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On November 28 2017 08:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 08:18 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2017 08:08 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 23:40 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
Let me get this straight: You side with the person breaking personal relationships over politics and want to say the other side forced you to adopt such an idiotic stance?
I don’t care if you want to blame Trump, Nazis, or lizard people for the status quo, I just thought you had more moral agency than this. Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES. There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever. If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices. Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community. Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations. But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game. I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 02:46 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 02:39 Logo wrote:
[quote]
How dare you value your wife's well being over a friendship. You monster. I know. I’m such a terrible person for allowing that to happen. I should have convinced lies to those friends and said it wasn’t a huge deal, wouldn’t be a problem and their desire to overtly talk about “getting the government out of healthcare” was fine. Mind you, a couple fierce libertarian friends straight up changed their mind on healthcare after those discussions. Because those friends saw that removing the ACA and Mass health protections would hurt someone they know and made the leap that people were more important that politics. You might actually persuade them to your side. Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth. You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them. I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics. In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families. I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. My problem with 'Rural Americans voted for Trump 'because the country left them behind' is that Trump in no way represents their interests. They fell for the same con they have fallen for for decades and after Trump disappointing them they will run off to the next conman who promises them everything they want to hear. I get that people don't want to accept the truth, yes the country failed them by not restructuring the economy decades ago away from failing industries, yes its shit, it sucks and there is no easy way forward. But going 'My dad worked in a coal mine, I want to work in a coal mine' , 'no one wants coal anymore' , 'well, make them use it' doesn't do anything. When offered a choice between a conman promising them the world and a shady politician with a plan she might not follow through on, the voted for the conman. Sorry that I don't feel more sympathy for believing in the impossible. The entire idea of "We're a coal family and we're proud" is a great example of how prone to tribalism humans are. How in the world do you actually positively identify with manual labor. god damn. These people are just so easily manipulated it drives me insane. My brother is a mechanic and my father in law was an electrician and contractor. They were manual labor sorts of people. Humans generally take pride in the lives they build for themselves and that can be manipulated by things like the coal industry.
I don't think it is bad to take pride in manual labor. But to be like "How could I ever be an electrician when I come from a family of coal miners?" is fucking insane. You can tell that some of these people take the same perspective as farmers, where they feel like they are serving some lifeblood purpose of the country and that they are completely and totally irreplaceable. It's almost like they think of themselves as some sort of core component of the country. Sure, we'd be fucked without food and we need someone to mindlessly walk around picking berries. But that doesn't make the berry picker even remotely noteworthy. He's just a piece of meat making objects be in different places. Similarly, yeah, power and energy are helpful. But it's not like it is some specialized craft where you need 10s of years of experience. The coal industry has convinced their workers that they are some kinda heroes of the country.
On November 28 2017 08:27 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 08:18 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2017 08:08 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 23:40 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
Let me get this straight: You side with the person breaking personal relationships over politics and want to say the other side forced you to adopt such an idiotic stance?
I don’t care if you want to blame Trump, Nazis, or lizard people for the status quo, I just thought you had more moral agency than this. Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES. There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever. If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices. Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community. Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations. But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game. I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 02:46 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 02:39 Logo wrote:
[quote]
How dare you value your wife's well being over a friendship. You monster. I know. I’m such a terrible person for allowing that to happen. I should have convinced lies to those friends and said it wasn’t a huge deal, wouldn’t be a problem and their desire to overtly talk about “getting the government out of healthcare” was fine. Mind you, a couple fierce libertarian friends straight up changed their mind on healthcare after those discussions. Because those friends saw that removing the ACA and Mass health protections would hurt someone they know and made the leap that people were more important that politics. You might actually persuade them to your side. Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth. You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them. I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics. In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families. I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. My problem with 'Rural Americans voted for Trump 'because the country left them behind' is that Trump in no way represents their interests. They fell for the same con they have fallen for for decades and after Trump disappointing them they will run off to the next conman who promises them everything they want to hear. I get that people don't want to accept the truth, yes the country failed them by not restructuring the economy decades ago away from failing industries, yes its shit, it sucks and there is no easy way forward. But going 'My dad worked in a coal mine, I want to work in a coal mine' , 'no one wants coal anymore' , 'well, make them use it' doesn't do anything. When offered a choice between a conman promising them the world and a shady politician with a plan she might not follow through on, the voted for the conman. Sorry that I don't feel more sympathy for believing in the impossible. The entire idea of "We're a coal family and we're proud" is a great example of how prone to tribalism humans are. How in the world do you actually positively identify with manual labor. god damn. These people are just so easily manipulated it drives me insane. I can certainly understand the appeal of manual labor, in having tangible things you can touch to show for a days hard work.
I'm more so saying a coal miner shouldn't feel like he does something different from a berry picker. If someone takes pride in mining coal, they should also take that kind of pride in berry picking.
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there is something admirable or romantic about doing something with your hands and being able to touch and handle your work product and show it off though. maybe it's the way that people are wired. i love cooking, tinkering with electronics, gardening and home improvement stuff.
i sit at a desk and bang away at a computer all day and take conference calls. i rarely even print stuff out even. i guess it's not surprising we do tombstones and other paraphernalia to mark deals that we close so we can point to them as markers.
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On November 28 2017 08:27 ticklishmusic wrote:
there is something admirable or romantic about doing something with your hands and being able to touch and handle your work product and show it off though. maybe it's the way that people are wired. i love cooking, tinkering with electronics, gardening and home improvement stuff.
i sit at a desk and bang away at a computer all day and take conference calls. i rarely even print stuff out even. i guess it's not surprising we do tombstones and other paraphernalia to mark deals that we close so we can point to them as markers.
Romantic, yes, admirable, no.
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On November 28 2017 08:31 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 08:27 ticklishmusic wrote:
there is something admirable or romantic about doing something with your hands and being able to touch and handle your work product and show it off though. maybe it's the way that people are wired. i love cooking, tinkering with electronics, gardening and home improvement stuff.
i sit at a desk and bang away at a computer all day and take conference calls. i rarely even print stuff out even. i guess it's not surprising we do tombstones and other paraphernalia to mark deals that we close so we can point to them as markers. Romantic, yes, admirable, no.
Depends on who you are. I have a friend who 100% looks down on my coding job while loving life out of painting houses.
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Cooking is a profession that deserves admiration and respect. Fuck, I’ll respect a cleaning person that does a good job. Or a coal miner(which is a way harder most people believe and does require skills).
On November 28 2017 08:36 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 08:31 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2017 08:27 ticklishmusic wrote:
there is something admirable or romantic about doing something with your hands and being able to touch and handle your work product and show it off though. maybe it's the way that people are wired. i love cooking, tinkering with electronics, gardening and home improvement stuff.
i sit at a desk and bang away at a computer all day and take conference calls. i rarely even print stuff out even. i guess it's not surprising we do tombstones and other paraphernalia to mark deals that we close so we can point to them as markers. Romantic, yes, admirable, no. Depends on who you are. I have a friend who 100% looks down on my coding job while loving life out of painting houses.
I'm a paper pusher that just sits on his ass all day, per my brother. Clearly nothing we do is worth while and we should all just pack it in.
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On November 28 2017 08:02 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 07:39 zlefin wrote:On November 28 2017 07:37 Sermokala wrote:On November 28 2017 07:25 zlefin wrote:
anyone wanna discuss an issue of substance rather than the nonsense (and people countering said nonsense) that this thread has been today?
Only thing I can think of like that is my old note about reducing executive power via an amendment ot allow the creation of lesser legislative bodies to take over some of the regulatory work. That just seems like an easy way to creep into crazy levels of bureaucracy. The problem with creating non political entities is that their existence from their birth till their death is inherently political. how is it any more bureaucracy than currently exists? it seems to be the same amount of bureaucracy. also it doens't have to be truly apolitical, that's not the point. nor is it a demonstration that they can't and/or won't work (in fact they seem to work better than the other parts of the government in practice) do you have some other, better plan to address the underlying problem? Well you're talking about making new legislative bodies to over see regulatory work. These people have to be selected somehow probably by executive decree while being okay with congress somehow and then have everything they do be looked at over their shoulder by the courts. They need authority to make laws like obviously a legislative branch but gain their legitimacy from the executive branch while the justical system has to back up everything they do. I agree that the executive branch should have its powers over the day to day running of various departments in a larger embrace of the underlying federalist philosophy that the government is built on. Have the departments wholly run by the person picked by the executive but have their job only revocable then by congress or the supreme court. Some sort of hybrid of the way the supreme court is picked but not for life or so.
not to oversee regulatory work, to DO regulatory work. some of it; the job of making regulations is often very legislative in form.
and that does not in any demonstrate an increase in the amount of bureaucracy. also, you're making assumptions about how it will work,then fighting/arguing against those, rather than starting with trying to figure out how it will/should work.
your second paragraph, i'm not even sure what it's about as it seems entirely unrelated to my point.
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On November 28 2017 08:36 Plansix wrote:Cooking is a profession that deserves admiration and respect. Fuck, I’ll respect a cleaning person that does a good job. Or a coal miner(which is a way harder most people believe and does require skills). Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 08:36 IyMoon wrote:On November 28 2017 08:31 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2017 08:27 ticklishmusic wrote:
there is something admirable or romantic about doing something with your hands and being able to touch and handle your work product and show it off though. maybe it's the way that people are wired. i love cooking, tinkering with electronics, gardening and home improvement stuff.
i sit at a desk and bang away at a computer all day and take conference calls. i rarely even print stuff out even. i guess it's not surprising we do tombstones and other paraphernalia to mark deals that we close so we can point to them as markers. Romantic, yes, admirable, no. Depends on who you are. I have a friend who 100% looks down on my coding job while loving life out of painting houses. I'm a paper pusher that just sits on his ass all day, per my brother. Clearly nothing we do is worth while and we should all just pack it in.
My experience has been that the people who are lowest on the societal ladder of professional prestige are the ones who make it most clear high paying jobs suck.
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On November 28 2017 08:18 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 08:08 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 23:40 Danglars wrote:On November 27 2017 15:10 NewSunshine wrote:
[quote]
It's fine to preach healing and unity, but you're choosing the wrong person to blame. The blame lies with the person actively sowing the damage and the disunity. The blame lies with the person who launches a social media war against anyone and everyone who says things he disagrees with. The blame lies with the person who calls for brown people to be fired when they make a statement about racism, and conveniently ignores white people who do the same. The blame lies with the person who campaigned on a wall, to keep the rapists out of our country, that the rapists would pay for. The blame lies with the man who sides with a sex offender and pedophile, silencing women when it's convenient for him politically. The blame lies with the person who says he'll drain the swamp, then hires people who are even deeper in companies' pockets, threatening our free speech.
You're absolving the president of a lot of responsibility in what he has done when you think "the left" is to blame for everything. He's gotten where he is by sowing chaos and discord among Americans, inciting and encouraging hate crimes and marginalizing people who just want to be treated the same as you. He has a very loud mouth, and people like you listen to him. Consider that. Let me get this straight: You side with the person breaking personal relationships over politics and want to say the other side forced you to adopt such an idiotic stance? I don’t care if you want to blame Trump, Nazis, or lizard people for the status quo, I just thought you had more moral agency than this. Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES. There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever. If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices. Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community. Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations. But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game. I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 02:46 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 02:39 Logo wrote:On November 28 2017 02:36 Plansix wrote:
The problem is that you assume folks like myself are "value(ing) friendships so lightly." That isn't the case. How dare you value your wife's well being over a friendship. You monster. I know. I’m such a terrible person for allowing that to happen. I should have convinced lies to those friends and said it wasn’t a huge deal, wouldn’t be a problem and their desire to overtly talk about “getting the government out of healthcare” was fine. Mind you, a couple fierce libertarian friends straight up changed their mind on healthcare after those discussions. Because those friends saw that removing the ACA and Mass health protections would hurt someone they know and made the leap that people were more important that politics. You might actually persuade them to your side. Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth. You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them. I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics. In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families. I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. My problem with 'Rural Americans voted for Trump 'because the country left them behind' is that Trump in no way represents their interests. They fell for the same con they have fallen for for decades and after Trump disappointing them they will run off to the next conman who promises them everything they want to hear. I get that people don't want to accept the truth, yes the country failed them by not restructuring the economy decades ago away from failing industries, yes its shit, it sucks and there is no easy way forward. But going 'My dad worked in a coal mine, I want to work in a coal mine' , 'no one wants coal anymore' , 'well, make them use it' doesn't do anything. When offered a choice between a conman promising them the world and a shady politician with a plan she might not follow through on, the voted for the conman. Sorry that I don't feel more sympathy for believing in the impossible. The entire idea of "We're a coal family and we're proud" is a great example of how prone to tribalism humans are. How in the world do you actually positively identify with manual labor. god damn. These people are just so easily manipulated it drives me insane.
Coal mining was a well enough paying job to pay for a nice house and develop a nice neighborhood. So people wanting the old life back is expected, it was a good job back then. The problem now is that coal mining is dangerous, unhealthy, increasingly automated and suffering from competition like natural gas and renewable resources.
That's the reality of the situation. Unless the USA subsidies coal, they aren't getting their quality of living they once had back. And if we're subsiding (white) coal miners, that's basically welfare to prop up a shrinking industry that even China and India aren't too fond of because its dirty as heck.
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That isn't really how regulations work in the US. Most regulations are created by specific agencies that update them over time. They are given guidelines and jurisdiction by congress. The EPA creates a lot of regulations within the framework created by congress. There was a law suit during the Bush administration over if they could regulate CO2, where one party said that it was outside the framework created by congress.
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tbf, it's a lot harder to understand a high skill white collar job as a blue collar worker. i work for a tech company and i'm still not 100% sure why we pays some of the people as much as we do. :p
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On November 28 2017 08:44 Plansix wrote:
That isn't really how regulations work in the US. Most regulations are created by specific agencies that update them over time. They are given guidelines and jurisdiction by congress. The EPA creates a lot of regulations within the framework created by congress. There was a law suit during the Bush administration over if they could regulate CO2, where one party said that it was outside the framework created by congress.
i'm assuming you were responding to me,
but I don't see how this relates to my point(s) in any way.
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On November 28 2017 08:45 ticklishmusic wrote:
tbf, it's a lot harder to understand a high skill white collar job as a blue collar worker. i work for a tech company and i'm still not 100% sure why we pays some of the people as much as we do. :p
It is interesting because I didn't even really understand it while I was an undergrad. I always felt like I could totally do advanced engineering work after my 3rd year in college. Now that I am "actually high level", it is interesting realizing just how grossly unqualified I would have been even after getting my BS.
It is just another example of how the road only goes one way. A high level person can understand low level work, most of the time, but a low level person simply doesn't understand what the high level people do.
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On November 28 2017 08:43 doomdonker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 08:18 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2017 08:08 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:On November 27 2017 23:40 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
Let me get this straight: You side with the person breaking personal relationships over politics and want to say the other side forced you to adopt such an idiotic stance?
I don’t care if you want to blame Trump, Nazis, or lizard people for the status quo, I just thought you had more moral agency than this. Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES. There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever. If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices. Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community. Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations. But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game. I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 02:46 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 02:39 Logo wrote:
[quote]
How dare you value your wife's well being over a friendship. You monster. I know. I’m such a terrible person for allowing that to happen. I should have convinced lies to those friends and said it wasn’t a huge deal, wouldn’t be a problem and their desire to overtly talk about “getting the government out of healthcare” was fine. Mind you, a couple fierce libertarian friends straight up changed their mind on healthcare after those discussions. Because those friends saw that removing the ACA and Mass health protections would hurt someone they know and made the leap that people were more important that politics. You might actually persuade them to your side. Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth. You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them. I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics. In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families. I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. My problem with 'Rural Americans voted for Trump 'because the country left them behind' is that Trump in no way represents their interests. They fell for the same con they have fallen for for decades and after Trump disappointing them they will run off to the next conman who promises them everything they want to hear. I get that people don't want to accept the truth, yes the country failed them by not restructuring the economy decades ago away from failing industries, yes its shit, it sucks and there is no easy way forward. But going 'My dad worked in a coal mine, I want to work in a coal mine' , 'no one wants coal anymore' , 'well, make them use it' doesn't do anything. When offered a choice between a conman promising them the world and a shady politician with a plan she might not follow through on, the voted for the conman. Sorry that I don't feel more sympathy for believing in the impossible. The entire idea of "We're a coal family and we're proud" is a great example of how prone to tribalism humans are. How in the world do you actually positively identify with manual labor. god damn. These people are just so easily manipulated it drives me insane. Coal mining was a well enough paying job to pay for a nice house and develop a nice neighborhood. So people wanting the old life back is expected, it was a good job back then. The problem now is that coal mining is dangerous, unhealthy, increasingly automated and suffering from competition like natural gas and renewable resources. That's the reality of the situation. Unless the USA subsidies coal, they aren't getting their quality of living they once had back. And if we're subsiding (white) coal miners, that's basically welfare to prop up a shrinking industry that even China and India aren't too fond of because its dirty as heck.
Subsidizing coal doesn't even work since, as you said, automation means that new and bigger mines won't even meet the demand for work and the work that is offered would require more and more education.
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On November 28 2017 08:44 Plansix wrote:
That isn't really how regulations work in the US. Most regulations are created by specific agencies that update them over time. They are given guidelines and jurisdiction by congress. The EPA creates a lot of regulations within the framework created by congress. There was a law suit during the Bush administration over if they could regulate CO2, where one party said that it was outside the framework created by congress.
but then there was the 2015 decision about costs being taken into account, rip chevron
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Wow, that Danglars diatribe about how sad it is people wont be his friend was intense.
ProTip: Don't want people to treat you like a racist douche, don't act like a racist douche, support a racist douche, then complain when people don't want to hang out with a racist douche.
It actually kind of blows my mind people think there's nothing friendship ruining about supporting Trump. He's a terrible human being, beyond his policy, Trump is actually a trash person all around.
If you're friends with Cernovich, you aren't my friend. If you support Trump you aren't my friend. Let me be clear, this isn't a personal thing, this is a "regardless of how much I try to make you my friend, you can't be my friend and be friends with Cernovich, they are mutually exclusive" thing.
You are bad at choosing friends if your friend can also support the destruction of you and/or your family's life. And sure you can call them "friend" but you obviously wouldn't understand the intent of the term.
That doesn't mean I couldn't have a beer with Danglars, just means it would probably end with me punching him in the throat if he tried to talk politics. I would never be foolish enough to consider him a friend either.
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The economic and environmental argument for coal is a dead end; by now that is quite well acknowledged. I certainly can sympathize with those that want the old days when that was lucrative to come back but it won't happen and shouldn't happen. There's the old saying about how job retraining doesn't get you votes, but that's sort of the right solution here. No illusions about it being easy.
There is some merit in saving the rural communities, but that isn't in protecting dead industries. Ideally they would foster newer and more profitable ones.
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On November 28 2017 08:48 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 08:43 doomdonker wrote:On November 28 2017 08:18 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2017 08:08 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:28 NewSunshine wrote:
[quote]
Over siding with Donald Trump? The man who has done, and is doing, all the above I detailed, which you conveniently didn't argue? What the fuck kind of question is this? YES.
There's a reason I haven't had much energy for this lately. Your posting is as garbage as ever. If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices. Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community. Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations. But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game. I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:On November 28 2017 02:46 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I know. I’m such a terrible person for allowing that to happen. I should have convinced lies to those friends and said it wasn’t a huge deal, wouldn’t be a problem and their desire to overtly talk about “getting the government out of healthcare” was fine.
Mind you, a couple fierce libertarian friends straight up changed their mind on healthcare after those discussions. Because those friends saw that removing the ACA and Mass health protections would hurt someone they know and made the leap that people were more important that politics.
You might actually persuade them to your side. Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth. You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them. I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics. In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families. I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. My problem with 'Rural Americans voted for Trump 'because the country left them behind' is that Trump in no way represents their interests. They fell for the same con they have fallen for for decades and after Trump disappointing them they will run off to the next conman who promises them everything they want to hear. I get that people don't want to accept the truth, yes the country failed them by not restructuring the economy decades ago away from failing industries, yes its shit, it sucks and there is no easy way forward. But going 'My dad worked in a coal mine, I want to work in a coal mine' , 'no one wants coal anymore' , 'well, make them use it' doesn't do anything. When offered a choice between a conman promising them the world and a shady politician with a plan she might not follow through on, the voted for the conman. Sorry that I don't feel more sympathy for believing in the impossible. The entire idea of "We're a coal family and we're proud" is a great example of how prone to tribalism humans are. How in the world do you actually positively identify with manual labor. god damn. These people are just so easily manipulated it drives me insane. Coal mining was a well enough paying job to pay for a nice house and develop a nice neighborhood. So people wanting the old life back is expected, it was a good job back then. The problem now is that coal mining is dangerous, unhealthy, increasingly automated and suffering from competition like natural gas and renewable resources. That's the reality of the situation. Unless the USA subsidies coal, they aren't getting their quality of living they once had back. And if we're subsiding (white) coal miners, that's basically welfare to prop up a shrinking industry that even China and India aren't too fond of because its dirty as heck. Subsidizing coal doesn't even work since, as you said, automation means that new and bigger mines won't even meet the demand for work and the work that is offered would require more and more education.
That's actually the funny thing about Trump's campaign promise towards coal miners. If you stopped for a second and thought about why coal was dying, the economic and environmental reasons are dead obvious. But that would require some people over there to finally accept the hard truth instead of blaming China/regulations/left wing environmentalists/Democrats/RINOs/globalists/etc.
Trump kept moaning about regulations killing off coal mining during the election but its actually one of the best examples of the free market at work. Natural gas is cheap because of fracking (competition that is cheaper) and renewable resources are increasing in traction because it produces far less waste product at the place of operation (competition that is more desirable). Texas doesn't have some of the most renewable power generation in the country because they're green militant leftists, they have it because its clean and works very well when implemented appropriately.
Its actually no surprise that Trump hasn't done anything for coal miners and has basically stopped talking about them over the past month or two. Because there's nothing to do to save that industry.
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On November 28 2017 09:03 doomdonker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2017 08:48 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2017 08:43 doomdonker wrote:On November 28 2017 08:18 Mohdoo wrote:On November 28 2017 08:08 Gorsameth wrote:On November 28 2017 04:14 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:57 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:52 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:49 KwarK wrote:On November 28 2017 03:35 Shiragaku wrote:
[quote]
If it is justifiable to break friendships with Trump voters of what he stands for, then I find it perfectly reasonable to destroy my friendship with people who vote for liberal voices.
Hillary laughed when she talked about killing Qaddafi, I mean she literally destroyed a country HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW. In Palestine, when Hamas won over Fatah, she said that the elections should have been rigged, her track record regarding gay rights is just as shaky, if not worse than Trump, and she and her husband created the modern prison state that destroyed the African American community.
Obama also did similar, most damning thing being was his record high deportations.
But should people try to one up other progressives in moral purity? Hell no, it's a really stupid and dishonest game.
I find it disingenuous when people get so self-righteous about Trump, yes he is repulsive but there is definitely a double standard coming from many liberals and even leftists. You don't have to excuse one to condemn the other. You're forcing a false dichotomy. What I am trying to get at is you wouldn't refuse to be friends with a liberal because Hillary and Obama did certain things that are not progressive so why is it acceptable to do the same to a Trump supporter, assuming they are not calling you a cuck every other sentence. A Hillary supporter whose support of Hillary was predicated on her covering up of sexual abuse (as in that's why they liked her) would be morally unacceptable to me. A Hillary supporter who supported her in spite of that because there was no better alternative would be fine for me. The problem is that Trump supporters don't get to claim that there wasn't a less racist alternative to Trump. They can only say that the racism wasn't a significant factor to them. And when racism in the 21st century seems to be defined as not giving disrespect to certain people, is that the worst thing that someone can believe in? Whenever I hear people use that argument, it really sounds like they are crying wolf at this point. Racism really doesn't mean anything to most people anymore when it is constantly being applied. What people fail to see is that Trump's campaign was not built upon racism, it was in reaction to the people left behind with globalization and many of them live in a worst situation than they did years or decades ago and when they have to pay respect to groups of people or use phrases they have never even heard of years ago, how do you expect them to react? On November 28 2017 03:59 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:50 Shiragaku wrote:On November 28 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On November 28 2017 03:03 Danglars wrote:
[quote]
You might actually persuade them to your side.
Another good reason to keep friends for the reasons they are your friends in the first place. If you fail to convince, move on. It shows humanity and empathy, and not the political tribalism that is too rampant these days. I don't think you have to embrace it to effectively oppose Trump--it's way too scorched-earth. You continue to miss the point. These people are told about the problems we face due to the results of the election. We explain it to them like polite people. They respond that they do not believe our problems are real. So we are not friends with them. I don't know about you guys, bust most of my friendships with liberals ended was over shit like cultural appropriation, the legitimacy of gender fluidity, and my criticisms of campus identity politics. In California, lots of gay people said that they were scared for their lives because Trump is in office and statistically and anecdotally, that is bullshit. Lots of women with nice jobs and attending good universities continue to insist they are oppressed when they are in a pretty good position compared to most Americans. And so many PoCs on college campuses engage in outright bullying and use their identity to cynically silence people. When you look more into their background, its not uncommon to see that they came from good families. I can befriend people with many different political views and can still disagree with them, but with many urban progressives, I am always one comment from being socially ruined. I also hear that a lot of gays don’t want to move out of MA or RI because the rest of the country is so unfriendly to them. I know people who have come back to the area because the rest of the country treated them like this. I have had Muslim friends who straight up left this country because it treated them so poorly. You don’t seem that interested in believe these folks, so I would argue that you value your political views more than their friendships. I have grown up in rural America and there was definitely racism and homophobia. There were times when people refused to serve my mom because she was Asian and we had gay people who were bullied and eventually committed suicide. And the anti-Muslim sentiment was there, but on a personal level, most Muslims were integrated for the most part. But the Islamphobia is pretty bad and it is getting worse. However, with people like Jon Stewart and shows like Glee, that all changed so fast for the better. Rural America, although not San Francisco or New York is definitely way much friendly and livable than it used to be. When I moved to California, it was even better, especially for someone like me, but one thing that irks me is when I see people who have never experienced racism claiming oppression like some reward. I know what bigotry was like in action and there is nothing more infuriating when people in liberal bubbles LARP as a minority in their fictionalized view of suburban/rural America and use it to cynically promote their worldview. My problem with 'Rural Americans voted for Trump 'because the country left them behind' is that Trump in no way represents their interests. They fell for the same con they have fallen for for decades and after Trump disappointing them they will run off to the next conman who promises them everything they want to hear. I get that people don't want to accept the truth, yes the country failed them by not restructuring the economy decades ago away from failing industries, yes its shit, it sucks and there is no easy way forward. But going 'My dad worked in a coal mine, I want to work in a coal mine' , 'no one wants coal anymore' , 'well, make them use it' doesn't do anything. When offered a choice between a conman promising them the world and a shady politician with a plan she might not follow through on, the voted for the conman. Sorry that I don't feel more sympathy for believing in the impossible. The entire idea of "We're a coal family and we're proud" is a great example of how prone to tribalism humans are. How in the world do you actually positively identify with manual labor. god damn. These people are just so easily manipulated it drives me insane. Coal mining was a well enough paying job to pay for a nice house and develop a nice neighborhood. So people wanting the old life back is expected, it was a good job back then. The problem now is that coal mining is dangerous, unhealthy, increasingly automated and suffering from competition like natural gas and renewable resources. That's the reality of the situation. Unless the USA subsidies coal, they aren't getting their quality of living they once had back. And if we're subsiding (white) coal miners, that's basically welfare to prop up a shrinking industry that even China and India aren't too fond of because its dirty as heck. Subsidizing coal doesn't even work since, as you said, automation means that new and bigger mines won't even meet the demand for work and the work that is offered would require more and more education. That's actually the funny thing about Trump's campaign promise towards coal miners. If you stopped for a second and thought about why coal was dying, the economic and environmental reasons are dead obvious. But that would require some people over there to finally accept the hard truth instead of blaming China/regulations/left wing environmentalists/Democrats/RINOs/globalists/etc. Trump kept moaning about regulations killing off coal mining during the election but its actually one of the best examples of the free market at work. Natural gas is cheap because of fracking (competition that is cheaper) and renewable resources are increasing in traction because it produces far less waste product at the place of operation (competition that is more desirable). Texas doesn't have some of the most renewable power generation in the country because they're green militant leftists, they have it because its clean and works very well when implemented appropriately. Its actually no surprise that Trump hasn't done anything for coal miners and has basically stopped talking about them over the past month or two. Because there's nothing to do to save that industry.
As a bonus, they are also the most diehard of his voters. Read any of the 'still a Trump supporter' articles that come out on a monthly basis in NYT or WaPo and these former coal miners are all still Trumpkins. Trump can throw them kulturkampf nonsense once every few weeks and they will stay loyal as he guts the tax base that funds their white welfare (yes, disability in Appalachia is white welfare, and yes, disability payments will get hammered in the future if the Trump Tax Cuts go through). Just wait until Trump's deregulatory efforts and anti-lawsuit judges go to work at taking away the feeble protections these coal miners have. They will still blame whoever it is that Trump says is harming them.
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The late 90s were cool because we weren't in this endless war and our budgets were sort of in order.
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Why do we even discuss coal so much? More people work at freaking Arby's. Much of the job decline is from automation, and for reference, the EPA started in 1970.
![[image loading]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/US_Coal_Mining_Employment_1890-2014.png/1280px-US_Coal_Mining_Employment_1890-2014.png)
Also, unless your coal mine is in the West, it's probably not all that productive. Eastern mines have been around for a while, and the easy coal has already been taken. What's the Appalachian dream here? Bring back the mines... with massive pay cuts?
![[image loading]](https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https%3A%2F%2Fftalphaville-cdn.ft.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F03%2F29165406%2FScreen-Shot-2017-03-29-at-11.18.13-AM.png?source=Alphaville)
Coal towns need help, obviously, but trying to bring back coal jobs is a fantasy.
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EPT
