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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
I wonder, do the coal miner employees in the west region get paid 4 times as much as the other areas? I do remember economists trying to tell me that an increase in productivity means a rise in wages, but i always thought that was a load of tosh.
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jonny -> we discuss coal so muhc cause it was made a cause celebre and rallying cry by some politicians, which made it garner more attention for awhile. because it served as a stand-in for blue-collar work, and was easily recognizable as such.
not sure if you wanted answers to any of your other points.
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On November 28 2017 09:03 doomdonker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 08:48 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2017 08:43 doomdonker wrote:On November 28 2017 08:18 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2017 08:08 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:
[quote]
If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices.
Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community.
Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations.
But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game.
I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
You might actually persuade them to your side.
Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth. You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them. I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics. In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families. I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. My problem with 'Rural Americans voted for Trump 'because the country left them behind' is that Trump in no way represents their interests. They fell for the same con they have fallen for for decades and after Trump disappointing them they will run off to the next conman who promises them everything they want to hear. I get that people don't want to accept the truth, yes the country failed them by not restructuring the economy decades ago away from failing industries, yes its shit, it sucks and there is no easy way forward. But going 'My dad worked in a coal mine, I want to work in a coal mine' , 'no one wants coal anymore' , 'well, make them use it' doesn't do anything. When offered a choice between a conman promising them the world and a shady politician with a plan she might not follow through on, the voted for the conman. Sorry that I don't feel more sympathy for believing in the impossible. The entire idea of "We're a coal family and we're proud" is a great example of how prone to tribalism humans are. How in the world do you actually positively identify with manual labor. god damn. These people are just so easily manipulated it drives me insane. Coal mining was a well enough paying job to pay for a nice house and develop a nice neighborhood. So people wanting the old life back is expected, it was a good job back then. The problem now is that coal mining is dangerous, unhealthy, increasingly automated and suffering from competition like natural gas and renewable resources. That's the reality of the situation. Unless the USA subsidies coal, they aren't getting their quality of living they once had back. And if we're subsiding (white) coal miners, that's basically welfare to prop up a shrinking industry that even China and India aren't too fond of because its dirty as heck. Subsidizing coal doesn't even work since, as you said, automation means that new and bigger mines won't even meet the demand for work and the work that is offered would require more and more education. That's actually the funny thing about Trump's campaign promise towards coal miners. If you stopped for a second and thought about why coal was dying, the economic and environmental reasons are dead obvious. But that would require some people over there to finally accept the hard truth instead of blaming China/regulations/left wing environmentalists/Democrats/RINOs/globalists/etc.
You don't think coal miners have a legitimate grievance against pretty much all of those groups? All of them essentially worked to put coal miners out of business without any concern for what the coal miners would actually do after they succeeded.
I'm obviously an unabashed advocate of both the free market and free trade but it doesn't take a genius to realize low-skilled coal miners can't easily transfer their skills and tend not to be the type to have both the foresight and requisite character traits to proactively learn a new skillset in preparation for the demise of the coal industry. If you're a 55 year old ex-coal miner without adequate retirement savings (like most Americans) in 2017, what do you even do?
A mass retaining program starting 10-20 years ago for half of Trump's base probably would have easily paid for itself by now. If that had been available and these workers had turned it down, I'd have a lot less sympathy for them but, pragmatically speaking, I expect foresight and good planning to be a trait of the political class--not the working class--thus the much of the onus for the current mess falls on said political class.
To be clear, I'm not saying it justifies Trumpism and total/utter mistrust of elites, but the elites really did fuck up as far as America's working class is concerned.
And some of the sneering around here at coal miners is pretty gross. It's easy to say "lol learn a new profession" when you're a software engineer who has to learn new things for their job everyday and is mentally used to it, but when you're a union worker for 30 years where various career filters have been applied and you probably don't have personality traits that are particularly amenable for learning, the union structure provides no incentive to learn anything new so you haven't done it for 30 years, and you're 55 so your time to profit from your educational investment is 10 years (rather than 40 as for a student), the whole "learn a new profession" thing sounds a lot more daunting and a lot less worth it.
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On November 28 2017 08:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
Wow, that Danglars diatribe about how sad it is people wont be his friend was intense.
ProTip: Don't want people to treat you like a racist douche, don't act like a racist douche, support a racist douche, then complain when people don't want to hang out with a racist douche.
It actually kind of blows my mind people think there's nothing friendship ruining about supporting Trump. He's a terrible human being, beyond his policy, Trump is actually a trash person all around.
If you're friends with Cernovich, you aren't my friend. If you support Trump you aren't my friend. Let me be clear, this isn't a personal thing, this is a "regardless of how much I try to make you my friend, you can't be my friend and be friends with Cernovich, they are mutually exclusive" thing.
You are bad at choosing friends if your friend can also support the destruction of you and/or your family's life. And sure you can call them "friend" but you obviously wouldn't understand the intent of the term.
That doesn't mean I couldn't have a beer with Danglars, just means it would probably end with me punching him in the throat if he tried to talk politics. I would never be foolish enough to consider him a friend either.
Ouch. I thought you were more civilized than to presume a political discussion would turn to blows.
But yes, we've heard your defense of screaming racist at everything because everything is racist before.
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On November 28 2017 07:01 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 06:45 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 06:10 Nebuchad wrote:I'm working on being less petty in the future but here's a 1h video about cultural marxism to counter that 40m video about cultural marxism + Show Spoiler + That's an interview between university professor/administrator ... possibly lawyer ... and a TA. If you're not going to watch it, maybe don't label it before telling everybody through action that you're not going to watch it. I did watch a small portion of it. This is my counter to it.
You watched a small portion of it and said it was about cultural marxism? Was the sound muted?
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On November 28 2017 10:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Why do we even discuss coal so much? More people work at freaking Arby's. Much of the job decline is from automation, and for reference, the EPA started in 1970. ![[image loading]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/US_Coal_Mining_Employment_1890-2014.png/1280px-US_Coal_Mining_Employment_1890-2014.png) Also, unless your coal mine is in the West, it's probably not all that productive. Eastern mines have been around for a while, and the easy coal has already been taken. What's the Appalachian dream here? Bring back the mines... with massive pay cuts? ![[image loading]](https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https%3A%2F%2Fftalphaville-cdn.ft.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F03%2F29165406%2FScreen-Shot-2017-03-29-at-11.18.13-AM.png?source=Alphaville) Coal towns need help, obviously, but trying to bring back coal jobs is a fantasy.
It's good to have some facts and graphs in a debate for a change.
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mozoku -> not seeing your point; from what I see, some of the elites (mostly dems) made a point of TRYING to help those people, with things like job retraining programs and helping people transition to the new system. while others, (mostly republicans) made a point of blocking those attempts to help people, and stringing them along as if everything would be fine if not for X rather than face the reality that their way of life must change.
ergo no legitimate grievance, only an illegitimate one based on false attribution of the blame. the blaming of elites is about perception, not about actual legitimate grievance.
from our point of view, they DID have a retraining program available and turned it down; by voting against the people who would implement one, and in favor of the people who block such programs.
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On November 28 2017 10:01 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Why do we even discuss coal so much? More people work at freaking Arby's. Much of the job decline is from automation, and for reference, the EPA started in 1970. + Show Spoiler [snip graph things] +Also, unless your coal mine is in the West, it's probably not all that productive. Eastern mines have been around for a while, and the easy coal has already been taken. What's the Appalachian dream here? Bring back the mines... with massive pay cuts? Coal towns need help, obviously, but trying to bring back coal jobs is a fantasy.
coal has good as fuck marketing though. that's why we talk about it.
also, arby's is a big turnaround success story. unlike peabody energy. or the coal industry as a whole.
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On November 28 2017 10:33 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 09:03 doomdonker wrote:On November 28 2017 08:48 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2017 08:43 doomdonker wrote:On November 28 2017 08:18 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2017 08:08 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them. I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics. In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families. I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. My problem with 'Rural Americans voted for Trump 'because the country left them behind' is that Trump in no way represents their interests. They fell for the same con they have fallen for for decades and after Trump disappointing them they will run off to the next conman who promises them everything they want to hear. I get that people don't want to accept the truth, yes the country failed them by not restructuring the economy decades ago away from failing industries, yes its shit, it sucks and there is no easy way forward. But going 'My dad worked in a coal mine, I want to work in a coal mine' , 'no one wants coal anymore' , 'well, make them use it' doesn't do anything. When offered a choice between a conman promising them the world and a shady politician with a plan she might not follow through on, the voted for the conman. Sorry that I don't feel more sympathy for believing in the impossible. The entire idea of "We're a coal family and we're proud" is a great example of how prone to tribalism humans are. How in the world do you actually positively identify with manual labor. god damn. These people are just so easily manipulated it drives me insane. Coal mining was a well enough paying job to pay for a nice house and develop a nice neighborhood. So people wanting the old life back is expected, it was a good job back then. The problem now is that coal mining is dangerous, unhealthy, increasingly automated and suffering from competition like natural gas and renewable resources. That's the reality of the situation. Unless the USA subsidies coal, they aren't getting their quality of living they once had back. And if we're subsiding (white) coal miners, that's basically welfare to prop up a shrinking industry that even China and India aren't too fond of because its dirty as heck. Subsidizing coal doesn't even work since, as you said, automation means that new and bigger mines won't even meet the demand for work and the work that is offered would require more and more education. That's actually the funny thing about Trump's campaign promise towards coal miners. If you stopped for a second and thought about why coal was dying, the economic and environmental reasons are dead obvious. But that would require some people over there to finally accept the hard truth instead of blaming China/regulations/left wing environmentalists/Democrats/RINOs/globalists/etc. You don't think coal miners have a legitimate grievance against pretty much all of those groups? All of them essentially worked to put coal miners out of business without any concern for what the coal miners would actually do after they succeeded. I'm obviously an unabashed advocate of both the free market and free trade but it doesn't take a genius to realize low-skilled coal miners can't easily transfer their skills and tend not to be the type to have both the foresight and requisite character traits to proactively learn a new skillset in preparation for the demise of the coal industry. If you're a 55 year old ex-coal miner without adequate retirement savings (like most Americans) in 2017, what do you even do? A mass retaining program starting 10-20 years ago for half of Trump's base probably would have easily paid for itself by now. If that had been available and these workers had turned it down, I'd have a lot less sympathy for them but, pragmatically speaking, I expect foresight and good planning to be a trait of the political class--not the working class--thus the much of the onus for the current mess falls on said political class. To be clear, I'm not saying it justifies Trumpism and total/utter mistrust of elites, but the elites really did fuck up as far as America's working class is concerned. And some of the sneering around here at coal miners is pretty gross. It's easy to say "lol learn a new profession" when you're a software engineer who has to learn new things for their job everyday and is mentally used to it, but when you're a union worker for 30 years where various career filters have been applied and you probably don't have personality traits that are particularly amenable for learning, the union structure provides no incentive to learn anything new so you haven't done it for 30 years, and you're 55 so your time to profit from your educational investment is 10 years (rather than 40 as for a student), the whole "learn a new profession" thing sounds a lot more daunting and a lot less worth it.
The policies put in place by Obama that limited coal production had a whole bunch of money for retraining and systems in place to help the transition. Trump ended those. The working class of America is really good at shooting itself in the foot because they keep electing Republicans. Because Republican keep telling them government is the one destroying their jobs and then turning around ending the services that would help people find new jobs. Much like immigration, the Republicans will never address this problem because then they couldn't get re-elected by railing against it.
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On November 28 2017 10:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 10:33 mozoku wrote:On November 28 2017 09:03 doomdonker wrote:On November 28 2017 08:48 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2017 08:43 doomdonker wrote:On November 28 2017 08:18 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2017 08:08 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:
[quote]
What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:
[quote]
I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics.
In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families.
I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. My problem with 'Rural Americans voted for Trump 'because the country left them behind' is that Trump in no way represents their interests. They fell for the same con they have fallen for for decades and after Trump disappointing them they will run off to the next conman who promises them everything they want to hear. I get that people don't want to accept the truth, yes the country failed them by not restructuring the economy decades ago away from failing industries, yes its shit, it sucks and there is no easy way forward. But going 'My dad worked in a coal mine, I want to work in a coal mine' , 'no one wants coal anymore' , 'well, make them use it' doesn't do anything. When offered a choice between a conman promising them the world and a shady politician with a plan she might not follow through on, the voted for the conman. Sorry that I don't feel more sympathy for believing in the impossible. The entire idea of "We're a coal family and we're proud" is a great example of how prone to tribalism humans are. How in the world do you actually positively identify with manual labor. god damn. These people are just so easily manipulated it drives me insane. Coal mining was a well enough paying job to pay for a nice house and develop a nice neighborhood. So people wanting the old life back is expected, it was a good job back then. The problem now is that coal mining is dangerous, unhealthy, increasingly automated and suffering from competition like natural gas and renewable resources. That's the reality of the situation. Unless the USA subsidies coal, they aren't getting their quality of living they once had back. And if we're subsiding (white) coal miners, that's basically welfare to prop up a shrinking industry that even China and India aren't too fond of because its dirty as heck. Subsidizing coal doesn't even work since, as you said, automation means that new and bigger mines won't even meet the demand for work and the work that is offered would require more and more education. That's actually the funny thing about Trump's campaign promise towards coal miners. If you stopped for a second and thought about why coal was dying, the economic and environmental reasons are dead obvious. But that would require some people over there to finally accept the hard truth instead of blaming China/regulations/left wing environmentalists/Democrats/RINOs/globalists/etc. You don't think coal miners have a legitimate grievance against pretty much all of those groups? All of them essentially worked to put coal miners out of business without any concern for what the coal miners would actually do after they succeeded. I'm obviously an unabashed advocate of both the free market and free trade but it doesn't take a genius to realize low-skilled coal miners can't easily transfer their skills and tend not to be the type to have both the foresight and requisite character traits to proactively learn a new skillset in preparation for the demise of the coal industry. If you're a 55 year old ex-coal miner without adequate retirement savings (like most Americans) in 2017, what do you even do? A mass retaining program starting 10-20 years ago for half of Trump's base probably would have easily paid for itself by now. If that had been available and these workers had turned it down, I'd have a lot less sympathy for them but, pragmatically speaking, I expect foresight and good planning to be a trait of the political class--not the working class--thus the much of the onus for the current mess falls on said political class. To be clear, I'm not saying it justifies Trumpism and total/utter mistrust of elites, but the elites really did fuck up as far as America's working class is concerned. And some of the sneering around here at coal miners is pretty gross. It's easy to say "lol learn a new profession" when you're a software engineer who has to learn new things for their job everyday and is mentally used to it, but when you're a union worker for 30 years where various career filters have been applied and you probably don't have personality traits that are particularly amenable for learning, the union structure provides no incentive to learn anything new so you haven't done it for 30 years, and you're 55 so your time to profit from your educational investment is 10 years (rather than 40 as for a student), the whole "learn a new profession" thing sounds a lot more daunting and a lot less worth it. The policies put in place by Obama that limited coal production had a whole bunch of money for retraining and systems in place to help the transition. Trump ended those. The working class of America is really good at shooting itself in the foot because they keep electing Republicans.
Also never forgetti the dude who decided to take a course on coal mining in the job retraining program instead of anything else. Only God knows why coal mining was an available course in the program.
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On November 28 2017 10:44 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 10:43 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 10:33 mozoku wrote:On November 28 2017 09:03 doomdonker wrote:On November 28 2017 08:48 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2017 08:43 doomdonker wrote:On November 28 2017 08:18 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2017 08:08 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:
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A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me.
The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:
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I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. My problem with 'Rural Americans voted for Trump 'because the country left them behind' is that Trump in no way represents their interests. They fell for the same con they have fallen for for decades and after Trump disappointing them they will run off to the next conman who promises them everything they want to hear. I get that people don't want to accept the truth, yes the country failed them by not restructuring the economy decades ago away from failing industries, yes its shit, it sucks and there is no easy way forward. But going 'My dad worked in a coal mine, I want to work in a coal mine' , 'no one wants coal anymore' , 'well, make them use it' doesn't do anything. When offered a choice between a conman promising them the world and a shady politician with a plan she might not follow through on, the voted for the conman. Sorry that I don't feel more sympathy for believing in the impossible. The entire idea of "We're a coal family and we're proud" is a great example of how prone to tribalism humans are. How in the world do you actually positively identify with manual labor. god damn. These people are just so easily manipulated it drives me insane. Coal mining was a well enough paying job to pay for a nice house and develop a nice neighborhood. So people wanting the old life back is expected, it was a good job back then. The problem now is that coal mining is dangerous, unhealthy, increasingly automated and suffering from competition like natural gas and renewable resources. That's the reality of the situation. Unless the USA subsidies coal, they aren't getting their quality of living they once had back. And if we're subsiding (white) coal miners, that's basically welfare to prop up a shrinking industry that even China and India aren't too fond of because its dirty as heck. Subsidizing coal doesn't even work since, as you said, automation means that new and bigger mines won't even meet the demand for work and the work that is offered would require more and more education. That's actually the funny thing about Trump's campaign promise towards coal miners. If you stopped for a second and thought about why coal was dying, the economic and environmental reasons are dead obvious. But that would require some people over there to finally accept the hard truth instead of blaming China/regulations/left wing environmentalists/Democrats/RINOs/globalists/etc. You don't think coal miners have a legitimate grievance against pretty much all of those groups? All of them essentially worked to put coal miners out of business without any concern for what the coal miners would actually do after they succeeded. I'm obviously an unabashed advocate of both the free market and free trade but it doesn't take a genius to realize low-skilled coal miners can't easily transfer their skills and tend not to be the type to have both the foresight and requisite character traits to proactively learn a new skillset in preparation for the demise of the coal industry. If you're a 55 year old ex-coal miner without adequate retirement savings (like most Americans) in 2017, what do you even do? A mass retaining program starting 10-20 years ago for half of Trump's base probably would have easily paid for itself by now. If that had been available and these workers had turned it down, I'd have a lot less sympathy for them but, pragmatically speaking, I expect foresight and good planning to be a trait of the political class--not the working class--thus the much of the onus for the current mess falls on said political class. To be clear, I'm not saying it justifies Trumpism and total/utter mistrust of elites, but the elites really did fuck up as far as America's working class is concerned. And some of the sneering around here at coal miners is pretty gross. It's easy to say "lol learn a new profession" when you're a software engineer who has to learn new things for their job everyday and is mentally used to it, but when you're a union worker for 30 years where various career filters have been applied and you probably don't have personality traits that are particularly amenable for learning, the union structure provides no incentive to learn anything new so you haven't done it for 30 years, and you're 55 so your time to profit from your educational investment is 10 years (rather than 40 as for a student), the whole "learn a new profession" thing sounds a lot more daunting and a lot less worth it. The policies put in place by Obama that limited coal production had a whole bunch of money for retraining and systems in place to help the transition. Trump ended those. The working class of America is really good at shooting itself in the foot because they keep electing Republicans. Also never forget the dude who decided to take a course on coal mining in the job retraining program instead of anything else. Why coal mining was a course selection is whack though.
That is peak rural America. Take federal money for job retraining, offer a course is in the dying industry. Then local politician that controls the federal dollars can keep his voter base that loves coal mining and the support of the coal mining industry.
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circlejerking aside about people not shifting from a way of life they and theirs have known for hundreds of years, there is something to be said about doing more than just job retraining and declaring "we did enough". people from mining families aren't suddenly going to understand the value of <insert white collar job here>. they need to know there will be jobs there, and there needs to be a case why said job is a good and attractive opportunity to working underground. microsoft isn't suddenly going to plant a few hundred jobs in rural appalachia either. they need to know that there will be a workforce there. a jobs retraining program is only a small component of a economic transformation one.
i'm 100% okay with my federal tax dollars going towards this sort of thing honestly. better than pure subsistence welfare.
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That is all fine and good, except the coal mining industry has a locked down an entire state with two senate seats, so the politically reality that state needs a lot of government help get away from mining.
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O'Keefe should be in jail. Attempting to fabricate a story to influence an election should be its own separate crime.
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o keefe is also case in point why you can't trust gotcha videos.
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On November 28 2017 10:43 Plansix wrote:
The policies put in place by Obama that limited coal production had a whole bunch of money for retraining and systems in place to help the transition. Trump ended those. The working class of America is really good at shooting itself in the foot because they keep electing Republicans. Because Republican keep telling them government is the one destroying their jobs and then turning around ending the services that would help people find new jobs. Much like immigration, the Republicans will never address this problem because then they couldn't get re-elected by railing against it.
It turns out it's really easy to con people into voting against their own interest by screaming "SOCIALISM!" and "HANDOUTS!" at any legitimate programs aimed at helping them.
It's quite frankly ridiculous that people try to frame this as "well both sides fucked them over so their grievances are justified." The coal industry did a really good job of not only selling the con, but making people believe that it was the other side's fault.
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On November 28 2017 10:35 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 07:01 Nebuchad wrote:On November 28 2017 06:45 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 06:10 Nebuchad wrote:I'm working on being less petty in the future but here's a 1h video about cultural marxism to counter that 40m video about cultural marxism + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fsbQP4lYUE That's an interview between university professor/administrator ... possibly lawyer ... and a TA. If you're not going to watch it, maybe don't label it before telling everybody through action that you're not going to watch it. I did watch a small portion of it. This is my counter to it. You watched a small portion of it and said it was about cultural marxism? Was the sound muted?
It's a video about attempting to prove that conservative voices are squashed on campuses because of cultural marxism, which fits under the category of cultural marxism videos, yeah. What is it you don't understand?
Look at the pinned comment by the poster of your video, Think Club (you have to put it in your name that you're a thinker, that way it becomes true): "I believe this Lindsay Shepherd rebuke was personal for Dr. Herdert (sic) Pimlott. If you look at his scholarly work Pimlott is just a typical Marxist professor who most likely sees Jordan Peterson as the antichrist."
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On November 28 2017 11:51 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 10:35 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 07:01 Nebuchad wrote:On November 28 2017 06:45 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 06:10 Nebuchad wrote:I'm working on being less petty in the future but here's a 1h video about cultural marxism to counter that 40m video about cultural marxism + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fsbQP4lYUE That's an interview between university professor/administrator ... possibly lawyer ... and a TA. If you're not going to watch it, maybe don't label it before telling everybody through action that you're not going to watch it. I did watch a small portion of it. This is my counter to it. You watched a small portion of it and said it was about cultural marxism? Was the sound muted? It's a video about attempting to prove that conservative voices are squashed on campuses because of cultural marxism, which fits under the category of cultural marxism videos, yeah. What is it you don't understand? Look at the pinned comment by the poster of your video, Think Club (you have to put it in your name that you're a thinker, that way it becomes true): "I believe this Lindsay Shepherd rebuke was personal for Dr. Herdert ( sic) Pimlott. If you look at his scholarly work Pimlott is just a typical Marxist professor who most likely sees Jordan Peterson as the antichrist."
You need to spend more time watching source material and not whining about the YouTube poster or comments. It was reported on in several news outlets and the professor has since apologized. You’re like a MAGA megafan that calls an Obama speech “socialism.” It makes my side look bad, therefore let’s call it whatever we like!
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EPT
