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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 8109

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
July 18 2017 01:34 GMT
#162161
On July 18 2017 10:00 a_flayer wrote:
I'm guessing Michelle Obama doesn't have naturally straight hair? It's not hard to imagine some kind of backlash if she'd been sporting an afro for 8 years.

I see this in the same light as Koreans/Asians getting eyelid surgery, women getting breast enhancements, etc. It's just stupid superficial nonsense imposed by social dogma and whatnot, except with a racial tint thrown into the mix.

Does anyone actually outright suggest people get eyelid surgery or breast implants? In my experience it's something these people want to do (which is not to say that there isn't unspoken pressure).

Outright telling someone with curly hair to straighten it, seems like one step further (and the unspoken pressure is already fairly bad).

Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24753 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-18 01:58:40
July 18 2017 01:37 GMT
#162162
On July 18 2017 10:27 Slaughter wrote:
US politics has now become reality TV.

I'm not a fan of reality TV but that is really insulting.




As sad a subject as healthcare in the USA is, it gives me some amount of pleasure to see the republicans completely unable to repeal Obamacare as they loudly declared they would (for the past 7 years), despite controlling the house, the senate, and the Whitehouse. Unless I'm missing something, this administration is still working on its first legislative victory.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3292 Posts
July 18 2017 01:56 GMT
#162163
On July 18 2017 09:36 xDaunt wrote:
I meant to post this editorial a few days ago, but have been badly tied up with work:

Show nested quote +
It’s anyone’s guess whether the latest round of Russia revelations will flame out or bring the administration toppling to the ground. But either way, the drama is only one act in an ongoing cycle of outrages involving Trump and Russia that will, one way or another, come to an end. That is not true of the controversy over the President’s remarks in Warsaw last week, which exposed a crucial contest over ideas that will continue to influence our politics until long after this administration has left office. And the responses from Trump’s liberal critics were revealing — and dangerous.

The speech — a call to arms for a Western civilization ostensibly menaced by decadence and bloat from within and hostile powers from without — was received across the center-left as a thinly veiled apologia for white nationalism. “Trump did everything but cite Pepe the Frog,” tweeted the Atlantic’s Peter Beinart. “Trump’s speech in Poland sounded like an alt-right manifesto,” read a Vox headline. According the New Republic’s Jeet Heer, Trump’s “alt-right speech” “redefined the West in nativist terms.”

Thus, the intelligentsia is now flirting with an intellectually indefensible linguistic coup: Characterizing any appeal to the coherence or distinctiveness of Western civilization as evidence of white nationalist sympathies. Such a shift, if accepted, would so expand the scope of the term “alt-right” that it would lose its meaning. Its genuinely ugly ideas would continue to fester, but we would lose the rhetorical tools to identify and repudiate them as distinct from legitimate admiration for the Western tradition. To use a favorite term of the resistance, the alt-right would become normalized.

There is no shortage of fair criticism of Trump’s speech: For example, that he shouldn’t have delivered it in Poland because of Warsaw’s recent authoritarian tilt; that his criticism of Russia should have been more pointed; or that he would have better served America’s interests by sounding a more Wilsonian tone when it came to promoting democracy around the world. And, yes, Trump has proven himself a clever manipulator of white identity politics during his short political career, so it is understandable that critics would scrutinize his remarks for any hint of bigotry. But by identifying Western civilization itself with white nationalism, the center-left is unwittingly empowering its enemies and imperiling its values.

How did progressive intellectuals get themselves into this mess? The confusion comes in part from loose language: in particular, a conflation of “liberalism” and “the West.” Liberalism is an ideology — defined by, among other things, freedom of religion, the rule of law, private property, popular sovereignty and equal dignity of all people. The West is the geographically delimited area where those values were first realized on a large scale during and after the European Enlightenment.

So to appeal to “the West” in highlighting the importance of liberal values, as Trump did, is not to suggest that those values are the exclusive property of whites or Christians. Rather, it is to accurately recognize that the seeds of these values were forged in the context of the West’s wars, religions and classical inheritances hundreds of years ago. Since then, they have spread far beyond their geographic place of birth and have won tremendous prestige across the world.

What is at stake now is whether Americans will surrender the idea of “the West” to liberalism’s enemies on the alt-right — that is, whether we will allow people who deny the equal citizenship of women and minorities and Jews to lay claim to the legacy of Western civilization. This would amount to a major and potentially suicidal concession, because the alt-right — not in the opportunistically watered-down sense of “immigration skeptic,” or “social conservative,” but in the sense of genuine white male political supremacism — is anti-Western. It is hostile to the once-radical ideals of pluralism and self-governance and individual rights that were developed during the Western Enlightenment and its offshoots. It represents an attack on, not a defense of, of the West’s greatest achievements.

As any alt-rightist will be quick to point out, many Enlightenment philosophers were racist by current standards. (Have you even read what Voltaire said about the Jews?) But this is a non-sequitur: The Enlightenment is today remembered and celebrated not for the flaws of its principals but for laying the intellectual foundations that have allowed today’s conception of liberalism to develop and prosper.

As Dimitri Halikias pointed out on Twitter, there is a strange convergence between the extreme left and the extreme right when it comes to understanding the Western political tradition. The campus left (hey, hey, ho, ho, Western Civ has got to go) rejects Western Civilization because it is racist. The alt-right, meanwhile, accepts Western civilization only insofar as it is racist — they fashion themselves defenders of “the West,” but reject the ideas of equality and human dignity that are the West’s principal achievements. But both, crucially, deny the connection between the West and the liberal tradition.

To critics, one of the most offending lines in Trump’s speech was his remark that “the fundamental question of our time is whether the West has the will to survive.” Trump clearly intended this to refer to the threat from Islamic extremism — and, presumably, the politically correct liberals who he believes are enabling it. But there is another threat to the West’s survival in the form of a far-right politics that would replace liberalism and the rule of law with tribalism and white ethnic patronage.

The best defense we have against this threat is the Western liberal tradition. But by trying to turn the “West” into a slur, Trump’s critics are disarming. Perhaps the president’s dire warning wasn’t so exaggerated, after all.


Source.

The author's main point is interesting and functionally indistinguishable from the arguments that I have previously made regarding the radical Left's overbearing use of identity and racial politics. What say y'all on the left?

Are you arguing that there aren't racist undertones in the discourse Trump is offering there and elsewhere, or are you arguing that even if there are, liberals would better serve their goals by being quiet about it? I've neither seen nor read that speech, so I couldn't comment on whether it was explicitly or implicitly racist, nor can I really pretend to speak for the whole political left, but I do tend to at least partially disagree with your criticism of "political correctness."

You and Danglars in the past have said things along the lines of "the left should just stop using words like racist, sexist, or xenophobic" (feel free to correct me if you feel you're being misrepresented). To me you would have to be saying one of three things with that sentiment (I'll focus on racism for brevity, but the same applies to the others):

1) Racism doesn't really exist any more so liberals shouldn't call things racist because they aren't.
2) Racism does exist, but it's not really such a bad thing so liberals should stop criticizing it.
3) Racism does exist, and it is a very bad thing, but strategically if you want to convince racists to not be racist you shouldn't directly point out their racism.

Interpreting it more loosely, I can imagine a 4th possibility:

4) Racism exists, and it's bad, and should be called out when it happens, but liberals should only call racist things racist instead of calling non-racist things racist, too.

The first one is, I think, obviously false - racism is real, and on the rise in recent times; this shouldn't be hard to prove to yourself. The second is basically just a racist position - if you think racism exists you ought to be opposed to it unless you think the racists are right. The third one might be true - I'm not much of a political operative, I don't know the best strategy for convincing people racism exists and is bad - but it feels creepy and dishonest to me. What if I don't want to convince anyone, I just want to discuss what's going on in the world and why?

The fourth one basically boils down to "it's bad to accuse someone of racism if they're not being racist." I think basically everyone agrees that false accusations of racism - or of anything else, for that matter - are bad. But then you haven't said much of value; the real question js how to tell if it's a false accusation. That results in the same "is it racist" discussions the left is generally perfectly happy to have, while you try to make some point about how just having the conversation is bad.

To return to the editorial you posted, Trump's claim seems to be that the West is facing some existential threat from Islamic extremism, and within the West there are those that want to fight it and those that don't. Taken at face value that claim seems dumb. To me that both greatly overestimates the threat to our society from Islamic extremism (they can kill some folk, and that's unfortunate, but they're hardly gonna wipe us out), and strawmans the President's critics into supporting terrorism (which basically none of them do). So you have to read between the lines to find a sensible position; in context, it seems reasonable to think that Trump is saying that terrorism is really bad (it is), and that he has proposed some ways to fight it (he has), but some people don't like those proposals (they don't). Then he wants to frame it as those people siding with terrorists instead of the West. If you think his proposals are racist, then "well whose side are you on, ours or the brown people" is what that defense looks like. If you don't think his proposals are racist, then the defense doesn't look racist either.

TL;DR: I don't think you can make much headway talking broadly about whether or not you should call things racist without talking about the specifics of whatever is being called racist. If the thing is racist, call it racist. If it isn't, don't, but also don't try to make sweeping generalizations about why we shouldn't call anything else racist, either.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
July 18 2017 02:06 GMT
#162164
On July 18 2017 10:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 18 2017 10:00 a_flayer wrote:
I'm guessing Michelle Obama doesn't have naturally straight hair? It's not hard to imagine some kind of backlash if she'd been sporting an afro for 8 years.

I see this in the same light as Koreans/Asians getting eyelid surgery, women getting breast enhancements, etc. It's just stupid superficial nonsense imposed by social dogma and whatnot, except with a racial tint thrown into the mix.

Does anyone actually outright suggest people get eyelid surgery or breast implants? In my experience it's something these people want to do (which is not to say that there isn't unspoken pressure).

Outright telling someone with curly hair to straighten it, seems like one step further (and the unspoken pressure is already fairly bad).



If your an Asian actor struggling I can see you being suggested it. but yeah nobody is legislating it or punishing them directly for it.
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-18 02:19:48
July 18 2017 02:16 GMT
#162165
So if Lee is a Tea Party like the Cruz wing type what would make abandon support I wonder.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1399 Posts
July 18 2017 02:17 GMT
#162166
On July 18 2017 05:49 Simberto wrote:
Turns out when you make it look like you can just bomb anyone you want, no matter where they are, as long as you are using drones to do it, other people also want drones, and thus some people will sell them drones.

And the reason people criticize the US and Israel for that kind of behaviour, but not China, is pretty simple. The US and Israel claim to be western countries that value human rights and try to make the world a better place for everyone. Thus, when they act in apparent disregard of human rights, this is contrary to their claim to be better than random dictatorships or crime lords.

China does no such thing.Obviously it is shitty when China just sells arms to whoever can pay for them. But they don't really claim not to do that, and we can't really force them not to either. China does a lot of pretty shitty things (Tibet springs to mind), but there is not really a lot anyone can do about that, and they don't really care if people complain. China is still a dictatorship. It is not the worst there is, but it is also not a free society that respects universal human rights.

It is the same reason we complain more about Guantanamo then about the North Korean torture camps. The latter are objectively way shittier, but they are also pretty far away, and the people responsible for them don't care if people in the west condemn them. Meanwhile, if the US puts people into secret torture camps, this is a bigger deal, because they claim a higher standard for themselves, and are thus held to that higher standard.



Good point. Another thing about the drones is that the usa and other western countries do not limit sales based on moral principles. They only do it to prevent the technology and capabilities falling into the hands of regimes they do not support,they don't want to sell weapons to "the enemy" hence the end user agreement. China does not have such an international agenda as the usa I guess,or at least they don't consider so many countries to be an enemy,and for them it is just like any other business.

The usa has sold plenty of weapons btw to countries with a low respect for human rights but with a government that they do support,there are really a lot of examples.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 18 2017 02:20 GMT
#162167
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1399 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-18 02:23:50
July 18 2017 02:21 GMT
#162168
Straightening your hair to be more professional,i can see this happen in some circles. Would it also go for white women with curly hair,just curious. A few years ago there was a lawsuit in England about a Sikh who whore his headpiece to his job as a doorman in an exlusive hotel. The hotel wanted him to remove the headpiece because it did not comply with the image the hotel wanted or something along those lines. Not sure how it did end but I think in the end he got to keep his headpiece with one argument being that London was an international city where you can expect to see people from other cultures.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 18 2017 02:24 GMT
#162169
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
July 18 2017 02:25 GMT
#162170
Yes, let's completely destroy a partially functioning healthcare system to save face, rather than making it more completely functional and not destroy it in the first place. Good idea Donald.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45248 Posts
July 18 2017 02:32 GMT
#162171
On July 18 2017 11:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/887134287350439936


And the comments are priceless too...

[image loading]
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
July 18 2017 02:36 GMT
#162172
On July 18 2017 11:20 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/Bencjacobs/status/887134234930012160


oh mccain, taking a principled stand after it no longer matters
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-18 02:45:11
July 18 2017 02:44 GMT
#162173
On July 18 2017 11:36 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 18 2017 11:20 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/Bencjacobs/status/887134234930012160


oh mccain, taking a principled stand after it no longer matters


Eh. He still makes it sound like ACA was passed under the same processes as what we've seen from McConnell, and now they're the ones that are reaching out for the first time. Right...

We're supposed to just forget what a massively public process ACA legislation was. I'm glad GOP are, only now, willing to actually discuss the legislation with their comrades before putting it up for votes. What a concept.
Big water
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4887 Posts
July 18 2017 02:59 GMT
#162174
Every Republican who voted for this in 2015 should be shamed if they balk now.

"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
July 18 2017 03:03 GMT
#162175
On July 18 2017 11:59 Introvert wrote:
Every Republican who voted for this in 2015 should be shamed if they balk now.

https://twitter.com/BenjySarlin/status/887142552377450500


good luck trying to shame them. Politicians tend not to feel shame.
I wonder if there's a decent way to select for people capable of feeling shame.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
July 18 2017 03:06 GMT
#162176


Yeah, these people are just always going on about how ashamed they are.
Big water
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 18 2017 03:10 GMT
#162177


I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 18 2017 03:29 GMT
#162178
Translation: We just don't like them.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Adreme
Profile Joined June 2011
United States5574 Posts
July 18 2017 03:43 GMT
#162179
On July 18 2017 11:59 Introvert wrote:
Every Republican who voted for this in 2015 should be shamed if they balk now.

https://twitter.com/BenjySarlin/status/887142552377450500


Except if I know the rules right they will vote it for the same reason they voted for the 2015 one and that is because they know it has no chance of passing because it needs 60 votes. Unless my math is off a full repeal adds to the deficit and is thus subject to a filibuster and is therefore nothing more then a quick show that will fail miserably.

Basically they want to get all the democrats on record voting no then try to use that to leverage. The big question is will the administration sabotage the current law in an effort to try and score political points because that is basically what i boils down to.

The other big question is is McConnell a man of his word when he was talking about working with democrats to fix the issues in the low income areas after this face is over because once those are cleaned up the law can resume working as it was before.
mozoku
Profile Joined September 2012
United States708 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-18 03:50:37
July 18 2017 03:46 GMT
#162180
On July 18 2017 12:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Translation: We just don't like them.

https://twitter.com/AP/status/887140002584559622

If I'm remembering correctly, this same complaint was made during the Obama administration as well.

The meat of it was that Iran halted nuclear weapons development, but continued to advance its ballistic missile program. Not sure if that's what's still going on. If it is, then Trump's comment is pretty much dead on point (well, apart from the awful and confusing phrasing but what else do you expect from this administration).
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