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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 30 2017 17:00 GMT
#153681
On May 31 2017 01:52 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2017 01:19 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:48 Gahlo wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:33 Mysticesper wrote:
My issue with voter ID laws is that they always seem to come up right before an election instead of after, thus creating confusion and undue 'hardships' to procure an id.

though it still baffles me how people don't have one on them at nearly all times, they are required to do almost anything, and if you don't drive, you get a state ID card instead of a state DL, its like ~20 bucks every 4 years or so (varies by state)

I honestly can't think of the last time I did anything that required a photo ID outside of driving and picking something up I ordered online from Best Buy. People that don't have them most likely don't have a need for them outside of when they realize they need one for the election, when it's too late to get everybody through the production pipeline. After that, they don't have a need for one again.

I can't even get nonprescription allergy medicine without my photo ID. Beer, airports, some city buildings I better have brought it ... voting nope.

which kind of allergy meds? sudafed i'd guess? those rules make a lot of sense; pretty clear need in that case.

I am sure the laws would be very different if we could only buy allergy meds one day out of the year.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
May 30 2017 17:01 GMT
#153682
On May 31 2017 02:00 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2017 01:52 zlefin wrote:
On May 31 2017 01:19 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:48 Gahlo wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:33 Mysticesper wrote:
My issue with voter ID laws is that they always seem to come up right before an election instead of after, thus creating confusion and undue 'hardships' to procure an id.

though it still baffles me how people don't have one on them at nearly all times, they are required to do almost anything, and if you don't drive, you get a state ID card instead of a state DL, its like ~20 bucks every 4 years or so (varies by state)

I honestly can't think of the last time I did anything that required a photo ID outside of driving and picking something up I ordered online from Best Buy. People that don't have them most likely don't have a need for them outside of when they realize they need one for the election, when it's too late to get everybody through the production pipeline. After that, they don't have a need for one again.

I can't even get nonprescription allergy medicine without my photo ID. Beer, airports, some city buildings I better have brought it ... voting nope.

which kind of allergy meds? sudafed i'd guess? those rules make a lot of sense; pretty clear need in that case.

I am sure the laws would be very different if we could only buy allergy meds one day out of the year.

I don't see how that would relate to the specific regulations requiring ID for getting sudafed. nor do I see why they'd change even if sudafed was only occasionally on sale.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 30 2017 17:02 GMT
#153683
On May 31 2017 02:01 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2017 02:00 Plansix wrote:
On May 31 2017 01:52 zlefin wrote:
On May 31 2017 01:19 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:48 Gahlo wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:33 Mysticesper wrote:
My issue with voter ID laws is that they always seem to come up right before an election instead of after, thus creating confusion and undue 'hardships' to procure an id.

though it still baffles me how people don't have one on them at nearly all times, they are required to do almost anything, and if you don't drive, you get a state ID card instead of a state DL, its like ~20 bucks every 4 years or so (varies by state)

I honestly can't think of the last time I did anything that required a photo ID outside of driving and picking something up I ordered online from Best Buy. People that don't have them most likely don't have a need for them outside of when they realize they need one for the election, when it's too late to get everybody through the production pipeline. After that, they don't have a need for one again.

I can't even get nonprescription allergy medicine without my photo ID. Beer, airports, some city buildings I better have brought it ... voting nope.

which kind of allergy meds? sudafed i'd guess? those rules make a lot of sense; pretty clear need in that case.

I am sure the laws would be very different if we could only buy allergy meds one day out of the year.

I don't see how that would relate to the specific regulations requiring ID for getting sudafed. nor do I see why they'd change even if sudafed was only occasionally on sale.

I am saying his example is bad because someone can just come back the next day with ID. You can’t do that when voting.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 30 2017 17:04 GMT
#153684
On May 31 2017 01:57 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2017 01:50 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 01:02 jcarlsoniv wrote:
I've always wondered about automatic voter registration... is there any reason (beyond partisan stances) we couldn't do it similar to the way we do auto draft registration? When I turned 18, I got a letter saying "you're registered for the draft, yay!" It seems pretty simple to just say

if Person.Age >=18
vote.Register()


but I assume there's something I'm missing.

How do you determine party preference to know eligibility to vote in closed primaries?

Closed primaries aren't anything to do with the government. A party is a private organization run by its members. They can let non citizens etc vote in the primary if it pleases them. There's no reason for the state to be involved in that.

You have a point for the theoretical best way to do things. It doesn't stop the fact that states do spend millions of dollars on closed primaries for the political primaries as a matter of fact. And the existing state of things does involve registering to vote with your political party at the same time becoming eligible to vote in all applicable elections. Something other/in addition to the script he proposed would be necessary to cross over.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 30 2017 17:07 GMT
#153685
On May 31 2017 01:52 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2017 01:19 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:48 Gahlo wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:33 Mysticesper wrote:
My issue with voter ID laws is that they always seem to come up right before an election instead of after, thus creating confusion and undue 'hardships' to procure an id.

though it still baffles me how people don't have one on them at nearly all times, they are required to do almost anything, and if you don't drive, you get a state ID card instead of a state DL, its like ~20 bucks every 4 years or so (varies by state)

I honestly can't think of the last time I did anything that required a photo ID outside of driving and picking something up I ordered online from Best Buy. People that don't have them most likely don't have a need for them outside of when they realize they need one for the election, when it's too late to get everybody through the production pipeline. After that, they don't have a need for one again.

I can't even get nonprescription allergy medicine without my photo ID. Beer, airports, some city buildings I better have brought it ... voting nope.

which kind of allergy meds? sudafed i'd guess? those rules make a lot of sense; pretty clear need in that case.

Allergies very important for ID, citizen core interaction with their governance ... eh who cares? It's not the by-the-book argument, just an observation at the vast number of things that require ID and aren't generally considered racist policies.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-30 17:09:45
May 30 2017 17:09 GMT
#153686
On May 31 2017 01:59 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2017 01:41 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:15 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:01 Simberto wrote:
On May 30 2017 23:58 Danglars wrote:
On May 30 2017 23:51 LegalLord wrote:
IDs in principle aren't a problem. The courts do suggest that they almost intentionally disproportionately target black voters, which does make them highly problematic.

I heard and registered the exact opposite. And do you mean disproportionately affect or actually target blacks? If they're passing out free photo ids and just refuse to put offices in the inner cities and reasonable registration deadlines, that's absolutely wrong. But in a democracy, one of the absolutely core ways citizens participate in their government, and deceased voters that cast ballots every year is a travesty.

I absolutely want to deny the dead the right to vote, but you may claim zombie discrimination and I'll cop to that.


Yeah, but once again, is that actually happening in a1 that happening, but tens of thousands of cases of people not voting due to those laws.

There has to be some proportion between the positive expected result and the negative byproduct to make that argument work, otherwise it becomes apparent that the negative byproduct is the actual goal, while the positive expected result is simply a pretext to achieve that actual goal.

With no way of truly quantifying fraudulent votes in this nation (apart from states that have voter id laws) we run into underreported problems. Just because, say 100 people were cited for jaywalking in LA mean that only 100 actually jaywalked? Michigan has their poll challenger programs which you can look into. North Carolina had increased black voter turnout after a voter ID law was passed.

Anyways, verifying the integrity of the vote is a noble end in itself. Not an issue who cares if only x murders are committed in our city, they're not worth investigating administrative and legislative solutions.


We have never actually needed our ID to vote in NC. All the laws were struck down as unconstitutional.

It was a law on the books for the 2014 election and turnout increased. It wasn't struck down before implementation.


The law was on the books, but the voter ID part did not go into effect until 2016. The changes to election funding did go in effect immediately. It's house bill 589 if you want to read up on it.
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 30 2017 17:09 GMT
#153687
On May 31 2017 02:07 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2017 01:52 zlefin wrote:
On May 31 2017 01:19 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:48 Gahlo wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:33 Mysticesper wrote:
My issue with voter ID laws is that they always seem to come up right before an election instead of after, thus creating confusion and undue 'hardships' to procure an id.

though it still baffles me how people don't have one on them at nearly all times, they are required to do almost anything, and if you don't drive, you get a state ID card instead of a state DL, its like ~20 bucks every 4 years or so (varies by state)

I honestly can't think of the last time I did anything that required a photo ID outside of driving and picking something up I ordered online from Best Buy. People that don't have them most likely don't have a need for them outside of when they realize they need one for the election, when it's too late to get everybody through the production pipeline. After that, they don't have a need for one again.

I can't even get nonprescription allergy medicine without my photo ID. Beer, airports, some city buildings I better have brought it ... voting nope.

which kind of allergy meds? sudafed i'd guess? those rules make a lot of sense; pretty clear need in that case.

Allergies very important for ID, citizen core interaction with their governance ... eh who cares? It's not the by-the-book argument, just an observation at the vast number of things that require ID and aren't generally considered racist policies.

Have you considered why that is? Or why there are voter ID laws that are fine and others that are struck down?
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44302 Posts
May 30 2017 17:09 GMT
#153688
On May 31 2017 02:07 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2017 01:52 zlefin wrote:
On May 31 2017 01:19 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:48 Gahlo wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:33 Mysticesper wrote:
My issue with voter ID laws is that they always seem to come up right before an election instead of after, thus creating confusion and undue 'hardships' to procure an id.

though it still baffles me how people don't have one on them at nearly all times, they are required to do almost anything, and if you don't drive, you get a state ID card instead of a state DL, its like ~20 bucks every 4 years or so (varies by state)

I honestly can't think of the last time I did anything that required a photo ID outside of driving and picking something up I ordered online from Best Buy. People that don't have them most likely don't have a need for them outside of when they realize they need one for the election, when it's too late to get everybody through the production pipeline. After that, they don't have a need for one again.

I can't even get nonprescription allergy medicine without my photo ID. Beer, airports, some city buildings I better have brought it ... voting nope.

which kind of allergy meds? sudafed i'd guess? those rules make a lot of sense; pretty clear need in that case.

Allergies very important for ID, citizen core interaction with their governance ... eh who cares? It's not the by-the-book argument, just an observation at the vast number of things that require ID and aren't generally considered racist policies.

Don't pretend to be stupid. The ID restriction for sudafed isn't about allergies, it's about the manufacture of methamphetamine.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13422 Posts
May 30 2017 17:11 GMT
#153689
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/trump-lawyer-michael-cohen-new-focus-russia-investigation-article-1.3206825

haha
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 30 2017 17:12 GMT
#153690
On May 31 2017 01:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2017 01:19 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:48 Gahlo wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:33 Mysticesper wrote:
My issue with voter ID laws is that they always seem to come up right before an election instead of after, thus creating confusion and undue 'hardships' to procure an id.

though it still baffles me how people don't have one on them at nearly all times, they are required to do almost anything, and if you don't drive, you get a state ID card instead of a state DL, its like ~20 bucks every 4 years or so (varies by state)

I honestly can't think of the last time I did anything that required a photo ID outside of driving and picking something up I ordered online from Best Buy. People that don't have them most likely don't have a need for them outside of when they realize they need one for the election, when it's too late to get everybody through the production pipeline. After that, they don't have a need for one again.

I can't even get nonprescription allergy medicine without my photo ID. Beer, airports, some city buildings I better have brought it ... voting nope.


And I don't personally have any issue with requiring a voting ID to do so. I totally get the argument - ID helps verify right to vote and that you aren't voting more than once (assuming that's logged upon your vote).

I just feel like if it's required in order to participate in your civic duty, then it should also be provided/facilitated in a way that's convenient for all to do so. When it's restricted in any way, doesn't that kind of directly create a "taxation without representation" situation?

That's why I'm in favor for free (taxpayer subsidized) photo IDs and registration drives to homeless communities/urban areas that might not have the means or knowledge to get to a government office themselves. No big restrictions or long forms. I encountered more pushback than I imagined (you can ask xDaunt if he did expect it) last time this topic was raised.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
May 30 2017 17:15 GMT
#153691
On May 31 2017 02:09 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2017 02:07 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 01:52 zlefin wrote:
On May 31 2017 01:19 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:48 Gahlo wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:33 Mysticesper wrote:
My issue with voter ID laws is that they always seem to come up right before an election instead of after, thus creating confusion and undue 'hardships' to procure an id.

though it still baffles me how people don't have one on them at nearly all times, they are required to do almost anything, and if you don't drive, you get a state ID card instead of a state DL, its like ~20 bucks every 4 years or so (varies by state)

I honestly can't think of the last time I did anything that required a photo ID outside of driving and picking something up I ordered online from Best Buy. People that don't have them most likely don't have a need for them outside of when they realize they need one for the election, when it's too late to get everybody through the production pipeline. After that, they don't have a need for one again.

I can't even get nonprescription allergy medicine without my photo ID. Beer, airports, some city buildings I better have brought it ... voting nope.

which kind of allergy meds? sudafed i'd guess? those rules make a lot of sense; pretty clear need in that case.

Allergies very important for ID, citizen core interaction with their governance ... eh who cares? It's not the by-the-book argument, just an observation at the vast number of things that require ID and aren't generally considered racist policies.

Don't pretend to be stupid. The ID restriction for sudafed isn't about allergies, it's about the manufacture of methamphetamine.

Voting isn't just about neighborhood dog catcher, it's also for the president of the United States, the commander in chief of our armed forces. Don't pretend to be stupid. Vast areas of our daily life are impacted by the requirement of photo IDs, despite your deflections and assertions.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13422 Posts
May 30 2017 17:15 GMT
#153692
On May 31 2017 02:12 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2017 01:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:
On May 31 2017 01:19 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:48 Gahlo wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:33 Mysticesper wrote:
My issue with voter ID laws is that they always seem to come up right before an election instead of after, thus creating confusion and undue 'hardships' to procure an id.

though it still baffles me how people don't have one on them at nearly all times, they are required to do almost anything, and if you don't drive, you get a state ID card instead of a state DL, its like ~20 bucks every 4 years or so (varies by state)

I honestly can't think of the last time I did anything that required a photo ID outside of driving and picking something up I ordered online from Best Buy. People that don't have them most likely don't have a need for them outside of when they realize they need one for the election, when it's too late to get everybody through the production pipeline. After that, they don't have a need for one again.

I can't even get nonprescription allergy medicine without my photo ID. Beer, airports, some city buildings I better have brought it ... voting nope.


And I don't personally have any issue with requiring a voting ID to do so. I totally get the argument - ID helps verify right to vote and that you aren't voting more than once (assuming that's logged upon your vote).

I just feel like if it's required in order to participate in your civic duty, then it should also be provided/facilitated in a way that's convenient for all to do so. When it's restricted in any way, doesn't that kind of directly create a "taxation without representation" situation?

That's why I'm in favor for free (taxpayer subsidized) photo IDs and registration drives to homeless communities/urban areas that might not have the means or knowledge to get to a government office themselves. No big restrictions or long forms. I encountered more pushback than I imagined (you can ask xDaunt if he did expect it) last time this topic was raised.


I totally accept any individual who supports providing ID to as many people as possible by making it free. While I think access is more than cost, if you can make it easy and free to get to the point at which pretty much everyone has one, then yes. At that point ID requirements can be expanded. But not before. Definitely not before.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44302 Posts
May 30 2017 17:16 GMT
#153693
On May 31 2017 02:12 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2017 01:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:
On May 31 2017 01:19 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:48 Gahlo wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:33 Mysticesper wrote:
My issue with voter ID laws is that they always seem to come up right before an election instead of after, thus creating confusion and undue 'hardships' to procure an id.

though it still baffles me how people don't have one on them at nearly all times, they are required to do almost anything, and if you don't drive, you get a state ID card instead of a state DL, its like ~20 bucks every 4 years or so (varies by state)

I honestly can't think of the last time I did anything that required a photo ID outside of driving and picking something up I ordered online from Best Buy. People that don't have them most likely don't have a need for them outside of when they realize they need one for the election, when it's too late to get everybody through the production pipeline. After that, they don't have a need for one again.

I can't even get nonprescription allergy medicine without my photo ID. Beer, airports, some city buildings I better have brought it ... voting nope.


And I don't personally have any issue with requiring a voting ID to do so. I totally get the argument - ID helps verify right to vote and that you aren't voting more than once (assuming that's logged upon your vote).

I just feel like if it's required in order to participate in your civic duty, then it should also be provided/facilitated in a way that's convenient for all to do so. When it's restricted in any way, doesn't that kind of directly create a "taxation without representation" situation?

That's why I'm in favor for free (taxpayer subsidized) photo IDs and registration drives to homeless communities/urban areas that might not have the means or knowledge to get to a government office themselves. No big restrictions or long forms. I encountered more pushback than I imagined (you can ask xDaunt if he did expect it) last time this topic was raised.

I'm fine with that. Roll in mass redocumentation for people at the same time (reissuing of lost birth certificates etc). Undocumented legal citizens have a really shitty time proving they exist.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44302 Posts
May 30 2017 17:19 GMT
#153694
On May 31 2017 02:15 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2017 02:09 KwarK wrote:
On May 31 2017 02:07 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 01:52 zlefin wrote:
On May 31 2017 01:19 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:48 Gahlo wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:33 Mysticesper wrote:
My issue with voter ID laws is that they always seem to come up right before an election instead of after, thus creating confusion and undue 'hardships' to procure an id.

though it still baffles me how people don't have one on them at nearly all times, they are required to do almost anything, and if you don't drive, you get a state ID card instead of a state DL, its like ~20 bucks every 4 years or so (varies by state)

I honestly can't think of the last time I did anything that required a photo ID outside of driving and picking something up I ordered online from Best Buy. People that don't have them most likely don't have a need for them outside of when they realize they need one for the election, when it's too late to get everybody through the production pipeline. After that, they don't have a need for one again.

I can't even get nonprescription allergy medicine without my photo ID. Beer, airports, some city buildings I better have brought it ... voting nope.

which kind of allergy meds? sudafed i'd guess? those rules make a lot of sense; pretty clear need in that case.

Allergies very important for ID, citizen core interaction with their governance ... eh who cares? It's not the by-the-book argument, just an observation at the vast number of things that require ID and aren't generally considered racist policies.

Don't pretend to be stupid. The ID restriction for sudafed isn't about allergies, it's about the manufacture of methamphetamine.

Voting isn't just about neighborhood dog catcher, it's also for the president of the United States, the commander in chief of our armed forces. Don't pretend to be stupid. Vast areas of our daily life are impacted by the requirement of photo IDs, despite your deflections and assertions.

The constitution guarantees a right to vote, not a right to manufacture methamphetamine. Obstacles in the path of the right to vote are viewed as more of a constitutional problem as obstacles in the path of sudafed.

Voter ID is primarily being used as a way of limiting the right to vote. That's a problem.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-30 17:21:11
May 30 2017 17:20 GMT
#153695
On May 31 2017 02:15 ZeromuS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2017 02:12 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 01:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:
On May 31 2017 01:19 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:48 Gahlo wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:33 Mysticesper wrote:
My issue with voter ID laws is that they always seem to come up right before an election instead of after, thus creating confusion and undue 'hardships' to procure an id.

though it still baffles me how people don't have one on them at nearly all times, they are required to do almost anything, and if you don't drive, you get a state ID card instead of a state DL, its like ~20 bucks every 4 years or so (varies by state)

I honestly can't think of the last time I did anything that required a photo ID outside of driving and picking something up I ordered online from Best Buy. People that don't have them most likely don't have a need for them outside of when they realize they need one for the election, when it's too late to get everybody through the production pipeline. After that, they don't have a need for one again.

I can't even get nonprescription allergy medicine without my photo ID. Beer, airports, some city buildings I better have brought it ... voting nope.


And I don't personally have any issue with requiring a voting ID to do so. I totally get the argument - ID helps verify right to vote and that you aren't voting more than once (assuming that's logged upon your vote).

I just feel like if it's required in order to participate in your civic duty, then it should also be provided/facilitated in a way that's convenient for all to do so. When it's restricted in any way, doesn't that kind of directly create a "taxation without representation" situation?

That's why I'm in favor for free (taxpayer subsidized) photo IDs and registration drives to homeless communities/urban areas that might not have the means or knowledge to get to a government office themselves. No big restrictions or long forms. I encountered more pushback than I imagined (you can ask xDaunt if he did expect it) last time this topic was raised.


I totally accept any individual who supports providing ID to as many people as possible by making it free. While I think access is more than cost, if you can make it easy and free to get to the point at which pretty much everyone has one, then yes. At that point ID requirements can be expanded. But not before. Definitely not before.


Which has been the point all along. It's pretty disingenuous for one (not you) to pretend that they were unaware that was the argument the whole time.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
May 30 2017 17:29 GMT
#153696
On May 31 2017 02:07 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2017 01:52 zlefin wrote:
On May 31 2017 01:19 Danglars wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:48 Gahlo wrote:
On May 31 2017 00:33 Mysticesper wrote:
My issue with voter ID laws is that they always seem to come up right before an election instead of after, thus creating confusion and undue 'hardships' to procure an id.

though it still baffles me how people don't have one on them at nearly all times, they are required to do almost anything, and if you don't drive, you get a state ID card instead of a state DL, its like ~20 bucks every 4 years or so (varies by state)

I honestly can't think of the last time I did anything that required a photo ID outside of driving and picking something up I ordered online from Best Buy. People that don't have them most likely don't have a need for them outside of when they realize they need one for the election, when it's too late to get everybody through the production pipeline. After that, they don't have a need for one again.

I can't even get nonprescription allergy medicine without my photo ID. Beer, airports, some city buildings I better have brought it ... voting nope.

which kind of allergy meds? sudafed i'd guess? those rules make a lot of sense; pretty clear need in that case.

Allergies very important for ID, citizen core interaction with their governance ... eh who cares? It's not the by-the-book argument, just an observation at the vast number of things that require ID and aren't generally considered racist policies.

one is for dealing with an actual real problem that occurs extensively in real life;
the other is pure bs manufactured political theater only done to score points by misrepresenting the truth.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 30 2017 17:32 GMT
#153697
This year, 25 states and the District of Columbia are considering measures that would bar employers from asking job candidates about their prior salary. Last year, two states — California and Massachusetts — adopted similar policies, aimed at trying to narrow the pay gap for women and minorities.

Such measures are designed to help people like Aileen Rizo. She was four years into her job as a math teaching consultant for Fresno County, Calif., when she found out, in 2012, that a new male hire with less education and experience was offered a salary roughly 20 percent more than she was making.

Rizo was stunned.

"I kind of knew that I had broken stereotypes, as a mathematician, and as the only full-time woman in that department," as well as being a Latina minority, she says. "But then to find out that you're getting paid less than all of your male counterparts — that they all started much higher salary steps then you did — is just ... devastating."

Rizo complained to human resources, assuming the problem would be ironed out. Instead, she was told her salary was set based on previous pay — and that her salary would not be adjusted. She says she was shocked and felt locked in.

"I couldn't educate myself out of being paid less, I couldn't get more experience or be in the job market longer to break that cycle," she says. "Because low wages will follow you wherever you go as long as someone keeps asking you how much you were paid."

Rizo filed suit, arguing her employer violated the Equal Pay Act, the 1963 law aimed at abolishing wage discrimination based on gender.

"I have three young daughters, and I don't want them ever to feel that way," she says, her voice cracking.

Rizo prevailed in lower court, but last month the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned that ruling. Now, she's considering an appeal to the Supreme Court.

"After the 9th Circuit decision, I felt like now it's black and white ... you can pay a woman less," she says. "I don't want that to be the end of the story."

In the years since Rizo filed her case, states and cities have been passing laws banning employers from asking about previous salaries. Last year, Massachusetts and California became the first states to do so. New York City adopted a similar law, and Philadelphia's ordinance is temporarily stayed pending litigation.

Most of the measures have yet to take effect, so there is no data to show what effect they've had.

"The problem with proving the efficacy of public policy that hasn't been tried before is that it hasn't been tried before so no one can research it," says Kevin Miller, a researcher at the American Association of University Women. In a 2013 report looking at Department of Education data, his group found that women make 7 percent less than men a year out of college, even after controlling for variables such education, college major, occupation, industry and hours worked.

Miller says that gap tends to compound with age, and is bigger for minorities — although the disparity is less where salaries are set by union or government rules.

"When you have more room to maneuver and more room to negotiate, I think that's where you see bias come in," he says.

Rizo's case prompted congressional delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton, D-D.C., to introduce federal legislation banning employers from asking about prior salary information. She points to data that show even highly professional women such as doctors and lawyers start out earning less.

"That means, for the rest of their career, they will carry a lower wage," she says.

Holmes says her bill has support from only Democrats, but she's hoping to build broader support over time.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18869 Posts
May 30 2017 17:37 GMT
#153698
Past compensation is far too often a proxy for improper hiring considerations, so kudos to those 25 states.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
May 30 2017 17:43 GMT
#153699
Yeah, past salary info isn't something employers should have any right to know. They know what their position is worth (at least to them) and they shouldn't be given the option to try to squeeze potential employees a little more cuz their last salary was lower.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
May 30 2017 17:51 GMT
#153700
I wish linkedin prohibited rather than encouraged the use of photographs. Given the known issues photos can cause in bias, it'd seem far better to not have them.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
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