EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 8641
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23458 Posts
On September 05 2017 16:39 LegalLord wrote: "Contribute to a vicious race to the bottom" is any situation in which low-quality labor is used in place of locals by the bottom-feeders in such a way that US labor (especially skilled labor) is priced out of a decent living arrangement. I am somewhat more sympathetic to when small business owners use cheap labor, in that they're often just using the only thing they can afford in an attempt to stay afloat. But large-scale scummy companies like H1-B farms? They deserve to have their entire business uprooted. Same goes for universities that are F-1 visa grunt farms rather than good places for education at a research level, though you can't exactly put universities out of business so it's a different type of story. I don't know if the immigrants themselves are "contributing..." but I take your point on how immigration law is exploited by big money interests. My ideas of solutions aren't predicated on perpetuating what I view as the root causes though so there's probably not much there for us. | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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TLnand
4 Posts
On September 05 2017 16:20 PM_ME_NICE_PUPPERS wrote: Exactly, unlike Austria / Germany / France / the UK / Sweden / Finland. Migrants into the US are actually a benefit, they want to work, they don't belong to a totalitarian death cult, they share a similar heritage and they can accept American culture whilst bringing their own flavour to it. Let's be real here, Democrats want immigrations because immigrants vote Democrat, Republicans don't want them for the same reason. Considering the cultural and religious factors in many immigrant's lives, I don't think that's really that true. If the Republican Party didn't have members like Donald Trump labeling an entire nationality of immigrants as drug pushers and rapists, a significant number of them would have a very good reason to vote Republican as most of the Democratic Party's policies run counter to what they believe in from welfare to abortion to gay rights. I have talked to one DACA recipient who supported Donald Trump over Hillary Clinton last election off the basis that women cannot be good leaders. The same goes for African Americans or peoples from South/East Asians or Sub Saharan Africa or the Mediterranean. Most of these people would have every reason to vote for a conservative party, especially if they have a strong religious background and beliefs. But because many senior members of the Republican Party are actual racists with actual power, from Sessions to King to Arpaio, there's an existential crisis where many of these peoples cannot vote for the other party unless they want to make their immediate lives worse. | ||
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farvacola
United States18838 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12318 Posts
On September 05 2017 21:11 farvacola wrote: Most of the people who hand wave out stuff like "democrats want more Hispanic immigrants because they always vote democrat" don't know anything about Hispanic culture I think. There's also an overlap with people who think western culture is going to disappear because of immigration. Either our culture is so strong that it turns conservative cultures into a bunch of leftists or it's so weak that it'll get overthrown by the conservative cultures that we bring in. Can't really get both. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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farvacola
United States18838 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On September 05 2017 09:03 xDaunt wrote: Set the details aside for a moment and indulge me in just a few moments of real intellectual honesty. Is it really that hard for y'all on the left to admit unequivocally that illegal immigration is a bad thing? I think you have your answer. Something tells me you knew it beforehand. The debate is borked from the start and we should move on after this latest demonstration. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On September 05 2017 22:01 Danglars wrote: I think you have your answer. Something tells me you knew it beforehand. The debate is borked from the start and we should move on after this latest demonstration. Can you be more specific about what you feel is inadequate about the responses xDaunt recieved? | ||
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farvacola
United States18838 Posts
lol? | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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KwarK
United States43203 Posts
On September 05 2017 13:04 xDaunt wrote: It's a simple idea, and I wish it was purely tautological. If the Left was sane on the issue, it certainly would be. But instead, as demonstrated above, there are countless apologists on the Left for illegal immigration. One would think that there'd be less love for human trafficking and indentured servitude. There are plenty of people who contribute a great deal to the nation who currently cannot immigrate legally but whose presence would certainly be missed if they were not here. If your question is "would it be better if they could immigrate legally?", absolutely yes. If your question is "would it be better if they hadn't immigrated illegally?", that's not so clear cut. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On September 05 2017 17:48 GreenHorizons wrote: I don't know if the immigrants themselves are "contributing..." but I take your point on how immigration law is exploited by big money interests. My ideas of solutions aren't predicated on perpetuating what I view as the root causes though so there's probably not much there for us. I don't doubt that there are plenty of immigrants who contribute to the problem, not in that they themselves are malicious entities (I would make that argument far more readily among certain other brands of immigrants, less so here), but in that we shouldn't be taking them even if they are just looking after themselves. Immigration should, ultimately, be for the benefit of the host nation, and if it isn't then it should not be allowed by the immigration authorities. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On September 05 2017 22:11 Aquanim wrote: Can you be more specific about what you feel is inadequate about the responses xDaunt recieved? Could you be more specific about what the goals of a sane and humane immigration policy are? | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Canadian negotiators are demanding the United States roll back so-called "right to work" laws – accused of gutting unions in some U.S. states by starving them of money – as part of the renegotiation of the North American free-trade agreement. The request is part of a push by Ottawa to get the U.S. and Mexico to adopt higher labour standards under the deal. Mexico, meanwhile, is campaigning to include its oil and gas sector in the deal. These major moves on the labour and energy files came over the weekend at the second round of NAFTA renegotiations in Mexico City. One group of negotiators spent all day Sunday working on the labour file, according to a schedule of the talks obtained by The Globe and Mail. One source familiar with the discussions said Canada wants the United States to pass a federal law stopping state governments from enacting right-to-work legislation; the source said the United States has not agreed to such a request. Canada believes that lower labour standards in the United States and Mexico, including right to work, give those countries an unfair advantage in attracting jobs. The Globe and Mail Good luck, Canada. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 05 2017 22:22 Danglars wrote: Could you be more specific about what the goals of a sane and humane immigration policy are? The question was posted to the conservatives. What do you want? What are the policies that you are looking for? | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On September 05 2017 22:22 Danglars wrote: Could you be more specific about what the goals of a sane and humane immigration policy are? My goal (which would necessarily encompass more than simply immigration policy) is a world in which nobody has an economic or political need to illicitly move from one country to another, which would as a consequence result in no illegal immigration. + Show Spoiler + (Obviously with some other conditions, since a world in which everybody is dead would technically satisfy that criteria. Assume sanity and move on.) In my opinion, harsh treatment of many prospective immigrants who are currently treated as illegal immigrants will result in movement further away from that goal, not closer to it. I acknowledge that you might have wanted to see an answer to this question before answering mine, but I still want an answer to mine. | ||
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KwarK
United States43203 Posts
1. Encouraging people who bring high value to the US to come live and work in the US. 2. Making exceptions to 1 for refugees, people with existing family in the US, and other ethical considerations. 3. Making exceptions to 2 for people who are undesirable for whatever reason. | ||
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