|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On May 07 2017 10:16 Doodsmack wrote:
It will be an absolute firestorm for Trump and republicans if even one person is indicted in the trump Russia matter. And it could even be for a relatively low level offense like failing to register as a foreign agent.
No it won't, the Russia thing won't transpire to jack shit. The same way all of Trump's scandals don't phase him, he's rolling along as if nothing is wrong at like 40% approval rating lol. The only way the Russia thing will have any effect is if Trump was directly involved with the hacks and gave putin a thumbs up signal before the dump of emails.
|
On May 07 2017 13:35 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2017 10:16 Doodsmack wrote:
It will be an absolute firestorm for Trump and republicans if even one person is indicted in the trump Russia matter. And it could even be for a relatively low level offense like failing to register as a foreign agent. No it won't, the Russia thing won't transpire to jack shit. The same way all of Trump's scandals don't phase him, he's rolling along as if nothing is wrong at like 40% approval rating lol. The only way the Russia thing will have any effect is if Trump was directly involved with the hacks and gave putin a thumbs up signal before the dump of emails.
Even if he had nothing to do with it, it would still call his judgement into question in a pretty brutal way if anyone he employed is charged.
|
On May 07 2017 13:46 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2017 13:35 biology]major wrote:On May 07 2017 10:16 Doodsmack wrote:
It will be an absolute firestorm for Trump and republicans if even one person is indicted in the trump Russia matter. And it could even be for a relatively low level offense like failing to register as a foreign agent. No it won't, the Russia thing won't transpire to jack shit. The same way all of Trump's scandals don't phase him, he's rolling along as if nothing is wrong at like 40% approval rating lol. The only way the Russia thing will have any effect is if Trump was directly involved with the hacks and gave putin a thumbs up signal before the dump of emails. Even if he had nothing to do with it, it would still call his judgement into question in a pretty brutal way if anyone he employed is charged.
Well let's face it, we're well beyond the event horizon of Trump being not credible right now.
|
On May 07 2017 13:35 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2017 10:16 Doodsmack wrote:
It will be an absolute firestorm for Trump and republicans if even one person is indicted in the trump Russia matter. And it could even be for a relatively low level offense like failing to register as a foreign agent. No it won't, the Russia thing won't transpire to jack shit. The same way all of Trump's scandals don't phase him, he's rolling along as if nothing is wrong at like 40% approval rating lol. The only way the Russia thing will have any effect is if Trump was directly involved with the hacks and gave putin a thumbs up signal before the dump of emails.
It's Trump on the email, Trump in the room when they coordinate or this is nothing. If it's staff, "You're fired," and Trump's still in the same shape he's in today.
The media, leakers, and Susan King probably gain well, though.
|
On May 07 2017 13:47 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2017 13:46 Nevuk wrote:On May 07 2017 13:35 biology]major wrote:On May 07 2017 10:16 Doodsmack wrote:
It will be an absolute firestorm for Trump and republicans if even one person is indicted in the trump Russia matter. And it could even be for a relatively low level offense like failing to register as a foreign agent. No it won't, the Russia thing won't transpire to jack shit. The same way all of Trump's scandals don't phase him, he's rolling along as if nothing is wrong at like 40% approval rating lol. The only way the Russia thing will have any effect is if Trump was directly involved with the hacks and gave putin a thumbs up signal before the dump of emails. Even if he had nothing to do with it, it would still call his judgement into question in a pretty brutal way if anyone he employed is charged. Well let's face it, we're well beyond the event horizon of Trump being not credible right now.
That might be true for you and me, but is that true for the population generally? I mean I thought he was possibly the most mendacious politician in my lifetime a long time ago, but "tells it like it is" has consistently been one of his biggest appeals. I had a coworker who said to me on election day "You know, for everything people say about Donald Trump? At least he's honest." Dude's a Muslim immigrant with a pre-existing condition, he has every reason to dislike Trump but still somehow came out of the election season thinking "this guy, he wouldn't lie to me."
I don't want to talk about politics at work because I figure it'll just complicate getting along with coworkers, so I didn't say anything. But it does make me think I should never, ever assume it's obvious to everyone that Trump is a liar.
|
On May 07 2017 08:24 NewSunshine wrote:
Why is it that a man working in entertainment has what feels like an actual news program, and our so-called news media feels like a joke in its attempt to feel like entertainment? It just feels so weird when I wonder what series of events must transpire for this switch to take place.
To me they seem mostly identical when they try to do each other's jobs. It's very bad because it's made the news not good, the comedy not funny, and people fatigued from hacks everywhere pretending they know things shouting into a camera and expecting me to care or believe them.
|
On May 07 2017 13:35 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2017 10:16 Doodsmack wrote:
It will be an absolute firestorm for Trump and republicans if even one person is indicted in the trump Russia matter. And it could even be for a relatively low level offense like failing to register as a foreign agent. No it won't, the Russia thing won't transpire to jack shit. The same way all of Trump's scandals don't phase him, he's rolling along as if nothing is wrong at like 40% approval rating lol. The only way the Russia thing will have any effect is if Trump was directly involved with the hacks and gave putin a thumbs up signal before the dump of emails.
If nothing else it will be a media firestorm, which does affect trump and republicans in congress. It harms their agenda and is very distracting. It won't be a small thing.
|
Golf writer James Dodson claims Eric Trump told him in 2014 that all the funding for Trump golf courses comes from Russia while the two were at one of the family's clubs.
...
"He said, 'Well, we don't rely on American banks. We have all the funding we need out of Russia.' I said, 'Really?' And he said, 'Oh, yeah. We've got some guys that really, really love golf, and they're really invested in our programs. We just go there all the time.' Now that was three years ago, so it was pretty interesting."
...
In a 2008 interview, Donald Trump Jr. called Russia a "really scary place" when discussing the Trump Organization's potential investments in the country.
"After spending half a dozen trips to Russia in the last 18 months, several buyers have been attracted to our projects there and everything associated therewith. But it is definitely not an issue of being able to find a deal – but an issue of 'Will I ever see my money back out of that deal or can I actually trust the person I am doing the deal with?' As much as we want to take our business over there, Russia is just a different world," he said.
www.washingtonexaminer.com
|
Out of curiosity, from a pragmatic perspective, what's the point of establishing the fact that the Russian government and the Trump administration colluded during the presidential election? It's not like Trump will be impeached for it, and it's certainly not possible to replace him with any competent politician. So what if a few of Trump's appointees are forced to resign and possibly go to jail? They'll just be replaced with more morons, and the American people won't be any better off.
Granted, it's no longer a question of whether or not they worked together to make sure Trump got elected (it's common knowledge by now), but now it's a matter of how many times Trump's staff (and Trump himself) had secret conversations. But frankly, it's also common knowledge that Russia's influence wasn't the only thing that won the election for Trump (see: electoral college, voters' disillusionment of establishment politics, Bernie supporters feeling disenfranchised by the Democratic primary, conservative partisanship, FBI focus on Hillary's e-mails, people loving racists and perverts and reality television, media limelight and sensationalism of Trump, etc.).
From a theoretical standpoint, it's certainly good closure to say "We know for a fact that there was foreign interference with our election, and such a thing is bad" (although, let's be honest, the United States has basically set the precedent for interfering with the elections and leaderships of foreign countries). But who else cares? I'm sure that not a single Trump voter would wish to rescind his or her vote given the fact that Russia helped him win, and shouldn't those people be the ones we wish to influence? I hope that Trump and the Republican Party royally screw their constituents over the next four years to the point where they leave the party for good, but if that's going to happen, it'll be through a lack of healthcare and a lack of funding with other projects... not because of Russian collusion.
So what's the point of all this focus on Trump's ties to Russia? As the stories keep breaking over it, and other people feel traumatized, I doubt any Trump supporter will give a shit. What do we realistically hope to gain from it, given that the audience of Trump voters are already indifferent towards every other scummy thing Trump has done and said? Even if Trump voters believed the fact that collusion with Russia occurred, they almost certainly wouldn't care.
|
On May 08 2017 01:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Out of curiosity, from a pragmatic perspective, what's the point of establishing the fact that the Russian government and the Trump administration colluded during the presidential election? It's not like Trump will be impeached for it, and it's certainly not possible to replace him with any competent politician. So what if a few of Trump's appointees are forced to resign and possibly go to jail? They'll just be replaced with more morons, and the American people won't be any better off.
Granted, it's no longer a question of whether or not they worked together to make sure Trump got elected (it's common knowledge by now), but now it's a matter of how many times Trump's staff (and Trump himself) had secret conversations. But frankly, it's also common knowledge that Russia's influence wasn't the only thing that won the election for Trump (see: electoral college, voters' disillusionment of establishment politics, Bernie supporters feeling disenfranchised by the Democratic primary, conservative partisanship, FBI focus on Hillary's e-mails, people loving racists and perverts and reality television, media limelight and sensationalism of Trump, etc.).
From a theoretical standpoint, it's certainly good closure to say "We know for a fact that there was foreign interference with our election, and such a thing is bad" (although, let's be honest, the United States has basically set the precedent for interfering with the elections and leaderships of foreign countries). But who else cares? I'm sure that not a single Trump voter would wish to rescind his or her vote given the fact that Russia helped him win, and shouldn't those people be the ones we wish to influence? I hope that Trump and the Republican Party royally screw their constituents over the next four years to the point where they leave the party for good, but if that's going to happen, it'll be through a lack of healthcare and a lack of funding with other projects... not because of Russian collusion.
So what's the point of all this focus on Trump's ties to Russia? As the stories keep breaking over it, and other people feel traumatized, I doubt any Trump supporter will give a shit. What do we realistically hope to gain from it, given that the audience of Trump voters are already indifferent towards every other scummy thing Trump has done and said? Even if Trump voters believed the fact that collusion with Russia occurred, they almost certainly wouldn't care.
In a way it's a way to avoid having to look more deeply at the other issues that lost Democrats their seats, including the top one. A foreign devil is a nice, solid distraction that will allow them to convince themselves (if no one else) that Russia is responsible for all Democrat woes.
There is of course an element of trying to prevent foreign influence, but the attention afforded to this issue is clearly disproportionate to that goal. That requires an intelligence-led investigation, not a media circus.
|
It's already happening. I just spoke to a lifetime republican who is just frustrated with the GOP. Of course it starts off with healthcare, he even said so himself, he doesn't mind paying for some ones health, it's the welfare that people take advantage of, and that's what needs to be looked at. He's also mad at the fact at trumpcare, he's paying $600/mo for his current care, and if the new law passes, then it'll double or triple for him.
So yea people already getting mad.
|
On May 08 2017 01:42 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2017 01:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Out of curiosity, from a pragmatic perspective, what's the point of establishing the fact that the Russian government and the Trump administration colluded during the presidential election? It's not like Trump will be impeached for it, and it's certainly not possible to replace him with any competent politician. So what if a few of Trump's appointees are forced to resign and possibly go to jail? They'll just be replaced with more morons, and the American people won't be any better off.
Granted, it's no longer a question of whether or not they worked together to make sure Trump got elected (it's common knowledge by now), but now it's a matter of how many times Trump's staff (and Trump himself) had secret conversations. But frankly, it's also common knowledge that Russia's influence wasn't the only thing that won the election for Trump (see: electoral college, voters' disillusionment of establishment politics, Bernie supporters feeling disenfranchised by the Democratic primary, conservative partisanship, FBI focus on Hillary's e-mails, people loving racists and perverts and reality television, media limelight and sensationalism of Trump, etc.).
From a theoretical standpoint, it's certainly good closure to say "We know for a fact that there was foreign interference with our election, and such a thing is bad" (although, let's be honest, the United States has basically set the precedent for interfering with the elections and leaderships of foreign countries). But who else cares? I'm sure that not a single Trump voter would wish to rescind his or her vote given the fact that Russia helped him win, and shouldn't those people be the ones we wish to influence? I hope that Trump and the Republican Party royally screw their constituents over the next four years to the point where they leave the party for good, but if that's going to happen, it'll be through a lack of healthcare and a lack of funding with other projects... not because of Russian collusion.
So what's the point of all this focus on Trump's ties to Russia? As the stories keep breaking over it, and other people feel traumatized, I doubt any Trump supporter will give a shit. What do we realistically hope to gain from it, given that the audience of Trump voters are already indifferent towards every other scummy thing Trump has done and said? Even if Trump voters believed the fact that collusion with Russia occurred, they almost certainly wouldn't care. In a way it's a way to avoid having to look more deeply at the other issues that lost Democrats their seats, including the top one. A foreign devil is a nice, solid distraction that will allow them to convince themselves (if no one else) that Russia is responsible for all Democrat woes. There is of course an element of trying to prevent foreign influence, but the attention afforded to this issue is clearly disproportionate to that goal. That requires an intelligence-led investigation, not a media circus.
It's cynical (and often just petty deflection) to assume all inquiry or allegations about Trump's financial influences, especially with Russia, is simply about internal, American, partisan politics.
Which is why I, as one who was vehemently pointing the finger at Russia long ago, am happy to now let the cards fall where they may. Because simply the obscurity, and the facts we do have, are enough to ensure Trump's hands are relatively tied on the issue. I know some people in NATO, I know the good they do, and I know what kind of person Putin is and how much better off Russia could be when they move past their current regime. I feel these things quite deeply.
It sucks to think Russian-media, a steaming pile of shit that makes Fox News look good and decent in comparison, has managed to find its way into America's political discourse. That is the worst part of all this, the real damage, and I hope there is more effort to hold these sources accountable to their biases.
The silver-lining has been Trump. Because he's an idiot. Trump is so blatant with his biases. There was nothing subtle or subversive, he just came right out and said, "Putin is great, NATO sucks," like that would change things.
And I think that has been a wake-up call, to both political parties, that we're dealing with a different Russia then what we'd been accustomed to in the time between the Soviet-era and Putin. The connection between right-wing alternate-media and Russian mainstream media was always there, so I suppose their collusion was inevitable. And I'm glad its revealed itself, about as plainly as could be hoped for, as an ugly lying beast.
First step to fixing a problem is recognizing it exists, and for that reason, I'm happy with what's transpired on this front so far. I don't care about impeachment or imprisonment or indictment of Trump, Flynn, Manafort, whoever. To me, it's just about ensuring that what should be obvious is made obvious, despite the wailing deflections of Russian and right-wing media. I'm hopeful America can learn some lessons from this.
|
On May 08 2017 01:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Out of curiosity, from a pragmatic perspective, what's the point of establishing the fact that the Russian government and the Trump administration colluded during the presidential election? It's not like Trump will be impeached for it, and it's certainly not possible to replace him with any competent politician. So what if a few of Trump's appointees are forced to resign and possibly go to jail? They'll just be replaced with more morons, and the American people won't be any better off.
Granted, it's no longer a question of whether or not they worked together to make sure Trump got elected (it's common knowledge by now), but now it's a matter of how many times Trump's staff (and Trump himself) had secret conversations. But frankly, it's also common knowledge that Russia's influence wasn't the only thing that won the election for Trump (see: electoral college, voters' disillusionment of establishment politics, Bernie supporters feeling disenfranchised by the Democratic primary, conservative partisanship, FBI focus on Hillary's e-mails, people loving racists and perverts and reality television, media limelight and sensationalism of Trump, etc.).
From a theoretical standpoint, it's certainly good closure to say "We know for a fact that there was foreign interference with our election, and such a thing is bad" (although, let's be honest, the United States has basically set the precedent for interfering with the elections and leaderships of foreign countries). But who else cares? I'm sure that not a single Trump voter would wish to rescind his or her vote given the fact that Russia helped him win, and shouldn't those people be the ones we wish to influence? I hope that Trump and the Republican Party royally screw their constituents over the next four years to the point where they leave the party for good, but if that's going to happen, it'll be through a lack of healthcare and a lack of funding with other projects... not because of Russian collusion.
So what's the point of all this focus on Trump's ties to Russia? As the stories keep breaking over it, and other people feel traumatized, I doubt any Trump supporter will give a shit. What do we realistically hope to gain from it, given that the audience of Trump voters are already indifferent towards every other scummy thing Trump has done and said? Even if Trump voters believed the fact that collusion with Russia occurred, they almost certainly wouldn't care.
prosecuting people for malfeasancne would slightly discourage such behavior in the future.
and it is still possible to get trump replaced with someone better than he is, whihc isn't much of a standard.
imho getting criminals in jail is worthwhile on its own.
|
On May 08 2017 01:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Out of curiosity, from a pragmatic perspective, what's the point of establishing the fact that the Russian government and the Trump administration colluded during the presidential election? It's not like Trump will be impeached for it, and it's certainly not possible to replace him with any competent politician. So what if a few of Trump's appointees are forced to resign and possibly go to jail? They'll just be replaced with more morons, and the American people won't be any better off.
Granted, it's no longer a question of whether or not they worked together to make sure Trump got elected (it's common knowledge by now), but now it's a matter of how many times Trump's staff (and Trump himself) had secret conversations. But frankly, it's also common knowledge that Russia's influence wasn't the only thing that won the election for Trump (see: electoral college, voters' disillusionment of establishment politics, Bernie supporters feeling disenfranchised by the Democratic primary, conservative partisanship, FBI focus on Hillary's e-mails, people loving racists and perverts and reality television, media limelight and sensationalism of Trump, etc.).
From a theoretical standpoint, it's certainly good closure to say "We know for a fact that there was foreign interference with our election, and such a thing is bad" (although, let's be honest, the United States has basically set the precedent for interfering with the elections and leaderships of foreign countries). But who else cares? I'm sure that not a single Trump voter would wish to rescind his or her vote given the fact that Russia helped him win, and shouldn't those people be the ones we wish to influence? I hope that Trump and the Republican Party royally screw their constituents over the next four years to the point where they leave the party for good, but if that's going to happen, it'll be through a lack of healthcare and a lack of funding with other projects... not because of Russian collusion.
So what's the point of all this focus on Trump's ties to Russia? As the stories keep breaking over it, and other people feel traumatized, I doubt any Trump supporter will give a shit. What do we realistically hope to gain from it, given that the audience of Trump voters are already indifferent towards every other scummy thing Trump has done and said? Even if Trump voters believed the fact that collusion with Russia occurred, they almost certainly wouldn't care.
My understanding is that the FBI is investigating whether there was collusion, and it would be a crime if there was collusion. And so if Trump were found to have been involved, he would be charged with a crime and then, most likely, impeached. I am not sure what exactly the criminal charge would be.
|
On May 08 2017 01:42 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2017 01:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Out of curiosity, from a pragmatic perspective, what's the point of establishing the fact that the Russian government and the Trump administration colluded during the presidential election? It's not like Trump will be impeached for it, and it's certainly not possible to replace him with any competent politician. So what if a few of Trump's appointees are forced to resign and possibly go to jail? They'll just be replaced with more morons, and the American people won't be any better off.
Granted, it's no longer a question of whether or not they worked together to make sure Trump got elected (it's common knowledge by now), but now it's a matter of how many times Trump's staff (and Trump himself) had secret conversations. But frankly, it's also common knowledge that Russia's influence wasn't the only thing that won the election for Trump (see: electoral college, voters' disillusionment of establishment politics, Bernie supporters feeling disenfranchised by the Democratic primary, conservative partisanship, FBI focus on Hillary's e-mails, people loving racists and perverts and reality television, media limelight and sensationalism of Trump, etc.).
From a theoretical standpoint, it's certainly good closure to say "We know for a fact that there was foreign interference with our election, and such a thing is bad" (although, let's be honest, the United States has basically set the precedent for interfering with the elections and leaderships of foreign countries). But who else cares? I'm sure that not a single Trump voter would wish to rescind his or her vote given the fact that Russia helped him win, and shouldn't those people be the ones we wish to influence? I hope that Trump and the Republican Party royally screw their constituents over the next four years to the point where they leave the party for good, but if that's going to happen, it'll be through a lack of healthcare and a lack of funding with other projects... not because of Russian collusion.
So what's the point of all this focus on Trump's ties to Russia? As the stories keep breaking over it, and other people feel traumatized, I doubt any Trump supporter will give a shit. What do we realistically hope to gain from it, given that the audience of Trump voters are already indifferent towards every other scummy thing Trump has done and said? Even if Trump voters believed the fact that collusion with Russia occurred, they almost certainly wouldn't care. In a way it's a way to avoid having to look more deeply at the other issues that lost Democrats their seats, including the top one. A foreign devil is a nice, solid distraction that will allow them to convince themselves (if no one else) that Russia is responsible for all Democrat woes. There is of course an element of trying to prevent foreign influence, but the attention afforded to this issue is clearly disproportionate to that goal. That requires an intelligence-led investigation, not a media circus.
It's definitely this. They want "Russia hacked the election" to be more memorable than "Hillary lost to literally the worst presidential nominee in our lifetimes, possibly ever".
As if Democrats didn't lose 1000+ seats without Russia's help, or that the US doesn't regularly influence foreign elections. Glad to see more Democrats are starting to realize how out of touch this Russia fixation is.
|
I support the investigation if for no other reason than revenge for bitherism (with similar lasting effects). But mainly because there was actually enough suspicion within law enforcement/intelligence to warrant an investigation.
|
|
|
Bitches love them some golf. Also money laundering.
|
All of the millionares and billionares that stole things somehow during the breakup are having nightmares about putin not being on their good side and then knocking in their door in the middle of the night.
The least you can say in western countries is that we welcome foreign capital in for almost any reason they can get them.
|
I think democrats have spent enough time on the "Russia-Hacked-The-Election" train and they're getting nowhere.
It's time to focus on real issues imho and besides I kinda like Putin.... No wait, that was poutine, I'm a sucker for gravy! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
