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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 18 2017 06:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 06:04 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 05:54 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 05:49 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 05:34 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 05:24 xDaunt wrote:I can't see the WashPo articles, but the stuff dealing with redlining are past problems in that the government has already enacted laws prohibiting those practices. So what do you want to do? The laws need to be enforced or updated to address the issues. Deal with red lining again. There is no middle class housing being built in America. Subsided housing is still being built in blocks, rather than in mixed communities(economic, not race). No child left behind was in place for over a decade and we need to re-invest in those school districts to rebuild them. We need to reform police departments and training to limit racial profiling. But we can’t do any of that because people still argue if racism is a problem in America. They look at toothless laws and assume those are sufficient. So we argue over and over about what is racism. Those mostly aren't even race-driven issues. Those are economic and class issues. Inserting race into that stuff does nothing more than shit up the conversation by dividing people and causing them to disengage. In some ways you are right about that. It isn’t only a race issue. But it impacts a larger number of minorities than whites. So it is an issue they care about and they perceive it to be a racial issue. And you don’t get to dictate what they perceive. Telling them they are “shitting up the issue” with race will is about as helpful me screaming “raciest” at you. You calm the left forces you out of the discussion, but mostly do it to yourself by simply refusing to listen. Well, y'all on the left are the ones who want something to be done. Starting the conversation with "you guys are a bunch of assholes" isn't exactly going to help you close the deal on what you're selling. Just some food for thought. Xdaunt, you know I’ve been talking with you for like over 2 years now. My tone with you has nothing to do with me being from the left. It is because you are an asshole a large amount of the time. I have told you this several times. I have an entire republican wing of my family I talk and republican friends. We are able to have plenty of productive discussions about race and everything else. Its you dude. Just you. Take personally responsibility.
I'm not talking about about me or even you for that matter, I'm talking about the SJW presentation to the public. That should be obvious. If your side is going to lead off every conversation with "y'all are a bunch of racists," good lucking getting things done. This is the central point that Professor Lilla has been making in his articles and his new book.
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On August 18 2017 06:03 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 05:39 IyMoon wrote:On August 18 2017 05:35 pmh wrote:
Trump is done for,3 more months max.
Dow is gonna drop at least 20%,the whole trump rally was based on nothing. People have been saying trump was done since 2015. At this point I am not even ruling our him winning in 2020 We don't have votes of no confidence or calls for early election here. Your best chance is he really fucking screwed up criminally and Mueller digs it all up.
technically there's always the ultra extreme option of amending the constitution to create a way to remove him sooner. That clearly has NO chance of happening and noone is discussing it. /pedant
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United States43777 Posts
On August 18 2017 06:12 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 06:08 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 06:04 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 05:54 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 05:49 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 05:34 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 05:24 xDaunt wrote:I can't see the WashPo articles, but the stuff dealing with redlining are past problems in that the government has already enacted laws prohibiting those practices. So what do you want to do? The laws need to be enforced or updated to address the issues. Deal with red lining again. There is no middle class housing being built in America. Subsided housing is still being built in blocks, rather than in mixed communities(economic, not race). No child left behind was in place for over a decade and we need to re-invest in those school districts to rebuild them. We need to reform police departments and training to limit racial profiling. But we can’t do any of that because people still argue if racism is a problem in America. They look at toothless laws and assume those are sufficient. So we argue over and over about what is racism. Those mostly aren't even race-driven issues. Those are economic and class issues. Inserting race into that stuff does nothing more than shit up the conversation by dividing people and causing them to disengage. In some ways you are right about that. It isn’t only a race issue. But it impacts a larger number of minorities than whites. So it is an issue they care about and they perceive it to be a racial issue. And you don’t get to dictate what they perceive. Telling them they are “shitting up the issue” with race will is about as helpful me screaming “raciest” at you. You calm the left forces you out of the discussion, but mostly do it to yourself by simply refusing to listen. Well, y'all on the left are the ones who want something to be done. Starting the conversation with "you guys are a bunch of assholes" isn't exactly going to help you close the deal on what you're selling. Just some food for thought. Xdaunt, you know I’ve been talking with you for like over 2 years now. My tone with you has nothing to do with me being from the left. It is because you are an asshole a large amount of the time. I have told you this several times. I have an entire republican wing of my family I talk and republican friends. We are able to have plenty of productive discussions about race and everything else. Its you dude. Just you. Take personally responsibility. I'm not talking about about me or even you for that matter, I'm talking about the SJW presentation to the public. That should be obvious. If your side is going to lead off every conversation with "y'all are a bunch of racists," good lucking getting things done. This is the central point that Professor Lilla has been making in his articles and his new book.
Assuming the people in question are actually racists, should the priority still be to never offend them by suggesting they might be racist? What if they're doing racist things and passing racist laws? At what point does pointing out that they're being kind of racist justify their hurt feelings?
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On August 18 2017 06:04 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 05:54 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 05:49 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 05:34 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 05:24 xDaunt wrote:I can't see the WashPo articles, but the stuff dealing with redlining are past problems in that the government has already enacted laws prohibiting those practices. So what do you want to do? The laws need to be enforced or updated to address the issues. Deal with red lining again. There is no middle class housing being built in America. Subsided housing is still being built in blocks, rather than in mixed communities(economic, not race). No child left behind was in place for over a decade and we need to re-invest in those school districts to rebuild them. We need to reform police departments and training to limit racial profiling. But we can’t do any of that because people still argue if racism is a problem in America. They look at toothless laws and assume those are sufficient. So we argue over and over about what is racism. Those mostly aren't even race-driven issues. Those are economic and class issues. Inserting race into that stuff does nothing more than shit up the conversation by dividing people and causing them to disengage. In some ways you are right about that. It isn’t only a race issue. But it impacts a larger number of minorities than whites. So it is an issue they care about and they perceive it to be a racial issue. And you don’t get to dictate what they perceive. Telling them they are “shitting up the issue” with race will is about as helpful me screaming “raciest” at you. You calm the left forces you out of the discussion, but mostly do it to yourself by simply refusing to listen. Well, y'all on the left are the ones who want something to be done. Starting the conversation with "you guys are a bunch of assholes" isn't exactly going to help you close the deal on what you're selling. Just some food for thought.
Did the last 6 years of Republican obstructionism not happen anymore?
Gee maybe no one is interested in having a conversation about getting things done because they spend 6 years making sure nothing could get done...
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It seems relevant to ask at this point...
Who is Professor Lilla? Is this another white supremacist writer?
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On August 18 2017 06:04 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 05:54 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 05:49 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 05:34 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 05:24 xDaunt wrote:I can't see the WashPo articles, but the stuff dealing with redlining are past problems in that the government has already enacted laws prohibiting those practices. So what do you want to do? The laws need to be enforced or updated to address the issues. Deal with red lining again. There is no middle class housing being built in America. Subsided housing is still being built in blocks, rather than in mixed communities(economic, not race). No child left behind was in place for over a decade and we need to re-invest in those school districts to rebuild them. We need to reform police departments and training to limit racial profiling. But we can’t do any of that because people still argue if racism is a problem in America. They look at toothless laws and assume those are sufficient. So we argue over and over about what is racism. Those mostly aren't even race-driven issues. Those are economic and class issues. Inserting race into that stuff does nothing more than shit up the conversation by dividing people and causing them to disengage. In some ways you are right about that. It isn’t only a race issue. But it impacts a larger number of minorities than whites. So it is an issue they care about and they perceive it to be a racial issue. And you don’t get to dictate what they perceive. Telling them they are “shitting up the issue” with race will is about as helpful me screaming “raciest” at you. You calm the left forces you out of the discussion, but mostly do it to yourself by simply refusing to listen. Well, y'all on the left are the ones who want something to be done. Starting the conversation with "you guys are a bunch of assholes" isn't exactly going to help you close the deal on what you're selling. Just some food for thought.
We are nowhere near the start of the conversation. People have been ignoring many of the solutions/ideas for a long time.
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On August 18 2017 06:04 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 05:54 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 05:49 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 05:34 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 05:24 xDaunt wrote:I can't see the WashPo articles, but the stuff dealing with redlining are past problems in that the government has already enacted laws prohibiting those practices. So what do you want to do? The laws need to be enforced or updated to address the issues. Deal with red lining again. There is no middle class housing being built in America. Subsided housing is still being built in blocks, rather than in mixed communities(economic, not race). No child left behind was in place for over a decade and we need to re-invest in those school districts to rebuild them. We need to reform police departments and training to limit racial profiling. But we can’t do any of that because people still argue if racism is a problem in America. They look at toothless laws and assume those are sufficient. So we argue over and over about what is racism. Those mostly aren't even race-driven issues. Those are economic and class issues. Inserting race into that stuff does nothing more than shit up the conversation by dividing people and causing them to disengage. In some ways you are right about that. It isn’t only a race issue. But it impacts a larger number of minorities than whites. So it is an issue they care about and they perceive it to be a racial issue. And you don’t get to dictate what they perceive. Telling them they are “shitting up the issue” with race will is about as helpful me screaming “raciest” at you. You calm the left forces you out of the discussion, but mostly do it to yourself by simply refusing to listen. But it matters that you don't mix categories. You made this claim: Which sounds like deliberate policy to keep minorities down. The evidence that xDaunt had issue with had to do with the housing market, which is just as bad up in Canada. But that's really a supply issue. How do you encourage inexpensive or higher density housing? Do you start cutting by government land and selling it off or what? But it's helpful to separate problems that disproportionally affect minorities because there are policies targeting minorities and problems that disproportionally affect minorities because they tend to be poor, and it's tough being poor.
Because it isn’t intentional. Not all issues involving race are. Companies may not be racist in their hiring practices, but simply use a head hunting agencies and services that gets most of its resumes from whites. The same with redlining or not building subsidized housing except for in the poorest districts. But when these issues disproportionally impact minorities, it becomes a race issue. Because the perception in that community is that it is about race. It may or may not be. But that part does not matter, since the problem still exists and it exists for the people of that race.
And then there are race issues, like court fines being used to jail people, who all happen to be black. Or the massive number of black men in prison. But the debate isn’t about solving them, it is about proving that it isn’t about race so then no one is racists.
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On August 18 2017 06:12 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 06:08 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 06:04 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 05:54 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 05:49 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 05:34 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 05:24 xDaunt wrote:I can't see the WashPo articles, but the stuff dealing with redlining are past problems in that the government has already enacted laws prohibiting those practices. So what do you want to do? The laws need to be enforced or updated to address the issues. Deal with red lining again. There is no middle class housing being built in America. Subsided housing is still being built in blocks, rather than in mixed communities(economic, not race). No child left behind was in place for over a decade and we need to re-invest in those school districts to rebuild them. We need to reform police departments and training to limit racial profiling. But we can’t do any of that because people still argue if racism is a problem in America. They look at toothless laws and assume those are sufficient. So we argue over and over about what is racism. Those mostly aren't even race-driven issues. Those are economic and class issues. Inserting race into that stuff does nothing more than shit up the conversation by dividing people and causing them to disengage. In some ways you are right about that. It isn’t only a race issue. But it impacts a larger number of minorities than whites. So it is an issue they care about and they perceive it to be a racial issue. And you don’t get to dictate what they perceive. Telling them they are “shitting up the issue” with race will is about as helpful me screaming “raciest” at you. You calm the left forces you out of the discussion, but mostly do it to yourself by simply refusing to listen. Well, y'all on the left are the ones who want something to be done. Starting the conversation with "you guys are a bunch of assholes" isn't exactly going to help you close the deal on what you're selling. Just some food for thought. Xdaunt, you know I’ve been talking with you for like over 2 years now. My tone with you has nothing to do with me being from the left. It is because you are an asshole a large amount of the time. I have told you this several times. I have an entire republican wing of my family I talk and republican friends. We are able to have plenty of productive discussions about race and everything else. Its you dude. Just you. Take personally responsibility. I'm not talking about about me or even you for that matter, I'm talking about the SJW presentation to the public. That should be obvious. If your side is going to lead off every conversation with "y'all are a bunch of racists," good lucking getting things done. This is the central point that Professor Lilla has been making in his articles and his new book.
Yes, but my leftist friends are going to think you are an asshole too. That part should be clear.
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On August 18 2017 06:15 WolfintheSheep wrote:
It seems relevant to ask at this point...
Who is Professor Lilla? Is this another white supremacist writer?
He's a leftist critic of identity politics that has recently been awarded the Camille Paglia Award for Rightwing Justification Flavor-of-the-Month.
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President Trump has just put his signature on a new law that will bring significant changes to education benefits for service members, veterans and their families.
The legislation known as the “Forever GI Bill” garnered strong bipartisan support in Congress, passing unanimously in both the House and Senate.
“Today our commitment to support and care for the men and women who have served our great nation has been reinforced with the signing of the Harry W. Colmery Veterans Educational Assistance Act of 2017,” Rep. Phil Roe, R-Tenn., chair of the House Committee on Veterans’ Affairs, said in a statement. “This legislation will enable veterans to use the education benefits they’ve earned through the GI Bill when and how it suits them best, setting them up for future success in whatever career they pursue.
Source
Already used most of mine up. And I got out before this would allow me to benefit from it. So, whatever. But good for the others that are still in.
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Canada11469 Posts
Because the perception in that community is that it is about race. It may or may not be. But that part does not matter,
Do you think perceptions can be wrong? Like, not just an alternative way of viewing things, but outright wrong?
I think it actually matters whether the problem exists because they are a minority vs because they are poor because if we misidentify the source of the problem, we will not come up with the right solution.
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United States43777 Posts
I often feel like the best way to get America functioning like a real first world country would be to make everyone an honourary veteran.
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On August 18 2017 06:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 06:12 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 06:08 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 06:04 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 05:54 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 05:49 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 05:34 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 05:24 xDaunt wrote:I can't see the WashPo articles, but the stuff dealing with redlining are past problems in that the government has already enacted laws prohibiting those practices. So what do you want to do? The laws need to be enforced or updated to address the issues. Deal with red lining again. There is no middle class housing being built in America. Subsided housing is still being built in blocks, rather than in mixed communities(economic, not race). No child left behind was in place for over a decade and we need to re-invest in those school districts to rebuild them. We need to reform police departments and training to limit racial profiling. But we can’t do any of that because people still argue if racism is a problem in America. They look at toothless laws and assume those are sufficient. So we argue over and over about what is racism. Those mostly aren't even race-driven issues. Those are economic and class issues. Inserting race into that stuff does nothing more than shit up the conversation by dividing people and causing them to disengage. In some ways you are right about that. It isn’t only a race issue. But it impacts a larger number of minorities than whites. So it is an issue they care about and they perceive it to be a racial issue. And you don’t get to dictate what they perceive. Telling them they are “shitting up the issue” with race will is about as helpful me screaming “raciest” at you. You calm the left forces you out of the discussion, but mostly do it to yourself by simply refusing to listen. Well, y'all on the left are the ones who want something to be done. Starting the conversation with "you guys are a bunch of assholes" isn't exactly going to help you close the deal on what you're selling. Just some food for thought. Xdaunt, you know I’ve been talking with you for like over 2 years now. My tone with you has nothing to do with me being from the left. It is because you are an asshole a large amount of the time. I have told you this several times. I have an entire republican wing of my family I talk and republican friends. We are able to have plenty of productive discussions about race and everything else. Its you dude. Just you. Take personally responsibility. I'm not talking about about me or even you for that matter, I'm talking about the SJW presentation to the public. That should be obvious. If your side is going to lead off every conversation with "y'all are a bunch of racists," good lucking getting things done. This is the central point that Professor Lilla has been making in his articles and his new book. Yes, but my leftist friends are going to think you are an asshole too. That part should be clear.
Sure, I have no doubt about that and am fine with it.
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On August 18 2017 06:24 KwarK wrote:
I often feel like the best way to get America functioning like a real first world country would be to make everyone an honourary veteran.
Mandatory 2 year service. Go from there. Forget that honorary bullshit. I volunteered. You don't get to just reap the same benefits because of politics or feelings. You earn it the same way I did. (by laying on a beach in Japan for 3 years).
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Mandatory 2 year civil or armed service and now you're cooking with gas.
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On August 18 2017 06:26 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 06:24 KwarK wrote:
I often feel like the best way to get America functioning like a real first world country would be to make everyone an honourary veteran. Mandatory 2 year service. Go from there. Forget that honorary bullshit. I volunteered. You don't get to just reap the same benefits because of politics or feelings. You earn it the same way I did. (by laying on a beach in Japan for 3 years).
Really Kwark was highlighting the ridiculousness of this attitude, but national service works too.
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I have a challenge for you. Try saying "we need to deal with race on the sly" to one of these people, to their faces.
// charlottesville vigil
+ Show Spoiler +
I get Lilla's point, that suburban whites are fragile flowers and don't want to hear about gender and race, but are comfortable hearing about class. And be damned if that isn't true. But I don't see how the Democratic party can function if they have to tell the people who vote for them that we have to be more politically correct about race and gender if we want to get them scared suburbanites.
EDIT: the Dems could of course play a sort of two faced game, where we run suburban looking people in the suburbs and they stay strangely silent on gender and race issues while at the same time urban democrats are forthright on issues of gender and race. Threading that needle is gonna be rough.
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On August 18 2017 06:29 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 06:26 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 18 2017 06:24 KwarK wrote:
I often feel like the best way to get America functioning like a real first world country would be to make everyone an honourary veteran. Mandatory 2 year service. Go from there. Forget that honorary bullshit. I volunteered. You don't get to just reap the same benefits because of politics or feelings. You earn it the same way I did. (by laying on a beach in Japan for 3 years). Really Kwark was highlighting the ridiculousness of this attitude, but national service works too.
If you think about it though, he has a small point that should be made. If they have access to the same benefits veterans do, then a lot of these problems are potentially fixed. Veterans get free healthcare and reduced costs on medications, guaranteed loans for small businesses and home financing, and basically free education with living expenses paid for. That's not a bad deal if you think about it. Granted, these are normally for 4 years of service (among other things). Reduce some of these for a 2 year bid in the military, and a lot of the issues kind of start to work themselves out.
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On August 18 2017 06:24 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +Because the perception in that community is that it is about race. It may or may not be. Do you think perceptions can be wrong? Like, not just an alternative way of viewing things, but outright wrong? I think it actually matters whether the problem exists because they are a minority vs because they are poor because if we misidentify the source of the problem, we will not come up with the right solution.
I believe the perception is irrelevant. They have noticed something that impacts them negatively and it appears to be associated with race. Quibbling about if it is systematic racism or just the law of averages is counterproductive when the issue could just be addressed. In the process of addressing it, the real answer if it was racist or not will likely turn up anyways.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/17/candlelight_march_ss_09-3fe842668a025637159601895c4db1ba2d320852-s900-c85.jpg)
