US Politics Mega-thread - Page 8099

On July 16 2017 02:53 Gorsameth wrote:
The problem is that America is to busy trying to get coal jobs back rather then seek how to handle a changing world.

On July 16 2017 03:48 Buckyman wrote:


That's how technological superiority works. Since one coal miner can do the job of ten solar panel technicians, we can expect coal to displace the inferior solar energy jobs.

The energy density of coal, i.e. its heating value, is roughly 24 megajoules per kilogram[145] (approximately 6.7 kilowatt-hours per kg). For a coal power plant with a 40% efficiency, it takes an estimated 325 kg (717 lb) of coal to power a 100 W lightbulb for one year.[146]

On July 16 2017 03:57 Amui wrote:

Uhhh not sure what you're smoking, but it must be damn good.

I must admit, I'm a bit taken aback at how idiotic that statement is.

One coal miner, if retrained, is going to do the job of one solar technician.

The value equivalency depends only on how much the market demands and is willing to pay. In this case, coal is uncompetitive on the open market and is one of the dirtiest methods of energy generation. It's not a surprise to anybody that it is being phased out.

The above shows no evidence of President Trump saving the coal industry. Perhaps what is surprising is that some in the coal industry still hope for a reversal to good fortune to be engineered by President Trump. A very recent presentation (May 25) from Hallador Energy seems almost forlorn. The results are tough and are made respectable after a 35% year-on-year fall in income by drastically slashing maintenance capex and having a big number for depreciation. What is curious is the five slides dedicated to the "End of the War on Coal" with emotive images and championing the revoked Stream Buffer Zone Rule, the stay on Effluent Guideline standards, the choice of Scott Pruitt as EPA Administrator, proposed reduction in the EPA budget and the US Supreme Court stay on the Clean Power Plan. Freezing EPA spending on grants/research and arguing that coal is needed for a stable grid is hard in a world where customers and big business want clean energy. It is a really tough time for coal, but it isn't clear how the above actions will help HNRG's bottom line.

On July 16 2017 03:05 mozoku wrote:

Isn't that what Republicans are always complaining about (i.e. political correctness)? Or are you aligned with the Republicans on that one.

On July 16 2017 03:57 Amui wrote:

Uhhh not sure what you're smoking, but it must be damn good.

I must admit, I'm a bit taken aback at how idiotic that statement is.

EDIT: For further proof that you are in fact, an idiot



Let's say a solar technician can install one 5kW roof every week with a 10 year lifespan(this seems too short to me but round numbers are nice), with 30% power production of that averaged out due to night cloud and so on, averaging 1.5 kW. unnecessary upon research.

This means that one roof is worth ~15000kg of coal per year, and 150000kg over a lifetime. In 10 years the technician can install ~500 roofs, worth 75 million kg of coal, providing much cleaner energy and sustainability.

It really is just a math problem, and coal is on the losing end of it.

The DOE report says 187,117 workers are employed at coal, oil, and natural gas power plants compared to nearly 374,000 people in the solar industry.

By the end of 2016, the coal industry employed approximately 50,000 miners.

On July 16 2017 06:26 Buckyman wrote:


Let's look at the current math. First, the number of workers...


(source: fortune magazine)


source: wikipedia

For a total of at most 237,000 people working to produce coal power.

The US was a net exporter of coal in 2016, so the number of miners who produced coal for domestic power generation was a bit lower. Also, the generation half is way overestimated because the number includes the gas industry. In any event, it's pretty clear that we have more people working on solar than on coal production and generation.

And here's how much power we get out of that:
Coal power generated in 2016... 1,240,108 MWH
Solar power generated in 2016:...... 36,754 MWH

(source: US EIA)

a 33:1 ratio in favor of coal in total generation and over a 50:1 ratio per worker.

On July 16 2017 06:35 Simberto wrote:


You are very good at looking at simple numbers and coming to conclusions. Sadly, those simply numbers suck at describing what you want to describe.

For example, a month after the coal workers stop working, the coal energy stops. Meanwhile, even if everyone in solar stops working right now, there will still be energy flowing in from solar in ten years.

Also, you are comparing coal workers to literally anyone who has anything to do with solar. You don't look at the people building coal power plants, or coal mining equipment, or anything like that. But you look at all of those people in solar sector.

How you think that such a silly conclusion would amount to anything useful is beyond me.

On July 16 2017 06:26 Buckyman wrote:


Let's look at the current math. First, the number of workers...


(source: fortune magazine)


source: wikipedia

For a total of at most 237,000 people working to produce coal power.

The US was a net exporter of coal in 2016, so the number of miners who produced coal for domestic power generation was a bit lower. Also, the generation half is a large overestimate because the number includes natural gas power. In any event, it's pretty clear that we have more people working on solar than on coal production and generation.

And here's how much power we get out of that:
Coal power generated in 2016... 1,240,108 MWH
Solar power generated in 2016:...... 36,754 MWH

(source: US EIA)

a 33:1 ratio in favor of coal in total generation and over a 50:1 ratio per worker.

On July 16 2017 07:00 Amui wrote:

Solar isn't going to win short-term against chemical energy. Same with wind. It's a long term investment.

Solar also has much lower startup costs than coal. You'd need to invest millions into mining/digging equipment, all the transportation costs, environmental cleanup and so on. Labour is a much smaller portion of your aggregate costs.

Solar panels are made by the acre using mass manufacturing techniques, and can be installed by technicians with similar tools to a carpenter/electrician(not a lot to ask for). Comparing it purely on manpower is misleading.

Bloomberg says that the July-dated draft contradicts insinuations that renewable energy is the cause of coal plant closures. Instead, the draft blames the low price of natural gas for a market that has been giving less love to coal over the past few years. “Costly environmental regulations and subsidized renewable generation have exacerbated baseload power plant retirements,” Bloomberg quotes from the draft. “However, those factors played minor roles compared to the long-standing drop in electricity demand relative to previous expectation and years of low electric prices driven by high natural gas availability.”