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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Schmobutzen
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany284 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-29 21:01:39
May 29 2017 20:59 GMT
#153481
You have to be patient! Especially in the worldwide sense!

The problem of racism is universal - there are regions and ethnicities who are more involved than others but it seems to be ingrained into people. That is why it will be very hard to counter it. And it will take a long time. In psychology, there is the saying that a learned behavior needs double the time to unlearn it.

Begin in your very personal life - don't preach, don't thought-policing, but show and act. And talk with all the persons and try to experience their life!
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany12080 Posts
May 29 2017 21:01 GMT
#153482
On May 30 2017 05:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2017 05:25 Luolis wrote:
Yep, overwhelming majority of white people support white supremacy. You heard it here first people.))


Well sort of, what I am saying is that there is NOT an overwhelming majority of white Americans voting in opposition of white supremacy, systemic/institutionalized racism, and the oppression of marginalized people here and elsewhere.

Is that more clear/less offensive?


That is an okay statement.

The problem is that if you don't say that, but instead say "White people are racist" or "White people vote for systemic racism", you put me as a white person on the defensive. I don't vote for racism, and i don't think i am racist. I try to actively avoid being racist, in fact. Maybe i don't always suceed, there are some weird genetic impulses that make me pay more attention to people who stand out in some way and look different from me. I actively combat them, and as soon as i talk to people, i am rather certain that they no longer have any effect. I don't live in the US, and thus i don't vote there, but here in Germany i would never even consider voting for the racist parties (Here it is mostly against muslims and refugees, but that is not really relevant). In fact, if a party openly supported discriminatory politics, that would definitively mean that i don't vote for them.

But if you say "White people vote racist" or something along those lines, that makes me think that you are talking to me. Since you are not exactly clear what that "voting racist" means, that could mean that you think i don't vote anti-racist enough, or something along those lines. And since i already vote against racists, that would mean that you want me to take some very extreme position to be considered not racist.

This leads to me wanting to defend myself against the accusation that in my opinion is not well founded. (Also, i don't really like "white" being a defining part of my identity. I don't think that the most relevant thing about me is my skin colour.)

I think if you use more precise statements, you will notice that people react a lot less defensive to your posts.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-29 21:06:48
May 29 2017 21:03 GMT
#153483
On May 30 2017 05:59 Schmobutzen wrote:
You have to be patient! Especially in the worldwide sense!

The problem of racism is universal - there are regions and ethnicities who are more involved than others but it seems to be ingrained into people. That is why it will be very hard to counter it. And it will take a long time. In psychology, there is the saying that a learned behavior needs double the time to unlearn it.

Begin in your very personal life - don't preach, don't thought-policing, but show and act. And talk with all persons!


We could enslave white people, take all of their property, and kill anyone who resisted or tried to teach themselves how to read for a few generations, then let white people recover and it would still be less time than it's taken for an overwhelming majority of white Americans to just knock it off with the systemic/institutional/violent racism.

On May 30 2017 06:01 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2017 05:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
On May 30 2017 05:25 Luolis wrote:
Yep, overwhelming majority of white people support white supremacy. You heard it here first people.))


Well sort of, what I am saying is that there is NOT an overwhelming majority of white Americans voting in opposition of white supremacy, systemic/institutionalized racism, and the oppression of marginalized people here and elsewhere.

Is that more clear/less offensive?


That is an okay statement.

The problem is that if you don't say that, but instead say "White people are racist" or "White people vote for systemic racism", you put me as a white person on the defensive. I don't vote for racism, and i don't think i am racist. I try to actively avoid being racist, in fact. Maybe i don't always suceed, there are some weird genetic impulses that make me pay more attention to people who stand out in some way and look different from me. I actively combat them, and as soon as i talk to people, i am rather certain that they no longer have any effect. I don't live in the US, and thus i don't vote there, but here in Germany i would never even consider voting for the racist parties (Here it is mostly against muslims and refugees, but that is not really relevant). In fact, if a party openly supported discriminatory politics, that would definitively mean that i don't vote for them.

But if you say "White people vote racist" or something along those lines, that makes me think that you are talking to me. Since you are not exactly clear what that "voting racist" means, that could mean that you think i don't vote anti-racist enough, or something along those lines. And since i already vote against racists, that would mean that you want me to take some very extreme position to be considered not racist.

This leads to me wanting to defend myself against the accusation that in my opinion is not well founded. (Also, i don't really like "white" being a defining part of my identity. I don't think that the most relevant thing about me is my skin colour.)

I think if you use more precise statements, you will notice that people react a lot less defensive to your posts.


I get your intentions and I respect that. Don't let that put you on the defensive.

Before I go further I have to ask.

Poll: Did you watch the movie Get Out?

Yes (7)
 
39%

No (7)
 
39%

Clips/heard/read about it (4)
 
22%

18 total votes

Your vote: Did you watch the movie Get Out?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Clips/heard/read about it




"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 29 2017 21:03 GMT
#153484
Mark Zuckerberg, Tim Cook, and the CEOs of 12 other tech companies have called on Texas Governor Greg Abbott to not pass “discriminatory legislation,” as state lawmakers continue to debate a so-called “bathroom bill” that would affect transgender students.

In a letter to Abbot dated May 27th, the executives said the “passage of any discriminatory legislation” in Texas would be “bad for our employees and bad for business.” The letter, as first reported by The Dallas Morning News, was also signed by Google CEO Sundar Pichai, Microsoft President Brad Smith, and Jeff Wilke, CEO of Worldwide Consumer at Amazon, among others.

The proposed law would require transgender students to use restrooms that match the gender listed on their birth certificates. Abbot, a Republican, has said he wants to pass the bill before the Texas legislature adjourns at the end of May, but the legislation has faced opposition from LGBT groups and business organizations who describe it as discriminatory.

"As large employers in the state, we are gravely concerned that any such legislation would deeply tarnish Texas' reputation as open and friendly to businesses and families," the tech CEOs wrote in their letter to Abbot. "Our ability to attract, recruit and retain top talent, encourage new business relocations, expansions and investment, and maintain our economic competitiveness would all be negatively affected.”

“Discrimination is wrong and it has no place in Texas or anywhere in our country,” the letter continues. “Our perspective is grounded in our values and our long-held commitment to diversity and inclusion.”

More than 80 tech executives spoke out against a similar bill in North Carolina last year, in a letter to then-Governor Pat McCrory. That bill was partially repealed in March, under Democratic Governor Roy Cooper.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12620 Posts
May 29 2017 21:05 GMT
#153485
Patience is an easy thing to advocate for people who don't really lose anything when the situation doesn't change (I don't know your situation I'm talking in general).
No will to live, no wish to die
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
May 29 2017 21:07 GMT
#153486
On May 30 2017 06:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Patience is an easy thing to advocate for people who don't really lose anything when the situation doesn't change (I don't know your situation I'm talking in general).


Not just nothing to lose for it not changing, they benefit from the system changing as slowly as possible.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-29 21:09:51
May 29 2017 21:09 GMT
#153487
On May 30 2017 05:59 Schmobutzen wrote:
You have to be patient! Especially in the worldwide sense!

How many centuries yet?

Didn't MLK write a book whose title is Why We Can't Wait? (If someone more knowledgeable can say whether or not it's a reference to this "be patient" argument...)

Obviously no one expects the problem to magically disappear overnight, but calls for patience can easily be used to stall and do nothing. It's also easier to call for patience when you're not on the receiving end of the injustice. If I didn't want to change anything while being on the dominant side, that's the first thing I would say to protestors: "just wait..."
Schmobutzen
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany284 Posts
May 29 2017 21:10 GMT
#153488
We could enslave white people, take all of their property, and kill anyone who resisted or tried to teach themselves how to read for a few generations, then let white people recover and it would still be less time than it's taken for an overwhelming majority of white Americans to just knock it off with the systemic/institutional/violent racism.


Maybe.

Some of my communist friends would say to that. Yes, but race and its problems is only the cover-up for the real problem. (not so nice to deny the real problems blacks have to face)

I don't share their views, although there is some tiny truth to that. Let them have their wars of race and of gender and of sexuality. That will make them only blind!
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
May 29 2017 21:14 GMT
#153489
On May 30 2017 06:09 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2017 05:59 Schmobutzen wrote:
You have to be patient! Especially in the worldwide sense!

How many centuries yet?

Didn't MLK write a book whose title is Why We Can't Wait? (If someone more knowledgeable can say whether or not it's a reference to this "be patient" argument...)

Obviously no one expects the problem to magically disappear overnight, but calls for patience can easily be used to stall and do nothing. It's also easier to call for patience when you're not on the receiving end of the injustice. If I didn't want anything to change anything while being on the dominant side, that's the first thing I would say to protestors: "just wait..."

calls for patience can also be used to discourage people from going ahead too fast and recklessly. or to simply remind people that there's limits to how fast things can go in a society without tearing it apart. so the question is really more of a whcih is it in this case.
it is indeed quit ehard to suffer injustice, and I expect people to be loud; it's far easier to vent frustration than to take the painful and difficult actions which actually result in victory. I, as most of us do, do a lot more venting, and not so much of those extra difficult actions.

a key question is to look at whether progress is in fact being made, and to try to measure the rate of it.

As a question of fact, I wonder how well american black society is doing at clearing out racism in their own numbers; I really don't have much of a sense of that.

glad the discussion finally got to some at least partially constructive areas.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35174 Posts
May 29 2017 21:16 GMT
#153490
On May 30 2017 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
Before I go further I have to ask.

Poll: Did you watch the movie Get Out?

Yes (7)
 
39%

No (7)
 
39%

Clips/heard/read about it (4)
 
22%

18 total votes

Your vote: Did you watch the movie Get Out?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Clips/heard/read about it



I haven't yet, but I want to.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 29 2017 21:16 GMT
#153491
The body language of Mattis...

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Schmobutzen
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany284 Posts
May 29 2017 21:16 GMT
#153492
The thing is, the US are not that racist as of the 1950s or even further ago. It is clear that people suffer and for outsiders to say: be patient seems way off.

But if you think about it, there is no other way. Everything else will end in more suffering and violence and in creating other imbalances.

It is hard - I can only so little imagine the frustration!
Wulfey_LA
Profile Joined April 2017
932 Posts
May 29 2017 21:17 GMT
#153493
I feel bad stepping into this pointless and circular racism argument ... but here I go anyways. About the "Why We Can't Wait?" point, yes it is correct. Progress needed to happen. But on what axis? I would argue there are at least the first two big axes of racism.

(1) Racism by public policy: poll taxes, slavery, segregation, zoning, voter ID, disparate impact policing, disparate sentencing, sale tax emphasis over capital taxes, race based immigration laws, racial gerrymandering, etc.

(2) Racism by individual personality: measurable sociological responses**, individual prejudice, support for racist causes, racist confederate lost cause / fascistic delusions, personal fear, individual disassociation, etc.

I am all on board with the "Why we can't wait" argument for (1). Every instance of public policy that has disparate impact or discriminatory intent and falls under (1) must be crushed and must be crushed fast. Sorry GH, but only voting Democrat stops this from accelerating (see, voter ID, racial gerrymandering, Sessions reverse-sentencing reform, Trumpian immigration enforcement).

But point (2) is one of those, we just have to be patient problems. Just making it so people will be politically correct and not show open prejudice based on skin color is tough in the age of Trump. There is only so much government through collective action and laws can do about (2). Public pressure and media campaigns wrecked a whole lot of anti-gay prejudice over the last few years, but race prejudice in category (2) remains stubborn are difficult to mitigate.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167283094004
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12620 Posts
May 29 2017 21:20 GMT
#153494
On May 30 2017 06:16 Schmobutzen wrote:
The thing is, the US are not that racist as of the 1950s or even further ago.


And this is one of the main reasons why you're okay with being patient. You don't think the problem is that bad.

Either you or GH is wrong about this. At some point, you're going to have to figure out which one is.
No will to live, no wish to die
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-05-29 21:23:25
May 29 2017 21:22 GMT
#153495
By a lot of accounts if we look at racial inequality by the numbers (inequality, school segregation). it's hardly changed since 1968. Christopher Hayes wrote a book on it (A Colony in a Nation, really good book on the topic in general in my opinion). So saying wait seems silly when it's not really getting better.
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
May 29 2017 21:23 GMT
#153496
On May 30 2017 06:16 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
The body language of Mattis...

https://twitter.com/drstef/status/869216192317227008

I can't remember the last time I saw a smile so forced, with Trump singing along right next to him, looking like an 8 year old. If the POTUS understands and appreciates the gravity of his leadership, he sure doesn't show it.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
May 29 2017 21:23 GMT
#153497
On May 30 2017 06:16 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2017 06:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
Before I go further I have to ask.

Poll: Did you watch the movie Get Out?

Yes (7)
 
39%

No (7)
 
39%

Clips/heard/read about it (4)
 
22%

18 total votes

Your vote: Did you watch the movie Get Out?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Clips/heard/read about it



I haven't yet, but I want to.


Well I have a question for those that have, so I'll put it in spoilers as to try to avoid messing it up for you (technically it shouldn't but other's might), it's a good movie.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Schmobutzen
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany284 Posts
May 29 2017 21:24 GMT
#153498
I don't think it is that dichotomous. Wulfey_ LA made some good points in that remark.

Schmobutzen
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany284 Posts
May 29 2017 21:26 GMT
#153499
I don't say wait!

I say: ponder your actions and try to change what you can actually change!
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
May 29 2017 21:29 GMT
#153500
To the people who have seen the movie Get Out:
+ Show Spoiler +

Do you think the family and friends that attended the party thought of themselves as "racist"?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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