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those people look very similar from where i’m sitting.
additionally, you can say as much about any group of people. blm, antifa, leftists, rightists. they all have weak members. your scathing diatribe rings hollow when you start from that position.
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United States42009 Posts
On September 30 2017 01:44 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 01:37 KwarK wrote:On September 30 2017 01:32 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:29 KwarK wrote:On September 30 2017 01:22 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:00 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:Reading about Russia's efforts to influence conversations around BLM and Antifa'esque movements is fascinating. Browsing Twitter, it was clear that there was some enormous spike in extremist activism. Sure, a few of my typically dipshit liberal friends were ranting about patriarchy in all the ways they normally do, but 2016 was different. It was this previously fringe, militant perspective that took so much more of a stand. Reading about the fact that Russia did its best to spark that fire, then fan it and help it grow, makes total sense. I also take pleasure in being able to be this condescending regarding BLM. They were such dipshits that a foreign government was able to rile them up and make them even more angry. They were used because their views were divisive and extreme, but also because of how gullible and longing for connection these fringe bags of shit tend to be. People who subscribe to extremist beliefs typically feel like their power has been taken from them and that they are weak to create their own path. They cling on to extremist nonsense because definitive, all-or-nothing, "had enough already" types of thinking gives people resolve. By being unyielding, they start to feel like they are actually powerful or actually making a difference. Because they were weak, they got used. But also, fuck those people for being weak trash. They brought us all down with them because they were weak and shitty. Edit: This is what I'm referring to http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/28/media/blacktivist-russia-facebook-twitter/index.htmlIf you tell young, weak, misguided shitbags who are looking for an excuse for their misery, all the ways they can feel powerful, they are going to take that bait. Wait, you are calling BLM weak for believing the Russian misinformation efforts? The Russian goal is to drive division and your hot take is that it’s groups like BLM fault for buying into the division? Are you not just buying into the division by blaming everyone but the people who are lying? I am certainly being critical here. But what I am criticizing is the idea that a lot of these young, weak individuals were looking for meaning and a way to finally feel empowered. They saw radical, divisive, extreme perspectives being tweeted and retweeted. They see 20K retweets and, being pitiful individuals, felt like these perspectives must have some sort of truth or validity. They look at things like demanding reparations as a flat tax on white people and say "Ya know what, looking at how many people also feel this way, and seeing how weak I feel right now, they just might be right". THAT is what I am criticizing: The weakness of the individual. They should have realized this is extremist nonsense and moved on. I fault the individual for being shitty and being susceptible to this type of thinking. We all know how these types of things work. It is the same way Trump legitimized what I would call barely-not-white-supremacy. A ton of people now think his perspectives are justifiable and that they will eventually empower lower-class whites. In many ways, Russia is just riling up people the same way Trump did. My point is that the type of person who is vulnerable to thinking viewpoints are legitimate or ethical because of the appearance of widespread appeal, are shitty people and I am very upset with them. I hate that their weakness brings my country down. Honestly it sounds an awful lot like you're doing exactly what you're accusing them of, and with no more basis to it. You have preconceived notions about BLM and then an article shows up on the internet that appears to validate your beliefs and so you launch into this tirade, completely absent of facts. Read your own posts again as if they were written by another and ask yourself "where is this coming from?" Is there really a mass popular movement that is demanding a flat tax on white people? What evidence is there for the existence of that movement? How representative are the spokespeople of the beliefs of the people as a whole? Is their real size and influence proportionate to that portrayed in the media? What actual data do you have to respond to any of that. You read an article on the internet and it convinced you that a group is nothing but weak willed individuals who have been manipulated and exploited into feeling a sense of outrage and anger towards another group. And so you immediately posted your gut reaction, outrage and anger towards that group. I'm not talking about the movements as a whole. I am talking about the fringe parts of these groups that have been visibly empowered by this sort of thing. I would say that I generally sympathize and support "BLM". But it has its share of extremist bullshit and I have definitely noticed an increase in the fringe part of their movement in the past year. I am not making any claim to NOT being nasty, condescending and divisive. I fully embrace my inclination to verbally spit on these fringe groups. I'm not saying that you're not being nasty, condescending, and divisive (that felt odd to write, clarifying negatively?), I'm questioning whether you have engaged in sufficient questioning of your own response to that article to conclude that you are not yourself being manipulated in the same way you attack them for. In short, how can you distinguish between their illegitimate anger that was incited by articles placed there deliberately to manipulate them, and your own anger after reading about this in an article? Person A: Reads about made up shit, wrapped in extremist perspectives and beliefs. Begins to adopt these beliefs and spreads these beliefs. Person B: Reads an accurate report of efforts to influence shitty people with made up shit. Gets mad and talks a bunch of shit about people he sees as bringing the country down because of their own weakness and ignorance.
Sure, I absolutely get the difference between legitimate outrage and illegitimate outrage. I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't saying that all outrage is equally illegitimate and therefore you're just as bad as they are (which you have refuted). I am asking what evidence do you have that your outrage is legitimate.
What data do you have on the degree of manipulation of the people whose weak will you are outraged by?
And for that matter, what information do you know about the author of the article?
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On September 30 2017 01:48 brian wrote:
those people look very similar from where i’m sitting.
additionally, you can say as much about any group of people. blm, antifa, leftists, rightists. they all have weak members. your scathing diatribe rings hollow when you start from that position.
Person A is looking for any possible way to feel empowered. They exercise extremely poor critical thinking and skepticism as they read about ridiculous nonsense. Person A is no different than the guy who tried to shoot up a pizza shop after hearing Clinton was keeping kids in the basement. Being convinced by obvious lies and letting these obvious lies influence your core philosophies is the making of a very low tier individual.
On September 30 2017 01:50 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 01:44 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:37 KwarK wrote:On September 30 2017 01:32 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:29 KwarK wrote:On September 30 2017 01:22 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:00 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:Reading about Russia's efforts to influence conversations around BLM and Antifa'esque movements is fascinating. Browsing Twitter, it was clear that there was some enormous spike in extremist activism. Sure, a few of my typically dipshit liberal friends were ranting about patriarchy in all the ways they normally do, but 2016 was different. It was this previously fringe, militant perspective that took so much more of a stand. Reading about the fact that Russia did its best to spark that fire, then fan it and help it grow, makes total sense. I also take pleasure in being able to be this condescending regarding BLM. They were such dipshits that a foreign government was able to rile them up and make them even more angry. They were used because their views were divisive and extreme, but also because of how gullible and longing for connection these fringe bags of shit tend to be. People who subscribe to extremist beliefs typically feel like their power has been taken from them and that they are weak to create their own path. They cling on to extremist nonsense because definitive, all-or-nothing, "had enough already" types of thinking gives people resolve. By being unyielding, they start to feel like they are actually powerful or actually making a difference. Because they were weak, they got used. But also, fuck those people for being weak trash. They brought us all down with them because they were weak and shitty. Edit: This is what I'm referring to http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/28/media/blacktivist-russia-facebook-twitter/index.htmlIf you tell young, weak, misguided shitbags who are looking for an excuse for their misery, all the ways they can feel powerful, they are going to take that bait. Wait, you are calling BLM weak for believing the Russian misinformation efforts? The Russian goal is to drive division and your hot take is that it’s groups like BLM fault for buying into the division? Are you not just buying into the division by blaming everyone but the people who are lying? I am certainly being critical here. But what I am criticizing is the idea that a lot of these young, weak individuals were looking for meaning and a way to finally feel empowered. They saw radical, divisive, extreme perspectives being tweeted and retweeted. They see 20K retweets and, being pitiful individuals, felt like these perspectives must have some sort of truth or validity. They look at things like demanding reparations as a flat tax on white people and say "Ya know what, looking at how many people also feel this way, and seeing how weak I feel right now, they just might be right". THAT is what I am criticizing: The weakness of the individual. They should have realized this is extremist nonsense and moved on. I fault the individual for being shitty and being susceptible to this type of thinking. We all know how these types of things work. It is the same way Trump legitimized what I would call barely-not-white-supremacy. A ton of people now think his perspectives are justifiable and that they will eventually empower lower-class whites. In many ways, Russia is just riling up people the same way Trump did. My point is that the type of person who is vulnerable to thinking viewpoints are legitimate or ethical because of the appearance of widespread appeal, are shitty people and I am very upset with them. I hate that their weakness brings my country down. Honestly it sounds an awful lot like you're doing exactly what you're accusing them of, and with no more basis to it. You have preconceived notions about BLM and then an article shows up on the internet that appears to validate your beliefs and so you launch into this tirade, completely absent of facts. Read your own posts again as if they were written by another and ask yourself "where is this coming from?" Is there really a mass popular movement that is demanding a flat tax on white people? What evidence is there for the existence of that movement? How representative are the spokespeople of the beliefs of the people as a whole? Is their real size and influence proportionate to that portrayed in the media? What actual data do you have to respond to any of that. You read an article on the internet and it convinced you that a group is nothing but weak willed individuals who have been manipulated and exploited into feeling a sense of outrage and anger towards another group. And so you immediately posted your gut reaction, outrage and anger towards that group. I'm not talking about the movements as a whole. I am talking about the fringe parts of these groups that have been visibly empowered by this sort of thing. I would say that I generally sympathize and support "BLM". But it has its share of extremist bullshit and I have definitely noticed an increase in the fringe part of their movement in the past year. I am not making any claim to NOT being nasty, condescending and divisive. I fully embrace my inclination to verbally spit on these fringe groups. I'm not saying that you're not being nasty, condescending, and divisive (that felt odd to write, clarifying negatively?), I'm questioning whether you have engaged in sufficient questioning of your own response to that article to conclude that you are not yourself being manipulated in the same way you attack them for. In short, how can you distinguish between their illegitimate anger that was incited by articles placed there deliberately to manipulate them, and your own anger after reading about this in an article? Person A: Reads about made up shit, wrapped in extremist perspectives and beliefs. Begins to adopt these beliefs and spreads these beliefs. Person B: Reads an accurate report of efforts to influence shitty people with made up shit. Gets mad and talks a bunch of shit about people he sees as bringing the country down because of their own weakness and ignorance. Sure, I absolutely get the difference between legitimate outrage and illegitimate outrage. I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't saying that all outrage is equally illegitimate and therefore you're just as bad as they are (which you have refuted). I am asking what evidence do you have that your outrage is legitimate. What data do you have on the degree of manipulation of the people whose weak will you are outraged by? And for that matter, what information do you know about the author of the article?
If they influenced 6 people, I would be just as upset. The fact that I know at least 5 people who have gone down this hole makes it hit home for me. I have personally argued with these people and it always ends up "Yeah, I agree this probably isn't exactly true, but it doesn't change the fact that racism is still a huge problem". I've known these people a long time. They were totally decent at one point. At this point, white people are downright fucking evil, give or take 4 or 5 comedians. I don't need this to have influenced some number of people to turn an election or something like that.
I trust Anderson Cooper. I am just assuming that all these recent efforts regarding Russian social media evidence, in combination with Cooper talking about BLM/Antifa in particular, this is probably a real thing. Are you saying you don't think this is true?
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On September 30 2017 01:22 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 01:00 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:Reading about Russia's efforts to influence conversations around BLM and Antifa'esque movements is fascinating. Browsing Twitter, it was clear that there was some enormous spike in extremist activism. Sure, a few of my typically dipshit liberal friends were ranting about patriarchy in all the ways they normally do, but 2016 was different. It was this previously fringe, militant perspective that took so much more of a stand. Reading about the fact that Russia did its best to spark that fire, then fan it and help it grow, makes total sense. I also take pleasure in being able to be this condescending regarding BLM. They were such dipshits that a foreign government was able to rile them up and make them even more angry. They were used because their views were divisive and extreme, but also because of how gullible and longing for connection these fringe bags of shit tend to be. People who subscribe to extremist beliefs typically feel like their power has been taken from them and that they are weak to create their own path. They cling on to extremist nonsense because definitive, all-or-nothing, "had enough already" types of thinking gives people resolve. By being unyielding, they start to feel like they are actually powerful or actually making a difference. Because they were weak, they got used. But also, fuck those people for being weak trash. They brought us all down with them because they were weak and shitty. Edit: This is what I'm referring to http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/28/media/blacktivist-russia-facebook-twitter/index.htmlIf you tell young, weak, misguided shitbags who are looking for an excuse for their misery, all the ways they can feel powerful, they are going to take that bait. Wait, you are calling BLM weak for believing the Russian misinformation efforts? The Russian goal is to drive division and your hot take is that it’s groups like BLM fault for buying into the division? Are you not just buying into the division by blaming everyone but the people who are lying? I am certainly being critical here. But what I am criticizing is the idea that a lot of these young, weak individuals were looking for meaning and a way to finally feel empowered. They saw radical, divisive, extreme perspectives being tweeted and retweeted. They see 20K retweets and, being pitiful individuals, felt like these perspectives must have some sort of truth or validity. They look at things like demanding reparations as a flat tax on white people and say "Ya know what, looking at how many people also feel this way, and seeing how weak I feel right now, they just might be right". THAT is what I am criticizing: The weakness of the individual. They should have realized this is extremist nonsense and moved on. I fault the individual for being shitty and being susceptible to this type of thinking. We all know how these types of things work. It is the same way Trump legitimized what I would call barely-not-white-supremacy. A ton of people now think his perspectives are justifiable and that they will eventually empower lower-class whites. In many ways, Russia is just riling up people the same way Trump did. My point is that the type of person who is vulnerable to thinking viewpoints are legitimate or ethical because of the appearance of widespread appeal, are shitty people and I am very upset with them. I hate that their weakness brings my country down.
Mohdoo: I know you aren’t a bad dude, which is why I brought it up. A number of your posts have focused on “weakness” with an extremely negative tone. That people who are manipulated and tricked are almost worse that the bad actors that are trying to trick them. That their weakness is something we should shun and be ashamed of.
I’ve worked in some less than forgiving areas of law, including eviction and probation. I understand that frustration with people who do this stuff and that they should just get their life together. Personally, I think you should really push back against those feelings and views. It’s a bad way to view people and the world. Save the blame for people who are actively trying to lie and deceive, rather than lay it on the people who are deceived.
On September 30 2017 01:52 Mohdoo wrote:
Person A is looking for any possible way to feel empowered. They exercise extremely poor critical thinking and skepticism as they read about ridiculous nonsense. Person A is no different than the guy who tried to shoot up a pizza shop after hearing Clinton was keeping kids in the basement. Being convinced by obvious lies and letting these obvious lies influence your core philosophies is the making of a very low tier individual.
Honestly, isn’t this you? Right now? In this thread? Because you seem to be looking for ways to feel superior to those who were deceived.
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On September 30 2017 01:28 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 01:08 Plansix wrote:
I don’t understand Trump’s plan. You either rebuild the island or prepare for a bunch of American citizen refugees he can’t deny access to the country. Maybe his plan is to deny them access to the country? I wouldn't put it past him.
Except their US Citizens.
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United States42009 Posts
On September 30 2017 01:55 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 01:28 Gorsameth wrote:On September 30 2017 01:08 Plansix wrote:
I don’t understand Trump’s plan. You either rebuild the island or prepare for a bunch of American citizen refugees he can’t deny access to the country. Maybe his plan is to deny them access to the country? I wouldn't put it past him. Except their US Citizens.
He's previously denied legal permanent residents who the Supreme Court have ruled have the same legal protections as citizens.
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On September 30 2017 01:55 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 01:28 Gorsameth wrote:On September 30 2017 01:08 Plansix wrote:
I don’t understand Trump’s plan. You either rebuild the island or prepare for a bunch of American citizen refugees he can’t deny access to the country. Maybe his plan is to deny them access to the country? I wouldn't put it past him. Except their US Citizens.
Like people coming back from Mexico being denied/detained at the border, even though they're citizens and have the paperwork?
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On September 30 2017 01:55 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 01:28 Gorsameth wrote:On September 30 2017 01:08 Plansix wrote:
I don’t understand Trump’s plan. You either rebuild the island or prepare for a bunch of American citizen refugees he can’t deny access to the country. Maybe his plan is to deny them access to the country? I wouldn't put it past him. Except their US Citizens.
National Security is a hell of a drug. I would not put is past Miller and his ilk the idea.
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On September 30 2017 01:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 01:22 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:00 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:Reading about Russia's efforts to influence conversations around BLM and Antifa'esque movements is fascinating. Browsing Twitter, it was clear that there was some enormous spike in extremist activism. Sure, a few of my typically dipshit liberal friends were ranting about patriarchy in all the ways they normally do, but 2016 was different. It was this previously fringe, militant perspective that took so much more of a stand. Reading about the fact that Russia did its best to spark that fire, then fan it and help it grow, makes total sense. I also take pleasure in being able to be this condescending regarding BLM. They were such dipshits that a foreign government was able to rile them up and make them even more angry. They were used because their views were divisive and extreme, but also because of how gullible and longing for connection these fringe bags of shit tend to be. People who subscribe to extremist beliefs typically feel like their power has been taken from them and that they are weak to create their own path. They cling on to extremist nonsense because definitive, all-or-nothing, "had enough already" types of thinking gives people resolve. By being unyielding, they start to feel like they are actually powerful or actually making a difference. Because they were weak, they got used. But also, fuck those people for being weak trash. They brought us all down with them because they were weak and shitty. Edit: This is what I'm referring to http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/28/media/blacktivist-russia-facebook-twitter/index.htmlIf you tell young, weak, misguided shitbags who are looking for an excuse for their misery, all the ways they can feel powerful, they are going to take that bait. Wait, you are calling BLM weak for believing the Russian misinformation efforts? The Russian goal is to drive division and your hot take is that it’s groups like BLM fault for buying into the division? Are you not just buying into the division by blaming everyone but the people who are lying? I am certainly being critical here. But what I am criticizing is the idea that a lot of these young, weak individuals were looking for meaning and a way to finally feel empowered. They saw radical, divisive, extreme perspectives being tweeted and retweeted. They see 20K retweets and, being pitiful individuals, felt like these perspectives must have some sort of truth or validity. They look at things like demanding reparations as a flat tax on white people and say "Ya know what, looking at how many people also feel this way, and seeing how weak I feel right now, they just might be right". THAT is what I am criticizing: The weakness of the individual. They should have realized this is extremist nonsense and moved on. I fault the individual for being shitty and being susceptible to this type of thinking. We all know how these types of things work. It is the same way Trump legitimized what I would call barely-not-white-supremacy. A ton of people now think his perspectives are justifiable and that they will eventually empower lower-class whites. In many ways, Russia is just riling up people the same way Trump did. My point is that the type of person who is vulnerable to thinking viewpoints are legitimate or ethical because of the appearance of widespread appeal, are shitty people and I am very upset with them. I hate that their weakness brings my country down. Mohdoo: I know you aren’t a bad dude, which is why I brought it up. A number of your posts have focused on “weakness” with an extremely negative tone. That people who are manipulated and tricked are almost worse that the bad actors that are trying to trick them. That their weakness is something we should shun and be ashamed of. I’ve worked in some less than forgiving areas of law, including eviction and probation. I understand that frustration with people who do this stuff and that they should just get their life together. Personally, I think you should really push back against those feelings and views. It’s a bad way to view people and the world. Save the blame for people who are actively trying to lie and deceive, rather than lay it on the people who are deceived. Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 01:52 Mohdoo wrote:
Person A is looking for any possible way to feel empowered. They exercise extremely poor critical thinking and skepticism as they read about ridiculous nonsense. Person A is no different than the guy who tried to shoot up a pizza shop after hearing Clinton was keeping kids in the basement. Being convinced by obvious lies and letting these obvious lies influence your core philosophies is the making of a very low tier individual. Honestly, isn’t this you? Right now? In this thread? Because you seem to be looking for ways to feel superior to those who were deceived.
Some people are just nasty and condescending without feeling emo. This is more so the kinda thing where parents get more mad at their own kids than someone else's kids. Racial justice (BLM) and Antifa'esque struggles are very dear to me and I have always been on the more extreme side of things until the past few years. I consider them among the most important fights of our time. But these bags of trash hurt the cause. They lessen the impact of legitimate, intelligent, helpful people.
Edit: Somehow I missed your first quote. I completely agree that I have too easy a time demonizing people I see as weak and inadequate. Without getting too real here, I had a kinda weird childhood and I have spent some time professionally working on it. the Mohdoo you see today is the IMPROVED version, believe it or not. It is particularly difficult for me when it is related to causes or struggles or types of people I identify with.
In many ways, I see the goals of BLM/Antifa as so important that I freak out when I see people fucking it up.
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I think a generalization that people at the more extreme ends of the political spectrum (on both sides) were more likely to be exposed and ultimately influenced by foreign astroturfing and other propaganda is right. However, there's probably plenty of more moderate people who also ended up as suckers.
Obviously all those individuals bear some responsibility for their actions, and certainly they should have looked at various pieces of information more critically, instead of accepting it since it more or less aligned with their worldview. But the average person just doesn't do that - they should, but hey it just doesn't happen. People are pretty stupid, but I still hope they're capable of learning from their mistakes.
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On September 30 2017 02:00 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 01:55 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 01:22 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:00 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:Reading about Russia's efforts to influence conversations around BLM and Antifa'esque movements is fascinating. Browsing Twitter, it was clear that there was some enormous spike in extremist activism. Sure, a few of my typically dipshit liberal friends were ranting about patriarchy in all the ways they normally do, but 2016 was different. It was this previously fringe, militant perspective that took so much more of a stand. Reading about the fact that Russia did its best to spark that fire, then fan it and help it grow, makes total sense. I also take pleasure in being able to be this condescending regarding BLM. They were such dipshits that a foreign government was able to rile them up and make them even more angry. They were used because their views were divisive and extreme, but also because of how gullible and longing for connection these fringe bags of shit tend to be. People who subscribe to extremist beliefs typically feel like their power has been taken from them and that they are weak to create their own path. They cling on to extremist nonsense because definitive, all-or-nothing, "had enough already" types of thinking gives people resolve. By being unyielding, they start to feel like they are actually powerful or actually making a difference. Because they were weak, they got used. But also, fuck those people for being weak trash. They brought us all down with them because they were weak and shitty. Edit: This is what I'm referring to http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/28/media/blacktivist-russia-facebook-twitter/index.htmlIf you tell young, weak, misguided shitbags who are looking for an excuse for their misery, all the ways they can feel powerful, they are going to take that bait. Wait, you are calling BLM weak for believing the Russian misinformation efforts? The Russian goal is to drive division and your hot take is that it’s groups like BLM fault for buying into the division? Are you not just buying into the division by blaming everyone but the people who are lying? I am certainly being critical here. But what I am criticizing is the idea that a lot of these young, weak individuals were looking for meaning and a way to finally feel empowered. They saw radical, divisive, extreme perspectives being tweeted and retweeted. They see 20K retweets and, being pitiful individuals, felt like these perspectives must have some sort of truth or validity. They look at things like demanding reparations as a flat tax on white people and say "Ya know what, looking at how many people also feel this way, and seeing how weak I feel right now, they just might be right". THAT is what I am criticizing: The weakness of the individual. They should have realized this is extremist nonsense and moved on. I fault the individual for being shitty and being susceptible to this type of thinking. We all know how these types of things work. It is the same way Trump legitimized what I would call barely-not-white-supremacy. A ton of people now think his perspectives are justifiable and that they will eventually empower lower-class whites. In many ways, Russia is just riling up people the same way Trump did. My point is that the type of person who is vulnerable to thinking viewpoints are legitimate or ethical because of the appearance of widespread appeal, are shitty people and I am very upset with them. I hate that their weakness brings my country down. Mohdoo: I know you aren’t a bad dude, which is why I brought it up. A number of your posts have focused on “weakness” with an extremely negative tone. That people who are manipulated and tricked are almost worse that the bad actors that are trying to trick them. That their weakness is something we should shun and be ashamed of. I’ve worked in some less than forgiving areas of law, including eviction and probation. I understand that frustration with people who do this stuff and that they should just get their life together. Personally, I think you should really push back against those feelings and views. It’s a bad way to view people and the world. Save the blame for people who are actively trying to lie and deceive, rather than lay it on the people who are deceived. On September 30 2017 01:52 Mohdoo wrote:
Person A is looking for any possible way to feel empowered. They exercise extremely poor critical thinking and skepticism as they read about ridiculous nonsense. Person A is no different than the guy who tried to shoot up a pizza shop after hearing Clinton was keeping kids in the basement. Being convinced by obvious lies and letting these obvious lies influence your core philosophies is the making of a very low tier individual. Honestly, isn’t this you? Right now? In this thread? Because you seem to be looking for ways to feel superior to those who were deceived. Some people are just nasty and condescending without feeling emo. This is more so the kinda thing where parents get more mad at their own kids than someone else's kids. Racial justice (BLM) and Antifa'esque struggles are very dear to me and I have always been on the more extreme side of things until the past few years. I consider them among the most important fights of our time. But these bags of trash hurt the cause. They lessen the impact of legitimate, intelligent, helpful people.
Then get mad at twitter, facebook and the companies that provided these services that started driving the news, but didn’t check to make sure it was the real people driving the discussion. Or the broadcast media for being so quick to empower twitter as a source of news, without much critical review. There is a lot of blame to go around. Don’t go for the easy self gratification of saying “this wouldn’t have happened if you people were not so easily tricked.” It’s lazy.
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On September 30 2017 02:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 02:00 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:55 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 01:22 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:00 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:Reading about Russia's efforts to influence conversations around BLM and Antifa'esque movements is fascinating. Browsing Twitter, it was clear that there was some enormous spike in extremist activism. Sure, a few of my typically dipshit liberal friends were ranting about patriarchy in all the ways they normally do, but 2016 was different. It was this previously fringe, militant perspective that took so much more of a stand. Reading about the fact that Russia did its best to spark that fire, then fan it and help it grow, makes total sense. I also take pleasure in being able to be this condescending regarding BLM. They were such dipshits that a foreign government was able to rile them up and make them even more angry. They were used because their views were divisive and extreme, but also because of how gullible and longing for connection these fringe bags of shit tend to be. People who subscribe to extremist beliefs typically feel like their power has been taken from them and that they are weak to create their own path. They cling on to extremist nonsense because definitive, all-or-nothing, "had enough already" types of thinking gives people resolve. By being unyielding, they start to feel like they are actually powerful or actually making a difference. Because they were weak, they got used. But also, fuck those people for being weak trash. They brought us all down with them because they were weak and shitty. Edit: This is what I'm referring to http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/28/media/blacktivist-russia-facebook-twitter/index.htmlIf you tell young, weak, misguided shitbags who are looking for an excuse for their misery, all the ways they can feel powerful, they are going to take that bait. Wait, you are calling BLM weak for believing the Russian misinformation efforts? The Russian goal is to drive division and your hot take is that it’s groups like BLM fault for buying into the division? Are you not just buying into the division by blaming everyone but the people who are lying? I am certainly being critical here. But what I am criticizing is the idea that a lot of these young, weak individuals were looking for meaning and a way to finally feel empowered. They saw radical, divisive, extreme perspectives being tweeted and retweeted. They see 20K retweets and, being pitiful individuals, felt like these perspectives must have some sort of truth or validity. They look at things like demanding reparations as a flat tax on white people and say "Ya know what, looking at how many people also feel this way, and seeing how weak I feel right now, they just might be right". THAT is what I am criticizing: The weakness of the individual. They should have realized this is extremist nonsense and moved on. I fault the individual for being shitty and being susceptible to this type of thinking. We all know how these types of things work. It is the same way Trump legitimized what I would call barely-not-white-supremacy. A ton of people now think his perspectives are justifiable and that they will eventually empower lower-class whites. In many ways, Russia is just riling up people the same way Trump did. My point is that the type of person who is vulnerable to thinking viewpoints are legitimate or ethical because of the appearance of widespread appeal, are shitty people and I am very upset with them. I hate that their weakness brings my country down. Mohdoo: I know you aren’t a bad dude, which is why I brought it up. A number of your posts have focused on “weakness” with an extremely negative tone. That people who are manipulated and tricked are almost worse that the bad actors that are trying to trick them. That their weakness is something we should shun and be ashamed of. I’ve worked in some less than forgiving areas of law, including eviction and probation. I understand that frustration with people who do this stuff and that they should just get their life together. Personally, I think you should really push back against those feelings and views. It’s a bad way to view people and the world. Save the blame for people who are actively trying to lie and deceive, rather than lay it on the people who are deceived. On September 30 2017 01:52 Mohdoo wrote:
Person A is looking for any possible way to feel empowered. They exercise extremely poor critical thinking and skepticism as they read about ridiculous nonsense. Person A is no different than the guy who tried to shoot up a pizza shop after hearing Clinton was keeping kids in the basement. Being convinced by obvious lies and letting these obvious lies influence your core philosophies is the making of a very low tier individual. Honestly, isn’t this you? Right now? In this thread? Because you seem to be looking for ways to feel superior to those who were deceived. Some people are just nasty and condescending without feeling emo. This is more so the kinda thing where parents get more mad at their own kids than someone else's kids. Racial justice (BLM) and Antifa'esque struggles are very dear to me and I have always been on the more extreme side of things until the past few years. I consider them among the most important fights of our time. But these bags of trash hurt the cause. They lessen the impact of legitimate, intelligent, helpful people. Then get mad at twitter, facebook and the companies that provided these services that started driving the news, but didn’t check to make sure it was the real people driving the discussion. Or the broadcast media for being so quick to empower twitter as a source of news, without much critical review. There is a lot of blame to go around. Don’t go for the easy self gratification of saying “this wouldn’t have happened if you people were not so easily tricked.” It’s lazy.
Yeah, you're totally right. I address that in my edit above. I just want the left to be as effective as the right and seeing things like this make me flip tables.
On September 30 2017 02:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
I think a generalization that people at the more extreme ends of the political spectrum (on both sides) were more likely to be exposed and ultimately influenced by foreign astroturfing and other propaganda is right. However, there's probably plenty of more moderate people who also ended up as suckers.
Obviously all those individuals bear some responsibility for their actions, and certainly they should have looked at various pieces of information more critically, instead of accepting it since it more or less aligned with their worldview. But the average person just doesn't do that - they should, but hey it just doesn't happen. People are pretty stupid, but I still hope they're capable of learning from their mistakes.
*triggered*
I just struggle with this so much. I have spent so much time in person and on Facebook trying my best to bring these types into the fold and to essentially just "try harder" as critical thinkers. I could write for days about my views on political involvement and the moral obligation people have (as people who benefit from democracy) to think critically and put a lot of time and energy into political involvement.
Without getting too ranty: The world we were born into is a world we did nothing to deserve. I see there being a unbreakable obligation of all living participants of democracy to be the best possible voters they can be. Seeing people who should all totally agree on so many things turn on each other is kind of devastating to me knowing it is from inaccuracies and manipulation. I can't really deal with it.
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oops sorry double. lol friday at work and mohdoo posting every 5 minutes.
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On September 30 2017 02:14 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 02:06 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 02:00 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:55 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 01:22 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:00 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:Reading about Russia's efforts to influence conversations around BLM and Antifa'esque movements is fascinating. Browsing Twitter, it was clear that there was some enormous spike in extremist activism. Sure, a few of my typically dipshit liberal friends were ranting about patriarchy in all the ways they normally do, but 2016 was different. It was this previously fringe, militant perspective that took so much more of a stand. Reading about the fact that Russia did its best to spark that fire, then fan it and help it grow, makes total sense. I also take pleasure in being able to be this condescending regarding BLM. They were such dipshits that a foreign government was able to rile them up and make them even more angry. They were used because their views were divisive and extreme, but also because of how gullible and longing for connection these fringe bags of shit tend to be. People who subscribe to extremist beliefs typically feel like their power has been taken from them and that they are weak to create their own path. They cling on to extremist nonsense because definitive, all-or-nothing, "had enough already" types of thinking gives people resolve. By being unyielding, they start to feel like they are actually powerful or actually making a difference. Because they were weak, they got used. But also, fuck those people for being weak trash. They brought us all down with them because they were weak and shitty. Edit: This is what I'm referring to http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/28/media/blacktivist-russia-facebook-twitter/index.htmlIf you tell young, weak, misguided shitbags who are looking for an excuse for their misery, all the ways they can feel powerful, they are going to take that bait. Wait, you are calling BLM weak for believing the Russian misinformation efforts? The Russian goal is to drive division and your hot take is that it’s groups like BLM fault for buying into the division? Are you not just buying into the division by blaming everyone but the people who are lying? I am certainly being critical here. But what I am criticizing is the idea that a lot of these young, weak individuals were looking for meaning and a way to finally feel empowered. They saw radical, divisive, extreme perspectives being tweeted and retweeted. They see 20K retweets and, being pitiful individuals, felt like these perspectives must have some sort of truth or validity. They look at things like demanding reparations as a flat tax on white people and say "Ya know what, looking at how many people also feel this way, and seeing how weak I feel right now, they just might be right". THAT is what I am criticizing: The weakness of the individual. They should have realized this is extremist nonsense and moved on. I fault the individual for being shitty and being susceptible to this type of thinking. We all know how these types of things work. It is the same way Trump legitimized what I would call barely-not-white-supremacy. A ton of people now think his perspectives are justifiable and that they will eventually empower lower-class whites. In many ways, Russia is just riling up people the same way Trump did. My point is that the type of person who is vulnerable to thinking viewpoints are legitimate or ethical because of the appearance of widespread appeal, are shitty people and I am very upset with them. I hate that their weakness brings my country down. Mohdoo: I know you aren’t a bad dude, which is why I brought it up. A number of your posts have focused on “weakness” with an extremely negative tone. That people who are manipulated and tricked are almost worse that the bad actors that are trying to trick them. That their weakness is something we should shun and be ashamed of. I’ve worked in some less than forgiving areas of law, including eviction and probation. I understand that frustration with people who do this stuff and that they should just get their life together. Personally, I think you should really push back against those feelings and views. It’s a bad way to view people and the world. Save the blame for people who are actively trying to lie and deceive, rather than lay it on the people who are deceived. On September 30 2017 01:52 Mohdoo wrote:
Person A is looking for any possible way to feel empowered. They exercise extremely poor critical thinking and skepticism as they read about ridiculous nonsense. Person A is no different than the guy who tried to shoot up a pizza shop after hearing Clinton was keeping kids in the basement. Being convinced by obvious lies and letting these obvious lies influence your core philosophies is the making of a very low tier individual. Honestly, isn’t this you? Right now? In this thread? Because you seem to be looking for ways to feel superior to those who were deceived. Some people are just nasty and condescending without feeling emo. This is more so the kinda thing where parents get more mad at their own kids than someone else's kids. Racial justice (BLM) and Antifa'esque struggles are very dear to me and I have always been on the more extreme side of things until the past few years. I consider them among the most important fights of our time. But these bags of trash hurt the cause. They lessen the impact of legitimate, intelligent, helpful people. Then get mad at twitter, facebook and the companies that provided these services that started driving the news, but didn’t check to make sure it was the real people driving the discussion. Or the broadcast media for being so quick to empower twitter as a source of news, without much critical review. There is a lot of blame to go around. Don’t go for the easy self gratification of saying “this wouldn’t have happened if you people were not so easily tricked.” It’s lazy. Yeah, you're totally right. I address that in my edit above. I just want the left to be as effective as the right and seeing things like this make me flip tables.
I know so many people who buy into the worst parts of liberal media and I tell them to just get off facebook and twitter for politics. But I do it in person to people I know.
My anger is for these tech companies that have been happy to rake in billions, but clearly have no idea who using their service for what. Especially twitter, who has been hearing these same complains since 2014 and has done nothing. And congress, who should have seen all this shit coming. People have been reporting on Russian troll farms for years.
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On September 30 2017 02:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 02:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 02:06 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 02:00 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:55 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 01:22 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:00 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:Reading about Russia's efforts to influence conversations around BLM and Antifa'esque movements is fascinating. Browsing Twitter, it was clear that there was some enormous spike in extremist activism. Sure, a few of my typically dipshit liberal friends were ranting about patriarchy in all the ways they normally do, but 2016 was different. It was this previously fringe, militant perspective that took so much more of a stand. Reading about the fact that Russia did its best to spark that fire, then fan it and help it grow, makes total sense. I also take pleasure in being able to be this condescending regarding BLM. They were such dipshits that a foreign government was able to rile them up and make them even more angry. They were used because their views were divisive and extreme, but also because of how gullible and longing for connection these fringe bags of shit tend to be. People who subscribe to extremist beliefs typically feel like their power has been taken from them and that they are weak to create their own path. They cling on to extremist nonsense because definitive, all-or-nothing, "had enough already" types of thinking gives people resolve. By being unyielding, they start to feel like they are actually powerful or actually making a difference. Because they were weak, they got used. But also, fuck those people for being weak trash. They brought us all down with them because they were weak and shitty. Edit: This is what I'm referring to http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/28/media/blacktivist-russia-facebook-twitter/index.htmlIf you tell young, weak, misguided shitbags who are looking for an excuse for their misery, all the ways they can feel powerful, they are going to take that bait. Wait, you are calling BLM weak for believing the Russian misinformation efforts? The Russian goal is to drive division and your hot take is that it’s groups like BLM fault for buying into the division? Are you not just buying into the division by blaming everyone but the people who are lying? I am certainly being critical here. But what I am criticizing is the idea that a lot of these young, weak individuals were looking for meaning and a way to finally feel empowered. They saw radical, divisive, extreme perspectives being tweeted and retweeted. They see 20K retweets and, being pitiful individuals, felt like these perspectives must have some sort of truth or validity. They look at things like demanding reparations as a flat tax on white people and say "Ya know what, looking at how many people also feel this way, and seeing how weak I feel right now, they just might be right". THAT is what I am criticizing: The weakness of the individual. They should have realized this is extremist nonsense and moved on. I fault the individual for being shitty and being susceptible to this type of thinking. We all know how these types of things work. It is the same way Trump legitimized what I would call barely-not-white-supremacy. A ton of people now think his perspectives are justifiable and that they will eventually empower lower-class whites. In many ways, Russia is just riling up people the same way Trump did. My point is that the type of person who is vulnerable to thinking viewpoints are legitimate or ethical because of the appearance of widespread appeal, are shitty people and I am very upset with them. I hate that their weakness brings my country down. Mohdoo: I know you aren’t a bad dude, which is why I brought it up. A number of your posts have focused on “weakness” with an extremely negative tone. That people who are manipulated and tricked are almost worse that the bad actors that are trying to trick them. That their weakness is something we should shun and be ashamed of. I’ve worked in some less than forgiving areas of law, including eviction and probation. I understand that frustration with people who do this stuff and that they should just get their life together. Personally, I think you should really push back against those feelings and views. It’s a bad way to view people and the world. Save the blame for people who are actively trying to lie and deceive, rather than lay it on the people who are deceived. On September 30 2017 01:52 Mohdoo wrote:
Person A is looking for any possible way to feel empowered. They exercise extremely poor critical thinking and skepticism as they read about ridiculous nonsense. Person A is no different than the guy who tried to shoot up a pizza shop after hearing Clinton was keeping kids in the basement. Being convinced by obvious lies and letting these obvious lies influence your core philosophies is the making of a very low tier individual. Honestly, isn’t this you? Right now? In this thread? Because you seem to be looking for ways to feel superior to those who were deceived. Some people are just nasty and condescending without feeling emo. This is more so the kinda thing where parents get more mad at their own kids than someone else's kids. Racial justice (BLM) and Antifa'esque struggles are very dear to me and I have always been on the more extreme side of things until the past few years. I consider them among the most important fights of our time. But these bags of trash hurt the cause. They lessen the impact of legitimate, intelligent, helpful people. Then get mad at twitter, facebook and the companies that provided these services that started driving the news, but didn’t check to make sure it was the real people driving the discussion. Or the broadcast media for being so quick to empower twitter as a source of news, without much critical review. There is a lot of blame to go around. Don’t go for the easy self gratification of saying “this wouldn’t have happened if you people were not so easily tricked.” It’s lazy. Yeah, you're totally right. I address that in my edit above. I just want the left to be as effective as the right and seeing things like this make me flip tables. I know so many people who buy into the worst parts of liberal media and I tell them to just get off facebook and twitter for politics. But I do it in person to people I know. My anger is for these tech companies that have been happy to rake in billions, but clearly have no idea who using their service for what. Especially twitter, who has been hearing these same complains since 2014 and has done nothing. And congress, who should have seen all this shit coming. People have been reporting on Russian troll farms for years.
Your position is definitely the more ethical and correct one to take. I just get so sad seeing "one of my own" turning against the pack. In Twitter/FB's defense, I think we are still learning about what I consider somewhat of a "next level of consciousness" that is being created by the internet and interconnectedness. This has all moved so fast that I really can imagine FB/Twitter assuming this stuff would not be nearly as effective or powerful. How they handle this moving forward will dictate how I view them. Not looking great so far.
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On September 30 2017 02:25 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 02:20 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 02:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 02:06 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 02:00 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:55 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 01:22 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:00 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:Reading about Russia's efforts to influence conversations around BLM and Antifa'esque movements is fascinating. Browsing Twitter, it was clear that there was some enormous spike in extremist activism. Sure, a few of my typically dipshit liberal friends were ranting about patriarchy in all the ways they normally do, but 2016 was different. It was this previously fringe, militant perspective that took so much more of a stand. Reading about the fact that Russia did its best to spark that fire, then fan it and help it grow, makes total sense. I also take pleasure in being able to be this condescending regarding BLM. They were such dipshits that a foreign government was able to rile them up and make them even more angry. They were used because their views were divisive and extreme, but also because of how gullible and longing for connection these fringe bags of shit tend to be. People who subscribe to extremist beliefs typically feel like their power has been taken from them and that they are weak to create their own path. They cling on to extremist nonsense because definitive, all-or-nothing, "had enough already" types of thinking gives people resolve. By being unyielding, they start to feel like they are actually powerful or actually making a difference. Because they were weak, they got used. But also, fuck those people for being weak trash. They brought us all down with them because they were weak and shitty. Edit: This is what I'm referring to http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/28/media/blacktivist-russia-facebook-twitter/index.htmlIf you tell young, weak, misguided shitbags who are looking for an excuse for their misery, all the ways they can feel powerful, they are going to take that bait. Wait, you are calling BLM weak for believing the Russian misinformation efforts? The Russian goal is to drive division and your hot take is that it’s groups like BLM fault for buying into the division? Are you not just buying into the division by blaming everyone but the people who are lying? I am certainly being critical here. But what I am criticizing is the idea that a lot of these young, weak individuals were looking for meaning and a way to finally feel empowered. They saw radical, divisive, extreme perspectives being tweeted and retweeted. They see 20K retweets and, being pitiful individuals, felt like these perspectives must have some sort of truth or validity. They look at things like demanding reparations as a flat tax on white people and say "Ya know what, looking at how many people also feel this way, and seeing how weak I feel right now, they just might be right". THAT is what I am criticizing: The weakness of the individual. They should have realized this is extremist nonsense and moved on. I fault the individual for being shitty and being susceptible to this type of thinking. We all know how these types of things work. It is the same way Trump legitimized what I would call barely-not-white-supremacy. A ton of people now think his perspectives are justifiable and that they will eventually empower lower-class whites. In many ways, Russia is just riling up people the same way Trump did. My point is that the type of person who is vulnerable to thinking viewpoints are legitimate or ethical because of the appearance of widespread appeal, are shitty people and I am very upset with them. I hate that their weakness brings my country down. Mohdoo: I know you aren’t a bad dude, which is why I brought it up. A number of your posts have focused on “weakness” with an extremely negative tone. That people who are manipulated and tricked are almost worse that the bad actors that are trying to trick them. That their weakness is something we should shun and be ashamed of. I’ve worked in some less than forgiving areas of law, including eviction and probation. I understand that frustration with people who do this stuff and that they should just get their life together. Personally, I think you should really push back against those feelings and views. It’s a bad way to view people and the world. Save the blame for people who are actively trying to lie and deceive, rather than lay it on the people who are deceived. On September 30 2017 01:52 Mohdoo wrote:
Person A is looking for any possible way to feel empowered. They exercise extremely poor critical thinking and skepticism as they read about ridiculous nonsense. Person A is no different than the guy who tried to shoot up a pizza shop after hearing Clinton was keeping kids in the basement. Being convinced by obvious lies and letting these obvious lies influence your core philosophies is the making of a very low tier individual. Honestly, isn’t this you? Right now? In this thread? Because you seem to be looking for ways to feel superior to those who were deceived. Some people are just nasty and condescending without feeling emo. This is more so the kinda thing where parents get more mad at their own kids than someone else's kids. Racial justice (BLM) and Antifa'esque struggles are very dear to me and I have always been on the more extreme side of things until the past few years. I consider them among the most important fights of our time. But these bags of trash hurt the cause. They lessen the impact of legitimate, intelligent, helpful people. Then get mad at twitter, facebook and the companies that provided these services that started driving the news, but didn’t check to make sure it was the real people driving the discussion. Or the broadcast media for being so quick to empower twitter as a source of news, without much critical review. There is a lot of blame to go around. Don’t go for the easy self gratification of saying “this wouldn’t have happened if you people were not so easily tricked.” It’s lazy. Yeah, you're totally right. I address that in my edit above. I just want the left to be as effective as the right and seeing things like this make me flip tables. I know so many people who buy into the worst parts of liberal media and I tell them to just get off facebook and twitter for politics. But I do it in person to people I know. My anger is for these tech companies that have been happy to rake in billions, but clearly have no idea who using their service for what. Especially twitter, who has been hearing these same complains since 2014 and has done nothing. And congress, who should have seen all this shit coming. People have been reporting on Russian troll farms for years. Your position is definitely the more ethical and correct one to take. I just get so sad seeing "one of my own" turning against the pack. In Twitter/FB's defense, I think we are still learning about what I consider somewhat of a "next level of consciousness" that is being created by the internet and interconnectedness. This has all moved so fast that I really can imagine FB/Twitter assuming this stuff would not be nearly as effective or powerful. How they handle this moving forward will dictate how I view them. Not looking great so far.
what exactly would oyu like them to do?
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On September 30 2017 02:14 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 02:06 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 02:00 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:55 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 01:22 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:00 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:Reading about Russia's efforts to influence conversations around BLM and Antifa'esque movements is fascinating. Browsing Twitter, it was clear that there was some enormous spike in extremist activism. Sure, a few of my typically dipshit liberal friends were ranting about patriarchy in all the ways they normally do, but 2016 was different. It was this previously fringe, militant perspective that took so much more of a stand. Reading about the fact that Russia did its best to spark that fire, then fan it and help it grow, makes total sense. I also take pleasure in being able to be this condescending regarding BLM. They were such dipshits that a foreign government was able to rile them up and make them even more angry. They were used because their views were divisive and extreme, but also because of how gullible and longing for connection these fringe bags of shit tend to be. People who subscribe to extremist beliefs typically feel like their power has been taken from them and that they are weak to create their own path. They cling on to extremist nonsense because definitive, all-or-nothing, "had enough already" types of thinking gives people resolve. By being unyielding, they start to feel like they are actually powerful or actually making a difference. Because they were weak, they got used. But also, fuck those people for being weak trash. They brought us all down with them because they were weak and shitty. Edit: This is what I'm referring to http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/28/media/blacktivist-russia-facebook-twitter/index.htmlIf you tell young, weak, misguided shitbags who are looking for an excuse for their misery, all the ways they can feel powerful, they are going to take that bait. Wait, you are calling BLM weak for believing the Russian misinformation efforts? The Russian goal is to drive division and your hot take is that it’s groups like BLM fault for buying into the division? Are you not just buying into the division by blaming everyone but the people who are lying? I am certainly being critical here. But what I am criticizing is the idea that a lot of these young, weak individuals were looking for meaning and a way to finally feel empowered. They saw radical, divisive, extreme perspectives being tweeted and retweeted. They see 20K retweets and, being pitiful individuals, felt like these perspectives must have some sort of truth or validity. They look at things like demanding reparations as a flat tax on white people and say "Ya know what, looking at how many people also feel this way, and seeing how weak I feel right now, they just might be right". THAT is what I am criticizing: The weakness of the individual. They should have realized this is extremist nonsense and moved on. I fault the individual for being shitty and being susceptible to this type of thinking. We all know how these types of things work. It is the same way Trump legitimized what I would call barely-not-white-supremacy. A ton of people now think his perspectives are justifiable and that they will eventually empower lower-class whites. In many ways, Russia is just riling up people the same way Trump did. My point is that the type of person who is vulnerable to thinking viewpoints are legitimate or ethical because of the appearance of widespread appeal, are shitty people and I am very upset with them. I hate that their weakness brings my country down. Mohdoo: I know you aren’t a bad dude, which is why I brought it up. A number of your posts have focused on “weakness” with an extremely negative tone. That people who are manipulated and tricked are almost worse that the bad actors that are trying to trick them. That their weakness is something we should shun and be ashamed of. I’ve worked in some less than forgiving areas of law, including eviction and probation. I understand that frustration with people who do this stuff and that they should just get their life together. Personally, I think you should really push back against those feelings and views. It’s a bad way to view people and the world. Save the blame for people who are actively trying to lie and deceive, rather than lay it on the people who are deceived. On September 30 2017 01:52 Mohdoo wrote:
Person A is looking for any possible way to feel empowered. They exercise extremely poor critical thinking and skepticism as they read about ridiculous nonsense. Person A is no different than the guy who tried to shoot up a pizza shop after hearing Clinton was keeping kids in the basement. Being convinced by obvious lies and letting these obvious lies influence your core philosophies is the making of a very low tier individual. Honestly, isn’t this you? Right now? In this thread? Because you seem to be looking for ways to feel superior to those who were deceived. Some people are just nasty and condescending without feeling emo. This is more so the kinda thing where parents get more mad at their own kids than someone else's kids. Racial justice (BLM) and Antifa'esque struggles are very dear to me and I have always been on the more extreme side of things until the past few years. I consider them among the most important fights of our time. But these bags of trash hurt the cause. They lessen the impact of legitimate, intelligent, helpful people. Then get mad at twitter, facebook and the companies that provided these services that started driving the news, but didn’t check to make sure it was the real people driving the discussion. Or the broadcast media for being so quick to empower twitter as a source of news, without much critical review. There is a lot of blame to go around. Don’t go for the easy self gratification of saying “this wouldn’t have happened if you people were not so easily tricked.” It’s lazy. Yeah, you're totally right. I address that in my edit above. I just want the left to be as effective as the right and seeing things like this make me flip tables. Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 02:03 ticklishmusic wrote:
I think a generalization that people at the more extreme ends of the political spectrum (on both sides) were more likely to be exposed and ultimately influenced by foreign astroturfing and other propaganda is right. However, there's probably plenty of more moderate people who also ended up as suckers.
Obviously all those individuals bear some responsibility for their actions, and certainly they should have looked at various pieces of information more critically, instead of accepting it since it more or less aligned with their worldview. But the average person just doesn't do that - they should, but hey it just doesn't happen. People are pretty stupid, but I still hope they're capable of learning from their mistakes. *triggered* I just struggle with this so much. I have spent so much time in person and on Facebook trying my best to bring these types into the fold and to essentially just "try harder" at people critical thinkers. I could write for days about my views on political involvement and the moral obligation people have (as people who benefit from democracy) to think critically and put a lot of time and energy into political involvement. Without getting too ranty: The world we were born into is a world we did nothing to deserve. I see there being a unbreakable obligation of all living participants of democracy to be the best possible voters they can be. Seeing people who should all totally agree on so many things turn on each other is kind of devastating to me knowing it is from inaccuracies and manipulation. I can't really deal with it.
Oh no, I feel you on that. As the biggest Hillary supporter on this forum, I'm extra bitter about the result as you can probably imagine. We could be listening to President Clinton droning about exceeding the standards set by the Paris Accords if a few people in a few states hadn't believed a Facebook ad about the Clinton Foundation running a paramilitary drug/ child trafficking operation in Africa.
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On September 30 2017 02:25 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 02:20 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 02:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 02:06 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 02:00 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:55 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 01:22 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:00 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:Reading about Russia's efforts to influence conversations around BLM and Antifa'esque movements is fascinating. Browsing Twitter, it was clear that there was some enormous spike in extremist activism. Sure, a few of my typically dipshit liberal friends were ranting about patriarchy in all the ways they normally do, but 2016 was different. It was this previously fringe, militant perspective that took so much more of a stand. Reading about the fact that Russia did its best to spark that fire, then fan it and help it grow, makes total sense. I also take pleasure in being able to be this condescending regarding BLM. They were such dipshits that a foreign government was able to rile them up and make them even more angry. They were used because their views were divisive and extreme, but also because of how gullible and longing for connection these fringe bags of shit tend to be. People who subscribe to extremist beliefs typically feel like their power has been taken from them and that they are weak to create their own path. They cling on to extremist nonsense because definitive, all-or-nothing, "had enough already" types of thinking gives people resolve. By being unyielding, they start to feel like they are actually powerful or actually making a difference. Because they were weak, they got used. But also, fuck those people for being weak trash. They brought us all down with them because they were weak and shitty. Edit: This is what I'm referring to http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/28/media/blacktivist-russia-facebook-twitter/index.htmlIf you tell young, weak, misguided shitbags who are looking for an excuse for their misery, all the ways they can feel powerful, they are going to take that bait. Wait, you are calling BLM weak for believing the Russian misinformation efforts? The Russian goal is to drive division and your hot take is that it’s groups like BLM fault for buying into the division? Are you not just buying into the division by blaming everyone but the people who are lying? I am certainly being critical here. But what I am criticizing is the idea that a lot of these young, weak individuals were looking for meaning and a way to finally feel empowered. They saw radical, divisive, extreme perspectives being tweeted and retweeted. They see 20K retweets and, being pitiful individuals, felt like these perspectives must have some sort of truth or validity. They look at things like demanding reparations as a flat tax on white people and say "Ya know what, looking at how many people also feel this way, and seeing how weak I feel right now, they just might be right". THAT is what I am criticizing: The weakness of the individual. They should have realized this is extremist nonsense and moved on. I fault the individual for being shitty and being susceptible to this type of thinking. We all know how these types of things work. It is the same way Trump legitimized what I would call barely-not-white-supremacy. A ton of people now think his perspectives are justifiable and that they will eventually empower lower-class whites. In many ways, Russia is just riling up people the same way Trump did. My point is that the type of person who is vulnerable to thinking viewpoints are legitimate or ethical because of the appearance of widespread appeal, are shitty people and I am very upset with them. I hate that their weakness brings my country down. Mohdoo: I know you aren’t a bad dude, which is why I brought it up. A number of your posts have focused on “weakness” with an extremely negative tone. That people who are manipulated and tricked are almost worse that the bad actors that are trying to trick them. That their weakness is something we should shun and be ashamed of. I’ve worked in some less than forgiving areas of law, including eviction and probation. I understand that frustration with people who do this stuff and that they should just get their life together. Personally, I think you should really push back against those feelings and views. It’s a bad way to view people and the world. Save the blame for people who are actively trying to lie and deceive, rather than lay it on the people who are deceived. On September 30 2017 01:52 Mohdoo wrote:
Person A is looking for any possible way to feel empowered. They exercise extremely poor critical thinking and skepticism as they read about ridiculous nonsense. Person A is no different than the guy who tried to shoot up a pizza shop after hearing Clinton was keeping kids in the basement. Being convinced by obvious lies and letting these obvious lies influence your core philosophies is the making of a very low tier individual. Honestly, isn’t this you? Right now? In this thread? Because you seem to be looking for ways to feel superior to those who were deceived. Some people are just nasty and condescending without feeling emo. This is more so the kinda thing where parents get more mad at their own kids than someone else's kids. Racial justice (BLM) and Antifa'esque struggles are very dear to me and I have always been on the more extreme side of things until the past few years. I consider them among the most important fights of our time. But these bags of trash hurt the cause. They lessen the impact of legitimate, intelligent, helpful people. Then get mad at twitter, facebook and the companies that provided these services that started driving the news, but didn’t check to make sure it was the real people driving the discussion. Or the broadcast media for being so quick to empower twitter as a source of news, without much critical review. There is a lot of blame to go around. Don’t go for the easy self gratification of saying “this wouldn’t have happened if you people were not so easily tricked.” It’s lazy. Yeah, you're totally right. I address that in my edit above. I just want the left to be as effective as the right and seeing things like this make me flip tables. I know so many people who buy into the worst parts of liberal media and I tell them to just get off facebook and twitter for politics. But I do it in person to people I know. My anger is for these tech companies that have been happy to rake in billions, but clearly have no idea who using their service for what. Especially twitter, who has been hearing these same complains since 2014 and has done nothing. And congress, who should have seen all this shit coming. People have been reporting on Russian troll farms for years. Your position is definitely the more ethical and correct one to take. I just get so sad seeing "one of my own" turning against the pack. In Twitter/FB's defense, I think we are still learning about what I consider somewhat of a "next level of consciousness" that is being created by the internet and interconnectedness. This has all moved so fast that I really can imagine FB/Twitter assuming this stuff would not be nearly as effective or powerful. How they handle this moving forward will dictate how I view them. Not looking great so far.
I have a less charitable view of FB and Twitter. Youtube too. They have been very happy to take the place of traditional media, without all the hang ups or pesky humans called editors. Only on youtube can you have a man watched by around 53 million people and not release any information on who is watching him and how old they might be. It only took the WSJ putting the pieces together to figure out:
Partnership with Disney + he asks fans to send him Swastikas they drew for him = No one has any idea what is on this platform or what anyone is doing on it. No one making these deals watches these videos.
These companies decided to connect us and our children to the entire world, but didn’t build any tools to filter anything beyond pulling the plug on the internet.
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On September 30 2017 02:34 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 02:25 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 02:20 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 02:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 02:06 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 02:00 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:55 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 01:22 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:00 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 00:51 Mohdoo wrote:Reading about Russia's efforts to influence conversations around BLM and Antifa'esque movements is fascinating. Browsing Twitter, it was clear that there was some enormous spike in extremist activism. Sure, a few of my typically dipshit liberal friends were ranting about patriarchy in all the ways they normally do, but 2016 was different. It was this previously fringe, militant perspective that took so much more of a stand. Reading about the fact that Russia did its best to spark that fire, then fan it and help it grow, makes total sense. I also take pleasure in being able to be this condescending regarding BLM. They were such dipshits that a foreign government was able to rile them up and make them even more angry. They were used because their views were divisive and extreme, but also because of how gullible and longing for connection these fringe bags of shit tend to be. People who subscribe to extremist beliefs typically feel like their power has been taken from them and that they are weak to create their own path. They cling on to extremist nonsense because definitive, all-or-nothing, "had enough already" types of thinking gives people resolve. By being unyielding, they start to feel like they are actually powerful or actually making a difference. Because they were weak, they got used. But also, fuck those people for being weak trash. They brought us all down with them because they were weak and shitty. Edit: This is what I'm referring to http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/28/media/blacktivist-russia-facebook-twitter/index.htmlIf you tell young, weak, misguided shitbags who are looking for an excuse for their misery, all the ways they can feel powerful, they are going to take that bait. Wait, you are calling BLM weak for believing the Russian misinformation efforts? The Russian goal is to drive division and your hot take is that it’s groups like BLM fault for buying into the division? Are you not just buying into the division by blaming everyone but the people who are lying? I am certainly being critical here. But what I am criticizing is the idea that a lot of these young, weak individuals were looking for meaning and a way to finally feel empowered. They saw radical, divisive, extreme perspectives being tweeted and retweeted. They see 20K retweets and, being pitiful individuals, felt like these perspectives must have some sort of truth or validity. They look at things like demanding reparations as a flat tax on white people and say "Ya know what, looking at how many people also feel this way, and seeing how weak I feel right now, they just might be right". THAT is what I am criticizing: The weakness of the individual. They should have realized this is extremist nonsense and moved on. I fault the individual for being shitty and being susceptible to this type of thinking. We all know how these types of things work. It is the same way Trump legitimized what I would call barely-not-white-supremacy. A ton of people now think his perspectives are justifiable and that they will eventually empower lower-class whites. In many ways, Russia is just riling up people the same way Trump did. My point is that the type of person who is vulnerable to thinking viewpoints are legitimate or ethical because of the appearance of widespread appeal, are shitty people and I am very upset with them. I hate that their weakness brings my country down. Mohdoo: I know you aren’t a bad dude, which is why I brought it up. A number of your posts have focused on “weakness” with an extremely negative tone. That people who are manipulated and tricked are almost worse that the bad actors that are trying to trick them. That their weakness is something we should shun and be ashamed of. I’ve worked in some less than forgiving areas of law, including eviction and probation. I understand that frustration with people who do this stuff and that they should just get their life together. Personally, I think you should really push back against those feelings and views. It’s a bad way to view people and the world. Save the blame for people who are actively trying to lie and deceive, rather than lay it on the people who are deceived. On September 30 2017 01:52 Mohdoo wrote:
Person A is looking for any possible way to feel empowered. They exercise extremely poor critical thinking and skepticism as they read about ridiculous nonsense. Person A is no different than the guy who tried to shoot up a pizza shop after hearing Clinton was keeping kids in the basement. Being convinced by obvious lies and letting these obvious lies influence your core philosophies is the making of a very low tier individual. Honestly, isn’t this you? Right now? In this thread? Because you seem to be looking for ways to feel superior to those who were deceived. Some people are just nasty and condescending without feeling emo. This is more so the kinda thing where parents get more mad at their own kids than someone else's kids. Racial justice (BLM) and Antifa'esque struggles are very dear to me and I have always been on the more extreme side of things until the past few years. I consider them among the most important fights of our time. But these bags of trash hurt the cause. They lessen the impact of legitimate, intelligent, helpful people. Then get mad at twitter, facebook and the companies that provided these services that started driving the news, but didn’t check to make sure it was the real people driving the discussion. Or the broadcast media for being so quick to empower twitter as a source of news, without much critical review. There is a lot of blame to go around. Don’t go for the easy self gratification of saying “this wouldn’t have happened if you people were not so easily tricked.” It’s lazy. Yeah, you're totally right. I address that in my edit above. I just want the left to be as effective as the right and seeing things like this make me flip tables. I know so many people who buy into the worst parts of liberal media and I tell them to just get off facebook and twitter for politics. But I do it in person to people I know. My anger is for these tech companies that have been happy to rake in billions, but clearly have no idea who using their service for what. Especially twitter, who has been hearing these same complains since 2014 and has done nothing. And congress, who should have seen all this shit coming. People have been reporting on Russian troll farms for years. Your position is definitely the more ethical and correct one to take. I just get so sad seeing "one of my own" turning against the pack. In Twitter/FB's defense, I think we are still learning about what I consider somewhat of a "next level of consciousness" that is being created by the internet and interconnectedness. This has all moved so fast that I really can imagine FB/Twitter assuming this stuff would not be nearly as effective or powerful. How they handle this moving forward will dictate how I view them. Not looking great so far. what exactly would oyu like them to do?
In my eyes, large social networks have become crucial components of human connection and exchange of ideas. It has changed basically every component of how humans connect. To me, this essentially translates to them being components of our brains. Similar to how the banking industry has very specific regulations, so too should social media platforms. I don't really know what that looks like, but the fact is that social media has direct, huge impacts on society. They can't just be left alone to do whatever makes them the most money. You could almost argue social media running wild is just as bad as healthcare running wild. I feel like the role of social media in the US has developed so rapidly, yet under our noses, that we aren't even realizing how different the world was 10 years ago.
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On September 30 2017 02:39 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 02:34 zlefin wrote:On September 30 2017 02:25 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 02:20 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 02:14 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 02:06 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 02:00 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:55 Plansix wrote:On September 30 2017 01:22 Mohdoo wrote:On September 30 2017 01:00 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Wait, you are calling BLM weak for believing the Russian misinformation efforts? The Russian goal is to drive division and your hot take is that it’s groups like BLM fault for buying into the division?
Are you not just buying into the division by blaming everyone but the people who are lying?
I am certainly being critical here. But what I am criticizing is the idea that a lot of these young, weak individuals were looking for meaning and a way to finally feel empowered. They saw radical, divisive, extreme perspectives being tweeted and retweeted. They see 20K retweets and, being pitiful individuals, felt like these perspectives must have some sort of truth or validity. They look at things like demanding reparations as a flat tax on white people and say "Ya know what, looking at how many people also feel this way, and seeing how weak I feel right now, they just might be right". THAT is what I am criticizing: The weakness of the individual. They should have realized this is extremist nonsense and moved on. I fault the individual for being shitty and being susceptible to this type of thinking. We all know how these types of things work. It is the same way Trump legitimized what I would call barely-not-white-supremacy. A ton of people now think his perspectives are justifiable and that they will eventually empower lower-class whites. In many ways, Russia is just riling up people the same way Trump did. My point is that the type of person who is vulnerable to thinking viewpoints are legitimate or ethical because of the appearance of widespread appeal, are shitty people and I am very upset with them. I hate that their weakness brings my country down. Mohdoo: I know you aren’t a bad dude, which is why I brought it up. A number of your posts have focused on “weakness” with an extremely negative tone. That people who are manipulated and tricked are almost worse that the bad actors that are trying to trick them. That their weakness is something we should shun and be ashamed of. I’ve worked in some less than forgiving areas of law, including eviction and probation. I understand that frustration with people who do this stuff and that they should just get their life together. Personally, I think you should really push back against those feelings and views. It’s a bad way to view people and the world. Save the blame for people who are actively trying to lie and deceive, rather than lay it on the people who are deceived. On September 30 2017 01:52 Mohdoo wrote:
Person A is looking for any possible way to feel empowered. They exercise extremely poor critical thinking and skepticism as they read about ridiculous nonsense. Person A is no different than the guy who tried to shoot up a pizza shop after hearing Clinton was keeping kids in the basement. Being convinced by obvious lies and letting these obvious lies influence your core philosophies is the making of a very low tier individual. Honestly, isn’t this you? Right now? In this thread? Because you seem to be looking for ways to feel superior to those who were deceived. Some people are just nasty and condescending without feeling emo. This is more so the kinda thing where parents get more mad at their own kids than someone else's kids. Racial justice (BLM) and Antifa'esque struggles are very dear to me and I have always been on the more extreme side of things until the past few years. I consider them among the most important fights of our time. But these bags of trash hurt the cause. They lessen the impact of legitimate, intelligent, helpful people. Then get mad at twitter, facebook and the companies that provided these services that started driving the news, but didn’t check to make sure it was the real people driving the discussion. Or the broadcast media for being so quick to empower twitter as a source of news, without much critical review. There is a lot of blame to go around. Don’t go for the easy self gratification of saying “this wouldn’t have happened if you people were not so easily tricked.” It’s lazy. Yeah, you're totally right. I address that in my edit above. I just want the left to be as effective as the right and seeing things like this make me flip tables. I know so many people who buy into the worst parts of liberal media and I tell them to just get off facebook and twitter for politics. But I do it in person to people I know. My anger is for these tech companies that have been happy to rake in billions, but clearly have no idea who using their service for what. Especially twitter, who has been hearing these same complains since 2014 and has done nothing. And congress, who should have seen all this shit coming. People have been reporting on Russian troll farms for years. Your position is definitely the more ethical and correct one to take. I just get so sad seeing "one of my own" turning against the pack. In Twitter/FB's defense, I think we are still learning about what I consider somewhat of a "next level of consciousness" that is being created by the internet and interconnectedness. This has all moved so fast that I really can imagine FB/Twitter assuming this stuff would not be nearly as effective or powerful. How they handle this moving forward will dictate how I view them. Not looking great so far. what exactly would oyu like them to do? In my eyes, large social networks have become crucial components of human connection and exchange of ideas. It has changed basically every component of how humans connect. To me, this essentially translates to them being components of our brains. Similar to how the banking industry has very specific regulations, so too should social media platforms. I don't really know what that looks like, but the fact is that social media has direct, huge impacts on society. They can't just be left alone to do whatever makes them the most money. You could almost argue social media running wild is just as bad as healthcare running wild. I feel like the role of social media in the US has developed so rapidly, yet under our noses, that we aren't even realizing how different the world was 10 years ago.
that is not an actionable proposal, nor is it really one that comes down to what the companies should do, but rather what government should do. do you have any actionable proposals?
this reminds me of one of the big flaws in the occupy wallstreet protests: many were against the banks in some braod sense, but had no actionable proposals to actually fix anything.
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EPT
