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On May 30 2017 03:56 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2017 03:53 Plansix wrote:
The problem for black voters is that if the vote Republican, they might not get to vote again. Voter repression real limits voting options. I'd say there's handful of other problems for Black voters, but yeah, having no one to vote for is one of them.
I think black voters in America should take a lesson from the christian right and vote all the time, all day every election day. The christian right has that GOP by the balls simply because they always turn out to vote in numbers that matter in local elections.
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On May 30 2017 05:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2017 03:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 30 2017 03:53 Plansix wrote:
The problem for black voters is that if the vote Republican, they might not get to vote again. Voter repression real limits voting options. I'd say there's handful of other problems for Black voters, but yeah, having no one to vote for is one of them. I think black voters in America should take a lesson from the christian right and vote all the time, all day every election day. The christian right has that GOP by the balls simply because they always turn out to vote in numbers that matter in local elections.
Yeah, there's a whole other discussion to be had about how our political system corrupts our representatives from the top down and inside out and as a result, voting more frequently for the no one that represents you, or the person who does such in a way that is viewed as a threat by the dominant population and has no chance of winning will net you little to no influence , but like I said, that's a whole other discussion.
I think white voters in America should take a lesson from decent human beings and stop voting for people who are so intent on perpetuating white supremacy, systemic, and institutional racism, and oppression of marginalized people in general. But hey, what are we going to do right?
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You see, GH, I am a German and part of my history is one of the most heinous and shameful act ever done. But I won't stand for somebody to make me feel ashamed for a thing I did not do. I will tell jokes about Nazis and Jews if I feel like because I did not do anything back then or later or to this day. If there is someone to ask me to back down, because he feels offended, I likely will do back down, because I think of me as a decent person and can understand why somebody could feel different about this topic than me. But the same person can't make me do it, whether his demanding nor his screams or threats (maybe if it gets a little too rough I might decide to just go). But if he reasons with me, in the case I won't back down, I will listen! And we will talk and then I decide.
Most of the white people, whatever that means - and I am inclined to say, that such a thing does not exist - did not do anything that would reward the name racist. Maybe they are born into a rigid system that actually values them more than other races - guess what? They still are not really responsible for it because they didn't do anything. They are responsible for not doing anything - but this may be very different for it is harder for people who live their whole life under a certain condition, to see its shortcomings AND to fight against that and their neighbors.
Your stance is too extreme. You are preaching and not reasoning. Listen first! Even to a member of KKK, listen to their fears and their hopes and their dreams and then complete the picture in your head.
And, as you speak of the white fragility, I am white too, but our system in Germany, far from perfect, isn't as racist as the USA and therefore this so-called white fragility of the American debate can't really hit me. You see it is different in my experience as a white man than that of a white citizen of the US or Russia or Peru or South Africa. And what can be different between countries can as well be different between your states, your cities, villages, blocks and flats, and persons.
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"I think white voters should take a lesson from decent human beings" I mean come on, this is precisely the kind of generalizations that people here don't like.
You're literally saying white voters aren't decent human beings. As a whole group. Can you at least pretend to try to use mildly nuanced language?
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On May 30 2017 05:14 Zambrah wrote:
"I think white voters should take a lesson from decent human beings" I mean come on, this is precisely the kind of generalizations that people here don't like.
You're literally saying white voters aren't decent human beings. As a whole group. Can you at least pretend to try to use mildly nuanced language?
I'm not excluding white people from being decent human beings, but I can assure you if the overwhelming majority of* white Americans* stopped supporting white supremacy, systemic and institutional racism and the politicians who perpetuate it, it would stop.
And not supporting them is something decent human beings do, but decent human beings also do bad things like vote to support those things. I get how people can interpret things the way they do but it sails right past people how just the "I think black people should take a lesson from the christian right and vote more" concept is offensive, particularly coming from someone who knows better like P6.
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Yep, overwhelming majority of white people support white supremacy. You heard it here first people.))
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On May 30 2017 05:25 Luolis wrote:
Yep, overwhelming majority of white people support white supremacy. You heard it here first people.))
Well sort of, what I am saying is that there is NOT an overwhelming majority of white Americans voting in opposition of white supremacy, systemic/institutionalized racism, and the oppression of marginalized people here and elsewhere.
Is that more clear/less offensive?
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Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa), the chairman of the powerful Senate Judiciary Committee, has asked federal immigration and investment regulators to review the conduct of a Chinese company partnered with the family business of White House adviser Jared Kushner.
“Recent press reports indicate that Qiaowai has touted its relationship with the current administration as a guarantee that potential EB-5 [investor visa] investors will receive lawful permanent residence in return for a no-risk investment in One Journal Square,” a New Jersey luxury development being built by the Kushner family, Grassley wrote in a May 24 letter to Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly and Security and Exchange Commission Chairman Jay Clayton.
He cited investigations by Reuters and The New York Times that revealed multiple instances of the firm guaranteeing a U.S. green card to Chinese investors in return for investment in the Kushner project. “They said the president would make sure it came through,” a technology executive told the Times. “They said there was no chance it could fail.”
www.huffingtonpost.com
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On May 30 2017 05:14 Schmobutzen wrote:
Most of the white people, whatever that means - and I am inclined to say, that such a thing does not exist - did not do anything that would reward the name racist. Maybe they are born into a rigid system that actually values them more than other races - guess what? They still are not really responsible for it because they didn't do anything. They are responsible for not doing anything - but this may be very different for it is harder for people who live their whole life under a certain condition, to see its shortcomings AND to fight against that and their neighbors.
No one is individually responsible for the whole situation, yet the system still reproduces itself. This necessarily means that some people do things which contribute to its reproduction (institutions are operated by people in flesh and blood), or consider that the situation is not important enough and thus passively renew the contract.
Your stance is too extreme. You are preaching and not reasoning. Listen first! Even to a member of KKK, listen to their fears and their hopes and their dreams and then complete the picture in your head.
Why would you listen to someone who basically thinks that you're not even human? Why would you care about his fears, hopes and dreams if they involve your non-existence or you being treated like a rat? Why should oppressed people first listen to their oppressor and not the other way around?
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GH, I'll meet you in the middle and say far too many white people (I don't want to throw numbers out because I have nothing to back them up) are racist and support some form of white supremacy (and here I'lol clarify that I'm interpreting white supremacy in a very broad way, including the Trumpia chest thumping Deport 'em all cause they threaten my white majority as well as the voter discrimination and well... Like the Police.) I mean here in ol Virginia I mostly have the pleasure to deal with "Dem sure lazy Mexicans dun took err jerbz" types and fuckin God are there a lot of them here.
Actually, it's always funny cause you'd think "lazy people took my job! Wait what does that say about me?" Would cross through their heads but, uh, it doesn't.
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First, you can't really vote against racism because most of the time the various party stances are not that clear cut and most of the time your vote has to bear a lot more than race politics. And next, maybe the voters just have other things to think about.
Do you really imagine, if there would be a vote throughout the states, that stood for a good and really intelligent solution to end the systemic racism, most of the white people would vote against it? C'mon!
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@DWF: It is clear that GH listens already to the black people. Of course, you have to listen to all sides - but more important: to all persons and not colors or groups of colors!!!
Yes, I agree that the system will likely reproduce itself - but that is why talks are so important, talks between persons and not laws as in affirmative actions or policing beliefs and thoughts. A good solution is an awareness raising through personal exchanges.
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On May 30 2017 03:56 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2017 03:53 Plansix wrote:
The problem for black voters is that if the vote Republican, they might not get to vote again. Voter repression real limits voting options. I'd say there's handful of other problems for Black voters, but yeah, having no one to vote for is one of them.
This problem, like many other problems, is not exclusive to black people.
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i think you need the laws while the talks happen because otherwise people will just pass racist shit and that sucks.
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To a degree, yes. But they have to be carefully worded and should be very subtle!
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On May 30 2017 05:36 Schmobutzen wrote:
Do you really imagine, if there would be a vote throughout the states, that stood for a good and really intelligent solution to end the systemic racism, most of the white people would vote against it? C'mon!
What I can imagine is that when you flesh out what that vote would look like in terms of actual policies, a lot of people wouldn't recognize that this is what the vote is about. "Sure I'm all for not being racist but I don't think this specific policy goes in the right direction, nor this one, nor this one". A simple thing like the war on drugs; is it widely recognized by Americans that the war on drugs has been designed to be a racist policy and that redesigning it would already be a massive step in the right direction? I'm not so sure, but I guess the war on drugs is already unpopular enough in itself that you might be able to pass that.
Now let's go to policing, where they should either focus massively on community policing or they should have sensibility training. Don't you see all of the Weinstein coming out with "You know, I think cops should treat everyone the same, it's unfair that they have sensibility training specifically for how they deal with black people"? And then everyone on this forum jumps to their defense cause this is clearly not a racist statement, police should treat everyone the same, all lives matter not just black lives y'know.
The idea that things are mostly fine is ingrained into populations. This idea is often based on falsehoods all over the world. When the falsehoods reach a level that is high enough that they are being contested, it sounds like the people who do so are angry and unreasonable, cause you're literally arguing against standard reality and it's natural to consider that standard reality is reasonable. Sometimes it isn't.
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On May 30 2017 04:34 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2017 00:56 Danglars wrote:On May 29 2017 15:47 Artisreal wrote:Yo Danlgars, why arn't you a millionaire yet? Others manage just fine. + Show Spoiler +That's basically what you just said about black ppl laughing off discrimination. Maybe some can, but don't expect everyone to follow suit sucking up.
Oh an yes, of course only jobless blacks are feeling oppressed. Good point. Or all this college subliminal racism in emails shit is the insanity, and the people I mentioned are right about it. It's a wonderful thing to claim you speak for your race or the true issues your race faces, then claim people that disagree are sucking up. I mean, it goes both ways. You should at least see it that way as well and recognise that somebody in a work related meeting is not gonna lament about discrimination. By far and most not to a stranger.
Quite a retreat from "Yo Danlgars, why arn't you a millionaire yet? Others manage just fine." If you want it to go both ways, try not to marginalize blacks with jobs who will talk to me about current events. You just sound like someone that wants to diminish their import because you're more sympathetic to black college students than older working professional black men. If it goes both ways, why are you calling people out in silly terms instead of valuing other people's perspectives. I'd like more dialogue, not GH clones that don't use "white fragility" as much.
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I agree on every point you make!
But rash actions or solutions over the top will create counter forces or, if successful, will be the reason for the next imbalance.
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On May 30 2017 05:44 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2017 03:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 30 2017 03:53 Plansix wrote:
The problem for black voters is that if the vote Republican, they might not get to vote again. Voter repression real limits voting options. I'd say there's handful of other problems for Black voters, but yeah, having no one to vote for is one of them. This problem, like many other problems, is not exclusive to black people.
Buried in all of this was my point that it distracts us from seeing that none of the working class has someone to vote for
You get a choice between two different salesmen for the same general oppression. And so long as each group agrees to perpetuate the oppression of the one beneath they get to continue to enjoy their "superiority" over the other. Every once in the while you cross the voids in between various groups, but the working class has a lot more that should unite us against the elites than divides us, but that requires letting go of the white supremacist culture that allows people in Owsley County, Kentucky thinking Republicans aren't talking about them when they talk about the "takers".
not GH clones that don't use "white fragility" as much.
Pfft, ain't no GH clones out there, and I'm sure it's a term you'll encounter more and more frequently until you realize how it applies to you.
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On May 30 2017 05:52 Schmobutzen wrote:
I agree on every point you make!
But rash actions or solutions over the top will create counter forces or, if successful, will be the reason for the next imbalance.
So when won't it be rash anymore? Cause it's been going on for a while now, feels like we should have reached the end of gradualism by now.
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EPT
