakeries allowed to discriminate against religious customers? Religion is a protected class, so that would be illegal.
Except a view held because of religious belief probably isn't the same thing as a religion. Is there precedence for that?
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On December 05 2017 03:31 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +President Donald Trump‘s attorney John Dowd has sided with Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz in asserting that, as a matter of constitutional law, a president cannot be guilty of the crime of obstruction of justice, even though such a claim might support an impeachment action.
But even assuming that the Constitution does not fully protect the president, it is clear than any construction of “obstruction of justice” to include a president ordering – directly or indirectly, and regardless of motive – the discontinuance of a criminal proceeding does at least raise serious constitutional issues.
Many courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court, have held – under what is sometimes called the “clear statement rule” – that statutes which are not completely clear on their face should not be interpreted in such a way as to raise serious constitutional issues unless Congress has unmistakably made clear its intent that it wished to push constitutional boundaries.
Thus, even if Dowd and Dershowitz have read the Constitution too expansively, the president cannot be guilty of obstruction of justice as a simple matter of statutory interpretation.
While there is precedent that deliberate interference with a criminal investigation or prosecution can constitute “obstruction of justice” for the purposes of impeachment, it is far from clear that such action, if undertaken by the President, would violate any federal obstruction statute. Such conduct does not seem to fall within the definitions of federal obstruction crimes.
As the Congressional Research Service explains:
Obstruction of justice is the frustration of governmental purposes by violence, corruption, destruction of evidence, or deceit. . . . The general federal obstruction of justice provisions are six: 18 U.S.C. 1512 (tampering with federal witnesses), 1513 (retaliating against federal witnesses), 1503 (obstruction of pending federal court proceedings), 1505 (obstruction of pending congressional or federal administrative proceedings), 371 (conspiracy), and contempt. In addition to these, there are a host of other statutes that penalize obstruction by violence, corruption, destruction of evidence, or deceit.
None of these statutes include the termination of investigations by the person actually overseeing them.
Some experts have tried to compare President Trump’s efforts to end the FBI’s investigation with the words of the criminal obstruction statute to see if what is known about his activities and motives might fall within its statutory definition.
But there appears to have been little if any focus on the unique legal authority of any president to terminate criminal investigations by giving direct orders or even indirect hints to subordinates, including his attorney general, the FBI director, or others.
This is a power which might take any such orders – direct, indirect, or even those by implication or suggestion – outside the purview of the criminal obstruction of justice law.
Indeed, Dershowitz has gone even further, arguing, “You cannot charge a president with obstruction of justice for exercising his constitutional power to fire Comey and his constitutional authority to tell the Justice Department who to investigate, who not to investigate. That’s what Thomas Jefferson did, that’s what Lincoln did, that’s what Roosevelt did. We have precedents that clearly establish that,” he said.
Moreover, any president has the unquestioned authority to terminate an investigation concerning any one of more individuals by simply issuing a pardon – as Ford did for Nixon – absolving them of criminal liability for any crimes they may have committed without specifying them. So it’s hard to see how achieving the same result by ordering the discontinuation of a criminal proceeding would be so much more serious as to constitute a felony.
Both the words and the intent of the federal obstruction of justice statute appear to apply primarily to outsiders using clearly improper methods (e.g., bribery) to interfere with the investigation and prosecutorial process being conducted by authorized governmental officials, not necessarily to decisions by those very officials in charge to use their lawful authority to suspend an investigation, decline to prosecute, etc.
Thus, while a president who deliberately falsified or withheld evidence, encouraged perjury, forged documents to implicate someone of a crime, etc. might technically be guilty of conduct proscribed by the statute, any decision by him to simply terminate an investigation or prosecution may not constitute a crime.
For example, a decision by a U.S. attorney or other prosecutor to discontinue a prosecution – even if for an improper motive such as to protect a friend – may not constitute obstruction, although it may open him to other sanctions. Moreover, since prosecutors enjoy absolute immunity for actions taken in their official capacity, he probably would not be liable criminally or even civilly.
If that is true of the prosecutor, the low man on the totem pole, the same would seem to apply to any government official who directs – even contrary to well established custom – that a prosecution be discontinued, including the attorney general or even the top law enforcement official, the president.
That’s why, in upholding in Morrison v. Olson the unique statute which provided for the appointment of an independent counsel, the Supreme Court stressed the constitutional imperative that federal prosecutions must be under the control of the president who is ultimately responsible for law enforcement.
Those conducting such investigations must therefore be subject to his control as the head of the executive branch, and he may fire them if they disobey his orders, including orders to stop investigating.
Indeed, this is exactly what happened in the “Saturday Night Massacre” where President Nixon used his firing authority to terminate part of an investigation to which he had objected.
Although this action had disastrous political repercussions, and led to a unique statute which would permit the appointment of a somewhat independent special prosecutor – who was still part of the executive branch under the president, and subject to presidential termination indirectly by his attorney general for cause – Nixon’s firings themselves would not seem to constitute the federal crime of obstruction of justice.
In any event, any discussion of potential criminal liability for Trump may be academic, since the weight of legal authority holds that a sitting president cannot be indicted or tried for any crime while in office, and he can probably pardon himself, because the sole remedy for presidential wrongdoing is impeachment.
John F. Banzhaf III is a professor of public interest law at the George Washington University Law School. lawandcrime.comI don't agree but I'm sure variants of this argument are going to start coming out
We’re down to “it’s not illegal.” Certainly different from the first stance of “it didn’t happen.”
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On December 05 2017 04:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 04:00 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:49 Logo wrote:On December 05 2017 03:47 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:33 brian wrote:false equivalence a+. though i can’t see the progressive win here, sexual preference isn’t a protected class yet is it? but i guess while government has run amok with foregoing all checks and balances there’s no reason the courts can’t make it so. Which discrimination do you find legal? When the bakeries don’t like the message (celebratory or antagonistic to gay marriage) or the government commission doesn’t like the message? It really just sounds like you like one flavor of discrimination, in this case shared by people in power against the powerless. Very progressive, I might add. Do you dislike the protected classes that the US currently has? Basically all these bakery talks are is people saying, in a roundabout way, that sexual orientation and gender identity should be protected classes. It's not that hard and it's not some weird moral quandary. No, not really. At issue is custom designs, because it’s uncontested that the cake shop has long served gay and lesbian customers their baked goods. Maybe your “no moral quandary” wants to give your easy moral analysis at the other bakeries allowed to discriminate against religious customers? Religion is a protected class, so that would be illegal.
Yet the Colorado commission sees no issues discriminating against religious customers based on the cakes they want made.
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United States43540 Posts
On December 05 2017 04:07 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 04:02 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 04:00 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:49 Logo wrote:On December 05 2017 03:47 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:33 brian wrote:false equivalence a+. though i can’t see the progressive win here, sexual preference isn’t a protected class yet is it? but i guess while government has run amok with foregoing all checks and balances there’s no reason the courts can’t make it so. Which discrimination do you find legal? When the bakeries don’t like the message (celebratory or antagonistic to gay marriage) or the government commission doesn’t like the message? It really just sounds like you like one flavor of discrimination, in this case shared by people in power against the powerless. Very progressive, I might add. Do you dislike the protected classes that the US currently has? Basically all these bakery talks are is people saying, in a roundabout way, that sexual orientation and gender identity should be protected classes. It's not that hard and it's not some weird moral quandary. No, not really. At issue is custom designs, because it’s uncontested that the cake shop has long served gay and lesbian customers their baked goods. Maybe your “no moral quandary” wants to give your easy moral analysis at the other bakeries allowed to discriminate against religious customers? Religion is a protected class, so that would be illegal. Except a view held because of religious belief probably isn't the same thing as a religion. Is there precedence for that?
Mormons used to have a bunch of religious beliefs about black folks that contradicted civil rights. I'd assume that's a precedent. That said, FLDS still exist so who knows.
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On December 03 2017 10:40 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2017 09:57 Excludos wrote:
I was about to comment something earlier but was unsure of the legality of firing someone you know lied to the fbi without informing them of it. But I had completely forgot he fired Comey over it too. This is 100% obstruction of justice. The thing here is that since Yates warned the WH that the intercepts on Flynn showed that he had lied, the Trump admin could say that’s how they knew he lied. Problem is that before firing Flynn trump asked Comey to drop the investigation. Their public explanation for why they fired Flynn (that he lied to the administration) was a total lie because Flynn was acting on orders at all times when he was talking to the Russians. I am not quite sure how to sort all this out.
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On December 05 2017 04:07 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 04:02 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 04:00 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:49 Logo wrote:On December 05 2017 03:47 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:33 brian wrote:false equivalence a+. though i can’t see the progressive win here, sexual preference isn’t a protected class yet is it? but i guess while government has run amok with foregoing all checks and balances there’s no reason the courts can’t make it so. Which discrimination do you find legal? When the bakeries don’t like the message (celebratory or antagonistic to gay marriage) or the government commission doesn’t like the message? It really just sounds like you like one flavor of discrimination, in this case shared by people in power against the powerless. Very progressive, I might add. Do you dislike the protected classes that the US currently has? Basically all these bakery talks are is people saying, in a roundabout way, that sexual orientation and gender identity should be protected classes. It's not that hard and it's not some weird moral quandary. No, not really. At issue is custom designs, because it’s uncontested that the cake shop has long served gay and lesbian customers their baked goods. Maybe your “no moral quandary” wants to give your easy moral analysis at the other bakeries allowed to discriminate against religious customers? Religion is a protected class, so that would be illegal. Except a view held because of religious belief probably isn't the same thing as a religion. Is there precedence for that?
Yes. I cannot deny someone service for being Christian. I can deny them service for being an asshole that uses their Christianity as an excuse to be an asshole. People who deny gay couples service are part of that second group.
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On December 05 2017 03:43 KwarK wrote:
Wow! They're going with "how can it be wrong to refuse service to homosexuals if it's not wrong to refuse service to homophobes?!"
What's next? Making it legal to racially discriminate in employment because it's legal to discriminate against racists?
How are these people going through life completely unaware that they're all total fucking idiots? Did nobody tell them?
This ignores all nuance of the case. The baker has already offered to sell all other regular baked goods. It only declines to sell wedding cakes, as a wedding has religious meaning to a Christian.
It's not hard to imagine that if you're a Christian baker and you legitimately believe a gay marriage will condemn the participants to Hell, that it's your religious duty not to abet it. Forcing the baker to make the cake is a legitimate infringement on religious beliefs there.
If the baker refuses to sell anything to gays, then obviously there's no case. But that isn't what's happening.
Considering there's presumably no shortage of suitable bakers capable of making a worthy cake, the harms here aren't really apparent either. That weakens the case some as well.
Colorado could try to argue that it's difficult/impossible to determine who is actually religious and who isn't, but that's still a much different discussion than what you're trying to reduce this too.
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United States43540 Posts
On December 05 2017 04:09 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 04:02 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 04:00 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:49 Logo wrote:On December 05 2017 03:47 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:33 brian wrote:false equivalence a+. though i can’t see the progressive win here, sexual preference isn’t a protected class yet is it? but i guess while government has run amok with foregoing all checks and balances there’s no reason the courts can’t make it so. Which discrimination do you find legal? When the bakeries don’t like the message (celebratory or antagonistic to gay marriage) or the government commission doesn’t like the message? It really just sounds like you like one flavor of discrimination, in this case shared by people in power against the powerless. Very progressive, I might add. Do you dislike the protected classes that the US currently has? Basically all these bakery talks are is people saying, in a roundabout way, that sexual orientation and gender identity should be protected classes. It's not that hard and it's not some weird moral quandary. No, not really. At issue is custom designs, because it’s uncontested that the cake shop has long served gay and lesbian customers their baked goods. Maybe your “no moral quandary” wants to give your easy moral analysis at the other bakeries allowed to discriminate against religious customers? Religion is a protected class, so that would be illegal. Yet the Colorado commission sees no issues discriminating against religious customers based on the cakes they want made.
They didn't discriminate against the bakery because it was Christian. If an atheist had done the same they would have received the same verdict.
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On December 05 2017 04:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 04:00 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:49 Logo wrote:On December 05 2017 03:47 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:33 brian wrote:false equivalence a+. though i can’t see the progressive win here, sexual preference isn’t a protected class yet is it? but i guess while government has run amok with foregoing all checks and balances there’s no reason the courts can’t make it so. Which discrimination do you find legal? When the bakeries don’t like the message (celebratory or antagonistic to gay marriage) or the government commission doesn’t like the message? It really just sounds like you like one flavor of discrimination, in this case shared by people in power against the powerless. Very progressive, I might add. Do you dislike the protected classes that the US currently has? Basically all these bakery talks are is people saying, in a roundabout way, that sexual orientation and gender identity should be protected classes. It's not that hard and it's not some weird moral quandary. No, not really. At issue is custom designs, because it’s uncontested that the cake shop has long served gay and lesbian customers their baked goods. Maybe your “no moral quandary” wants to give your easy moral analysis at the other bakeries allowed to discriminate against religious customers? Religion is a protected class, so that would be illegal. Gays do not enjoy that protection due to a failure to update the civil rights act to include them. But hey, if you want to open up Pandora's box just so this baker can avoid feeding people at a gay wedding, that's cool. Just don't come whining to us when 200 "religious freedom" laws appear in red states that all happen to allow discrimination against homosexuals. Because you were warned.
On the contrary, once state commissions can punish certain individuals at their will, red states are empowered to discriminate against different groups than Colorado selects.
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On December 05 2017 04:09 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 04:02 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 04:00 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:49 Logo wrote:On December 05 2017 03:47 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:33 brian wrote:false equivalence a+. though i can’t see the progressive win here, sexual preference isn’t a protected class yet is it? but i guess while government has run amok with foregoing all checks and balances there’s no reason the courts can’t make it so. Which discrimination do you find legal? When the bakeries don’t like the message (celebratory or antagonistic to gay marriage) or the government commission doesn’t like the message? It really just sounds like you like one flavor of discrimination, in this case shared by people in power against the powerless. Very progressive, I might add. Do you dislike the protected classes that the US currently has? Basically all these bakery talks are is people saying, in a roundabout way, that sexual orientation and gender identity should be protected classes. It's not that hard and it's not some weird moral quandary. No, not really. At issue is custom designs, because it’s uncontested that the cake shop has long served gay and lesbian customers their baked goods. Maybe your “no moral quandary” wants to give your easy moral analysis at the other bakeries allowed to discriminate against religious customers? Religion is a protected class, so that would be illegal. Yet the Colorado commission sees no issues discriminating against religious customers based on the cakes they want made.
That is cake based discrimination, not religious. Being a member of a religion is protected. Your specific interpretation of that religion is not. You can't go to the store nude and then claim you are being discriminated against because cloths are a sin.
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On December 05 2017 04:10 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 03:43 KwarK wrote:
Wow! They're going with "how can it be wrong to refuse service to homosexuals if it's not wrong to refuse service to homophobes?!"
What's next? Making it legal to racially discriminate in employment because it's legal to discriminate against racists?
How are these people going through life completely unaware that they're all total fucking idiots? Did nobody tell them? This ignores all nuance of the case. The baker has already offered to sell all other regular baked goods. It only declines to sell wedding cakes, as a wedding has religious meaning to a Christian. It's not hard to imagine that if you're a Christian baker and you legitimately believe a gay marriage will condemn the participants to Hell, that it's your religious duty not to abet it. Forcing the baker to make the cake is a legitimate infringement on religious beliefs there. If the baker refuses to sell anything to gays, then obviously there's no case. But that isn't what's happening.
If it was a caterer who wouldn't cater interracial marriages but didn't deny other services to African Americans then would you have the same view?
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On December 05 2017 03:55 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 03:47 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:33 brian wrote:false equivalence a+. though i can’t see the progressive win here, sexual preference isn’t a protected class yet is it? but i guess while government has run amok with foregoing all checks and balances there’s no reason the courts can’t make it so. Which discrimination do you find legal? When the bakeries don’t like the message (celebratory or antagonistic to gay marriage) or the government commission doesn’t like the message? It really just sounds like you like one flavor of discrimination, in this case shared by people in power against the powerless. Very progressive, I might add. i find ‘discrimination’ legal when it’s done on any basis not regarding protected classes. i don’t differ from the legal definitions here. if sexual preference were protected, only one of those examples is discrimination. again, i’m pretty sure it’s not, and so neither are. try taking off your partisan blinders. this has nothing at all to do with my own ideals. if it were up to me, yes, sexual orientation would be a protected class in which case only one of these examples is discrimination. people that hate gay marriage are not a protected class. and shouldn’t be. that’s woefully stupid.
Religion or creed is a protected class. On principle, you disagree with the Colorado commission discriminating against religious individuals that were turned down seeking cakes more in tune with their religious beliefs.
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On December 05 2017 04:10 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 03:43 KwarK wrote:
Wow! They're going with "how can it be wrong to refuse service to homosexuals if it's not wrong to refuse service to homophobes?!"
What's next? Making it legal to racially discriminate in employment because it's legal to discriminate against racists?
How are these people going through life completely unaware that they're all total fucking idiots? Did nobody tell them? This ignores all nuance of the case. The baker has already offered to sell all other regular baked goods. It only declines to sell wedding cakes, as a wedding has religious meaning to a Christian. It's not hard to imagine that if you're a Christian baker and you legitimately believe a gay marriage will condemn the participants to Hell, that it's your religious duty not to abet it. Forcing the baker to make the cake is a legitimate infringement on religious beliefs there. If the baker refuses to sell anything to gays, then obviously there's no case. But that isn't what's happening.
and while you’re getting deep into nuance, you’re not quite nailing it. that the bakery sells to other gays doesn’t prove innocence. the question is why the bakery doesn’t service this customers. does the bakery sell wedding cakes? yea. to the gay couple? no.
if being gay was a protected class, this is illegal. hands down. having sold to gays before is irrelevant.
On December 05 2017 04:15 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 03:55 brian wrote:On December 05 2017 03:47 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:33 brian wrote:false equivalence a+. though i can’t see the progressive win here, sexual preference isn’t a protected class yet is it? but i guess while government has run amok with foregoing all checks and balances there’s no reason the courts can’t make it so. Which discrimination do you find legal? When the bakeries don’t like the message (celebratory or antagonistic to gay marriage) or the government commission doesn’t like the message? It really just sounds like you like one flavor of discrimination, in this case shared by people in power against the powerless. Very progressive, I might add. i find ‘discrimination’ legal when it’s done on any basis not regarding protected classes. i don’t differ from the legal definitions here. if sexual preference were protected, only one of those examples is discrimination. again, i’m pretty sure it’s not, and so neither are. try taking off your partisan blinders. this has nothing at all to do with my own ideals. if it were up to me, yes, sexual orientation would be a protected class in which case only one of these examples is discrimination. people that hate gay marriage are not a protected class. and shouldn’t be. that’s woefully stupid. Religion or creed is a protected class. On principle, you disagree with the Colorado commission discriminating against religious individuals that were turned down seeking cakes more in tune with their religious beliefs.
your first sentence is correct, though it has no bearing on either your second sentence or your earlier question. they were not denied on the basis of being christian. as funny as it would be to pin christianity as the end all be all of homophobia, that is not the case.
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Since Nevuk postted about obstruction here is an interesting piece from NRO. The author has been posted here before.
The smoke is clearing from an explosive Mueller investigation weekend of charges, chattering, and tweets. Before the next aftershock, it might be helpful to make three points about where things stand. In ascending order of importance, they are:
1.) There is a great deal of misinformation in the commentariat about how prosecutors build cases.
2.) For all practical purposes, the collusion probe is over. While the “counterintelligence” cover will continue to be exploited so that no jurisdictional limits are placed on Special Counsel Robert Mueller, this is now an obstruction investigation.
3.) That means it is, as it has always been, an impeachment investigation.
Building a Case
Many analysts are under the misimpression that it is typical for federal prosecutors to accept guilty pleas on minor charges in exchange for cooperation that helps build a case on major charges. From this flawed premise, they reason that Mueller is methodically constructing a major case on Trump by accepting minor guilty pleas from Michael Flynn and George Papadopoulos for making false statements, and by indicting Paul Manafort and an associate on charges that have nothing to do with Trump or the 2016 election.
That is simply not how it works, strategically or legally.
As I’ve tried to explain a few times now (see here and here), if a prosecutor has an accomplice cooperator who gives the government incriminating information about the major scheme under investigation, he pressures the accomplice to plead guilty to the major scheme, not to an ancillary process crime — and particularly not to false-statements charges.
Strategically, and for public-relations purposes (which are not inconsequential in a high-profile corruption investigation, just ask Ken Starr), a guilty plea to the major scheme under investigation proves that the major scheme really happened — here, some kind of criminal collusion (i.e., conspiracy) in Russia’s espionage operation against the 2016 election. The guilty-plea allocution, in which the accomplice explains to the court what he and others did to carry out the scheme, puts enormous pressure on other accomplices to come forward and cooperate. In a political corruption case, it can drive public officials out of office.
Justice Department policy calls for prosecutors to indict a defendant on the most serious readily provable charge, not to plead out a case on minor charges to obtain cooperation. The federal sentencing guidelines also encourage this. They allow a judge to sentence the defendant below the often harsh guidelines calculation. This can mean a cooperator gets as little as zero jail time or time-served, no matter how serious the charges. This sentencing leniency happens only if the defendant pleads guilty and provides substantial assistance to the government’s investigation. That is what enables the prosecutor to entice an accomplice to cooperate; the prosecutor does not need to entice cooperation by pleading the case out for a song.
The practice of pressuring a guilty plea to the major charges makes the accomplice a formidable witness at trial. The jury will know that he is facing a potential sentence of perhaps decades in prison unless he discloses everything he knows and tells the truth in his testimony. That is what triggers the prosecutor’s obligation to file the motion that allows the court to sentence under the guidelines-recommended sentence.
Trading a plea on minor charges for cooperation is a foolish gambit that badly damages the prosecutor’s case. It suggests that the cooperator must not have disclosed details about the major scheme. Otherwise the prosecutor would have charged him with it. It implies that the prosecutor is so desperate to make a case on a major target that he gave bad actors a pass on serious charges — something experienced prosecutors know that juries hate.
It is even worse to plead accomplices out on false-statements counts. This establishes that the main thing the jury should know about the accomplice is that he is not to be trusted. That is not how you make someone a strong witness. And unlike the accomplice who pleads guilty to the major scheme, an accomplice who pleads guilty to false statements is looking at a maximum sentence of just five years and a more likely sentence of no time even before he has cooperated — not much of an incentive to disclose everything and tell the truth. A good prosecutor does not front-load the benefits of cooperation; he makes the accomplice earn sentencing leniency by full disclosure and testimony.
The pleas and the indictment have nothing to do with collusion because Mueller has no collusion case.
Bottom line: If the FBI had a collusion case of some kind, after well over a year of intensive investigation, Flynn and Papadopoulos would have been pressured to plead guilty to very serious charges — and those serious offenses would be reflected in the charges lodged against Manafort. Obviously, the pleas and the indictment have nothing to do with collusion because Mueller has no collusion case.
It’s Now an Obstruction Investigation
...
rest here
http://amp.nationalreview.com/article/454311/mueller-strategy-obstruction-justice-investigation-leading-impeachment
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On December 05 2017 04:13 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 04:10 mozoku wrote:On December 05 2017 03:43 KwarK wrote:
Wow! They're going with "how can it be wrong to refuse service to homosexuals if it's not wrong to refuse service to homophobes?!"
What's next? Making it legal to racially discriminate in employment because it's legal to discriminate against racists?
How are these people going through life completely unaware that they're all total fucking idiots? Did nobody tell them? This ignores all nuance of the case. The baker has already offered to sell all other regular baked goods. It only declines to sell wedding cakes, as a wedding has religious meaning to a Christian. It's not hard to imagine that if you're a Christian baker and you legitimately believe a gay marriage will condemn the participants to Hell, that it's your religious duty not to abet it. Forcing the baker to make the cake is a legitimate infringement on religious beliefs there. If the baker refuses to sell anything to gays, then obviously there's no case. But that isn't what's happening. If it was a caterer who wouldn't cater interracial marriages but didn't deny other services to African Americans then would you have the same view?
What religion has any remotely defensible interpretation that condemns interracial marriages?
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United States43540 Posts
On December 05 2017 04:18 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 04:13 KwarK wrote:On December 05 2017 04:10 mozoku wrote:On December 05 2017 03:43 KwarK wrote:
Wow! They're going with "how can it be wrong to refuse service to homosexuals if it's not wrong to refuse service to homophobes?!"
What's next? Making it legal to racially discriminate in employment because it's legal to discriminate against racists?
How are these people going through life completely unaware that they're all total fucking idiots? Did nobody tell them? This ignores all nuance of the case. The baker has already offered to sell all other regular baked goods. It only declines to sell wedding cakes, as a wedding has religious meaning to a Christian. It's not hard to imagine that if you're a Christian baker and you legitimately believe a gay marriage will condemn the participants to Hell, that it's your religious duty not to abet it. Forcing the baker to make the cake is a legitimate infringement on religious beliefs there. If the baker refuses to sell anything to gays, then obviously there's no case. But that isn't what's happening. If it was a caterer who wouldn't cater interracial marriages but didn't deny other services to African Americans then would you have the same view? What religion has any remotely defendable interpretation that condemns interracial marriages?
Mormonism.
FLDS for example. But either way the question merits an answer. If the argument works for a gay wedding cake then it must also work for an interracial wedding cake. Either religious beliefs trump protected classes or they don't.
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On December 05 2017 04:15 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 04:10 mozoku wrote:On December 05 2017 03:43 KwarK wrote:
Wow! They're going with "how can it be wrong to refuse service to homosexuals if it's not wrong to refuse service to homophobes?!"
What's next? Making it legal to racially discriminate in employment because it's legal to discriminate against racists?
How are these people going through life completely unaware that they're all total fucking idiots? Did nobody tell them? This ignores all nuance of the case. The baker has already offered to sell all other regular baked goods. It only declines to sell wedding cakes, as a wedding has religious meaning to a Christian. It's not hard to imagine that if you're a Christian baker and you legitimately believe a gay marriage will condemn the participants to Hell, that it's your religious duty not to abet it. Forcing the baker to make the cake is a legitimate infringement on religious beliefs there. If the baker refuses to sell anything to gays, then obviously there's no case. But that isn't what's happening. and while you’re getting deep into nuance, you’re not quite nailing it. that the bakery sells to other gays doesn’t prove innocence. the question is why the bakery doesn’t service this customers. does the bakery sell wedding cakes? yea. to the gay couple? no. if being gay was a protected class, this is illegal. hands down. having sold to gays before is irrelevant. Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 04:15 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:55 brian wrote:On December 05 2017 03:47 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:33 brian wrote:false equivalence a+. though i can’t see the progressive win here, sexual preference isn’t a protected class yet is it? but i guess while government has run amok with foregoing all checks and balances there’s no reason the courts can’t make it so. Which discrimination do you find legal? When the bakeries don’t like the message (celebratory or antagonistic to gay marriage) or the government commission doesn’t like the message? It really just sounds like you like one flavor of discrimination, in this case shared by people in power against the powerless. Very progressive, I might add. i find ‘discrimination’ legal when it’s done on any basis not regarding protected classes. i don’t differ from the legal definitions here. if sexual preference were protected, only one of those examples is discrimination. again, i’m pretty sure it’s not, and so neither are. try taking off your partisan blinders. this has nothing at all to do with my own ideals. if it were up to me, yes, sexual orientation would be a protected class in which case only one of these examples is discrimination. people that hate gay marriage are not a protected class. and shouldn’t be. that’s woefully stupid. Religion or creed is a protected class. On principle, you disagree with the Colorado commission discriminating against religious individuals that were turned down seeking cakes more in tune with their religious beliefs. your first sentence is correct, though it has no bearing on either your second sentence or your earlier question. they were not denied on the basis of being christian.
Neither were the gay couple denied on the basis of being gay.
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On December 05 2017 04:19 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 04:15 brian wrote:On December 05 2017 04:10 mozoku wrote:On December 05 2017 03:43 KwarK wrote:
Wow! They're going with "how can it be wrong to refuse service to homosexuals if it's not wrong to refuse service to homophobes?!"
What's next? Making it legal to racially discriminate in employment because it's legal to discriminate against racists?
How are these people going through life completely unaware that they're all total fucking idiots? Did nobody tell them? This ignores all nuance of the case. The baker has already offered to sell all other regular baked goods. It only declines to sell wedding cakes, as a wedding has religious meaning to a Christian. It's not hard to imagine that if you're a Christian baker and you legitimately believe a gay marriage will condemn the participants to Hell, that it's your religious duty not to abet it. Forcing the baker to make the cake is a legitimate infringement on religious beliefs there. If the baker refuses to sell anything to gays, then obviously there's no case. But that isn't what's happening. and while you’re getting deep into nuance, you’re not quite nailing it. that the bakery sells to other gays doesn’t prove innocence. the question is why the bakery doesn’t service this customers. does the bakery sell wedding cakes? yea. to the gay couple? no. if being gay was a protected class, this is illegal. hands down. having sold to gays before is irrelevant. On December 05 2017 04:15 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:55 brian wrote:On December 05 2017 03:47 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:33 brian wrote:false equivalence a+. though i can’t see the progressive win here, sexual preference isn’t a protected class yet is it? but i guess while government has run amok with foregoing all checks and balances there’s no reason the courts can’t make it so. Which discrimination do you find legal? When the bakeries don’t like the message (celebratory or antagonistic to gay marriage) or the government commission doesn’t like the message? It really just sounds like you like one flavor of discrimination, in this case shared by people in power against the powerless. Very progressive, I might add. i find ‘discrimination’ legal when it’s done on any basis not regarding protected classes. i don’t differ from the legal definitions here. if sexual preference were protected, only one of those examples is discrimination. again, i’m pretty sure it’s not, and so neither are. try taking off your partisan blinders. this has nothing at all to do with my own ideals. if it were up to me, yes, sexual orientation would be a protected class in which case only one of these examples is discrimination. people that hate gay marriage are not a protected class. and shouldn’t be. that’s woefully stupid. Religion or creed is a protected class. On principle, you disagree with the Colorado commission discriminating against religious individuals that were turned down seeking cakes more in tune with their religious beliefs. your first sentence is correct, though it has no bearing on either your second sentence or your earlier question. they were not denied on the basis of being christian. Neither were the gay couple denied on the basis of being gay.
assuming the bakery serves wedding cakes(it does), not serving wedding cakes to gay couples has no other reason. but i don’t have the time or inclination to tell you how and when discrimination is discrimination. their religious beliefs driving them to this conclusion does not change the conclusion.
i don’t even think this was discrimination in the first place. even though i’d like it to be. that’s just not how the law works.
looks like it has been a protected class in colorado since 2008, nice! then this is totally illegal. it’s nice to be wrong.
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On December 05 2017 04:21 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 04:19 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 04:15 brian wrote:On December 05 2017 04:10 mozoku wrote:On December 05 2017 03:43 KwarK wrote:
Wow! They're going with "how can it be wrong to refuse service to homosexuals if it's not wrong to refuse service to homophobes?!"
What's next? Making it legal to racially discriminate in employment because it's legal to discriminate against racists?
How are these people going through life completely unaware that they're all total fucking idiots? Did nobody tell them? This ignores all nuance of the case. The baker has already offered to sell all other regular baked goods. It only declines to sell wedding cakes, as a wedding has religious meaning to a Christian. It's not hard to imagine that if you're a Christian baker and you legitimately believe a gay marriage will condemn the participants to Hell, that it's your religious duty not to abet it. Forcing the baker to make the cake is a legitimate infringement on religious beliefs there. If the baker refuses to sell anything to gays, then obviously there's no case. But that isn't what's happening. and while you’re getting deep into nuance, you’re not quite nailing it. that the bakery sells to other gays doesn’t prove innocence. the question is why the bakery doesn’t service this customers. does the bakery sell wedding cakes? yea. to the gay couple? no. if being gay was a protected class, this is illegal. hands down. having sold to gays before is irrelevant. On December 05 2017 04:15 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:55 brian wrote:On December 05 2017 03:47 Danglars wrote:On December 05 2017 03:33 brian wrote:false equivalence a+. though i can’t see the progressive win here, sexual preference isn’t a protected class yet is it? but i guess while government has run amok with foregoing all checks and balances there’s no reason the courts can’t make it so. Which discrimination do you find legal? When the bakeries don’t like the message (celebratory or antagonistic to gay marriage) or the government commission doesn’t like the message? It really just sounds like you like one flavor of discrimination, in this case shared by people in power against the powerless. Very progressive, I might add. i find ‘discrimination’ legal when it’s done on any basis not regarding protected classes. i don’t differ from the legal definitions here. if sexual preference were protected, only one of those examples is discrimination. again, i’m pretty sure it’s not, and so neither are. try taking off your partisan blinders. this has nothing at all to do with my own ideals. if it were up to me, yes, sexual orientation would be a protected class in which case only one of these examples is discrimination. people that hate gay marriage are not a protected class. and shouldn’t be. that’s woefully stupid. Religion or creed is a protected class. On principle, you disagree with the Colorado commission discriminating against religious individuals that were turned down seeking cakes more in tune with their religious beliefs. your first sentence is correct, though it has no bearing on either your second sentence or your earlier question. they were not denied on the basis of being christian. Neither were the gay couple denied on the basis of being gay. assuming the bakery serves wedding cakes(it does), not serving wedding cakes to gay couples has no other reason. but i don’t have the time or inclination to tell you how and when discrimination is discrimination. their religious beliefs driving them to this conclusion does not change the conclusion. i don’t even think this was discrimination in the first place. even though i’d like it to be. that’s just not how the law works.
It sells pre-made wedding cakes to gay couples.
You’re discriminating based on message against religious customers and for gay customers, and content with government privileging certain groups. You’re just lucky the bureaucrats in charge agree with who you think deserve to be discriminated against.
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