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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On June 15 2017 01:22 Buckyman wrote:The last time something like this happened... * The shooters were pardoned by a Democratic president * The situation eventually escalated into mass domestic terrorism via bombings (100+ bombs) * The bombers were also pardoned by a different Democratic president In sum, I am now very worried about left-wing domestic terrorism.
being worried abotu left-wing terrorism; or indeed any kind of terrorism in the US; is a waste of time given how incredibly rare it is. unjustified worry; unfortunately people aren't rational, so we worry even if it dooesn't make sense to.
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Let's get back to some real reporting.
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On June 15 2017 01:34 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 01:13 Danglars wrote:On June 15 2017 00:19 xDaunt wrote:On June 15 2017 00:04 Plansix wrote:
I’m straight up nervous about how Trump’s crew will spin this. They could really ratchet up the tension if they say “look it was a democrat”. Funny you mention that: The gunman who opened fire this morning on Republican congressmen and staffers recently declared in a Facebook post that, “It’s Time to Destroy Trump & Co.”
The accused shooter, James T. Hodgkinson, 66, posted a link to a Change.org petition in late March that included the notation that, “Trump is a Traitor. Trump Has Destroyed Our Democracy. It's Time to Destroy Trump & Co.”
Hodgkinson’s Facebook page includes numerous photos of Senator Bernie Sanders, whom Hodgkinson appears to have supported during the 2016 Democratic presidential primary. In posts last August, Hodgkinson wrote, “I want Bernie to Win the White House” and “Bernie is a Progressive, while Hillary is Republican Lite.”
Hodgkinson, a Belleville, Illinois resident, has worked as a home inspector. Source. I can't really say that I am surprised given what the media has been pumping into the American public since Trump's election. I'm sure that a disturbingly large number of Americans actually believe that Trump is a traitor despite having zero basis to believe so. His motivations will forever remain a mystery. Sick and disturbing. Also reported that the shooter asked if the people practicing were Republicans or Democrats. Gone are the days I might have thought the same crowd on the record that Trump encourages violence would apply the same standards to assassination porn, traitor talk, and all the rest. I'm not exactly sure what people thought would happen when the media has been openly fomenting quasi-revolutionary sentiment against Trump. Fake news has a cost, which I have been arguing all along. My only surprise is that it took this long for some lunatic to act on it. And the whataboutism appeal to liken this to birtherism is pathetic, both intellectually and in practicality. Birtherism never had the scope and size of this Russia collusion nonsense. It didn't have nearly the same permeation into public and cultural consciousness. Not even close. There was never the equivalent of a late night TV show host calling the president Putin's cock holster.
Yep, just like the Giffords shooting should have been a point for the far right media to stop launching bizarre conspiracy theories and putting literal gun sights on politicians. Oh...wait...that was just a sick man and no Republicans were at fault...
Eh, fuck it. This is a stupid line of argument that won't change anybody's mind. Shouldn't have brought it up.
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On June 15 2017 01:41 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 00:54 Moobutt wrote:
Trump just delivered a statement from the WH.
He looked pretty upset. Which is quite understandable. The number 3 guy in the Republican-held House just got shot.
I actually just did a bit of wikipedia research on the subject... Scalise might be the highest ranking member of Congress to ever be shot. That's actually so insane. being in congress is alot safer than being president. I wonder why crazies so rarely go after congress
Because nobody knows what a Majority Whip is or how they're important to shaping legislation and the future of the country. The POTUS signs things into law, so he must be the reason that good/bad thing is happening. /s
Edit: Also, for every shooting, there's probably many more plots that are broken up
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On June 15 2017 01:45 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 01:34 xDaunt wrote:On June 15 2017 01:13 Danglars wrote:On June 15 2017 00:19 xDaunt wrote:On June 15 2017 00:04 Plansix wrote:
I’m straight up nervous about how Trump’s crew will spin this. They could really ratchet up the tension if they say “look it was a democrat”. Funny you mention that: The gunman who opened fire this morning on Republican congressmen and staffers recently declared in a Facebook post that, “It’s Time to Destroy Trump & Co.”
The accused shooter, James T. Hodgkinson, 66, posted a link to a Change.org petition in late March that included the notation that, “Trump is a Traitor. Trump Has Destroyed Our Democracy. It's Time to Destroy Trump & Co.”
Hodgkinson’s Facebook page includes numerous photos of Senator Bernie Sanders, whom Hodgkinson appears to have supported during the 2016 Democratic presidential primary. In posts last August, Hodgkinson wrote, “I want Bernie to Win the White House” and “Bernie is a Progressive, while Hillary is Republican Lite.”
Hodgkinson, a Belleville, Illinois resident, has worked as a home inspector. Source. I can't really say that I am surprised given what the media has been pumping into the American public since Trump's election. I'm sure that a disturbingly large number of Americans actually believe that Trump is a traitor despite having zero basis to believe so. His motivations will forever remain a mystery. Sick and disturbing. Also reported that the shooter asked if the people practicing were Republicans or Democrats. https://twitter.com/BigMeanInternet/status/874972869150859265Gone are the days I might have thought the same crowd on the record that Trump encourages violence would apply the same standards to assassination porn, traitor talk, and all the rest. https://twitter.com/bdomenech/status/875007676291444736 I'm not exactly sure what people thought would happen when the media has been openly fomenting quasi-revolutionary sentiment against Trump. Fake news has a cost, which I have been arguing all along. My only surprise is that it took this long for some lunatic to act on it. And the whataboutism appeal to liken this to birtherism is pathetic, both intellectually and in practicality. Birtherism never had the scope and size of this Russia collusion nonsense. It didn't have nearly the same permeation into public and cultural consciousness. Not even close. There was never the equivalent of a late night TV show host calling the president Putin's cock holster. Yep, just like the Giffords shooting should have been a point for the far right media to stop launching bizarre conspiracy theories and putting literal gun sights on politicians. Oh...wait...that was just a sick man and no Republicans were at fault...Eh, fuck it. This is a stupid line of argument that won't change anybody's mind. Shouldn't have brought it up.
It might change the minds of reasonable people; it's just that some of the people making hay about it here, like xdaunt, aren't reasonable people. It's of some use to some of the lurkers who don't speak though, probably.
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On June 15 2017 01:34 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 01:13 Danglars wrote:On June 15 2017 00:19 xDaunt wrote:On June 15 2017 00:04 Plansix wrote:
I’m straight up nervous about how Trump’s crew will spin this. They could really ratchet up the tension if they say “look it was a democrat”. Funny you mention that: The gunman who opened fire this morning on Republican congressmen and staffers recently declared in a Facebook post that, “It’s Time to Destroy Trump & Co.”
The accused shooter, James T. Hodgkinson, 66, posted a link to a Change.org petition in late March that included the notation that, “Trump is a Traitor. Trump Has Destroyed Our Democracy. It's Time to Destroy Trump & Co.”
Hodgkinson’s Facebook page includes numerous photos of Senator Bernie Sanders, whom Hodgkinson appears to have supported during the 2016 Democratic presidential primary. In posts last August, Hodgkinson wrote, “I want Bernie to Win the White House” and “Bernie is a Progressive, while Hillary is Republican Lite.”
Hodgkinson, a Belleville, Illinois resident, has worked as a home inspector. Source. I can't really say that I am surprised given what the media has been pumping into the American public since Trump's election. I'm sure that a disturbingly large number of Americans actually believe that Trump is a traitor despite having zero basis to believe so. His motivations will forever remain a mystery. Sick and disturbing. Also reported that the shooter asked if the people practicing were Republicans or Democrats. https://twitter.com/BigMeanInternet/status/874972869150859265Gone are the days I might have thought the same crowd on the record that Trump encourages violence would apply the same standards to assassination porn, traitor talk, and all the rest. https://twitter.com/bdomenech/status/875007676291444736 I'm not exactly sure what people thought would happen when the media has been openly fomenting quasi-revolutionary sentiment against Trump. Fake news has a cost, which I have been arguing all along. My only surprise is that it took this long for some lunatic to act on it. And the whataboutism appeal to liken this to birtherism is pathetic, both intellectually and in practicality. Birtherism never had the scope and size of this Russia collusion nonsense. It didn't have nearly the same permeation into public and cultural consciousness. Not even close. There was never the equivalent of a late night TV show host calling the president Putin's cock holster.
I'm sure you wouldn't be suggesting that in order to avoid political violence people shouldn't express too much criticism of the current regime. So in what ways would you say the left has been irresponsible in their rhetoric? Who suggested violence was a good idea?
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The guy seems like an uninformed idiot. Even if you were to use violence to try to accomplish something like this, not even being sure that it was republicans on the field without asking is pretty bad. This would only have helped his "cause" if he'd exclusively targeted GOP members from states with a democratic governor that let the governor appoint replacements.
(Not that I'm condoning that sort of behavior, just noting how ineffectual it would've been even if more successful).
I wonder if congress is going to vote to add security for themselves now.
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Canada13389 Posts
They have Jared, that's enough jewishness already. He can liaise with the jewish community AND he's a defacto symbol of anti-semitism.
FAKE NEWS!
/sarcasm (if wasnt already clear enough)
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On June 15 2017 01:43 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 01:34 xDaunt wrote:On June 15 2017 01:13 Danglars wrote:On June 15 2017 00:19 xDaunt wrote:On June 15 2017 00:04 Plansix wrote:
I’m straight up nervous about how Trump’s crew will spin this. They could really ratchet up the tension if they say “look it was a democrat”. Funny you mention that: The gunman who opened fire this morning on Republican congressmen and staffers recently declared in a Facebook post that, “It’s Time to Destroy Trump & Co.”
The accused shooter, James T. Hodgkinson, 66, posted a link to a Change.org petition in late March that included the notation that, “Trump is a Traitor. Trump Has Destroyed Our Democracy. It's Time to Destroy Trump & Co.”
Hodgkinson’s Facebook page includes numerous photos of Senator Bernie Sanders, whom Hodgkinson appears to have supported during the 2016 Democratic presidential primary. In posts last August, Hodgkinson wrote, “I want Bernie to Win the White House” and “Bernie is a Progressive, while Hillary is Republican Lite.”
Hodgkinson, a Belleville, Illinois resident, has worked as a home inspector. Source. I can't really say that I am surprised given what the media has been pumping into the American public since Trump's election. I'm sure that a disturbingly large number of Americans actually believe that Trump is a traitor despite having zero basis to believe so. His motivations will forever remain a mystery. Sick and disturbing. Also reported that the shooter asked if the people practicing were Republicans or Democrats. https://twitter.com/BigMeanInternet/status/874972869150859265Gone are the days I might have thought the same crowd on the record that Trump encourages violence would apply the same standards to assassination porn, traitor talk, and all the rest. https://twitter.com/bdomenech/status/875007676291444736 I'm not exactly sure what people thought would happen when the media has been openly fomenting quasi-revolutionary sentiment against Trump. Fake news has a cost, which I have been arguing all along. My only surprise is that it took this long for some lunatic to act on it. And the whataboutism appeal to liken this to birtherism is pathetic, both intellectually and in practicality. Birtherism never had the scope and size of this Russia collusion nonsense. It didn't have nearly the same permeation into public and cultural consciousness. Not even close. There was never the equivalent of a late night TV show host calling the president Putin's cock holster. When the California National Guard is called out to stop Trump using the military to take over the government of the United States then the anti-Trump hysteria will have topped the anti-Obama hysteria. Until that day comes your side is still the reigning champion of the lunatic games. Furthermore Trump is literally a fake news President. His rise is fueled entirely by the kind of fake news you now criticize, birtherism was his entry to politics, insanity like the wall, Chinese climate change hoaxes, retweeted Nazi crime statistics and so forth is his policy base. Your hypocrisy on this shit is staggering.
If i heard anywhere else a Trump supporter saying in all seriousness that "fake news have a cost", i would normally assume that the guy is just stupid. In the case of xDaunt, I think that he is simply trolling and doesn't even try to pretend displaying an atom of intellectual integrity.
In either case it's not very interesting. I am always interested to hear Biology major even if I disagree with basically everything he believes in, but I think xDaunt is only here to win against and infuriate liberals, and is ready to display as much bad faith as necessary to get there.
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Oh right, the context.
The modus operandi of the FALN was to perform bombing and incendiary actions and then admit responsibility through press releases. The first of these news releases announced the group's intention; in this document they admitted responsibility for attacks on several locations in New York to weaken the "Yanki capitalist monopoly", and demanded the release of five political prisoners, these were: Lolita Lebrón, Oscar Collazo, Rafael Cancel Miranda, Andres Figueroa and Irvin Flores.
(i.e. the four congress-shooters and a different gunman who tried to assassinate the president)
The group openly expressed their opposition towards any government that was guided by any other system besides the Marxist–Leninist principles and rejected any kind of support or solidarity towards the Puerto Rican independence coming from the government of these countries.
(source)
The worst case isn't a lone gunman; the extreme left and extreme right both do that on occasion. The case I'm worried about is that some idiots make this guy a symbol and coalesce into a terrorist organization. AFAICT in America this happens exclusively on the left. There may be some old incidents I'm not remembering, although I think the TL.net audience is mostly too young to remember the Puerto Rican terrorists also.
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perception bias at its boldest right here
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On June 15 2017 02:10 Buckyman wrote:Oh right, the context. Show nested quote +The modus operandi of the FALN was to perform bombing and incendiary actions and then admit responsibility through press releases. The first of these news releases announced the group's intention; in this document they admitted responsibility for attacks on several locations in New York to weaken the "Yanki capitalist monopoly", and demanded the release of five political prisoners, these were: Lolita Lebrón, Oscar Collazo, Rafael Cancel Miranda, Andres Figueroa and Irvin Flores. (i.e. the four congress-shooters and a different gunman who tried to assassinate the president) Show nested quote +
The group openly expressed their opposition towards any government that was guided by any other system besides the Marxist–Leninist principles and rejected any kind of support or solidarity towards the Puerto Rican independence coming from the government of these countries.
( source) The worst case isn't a lone gunman; the extreme left and extreme right both do that on occasion. The case I'm worried about is that some idiots make this guy a symbol and coalesce into a terrorist organization. AFAICT in America this happens exclusively on the left. There may be some old incidents I'm not remembering, although I think the TL.net audience is mostly too young to remember the Puerto Rican terrorists also.
So what you are saying is leftist is the worst and the shooting today is their fault?
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United States43216 Posts
On June 15 2017 02:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 02:10 Buckyman wrote:Oh right, the context. The modus operandi of the FALN was to perform bombing and incendiary actions and then admit responsibility through press releases. The first of these news releases announced the group's intention; in this document they admitted responsibility for attacks on several locations in New York to weaken the "Yanki capitalist monopoly", and demanded the release of five political prisoners, these were: Lolita Lebrón, Oscar Collazo, Rafael Cancel Miranda, Andres Figueroa and Irvin Flores. (i.e. the four congress-shooters and a different gunman who tried to assassinate the president)
The group openly expressed their opposition towards any government that was guided by any other system besides the Marxist–Leninist principles and rejected any kind of support or solidarity towards the Puerto Rican independence coming from the government of these countries.
( source) The worst case isn't a lone gunman; the extreme left and extreme right both do that on occasion. The case I'm worried about is that some idiots make this guy a symbol and coalesce into a terrorist organization. AFAICT in America this happens exclusively on the left. There may be some old incidents I'm not remembering, although I think the TL.net audience is mostly too young to remember the Puerto Rican terrorists also. So what you are saying is leftist is the worst and the shooting today is their fault?
And that Puerto Rican independence is a leftist movement because, presumably, only leftists want Puerto Rico to be independent and only independent Puerto Ricans are leftists.
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On June 15 2017 02:10 Buckyman wrote:Oh right, the context. Show nested quote +The modus operandi of the FALN was to perform bombing and incendiary actions and then admit responsibility through press releases. The first of these news releases announced the group's intention; in this document they admitted responsibility for attacks on several locations in New York to weaken the "Yanki capitalist monopoly", and demanded the release of five political prisoners, these were: Lolita Lebrón, Oscar Collazo, Rafael Cancel Miranda, Andres Figueroa and Irvin Flores. (i.e. the four congress-shooters and a different gunman who tried to assassinate the president) Show nested quote +
The group openly expressed their opposition towards any government that was guided by any other system besides the Marxist–Leninist principles and rejected any kind of support or solidarity towards the Puerto Rican independence coming from the government of these countries.
( source) The worst case isn't a lone gunman; the extreme left and extreme right both do that on occasion. The case I'm worried about is that some idiots make this guy a symbol and coalesce into a terrorist organization. AFAICT in America this happens exclusively on the left. There may be some old incidents I'm not remembering, although I think the TL.net audience is mostly too young to remember the Puerto Rican terrorists also.
that's because you're COMPLETELY TERRIBLE at being able to tell things. (as far as you can tell).
there are plenty of right-wing terrorist potential; and last I checked, the sovereign citizens movement was considered the top threat by law enforcement in general (though perhaps not of political assassination, but of mayhem in general)
you only see the left stuff cuz you have high levels of partisan bias which make you not see the right-wing terror.
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On June 15 2017 02:10 Buckyman wrote:Oh right, the context. Show nested quote +The modus operandi of the FALN was to perform bombing and incendiary actions and then admit responsibility through press releases. The first of these news releases announced the group's intention; in this document they admitted responsibility for attacks on several locations in New York to weaken the "Yanki capitalist monopoly", and demanded the release of five political prisoners, these were: Lolita Lebrón, Oscar Collazo, Rafael Cancel Miranda, Andres Figueroa and Irvin Flores. (i.e. the four congress-shooters and a different gunman who tried to assassinate the president) Show nested quote +
The group openly expressed their opposition towards any government that was guided by any other system besides the Marxist–Leninist principles and rejected any kind of support or solidarity towards the Puerto Rican independence coming from the government of these countries.
( source) The worst case isn't a lone gunman; the extreme left and extreme right both do that on occasion. The case I'm worried about is that some idiots make this guy a symbol and coalesce into a terrorist organization. AFAICT in America this happens exclusively on the left. There may be some old incidents I'm not remembering, although I think the TL.net audience is mostly too young to remember the Puerto Rican terrorists also. No one is going to coalesce around a failed assassination attempt by a lone wolf. They look like losers. There's a reason John Hinckley Jr didn't inspire a political movement.
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And the quoted tweet:
The thread is a quick read and Sam is a smart dude.
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NPR has been working on a profile of the shooter.
The suspect in a Wednesday morning shooting that injured a Republican congressman has been identified as James T. Hodgkinson of Belleville, Ill., according to law enforcement sources.
The alleged shooter apparently volunteered for the presidential campaign of Sen. Bernie Sanders, according to the senator, who condemned the attack.
Trump said on Wednesday morning that the shooter died of his injuries, without identifying the man.
Early on Wednesday, a man armed with a rifle opened fire on a group of Republican members of Congress practicing for a baseball game in Alexandria, Va., injuring Majority Whip Steve Scalise (R-La.) as well as an aide and two Capitol Police officers. Two law enforcement sources tell NPR's Carrie Johnson that Hodgkinson is the suspect.
Hodgkinson, 66, owned a home inspection business in Belleville, Ill., but dissolved the corporation early this year, according to public records.
Sen. Bernie Sanders said on Wednesday that he had been informed that "the alleged shooter at the Republican baseball practice is someone who apparently volunteered on my presidential campaign." Sanders said he was 'sickened by this despicable act" and condemned it "in the strongest possible terms."
Two Facebook accounts under the name of James Hodgkinson, and purporting to be located in Belleville, Ill., are full of posts supporting Sanders and opposing Trump.
The Belleville News-Democrat, a newspaper in his hometown, said Hodgkinson was politically vocal, particularly in opposition to the Republican Party and Trump:
"In 2012, Hodgkinson took part in a protest outside the downtown Belleville post office. He said he was part of a "99%" team drawing attention to the amount of money and political power the top 1 percent of Americans acquired.
"Hodgkinson has a varied arrest record in St. Clair County, for offenses such as failing to obtain electrical permits, damaging a motor vehicle, resisting a peace officer, eluding police, criminal damage to property, driving under the influence and assorted traffic offenses."
A real estate agent who has worked with Hodgkinson told the Belleville News-Democrat that "from a business standpoint, he did not seem like he is a radical — opinionated but not a radical."
"He wasn't obnoxious, he wasn't problematic, Charlene Brennan said. "When he did home inspections for me he didn't rile up the buyers or make ridiculous statements."
Hodgkinson also appears to have written letters to the News-Democrat for several years. A resident by his name wrote repeated letters to the editor, often arguing in favor of raising taxes on the rich.
"We need to vote all Republicans out of office," Hodgkinson wrote in a letter in 2011. "Let's work to get this country back."
"This country is in need of a major change in more ways than one, but let's start with the federal income tax rates," he wrote in 2008.
The St. Louis Post-Dispatch sent a reporter to Hodgkinson's house. Neighbors "indicated the man had been gone from the house for several months," the paper reports. "One said, in reference to the suspect's wife: 'She's got enough problems.' "
This is a developing story. Some things that get reported by the media will later turn out to be wrong. We will focus on reports from police officials and other authorities, credible news outlets and reporters who are at the scene. We will update as the situation develops.
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I really hope people calm down a bit after this.
Yeah right but still it would be nice. Especially if politicians didn't think being in power meant they have a license to drastically change everything for the purpose of giving the other side the finger and rubbing their faces in the dirt. Which seems to be the main purpose of being in power anymore. All this nonsense about shutting the other side out indefinitely and basically being on a crusade because the other side is just so obviously not only wrong but evil. If the other side is constantly portrayed as being genuinely evil then of course some people are gonna think they have to take matters into their own hands and be violent to stop those evil Republicans/Democrats/whoever.
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EPT
